Hope for Hillary's Florida delegates? FL lawsuit against the DNC gets new life.

[madfloridian]

Here is the background from last October when the suit was dismissed by a Tampa judge.

Tampa activist lawsuit against DNC to be appealed in Atlanta appeals court

TAMPA - The first legal challenge to the Democratic National Committee's refusal to seat Florida's delegates to the party's national convention next year was thrown out of federal court Friday.

Calling the matter "an intra-party dispute," U.S. District Judge Richard Lazzara concluded the arguments made by Tampa-based Democratic voter and political consultant Victor DiMaio contained no legal basis for challenging the national party. Lazzara wrote, "The Supreme Court has consistently recognized that national political parties have a constitutionally protected right to manage and conduct their own internal affairs, including the enforcement of delegate-selection rules and the decision as to which state delegates it will recognize … ."

The activist then said " this is only the first inning and first bite of the apple … ."

Now the case has been successfully appealed, and it will be given a hearing.

A federal appeals court agrees to hear arguments on a bid to make votes count.

Democrats may be focused on the upcoming Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania primaries to get a better idea of who their presidential nominee may be.

But a federal appeals court in Atlanta is giving them one more reason to keep at least a wandering eye on Florida.

The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has agreed to hear oral arguments from a Tampa man seeking to have Florida's Jan. 29 Democratic presidential preference primary votes count.

The decision is no indication of how the court views the merits of the lawsuit. But many suits are rejected on written pleadings alone, which was the case when the suit was filed in the lower court.

So now here we go.

I recently said there were two lawsuits and a Supreme Court hearing on the side of the DNC

Oopsy, guess I was wrong. Maybe Bill Nelson should appeal Nelson v Dean as well. He might win on appeal also.

Nelson v Dean was dismissed..tried to use civil rights issues.

If Hillary gets those delegates from Florida, if they count toward her getting the nomination....she will have lost all the respect I had for her. I have already lost lost what respect I had for Florida Democrats who lied all the way through this primary issue. They blamed it on the DNC, though they were in on it all the way with a vote of 115 to 1 for it.

I feel sick inside. I heard that this might be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. Anyone else see where this is going? Anyone see the implications for November?

I was right when I wrote this on January 29, when Hillary came to celebrate her Florida win.

I thnk Bill Nelson just declared the battle is beginning.

"In this primary, some even tried to silence our state," Nelson said as he endorsed Clinton from the stage Tuesday night. "Hillary Clinton will never let that happen."

]

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Clinton (second from left) thanks supporters with Congressman Bill Nelson of Florida, Congressman Alcee Hastings of Florida, Miami Mayor Manny Diaz and U.S. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-F.L.) (left-right) after polls closed at the Signature Grand in Davie, Florida on Tuesday, January 29, 2008.

[leftofcool]

1. Florida Dems didn't do this

It was the Dem leaders. Frankly the Democratic voters should have been asked, not just the leaders of the state party. The actual voters feel they have been disenfranchised because of what their state leaders did to them. Rules are rules, but the people should be asked, not the leaders and not the DNC. My suggestion, have a new vote.

Left of Cool

[madfloridian]

4. Bill Nelson said no revote.

He's the big boss.

If Hillary gets these delegates, I will lose any respect I had.

[Seeker30]

90. Of course you feel that way since she won Florida

[yewberry]

93. A little context:

madfloridian has been carefully documenting what's gone on in FL since last summer, long before the primary became a "Hillary vs Obama" fight.

Go ahead look up her journal. It's all there, and it has nothing to do with either candidate. Accusing her of posting analyses based on her choice of candidate is flat-out bullshit.

[madfloridian]

94. Thank you for that.

I have been talked to like I am a nut lately...I was called a loon and then stupid.

Kind words are nice.

:hi:

[yewberry]

97. I'm not a big fan of lies.

Or bullies.

Seriously, you've put a lot of effort into this topic for a long time now, and despite what some partisans might believe, this isn't a new subject. I travelled to NH last September, and I knew a helluva lot more about the subject than most NH Dems (who are nearly religious about politics) and that was because of you and your reports of local politics.

Pretending that opposing the machinations of the FL Dems is the same as opposing a Clinton nomination is just a convenient lie. You deserve an apology.

I wouldn't hold my breath, though.

[cali]

40. actually, it appears that FL voters don't feel so disenfranchised

I ust posted a new poll about it.

[leftofcool]

48. yep all 24% of them

That means just about 76% do feel disenfranchised.

[cali]

50. wrong.

try reading the poll.

[madfloridian]

You are dead wrong. Read and get your facts straight.

.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

79. RE: actually, it appears that FL voters don't feel so disenfranchised

Mark me down as disenfranchised.

[Johnny__Motown]

87. Then help vote the repugs out of your state offices, if they were not there this would not have

happened.

[madfloridian]

91. I don't let people get away with blaming the GOP for the vote.

The Democrats were on board all the way.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

[Florida22ndDistrict]

98. re: Then help vote the repugs out of your state offices

You fail to understand that the DNC were the ones who disenfranchised the voters. The state legislature broke the rules, not the voters of the state. The DNC should have been firm with our states Democratic leadership, but should not have punished the voters. I will vote against the party come November if this is not resolved soon.

