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Whats to fear about Mcclame...he was a bad pilot that got shot down...

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rndmprsn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 01:22 PM
Original message
Whats to fear about Mcclame...he was a bad pilot that got shot down...
then he gave up "secrets" while in enemy custody...oh wait that what the hard core RW says.

at the end of the day Mcclame is a paper tiger and an old calendar that needs to be thrown away...IMHO
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. So good pilots never get shot down?
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rawtribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Not as often as bad pilots.
Edited on Thu Feb-28-08 01:37 PM by rawtribe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

McCain was then commissioned an ensign, and spent two and a half years as a naval aviator in training at Naval Air Station Pensacola in Florida and Naval Air Station Corpus Christi in Texas.<20> He earned a reputation as a party man, as he drove a Corvette, dated an exotic dancer named "Marie the Flame of Florida", and, as he would later say, "generally misused my good health and youth."<11> He began as a subpar flier, with limited patience for studying aviation manuals.<21> During a practice run in Texas, his engine quit while landing, and his aircraft crashed into Corpus Christi Bay, though he escaped without major injuries.<21><20> He graduated from flight school in 1960,<22> and became a naval pilot of attack aircraft.

McCain was then stationed in A-1 Skyraider squadrons<23> on the aircraft carriers USS Intrepid and USS Enterprise,<24> in the Caribbean Sea and in several deployments to the Mediterranean Sea.<21> He was on alert duty on Enterprise when it imposed a blockade and quarantine of Cuba during the October 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.<25><22> His aviation skills improved, but he had another close call when he and his plane emerged intact from a collision with power lines, after flying too low over Spain.<21> He was rotated back to shore duty, serving as a flight instructor at Naval Air Station Meridian in Mississippi, where McCain Field was named for his grandfather.<24>
By 1964 he was in a relationship with Carol Shepp, a model originally from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; they had known each other at Annapolis and she had married and then divorced one of his classmates.<20><24> On July 3, 1965, McCain married Shepp in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.<19> McCain adopted her two children Doug and Andy,<26> who were five and three years old at the time;<24> he and Carol then had a daughter named Sidney in September 1966.<27><28><29>

In December 1965,<30> he had his third close call when a flameout over Norfolk, Virginia led to his ejecting safely, and his plane crashed.<21> McCain grew frustrated with his training role, and requested a combat assignment.<31> In December 1966, McCain was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal, flying A-4 Skyhawks with the VA-46 "Clansmen";<32><33> his service there began with tours in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean.<34> By this time, McCain's father had risen in the ranks, making rear admiral in 1958 and vice admiral in 1963.<35> In May 1967, his father was promoted to four-star admiral, and became Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Naval Forces, Europe, stationed in London.<5>
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Go repeat that at a bar frequented by naval aviators
I suspect you'll see some fear then.
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. I will say this;
every time Obama first talks about McCain he says something gracious about him, the thing is this-where was the proper respect for John Kerry from them
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. He Was A Noble War Hero And He Has My Respect For That. But He Would Make A Shitty President.
That's all that really matters.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Please limit your criticism of John McCain to his politics and not
his military service or POW history. I don't agree with his politics, but I respect his service to his country and hold nothing against him for anything he may have said or done while he was held and tortured as a POW. This behavior was bad when the Swiftboat Veterans pulled it on John Kerry and will be just as bad if Democrats try to pull this kind of stuff on John McCain.
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. uuuummmmmm.....WHOA
Blame McCain for a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

My dad was a young helicopter pilot in Vietnam and he was shot down so many times that he got an award for surviving it.

Don't be a jerk about his service.
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EmperorHasNoClothes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm sure you would never say anything under torture.
This is really low. I would expect this kind of crap from the right wing loonies, not on a Democratic message board.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. You seriously disgust me...
Edited on Thu Feb-28-08 02:25 PM by Mother Of Four
One of my great uncles was shot down, and was killed. He was an incredible Pilot. He was also one of my fathers Idols.

THIS the the BLURB they have about him. "South Vietnam, pre-1975: CHANGE OF CATEGORY FROM "DEAD (BNR)" TO "REMAINS NONRECOVERABLE"

I was a little girl, and I have a black and white photo of him. We couldn't even bury him.

Again, you disgust me.

(Edited to add: He as lost when my mother was pregnant with me...and we didn't find ANYTHING out until I was almost 5 about whether we would be able to bury him with his family. I was so angry when I wrote this I left that out)
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. Wow. I hope this gets locked and quick. McCain is a war hero.
Edited on Thu Feb-28-08 02:27 PM by Occam Bandage
He didn't give up critical information. And frankly, it takes serious balls to fucking refuse to be released from POW camp until other Americans were released first.

He'd be a shitty President, but attacking his service is a non-starter.