[madfloridian]

2. I was right.

I thnk Bill Nelson just declared the battle is beginning.

"In this primary, some even tried to silence our state," Nelson said as he endorsed Clinton from the stage Tuesday night. "Hillary Clinton will never let that happen."

]

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Clinton (second from left) thanks supporters with Congressman Bill Nelson of Florida, Congressman Alcee Hastings of Florida, Miami Mayor Manny Diaz and U.S. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-F.L.) (left-right) after polls closed at the Signature Grand in Davie, Florida on Tuesday, January 29, 2008.

[SoFlaJet]

3. the good new is they won't even matter

madFla-hopefully this will all be over on Wednesday so we can concentrate on McCain as ONE PARTY of democrats

[madfloridian]

5. I feel sick. Do you realize what ongoing lawsuits will do to the process?

Maybe that is what they want.

I feel sick.

[Debi]

6. Ugh Mad - This is no longer about Clinton being President of the Untied States

it's about her being President of Florida (and not even that - President of those who WILL GET WHAT THEY WANT NO MATTER WHAT RULES THEY BREAK in Florida).

Again, I feel for the voters in Florida - none of this is their fault.

[madfloridian]

7. How do you have a clean nomination with lawsuits pending?

The people of Florida were not well-informed. But now, there has been time for them to check things out and know the truth. So if they are still in denial who did this....then I do blame them.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

[Dr.Phool]

46. A friend sent to the St. Pete Times today.

I have her permission to post it here.


I have sent this letter today to the editor of the St. Pete Times. It is time to set the record straight on this matter and prevent an election being "rigged" by, not the Republicans, but by perhaps our own DINOS..Democrats in name only(s). Democrats are supposed to stand for truth and obeyance to the laws and rules of our party and our country. I want my Party back! How about you? Fran




LETTER TO THE EDITOR: FLORIDA’S DELEGATES TO CONVENTION

February 27, 2008

Dear Sir:

I am beginning to see more and more letters asking that Florida’s delegates be seated at the National Democratic Convention and that their votes be counted. To clarify this matter, once and for all and, as a member of Hernando County Democratic Executive Committee and an elected Precinct Committeewoman, here are the true facts.

The rules governing the date(s) of our primary are in writing and very clearly written. It is so easy to place blame on Howard Dean, the head of our National Party, but why? Governor Dean has followed the rules to the letter and that is as it should be. When the Republican dominated State Legislature overwhelmingly voted to change/move up the primary date, our Florida State Chairwoman, Karen Thurman, was offered financial assistance by Governor Dean so that the Democrats could hold a caucus and thereby escape any penalties. This offer of assistance was turned down by our state party leader(s). Why? This would have left all our delegates intact and eligible to cast their votes at the Convention.

For many months, at many events she attended, Karen Thurman spoke of Hillary Clinton as our “next President”, a clear violation of the bylaws which state that we may not promote one candidate over another prior to the selection of our party’s nominee. At the State Convention, Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Shultz announced from the platform, “..our next President, Hillary Rodham Clinton” much to the dismay of many attendees who were supporting other candidates. Literally a hundred or more signs for Hillary went up around the room….thought the candidates had agreed not to campaign in Florida (I was turned down by Edwards campaign staff when I attempted to pay for signs for John Edwards because they said it would violate the “no campaigning” agreement). Yet here was definite campaigning for Hillary at our State Convention. Is she a woman of her word or not?

The result of all this, including the so fortunate fundraiser for Clinton held in Florida on Primary Day, was that most of our citizens knew little about the other candidates and the Clinton name recognition just about guaranteed a win for Hillary, which I personally believe, was the intent of our State Chairwoman who has consistently promoted ONLY Beltway insiders as opposed to Progressive Democrats seeking to take back our country from the corrupt administration under which we have suffered for seven long, long years. As for Michigan, I thought all candidates had agreed not to be on the ballot there, but there was Hillary…can you count this as a “win” when the only competition was Kucinich? I think not and find this a statement we should pay attention to regarding Hillary Clinton’s word and her character.

So please citizens of the could be great state of Florida, stop vilifying the guy(s) who play by the rules. We have had seven years of watching our Constitution and our laws violated over and over again by those currently in power. Do we now blame those among true Democrats who follow the rules and obey the laws? Following the Judas Goat leads to only one place, the slaughterhouse!

Respectfully,

Frances Earl

Chair-Democracy for America Tampa Bay North

[madfloridian]

102. "Karen Thurman spoke of Hillary Clinton as our “next President”

Thanks for sharing that letter I heard our chairwoman was doing that. Not proper at all.

[D23MIURG23]

82. By getting the necessary delegates to secure the nomination.

If Obama has the support of 2025 delegates including supers then it is over for Clinton regardless of Fla. As of right now the Fla delegates won't even close Obama's lead if my math is correct; CNN has Obama leading by 102 delegates and Clinton would decrease that by around 40 (based on my mental math allocation of Fla's 210 delegates by percentage 50% to Clinton and 33% to Obama) which still leaves her trailing by 60. The super delegates are likely to decide this competition anyway, and the fact that a clear Obama win would prevent a litigated and messy convention will provide an extra incentive for fence sitters to back Obama.

But this is a completely disgusting tactic for sure.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#FL

[SoFlaJet]

9. Look madfloridian

I have suspected for a while now-ever since Iowa in fact that all the Clintons are worrying about is themselves first and foremost and if anything they do, any damage they can incur TO Obama only helps their long term agenda of getting in power again-if not in '08 then in 2012-I am CONVINCED they actually WANT McCain to win in November so they can have another shot at it in the next cycle-I do NOT trust them, and articles I have read here yesterday confirm my suspicions and theory

[Debi]

13. I'm with you on this - even if I get shot down on tinfoilhat crap

It has always been about their being in power (executive/legislative and much more). Who lobbies? Who runs the party structure? Which political consultant hires what direct mail outlet? Better be a FOB or FOH or you're not 'IN'. Gore winning in 2000 would have ended that arrangement, Kerry winning in 2004 would have also. The sweep in 2006 (mostly w/out the help of Emmanuel and the DCCC) started the erosion of their power structure and an Obama Presidency will destroy it. (Even if Obama gets the nomination - if he fails to win the presidency in November the Clintons and their 'friends' can attempt to re-take the party and hold on to the power). The players in Washington have been the same people since January of 1993. Things need to change.

[SoFlaJet]

18. Agreed debi-and they will do and say anything

JUST LIKE SCUMBAG REPUBLICANS to futher their agendas-regardless of whether or not it helps or hurts democrats they do not care "so deeply" like that fucking phoney always tells us

[madfloridian]

20. It IS about them. That was what Florida's primary battle was about.

They can stop this and we can heal. Or they can go on and make things worse.

[Usrename]

38. The case won't be heard until March 17.

By that time the case might be withdrawn, just to keep from creating more animosity toward the Clintons.

In any event, cheer up, it won't have any impact on the candidates, no matter how the court rules. Hillary will concede before then.

[democrattotheend]

42. I hope you're wrong

I'm not ready to go so far as to accuse Clinton of being willing to sabotage Obama's chances in November to give herself another chance in 2012, because that's a pretty serious accusation to make without proof. But the thought has been nagging at me for a while.

I know Hillary threw John Kerry under the bus in 2006, and that probably had something to do with his decision to endorse Obama, along with the fact that he and Obama are pretty close in the Senate. But I can't help but think that if the Clintons had really done everything they could to help Kerry in 2004, wouldn't he be doing everything he could to help her now, or at least feel indebted enough to sit it out?

I know Bill Clinton campaigned for Kerry in 2004, but I can't help but think that he and Hillary didn't really want Kerry to win, because it would have meant at least 8 years until Hillary could run, unless she was going to challenge a sitting Democratic president. I'd like to think that the Clintons are team players who want a Democrat to win the White House no matter what, but unfortunately I'm jut not convinced that that is the case.

[juajen]

47. Oh, my goodness, the Clintons are so powerful! I just didn't know.

Considering this, I don't understand why they haven't KO'd BO and Mac and crowned themselves. Ya'll are just unbelievable!

[democrattotheend]

92. Who said anything about power?

I just said that I am not convinced the Clintons are team players, or that they did everything they could to help Kerry in 2004. What does that have to do with being powerful enough to crown themselves?

[madfloridian]

8. More...betcha Hillary will stay in until the appeal date. March 17

"Federal District Judge Richard A. Lazzara harshly dismissed the case in October without a hearing, saying the suit was deeply flawed. He said prior court rulings have made clear that political parties can set their own rules for choosing their presidential nominees. The primary went on with Democratic candidates banned by the DNC from campaigning in the state. Sen. Hillary Clinton handily won the popular vote, but gained no delegates, before Barack Obama went on a tear of primary victories in other states.

Now the appeals court is saying: Not so fast. It wants to hear more, after reading the written arguments in the case. Each side will get 30 minutes to argue its case on March 17.

Michael Steinberg, a Social Security lawyer and chairman of the Hillsborough County Executive Committee, represents DiMaio. He said the appeals court ruling could set a precedent. Other lawyers reached were not so sure."

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/28/State/Florida_primary_suit_.shtml

[mohc]

23. Things could get even worse if she drops out

which is a very real and likely possibility after next Tuesday. If Obama has the nomination locked up, I imagine there will be a new push to seat the delegates of both Florida and Michigan. With the delegates no longer of any consequence, Florida and Michigan can argue that including them will not harm the process, and will in turn be a show of reconciliation that allows the votes "to count". But seating the delegations in any manner other than by the rules, which would require a convention floor vote, will set a horrible precedent. If everyone were being reasonable, the issue would die down after the nomination was locked up and could be addressed at the convention, but the way the FDP has acted so far, I do not believe they will be taking the reasonable course.

[madfloridian]

25. I can assure you they do not intend to be reasonable.

.

[democrattotheend]

43. If Clinton drops out, Obama will probably seat the delegations

He himself said months ago, before Iowa, that the eventual nominee would probably want to seat them if it wouldn't alter the outcome. If we have a nominee going into the convention, then the Florida and Michigan problem becomes a non-issue.