From wiki:

Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to give him medical care unless he gave them military information; they beat and interrogated him, but McCain only offered his name, rank, serial number, and date of birth.<57> Soon thinking he was near death, McCain said he would give them more information if taken to the hospital, hoping he could then put them off once he was treated.<59> A prison doctor came and said it was too late, as McCain was about to die anyway.<57> Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care<57> and announce his capture. At this point, two days after McCain's plane went down, that event and his status as a POW made the front pages of The New York Times<44> and The Washington Post.<60> Interrogation and beatings resumed in the hospital; McCain gave his ship's name, squadron's name, and the attack's intended target.<61> Further coerced to give the names of his squadron members, he supplied the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line.<62><61>

McCain spent six weeks in the Hoa Loa hospital, receiving marginal care.<52> He was interviewed by a French television reporter whose report was carried on CBS, and was observed by a variety of North Vietnamese, including the famous General Vo Nguyen Giap.<57> Many of the North Vietnamese observers assumed that he must be part of America's political-military-economic elite.<57> Now having lost 50 pounds, in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,<52> McCain was sent to a prisoner-of-war camp on the outskirts of Hanoi nicknamed "the Plantation"<63> in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week (one was Bud Day, a future Medal of Honor recipient); they nursed McCain and kept him alive.<64> In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.<57> In July 1968, McCain's father was named Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command (CINCPAC), stationed in Honolulu and commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater.<5> McCain was immediately offered a chance to return home early:<52> the North Vietnamese wanted a worldwide propaganda coup by appearing merciful, and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.<57> McCain turned down the offer of repatriation, due to the Code of Conduct principle of "first in, first out": he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.<65> McCain's refusal to be released was even remarked upon by North Vietnamese senior negotiator Le Duc Tho to U.S. envoy Averell Harriman during the ongoing Paris Peace Talks.<66>

In August of 1968, a program of vigorous torture methods began on McCain, using rope bindings into painful positions, and beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.<57><52> Teeth and bones were broken again, as was McCain's spirit; the beginning of a suicide attempt was stopped by guards.<52> After four days of this, McCain signed and taped<67> an anti-American propaganda "confession" that said, in part, "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life, thanks to the doctors."<52> He used stilted Communist jargon and ungrammatical language to signal that the statement was forced.<62> He felt then and always that he had dishonored his country, his family, his comrades and himself by his statement,<68> but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."<57> His injuries to this day have left him incapable of raising his arms above his head.<14> Two weeks later his captors tried to force him to sign a second statement, and this time, his will to resist restored, he refused.<57> He received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal.<69> Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions",<57> with many enduring even worse treatment than McCain.<70> However, on one occasion, a guard surreptitiously loosened McCain's painful rope bindings for a night; when months later the guard later saw McCain on Christmas Day, he stood next to McCain and silently drew a cross in the dirt with his foot<71> (decades later, McCain would relate this Good Samaritan story during his presidential campaigns, as a testament to faith and humanity<72><73>). On Christmas Eve 1968, a church service for the POWs was staged for photographers and film cameras; McCain defied North Vietnamese instructions to be quiet, speaking out details of his treatment then shouting "Fu-u-u-u-ck you, you son of a bitch!" and giving the finger whenever a camera was pointed at him.<74> McCain refused to meet with various anti-war peace groups coming to Hanoi, such as those led by David Dellinger, Tom Hayden, and Rennie Davis, not wanting to give either them or the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory based on his connection to his father.<57>
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Really beneath responding to, but.....
Edited on Thu Feb-28-08 02:32 PM by cliffordu
McCain is not fit to be President of the United States of America on a bunch of levels, but the ones you listed are really beneath this forum and DU in particular.

1. Outrun a SAM in the same kind of jet McCain was flying and then we'll talk.

2. I hung out with a couple intel guys during the war. Why don't they come to your house and play 'truth or dare' for a couple hours and see how many secrets you have left.


The first rule of torture is that everyone talks. Period.

For you to denigrate his military service is an act of cowardice. Absolute cowardice.



Edited to properly capitalize 'McCain'
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. There were few that were hated more by the North Vietnamese...
than those that would fly over and drop bombs on innocent children and women, unmercifully. They had a special hatred for people like McCain.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. His name is, "McCain," and he was a POW who deserves respect
UGH. I hated when it was done to Kerry...
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. It was disgusting when they did it to Kerry. It's disgusting now.
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rndmprsn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. you guys don't do irony huh...
"...oh wait that what the hard core RW says."

perhaps i should have used the SARCASM thingy, but i assumed we are all somewhat literate adults.

my opinion came in the last line...

"at the end of the day Mcclame is a paper tiger and an old calendar that needs to be thrown away...IMHO"

whatever...
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