[madfloridian]

44. Seat, not count. There is a difference.

They are blurring the line with all the lawsuits.

[Dr.Phool]

71. I thought Mike had more sense than that.

I guess I was wrong.

[madfloridian]

89. Read what he posted at The Buzz.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4809335&mesg_id=4815715

They are very proud this happened. It worries me, because it really doesn't make sense. :shrug:

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

10. Hmmmm... a lawsuit to change the rules after the fact

Seems vaguely familiar somehow. Remind me again, how did Bush get into office?

[elixir]

57. Technically, he stopped the recount. Did he blur the rules?

[4themind]

11. This could get ugly

I'm hoping this primary ends soon, at least for the sake of ANY democrat winning the white house in november.

[madfloridian]

12. I think Florida Dem leaders will keep pushing...I think it will get ugly.

.

[UALRBSofL]

14. Hey MadFloridian ! ! ! !

:hi: I know there have been several of us here where I live we got together and have been emailing and calling Nelson, Thurman, other FDP members, DNC, etc. to see what could be done to get our votes to count.

BTW, did you hear Crist might be McCain's running mate. I hope not. He's a pretty good governor, very moderate, and liked in Florida. I'd hate to lose him.

[madfloridian]

16. I have no respect left for her.

.

[UALRBSofL]

19. madfloridian you seem a little sensitive

But even though were on different sides of the fence we can still "play nice". :)

[madfloridian]

21. You are not funny, nor are you cute. The future of the nomination..

and the future of our party are being toyed with by her superdelegates and friends.

You keep on gloating. There is no winning for her on this issue.

[elixir]

59. I'm confused, how is that gloating? It is duly noted that you are royally pissed off

and there's nothing wrong with that but don't take it out on us. Being a Hillary supporter doesn't make us bad. You can hate Hillary all you want but we're all trying to make sense out of this race.

[madfloridian]

61. OK, that's it. You called me a "hillary hater"..Good LORD where did that term come from?

That sickens me.

That is not what the post is about.

Someone needs to quit using a first grade term.

[elixir]

64. Sorry, you don't have any respect for ... my bad.

[LiberalAndProud]

15. Another Supreme Court Selection ... excellent. (nt)

[madfloridian]

17. Hillary's campaign could stop this stuff.

They could stop the anger and the divisiveness. They could admit whose fault it was.

Even continuing this until March 17 is going to increase the anger and widen the divide.

[Avalux]

24. They won't. They're in all likelihood driving it.

Hillary's giant ego won't let her quit, even for the good of the party. She doesn't care.

[NoodleyAppendage]

54. There's doubt about her being behind the effort??? Really? n/t

J

[elixir]

60. I see what you're saying. She should drop out and let Obama go about his business becoming

president. Sorry, that's not how it works. This is a primary and she's a viable candidate.

[madfloridian]

62. That is NOT what I said.

I am sick of being misquoted, and you called me a "hillary hater" above.

Some people here need to grow up.

[elixir]

65. Well, what the heck are you saying?! You keep throwing out posts about how HRCs

about anger and divisiveness but deny your mad. So what is it?

[madfloridian]

69. I tried to pretend that you were trying to be fair...

but in cases where someone just throws stuff out and hope it sticks ....then there is one thing to do. Say good bye.

[Alhena]

22. The granting of oral argument means very little ...

it's an important and complex case, and federal appellate courts routinely grant oral argument in such cases.

[madfloridian]

26. There is a Supreme Court precedent already.

Did you see what Victor said? It was just the first bite of the apple.

[mythyc]

27. this doesn't matter one bit

even if Hillary gets her Florida and Michigan votes seated, Obama will still be ahead of her when all is said and done. today, with the two included, he'd be beating her by 44 pledged delegates. There is no way she'll close this margin even with a win in Ohio;; on a side note I see no way she'll win Texas. even if she pulls off a win of the popular vote, that would be by a slim margin that would make those delegates basically even, and he'd end up with a healthy lead once the caucuses are included. If you include superdelegates and FL/MI Hillary would hold a lead for the total convention so far, but by a mere 20 delegates total. That gap will either narrow or with much more likelihood swing in Obama's favor after March 4. Worst case scenario, it's a dead heat after March 4--- should that happen, I think we all agree that Barack will win both Wyoming and Mississippi------by healthy margins at least. Pennsylvania polls are already indicating that it's approaching a dead heat there as well, so when all is said and done, even with MI and FL included, he holds the edge.

Besides all that, they won't be counted. There's a Supreme Court precedent on the DNC's side, and time is on Obama's side such that were it to go that far, the convention has already come and he's already emerged as the healthy front runner... important to remember the he leads right now (w'out FL/MI) by 155 pledged delegates; with the supers included the lead's still 101 total. What's most amazing to me is that in a mere 2 and a half week's time he's even cut her super delegate lead in half.

Math---barring a self-destruction, even with FL/MI included, the nomination is Obama's to win or lose. Without FL and MI, it's his to win. In my opinion, those are the only 2 reasons Hillary's still in the race (and they're good reasons).

[madfloridian]

29. You don't think it matters? I think the party's future turns on stuff like this...

I think it matters greatly.

It shows it is about her, not about the party.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. It'll be over Tuesday.

Sin duda.

[madfloridian]

72. Not if the court hearing is on March 17.

.

[mythyc]

33. I only meant numbers-wise

check out my analysis... she cannot catch him unless he slips, slips hardcore. If we wins Texas she's basically mathematically eliminated: officially (unless, again, he slips).

I've always criticized her attempts to seat Florida and Michigan; I even wrote a online petition trying to stop this from happening. I didn't end up circulating it though, this back when I was young and foolish and didn't fully understood the complexities of the matter ;-) But by then momentum has swung so far in Obama's favor that it's become clear that on the level of the nomination this is a moot point.

on the level of ethics, of course it matters, A LOT. her breaking of her pledge about FL and MI was the first thing that turned me against her: I was an undecided voter up to that point but now favor Obama, passionately at that for more reasons than my reservations about Hillary. I also, for the record, think the DNC was stupid for handling it the way it did---they should have penalized them in half like the RNC did, or come up with something else ahead of time. I also, for the record, don't like Iowa, NW, NV, and SC's monopoly, and favor a small to medium state rotating schedule so things are more balanced and less in favor of those very limited demographics.

[madfloridian]

35. Thanks for the clarification. We mostly agree.

But there is a shadow hanging over all of it until March 17.

:hi:

[RiverStone]

36. Even if she won, not including appeals up the line...

I can't fathom her campaign would push this through as the PR effect alone would create even a bigger negative reaction in return.

Hopefully, Obama's delegate lead will be so compelling in a couple of weeks that it makes the math impossible for her, even with FLA. Of course, more SD's will need to switch sides...

Yes - it does matter greatly and if Hillary puts herself ahead of the party, she will destroy most if not all of her political capital for future leadership positions.

[madfloridian]

28. Florida is getting delegates organized.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/feb/26/online-a-look-at-the-congressional-level-are/

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080224/METRO/802240317/1020/NATION

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/clinton-plans-to-press-for-florida-and-michigan-delegates/

[UALRBSofL]

34. madfloridian, I thought I had mentioned to you a week or so ago

that we were having a caucus on march 1st to pick the delegates for the convention in august? I haven't heard that it has changed.

[ShaneGR]

31. Guess we should just move to the back of the bus now?

I'll be sure to do that right away masta! Do you have any idea how many Florida Dems there are? Also, good luck with the general election if you think you can talk down to Florida.

[madfloridian]

32. Turning a party dispute into a civil rights issue is just plain dirty pool.

Bill Nelson already tried that.

Bill Nelson lost his lawsuit against Dean....on the same civil rights issue Hillary is using now.

[democrattotheend]

45. We can win the general without Florida

My boss doesn't even think it's worth putting a lot of resources into. And if McCain picks Crist as his VP it will be essentially out of contention.

IMO, the best strategic plan is to make sure we hang onto all of the Kerry-Gore states, win back Iowa, and pick up either Missouri or Virginia. Of course, we will put a lot of resources into Ohio too, but there are ways to win without Ohio. I'd love to see the target list broadened, and force Republicans to spend money in places they weren't planning on, like Kansas, Indiana, and Montana. We probably won't win those states but we could conceivably scare the Republicans into spending money in them, the same way they do to us every time with New Jersey.

Not saying Florida won't be contested, but I certainly think we can win without it.

This is not to minimize the need to do something about the Florida delegates, though it's a pretty messy situation and I am not sure what the solution is. The best-case scenario is that either Clinton withdraws before the convention, or Obama manages to get a big enough delegate lead that the party can seat the Florida and Michigan delegates without it altering the outcome.

[yewberry]

95. I'd say that madfloridian has a pretty good idea

of how many FL Dems there are. She's one of them.

And "move to the back of the bus?" What, like the FL party didn't bully their way to the front of the bus, shoving aside everyone else in the country?

"Also, good luck with the general election if you think you can talk down to Florida."

Nice. So, y'all are going to vote McCain if we (you know, the rest of the country) don't let FL blackmail us into getting their way? Way to go. You must be so proud.

[mckeown1128]

37. Hillary's florida delegates? Did I miss something...

I am pretty sure that when people went into the voting booths they were told that they were NOT voting for delegates. How can the FL Democratic party justify TELLING FL Democratic voters who their delegates are going to represent... without an honest primary?

[smiley_glad_hands]

39. There are no Florida delegates.

They didn't follow the rules, so they lost them.

[madfloridian]

41. Well, the judge in Atlanta must think there are some.

I agree with you...there are no Florida delegates. But then once the courts are involved you just never know.

[onenote]

49. "successfully appealed"? Hardly

They have not successfully appealed. They've appealed and its been scheduled for oral argument, which isn't very surprising and does not indicate the outcome of the case (The overwhelming majority of appellate cases that I've been involved in during my 30 year legal career have had oral argument and the outcome has been to affirm the lower court more often than not).

[madfloridian]

56. Read my post below.

I posted the TBO article.

There was spin on this since the day it began.

Florida leaders need to step up and set the facts straight.

[flyarm]

51. The Primary change date was tagged on with the bill that got rid of the Fla Dre voting machines..

http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/


The Rules say you had to try to stop the primary move, but Democrats voted for the law. What gives?
Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority’s throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.

Who cares about the paper trail?
Floridians do. Our state has had far too many election controversies. A verifiable paper trail for elections is something Democrats have fought for since the election debacle of 2000. It is a groundbreaking change in a state that has no standardized voting and a long record of disastrous elections. In fact, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) continues to investigate Florida’s District 13 Congressional election in which touch-screen voting machines lost 18,000 ballots in the most Democratic part of the district - putting a Republican in Congress by less than 400 votes, instead of an accomplished Democratic woman who worked her way from bank teller to bank president before running for Congress.


***we in Florida have been punished for fighting for the very thing that many dems across the country have been fighting for..to get rid of the damn DRE voting machines. The repigs tagged the date change onto the bill to abolish the Dre voting machines in Florida.
No state dem legislator would have been left standning .. if they had voted against that.

[madfloridian]

55. Florida worked with the GOP for over a year to get the bill through.

They voted for it 115 to 1, and then used the paper ballots as an excuse.

[madfloridian]

52. More on the lawsuit.......

Since there is a long standing Supreme Court precedent, it just seems odd to me this appeal was successful.

And this is odd for sure:

What this tells me is they find this an interesting case," Steinberg said. He said the defendant, the Democratic National Committee, asked for a hearing along with himself and DiMaio.

Could it be the DNC is confident they are right? Maybe they know what is going on, that lawsuits will continue to affect the nomination.Florida superdelegates for Hillary have indicated they will continue to press for the delegates.

Maybe the DNC figured that Victor meant it when he said it was just the start of the battle...the first bite of the apple.

Tom Scarritt, a Tampa lawyer and prominent Democrat who backs Obama, acknowledged that the court's decision to grant a hearing in such a case was "sort of unusual."

But he said if the DNC also sought the hearing, it could mean the DNC "is so confident of their legal position they want to underline the decision," he said.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/feb/28/me-appeals-court-to-hear-state-primary-arguments/

DiMaio and Steinberg acknowledged their lawsuit could help New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton against Illinois Sen. Barack Obama.

Clinton won the Florida primary with a margin of 38 delegates, and argues those delegates should be seated. Obama says that would amount to changing rules in the middle of the game. But DiMaio and Steinberg denied they were trying to help either candidate. They noted that when they filed their lawsuit in August, the race looked very different.

"This is not for or against Hillary or Obama," Steinberg said. He said he and DiMaio are neutral in the primary, and will support whomever gets the nomination. Still, in a news release, they called their litigation a "landmark federal lawsuit that could determine the next president of the United States."

I'm with Tom Scarritt....it is really unusual.

And to Victor and Michael, it can not be both ways. If you want your lawsuit to determine the next president..then it might not work the way you think. Lawsuits are funny that way.

[NoodleyAppendage]

53. CHEATER. If Florida or Michigan delegates are appropriated to Hillary...I WILL QUIT THE PARTY.

Hillary Clinton AGREED ahead of time that Florida and Michigan delegates would NOT count, but now that her slimy back is against the wall...she's willing to CHEAT to get ahead.

Mark my words. If Hillary gets the Florida or Michigan delegates and sweeps the nomination, you will be witness to the DEMISE of the Democratic Party as we know it.

J

[boston bean]

67. What kind of dem are you to not stick by the dem party. Good riddance! nt

[WonderGrunion]

77. I wouldn't get that upset.

Hillary only won 50% of the vote in both Florida and Michigan. Even with 50% of the delegates from both states, she still won't be ahead of Obama.

I'm convinced this is no longer a fight worth fighting over.

[Ravy]

85. Actually, she made an agreement not to campaign in the states. nt

[Politicalboi]

88. I totally agree with you

We all despised it in 2000 and 2004 but since it's one of us well that's ok. Cheating is cheating no matter who does it.

[AtomicKitten]

58. By any means necessary ...

K&R

[madfloridian]

63. A suggestion about the term "Hillary hater"..

It is constantly used here.

Could I suggest reading what I wrote and not calling me first grade names? It does not speak well for maturity level.

[elixir]

66. I suggest you read my post accurately in which I said you "hate Hillary" not "Hillary hater"

a small but important difference. I apologized for the indescretion.

[Skarbrowe]

68. I guess it's tough when almost a million people vote for you and

you have to say sorry, you're state party leaders screwed up, so once again, your Florida vote doesn't count. I've talked to many people who wanted all kinds of different candidates here in Florida. At the time of this non-counting vote EVERYBODY knew who John Edwards, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were. They'd all been running for a year. So someone threw up some signs for Hillary. Obama actually had ads running on TV down here on CNN. I didn't care. No matter how you look at this, it IS a civil rights matter because for no fault of my own, I lost the ability for my vote to count. If they were serious about us not being able to vote, the damn ballots should have had ALL NAMES LEFT OFF. It was a ploy to get people to vote for that damn property tax cut. If people were coming out for a primary, they would get so many more people interested in coming to the polls. Seriously, they should have all names off the ballot in both Florida and Michigan. Then we would have had no one to vote for in the fourth largest state in the union. It would have been much better that way. Whose fault was the non-clarity on names being or not being on the ballots? The DNC? The States?

And why is anyone concerned now? Obama has this thing wrapped up. There will be riots in the streets if he doesn't get it.

I'm not supposed to be posting on this board. I just caught the Florida stuff and had to throw in my last two cents. Calm down people. Obama will be the nominee. I'm not sure I should vote for him down here, though, because it would be the first damn time my vote would be counted in over 7 years. If I'm out of Florida, Obama's got my vote.

[madfloridian]

70. Why am I concerned now? Because the courts are involved.

Because I remember the last time a court played a role here in Florida.

Because I know the Florida Democrats were in on it with the GOP from the beginning.

Because the continuation of the lawsuit, even though one candidate has won 11 states in a row...says something to me.

It says this is about more than what is good for the party.

In the OP I quoted the one who filed the lawsuit. He said it was just the beginning.

[Oilwellian]

73. I think we're witnessing the DLC & DNC vying for power over the party

Both state party leaders in Florida & Michigan are DLC and I've thought throughout this primary season that this is a battle for power over the Democratic party. Obama is NOT DLC, Hillary is, and throughout the Clinton presidency the DLC has made huge inroads into power positions within the Democratic party. Pelosi, Reid, Hoyer, Rahm, all of them controlling the party, acting & voting against Democratic principles. There's a reason why Obama is so organized and has become a powerful machine to go up against the Clinton monopoly. Obama is the DNC's candidate and Hillary is DLC. I for one am glad to see it happening now rather than this Fall.

Florida voters should be angry with their DLC leaders who refused money from the DNC that could have remedied the situation. Being angry with the national party is exactly what the DLC likes...dividing our party is what they do.

[truebrit71]

74. After next Tuesday it won't matter...HRC is going to lose BOTH states...

...I just hope she has the class to bow out gracefully...

[madfloridian]

75. "Both men said they are no “Johnny come latelies”

And "DiMaio said he was estactic."

http://www.wmnf.org/news_stories/5259

"Both men said they are no “Johnny come latelies” when it comes to the question of what to do with Florida, as well as Michigan’s delegates.
Their suit was filed last August, at a time when Hillary Clinton was considered the Democrat to beat for the nomination for president.

But events have changed since then, and Barack Obama now holds a lead over Clinton in the number of delegates. Sen. Clinton and her surrogates consistently say that part of her plan to overtake Obama includes getting the delegates from Florida and Michigan, even though critics and Obama supporters say that is tantamount to changing the rules in the middle of the game.

..."DNC Chairman Howard Dean has said that if the delegate question isn’t clear after the last primary in June, he will convene the Credentials Committee of the DNC to sort the mess out.

Steinberg, who just last month was elected as chairman of the Hillsborough County Democratic Executive Committee, said this lawsuit could solve Dean’s dilemma.

Among the proposals of what to do with Florida’s delegates is to evenly split them between Clinton and Obama, or have a do–over in the form of another election, perhaps as a Caucus. But there has been little enthusiasm for that, or for that matter, for the proposal of a mail-in vote offered two weeks ago by House Minority Leader Dan Gelber.

DiMaio says that won’t happen either."

Sounds like they get to decide what happens now?

Well, now, I guess they do. Nice to be in charge.

[madfloridian]

78. In fact, the tone of that article sounds like they think they know better...

than anyone. Better than the DNC. Taking things to court is quite powerful, really.

I hope it has good outcomes. When a court gets involved in Florida elections...there is little good as a rule.

:shrug: :shrug:

[Orangepeel]

76. I've got a compromise idea for Nelson -- seat the pledged delegates but not the superdelegates

So the pledged delegates can go but Nelson's dumb ass would have to stay home. Think he'd go for that? :sarcasm:

I think the best idea is for Florida and Michigan to hold caucuses now. But there is really is now fair way to resolve the situation.

[D23MIURG23]

80. Depending on the next month this may be immaterial

If my sense of the delegate situation is correct, Obama could win regardless of the status of Fla delegates.

[madfloridian]

103. I hope it is a clear win....no room for an ugly fight.

I have given up keeping track of the delegates, and I let others do it for me. :evilgrin:

[D23MIURG23]

105. Thats my hope as well.

A nasty summer long bar-brawl is our best hope of loosing in November.

[Myrina]

81. ... but if Obama wanted the delegates...

... Hillary and Co would be staunchly standing by the 'too late so sorry' meme.

Funny how much like Bush she is in that way - the laws are only fair when they're to her advantage, otherwise they need to be changed?


:shrug:

[parkeradison]

83. Florida delegates

If there's a way the Clintons will find it. Nobody does down and dirty better than the Clintons.

[madfloridian]

84. This is covered at The Buzz blog of the St. Pete Times...response by Michael Steinberg

in the comments. Michael is now chair of the Hillsborough County DEC. He mentions that he was not at the time. Our DEC chair requested by email that people withhold money from the DNC. I guess many others did as well. Now I guess some wonder, so he answered.

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2008/02/appellate-court.html

First the blog post itself:

"Vic DiMaio, a party activist in Hillsborough County, sued the Democratic National Committee over its decision to strip Florida of its delegates because its Jan. 29 primary was earlier than party rules allow.

Federal district court judge Richard A. Lazzara harshly dismissed the case in October, saying the suit was so flawed he wouldn't even let DiMaio amend it and try again. He said prior court rulings had made clear that political parties, as private entities, can set their own rules in selecting presidential candidates.

Now the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta is saying, not so fast. It wants to hear more after reading written pleadings. Federal appellate courts don't always take oral arguments.

"It doesn't tell me we're going to win," said Michael Steinberg, a Social Security lawyer who serves as chairman of the Hillsborough County Democratic Executive Committee and is respresenting DiMaio. "It tells me that they're going to make some sort of precedential ruling."

One of the comments questions about the lawsuit coming from the DEC chair.

Steinberg's response in the comments:

The lawsuit was filed in August, 2007. Both the DNC and the FDP were named. It asked the court to declare whether the actions of the DNC were constitutional. If they were, it asked the court to direct the FDP to comply with the DNC's directive to conduct an alternate primary election or caucus.

When the appeal was filed, all national polls indicated Clinton was a lock for the nomination.

The purpose of the lawsuit was to establish a precedent for future elections. We assumed that in this election, one candidate would be the presumed nominee and the Florida and Michigan delegates would be seated at the convention despite the earlier ruling of the DNC.

If this suit was filed last week, or the appeal was filed last week, your argument would have more merit, but both were filed long ago, well before I was elected chair of the HCDEC.

Hopefully the outcome of this case will not determine the Democratic nominee, but if it does, it was not initiated or appealed for that purpose.

Michael Steinberg

In my mind, I can not separate that the purpose was NOT to determine the nominee, especially now that it is going to be heard. In my mind, simple though it may be....there are party rules for doing that.

So if the lawsuit does determine the nominee in any way...it simply means to me that the nominee will not be a legitimate one in my mind. I have been angered by this all day.

There is a very important article at The Nation today. It goes into a lot of detail about Dean's contributions to the party. It is stuff those of us who supported him have always known, just haven't seen in writing.

What he has done in FL and MI is to try to restore when two of the largest states starting leapfrogging...for their own purposes...mostly selfish ones.

It took courage for him to take this stand, and it was necessary. It is probably what he will be remembered for unfondly, more so than the fact that the party organization into the 50 state strategy has brought big results...and is in part responsible for the large turnouts.

I don't think there is any way to gauge the true anger that will erupt if a ruling is made that determines the nominee by negating party rules. Florida was one of the first states to be under the control of the New Democrats and the Blue Dog Democrats. We still are. People like me are looked upon as insurgents, as fringe. Yet that is just a lie to keep us in our places.

This is not a wise move.

[Johnny__Motown]

86. Another Lawsuit about another screwed up Florida election to give us another dynasty, I can't wait.

If this works for her then she will be seen as Illegitimate and we will lose badly in November.

[Hillary_Hillary]

96. Keep it going. She won Florida fair and square.

[madfloridian]

101. No one said she didn't. That is NOT what this is about.

Maybe you did not read the background I posted.

[billyoc]

99. I love this. Keep it going, I say. Soon we'll need a fucking time machine to go back into the past

to vote in the Primary. :rofl:

[madfloridian]

100. I just did a search on various terms....nothing new about this at all.

It is an issue that could screw the nomination up, and not a word in the news.

I did a blog search, just a mention at FLA Politics.....but no opinion given.

I have an opinion....this is hurting our party.

[madfloridian]

104. Lawyer for the suit says appellate court wants to set "precedent"...but Supreme Court did already.

I find this so confusing. This is been turned from a party matter to a civil rights issue and spun like cotton candy.

From The Buzz, about a quarter down the page.

http://feeds.feedburner.com/tampabaycom/blogs/buzz

"A federal appeals court has agreed to hear oral arguments from a Hillsborough County man seeking to have Florida's Democratic presidential preference primary vote counted.

Vic DiMaio, a party activist in Hillsborough County, sued the Democratic National Committee over its decision to strip Florida of its delegates because its Jan. 29 primary was earlier than party rules allow.

Federal district court judge Richard A. Lazzara harshly dismissed the case in October, saying the suit was so flawed he wouldn't even let DiMaio amend it and try again. He said prior court rulings had made clear that political parties, as private entities, can set their own rules in selecting presidential candidates. Now the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta is saying, not so fast. It wants to hear more after reading written pleadings. Federal appellate courts don't always take oral arguments.

"It doesn't tell me we're going to win," said Michael Steinberg, a Social Security lawyer who serves as chairman of the Hillsborough County Democratic Executive Committee and is respresenting DiMaio. "It tells me that they're going to make some sort of precedential ruling."

There IS a precedential ruling. Why do we need another? People say "don't worry", it will be clear cut. It is never clear cut when Florida and the courts are involved. March 17, watch for it.