Gosh, I hate to break in with reality, but you might want to listen to this:

[BeHereNow]

I met Jeremy Scahill recently-
Brilliant journalist and investigative reporter.

Here is his interview from Democracy Now today.
Just in case anyone is interested in a reality check about
our "Democratic" MIC/Blackwater Merc beholden candidates.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/28/jeremy_scahill_despite_anti_war

Flame away, can't wait to hear the rationalizations on this one.
In advance...

:hide: :popcorn: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
BHN

"Jeremy Scahill reports Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama will not “rule out” using private military companies like Blackwater Worldwide in Iraq. Obama also has no plans to sign on to legislation that seeks to ban the use of these forces in US war zones by January 2009. Despite their antiwar rhetoric, both Obama and Senator Hillary Clinton have adopted the congressional Democratic position that would leave open the option of keeping tens of thousands of US troops in Iraq for many years."

PS to Jeremy if you catch this thread-
My brother and Dad both loved their autographed copies of "Blackwater" which you so graciously signed
for me after your Studio City talk... Nice to meet you and have a smoke and talk. BHN

[BeHereNow]

1. Cheep-Cheep...crickets...

AND?

BHN

[The Anti-Bush]

21. Maybe you should post something that we DON'T have to download!

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to listen to anything I gotta download to my computer.

[BeHereNow]

65. Well HEAVEN forbid you READ the transcript available at the link...

I know too many words...might even need a dictionary!

Please return to posting one liners.
Sorry to have attempted to pass some
information on to you...

BHN

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

37. nor will HIllary "Denounce and Reject" Mark "Blackwater" Penn n/t

[BeHereNow]

2. A recommend, but NO COMMENT?

I repeat...:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
BHN

[Johnny__Motown]

3. Just gives McCain bumper sticker slogans on defense. Not feeding the repug trolls

Do you really want McCain to win just so this will be denounced, or rejected a half a year earlier?

[BeHereNow]

4. Did you listen to the interview? Methinks not... n/t

BHN

[sandnsea]

5. He can't rule it out

You can't entirely change the military structure in a year. And if he did rule it out, well then he'd have to add even more forces to the military, and he'd be criticized for that too.

This is where the anti-war people lose touch with reality and don't help anything in the process.

[BeHereNow]

6. Be HONEST. Did you LISTEN to the interview? Methinks not. N/T

BHN

[Indenturedebtor]

13. Ok hahaha

I hadn't but I just did.

I really hope that this Jeremy guy is wrong :mad:

I have to believe that Obama means what he says when he says we're going to withdraw.

[BeHereNow]

16. I commend you for your honesty and willingness to actually listen to the interview.

Kudos.
And no, Jeremy is not wrong.
Sorry.
BHN

[sandnsea]

24. Yes I did

What's your point? He can't rule these companies out without replacing them with new troops or a different strategy.

[Indenturedebtor]

7. True true

But if we pull out of Iraq and redeploy to Afghanistan perhaps this won't be necessary?

Truth be told you cannot win a GE or a war by saying you will throw pansies at the enemy. Our military has been devastated by Bushco and their supporting cast of Dem and Puke Congress Critters. Withdraw from Iraq, Redploy to Afghanistan, finish Afghanistan, withdraw, rebuild, destroy Blackwater.

[BeHereNow]

9. Did you listen to the interview? Methinks not... n/t

BHN

[Leopolds Ghost]

22. The anti-war people? Who isn't?

Aren't we all anti-war except for the pro-war foreign policy Dems who want to keep bases in Iraq?

[sandnsea]

27. Some people are 100% against all war

Others see differences in necessary wars. Iraq, in itself, has nothing to do with the decisions about companies like Blackwater and DynCorp.

[BeHereNow]

67. Iraq has nothing to do with the decisions about Mercs? You are joking, right?

Are you familiar with the history of Blackwater?
Please read Scahill's book.

BHN

[LWolf]

58. Well, there's claiming to be anti-war, and then there's walking the talk.

Does an anti-war dem support or vote for a pro-war dem who wants to keep bases in Iraq?

[BeHereNow]

66. You noticed that too, huh?

"Anti-war people."

Hmmm. Am I on DU or did I get lost on the "Internets."

BHN

[Independent-Voter]

60. Indeed - the military has been downsized during GHWB, Clinton, and Bush II. I'm no fan of Blackwate

but, the US is in no position to go back to doing the grunt work of meals, cleaning, laundry, etc overnight. Blackwater should be banned ASAP in any case. Most of their missions at this point are ferrying VIP's that have no business being in the area for photo ops.

[rug]

73. I thought Obama had "the antiwar people".

[eridani]

8. *cough* Mark Penn *cough*

Blackwater is one of Penn's clients.

[BeHereNow]

10. Please DO elaborate for those who may have chosen to IGNORE this aspect!!!

:popcorn: :rofl:
BHN:thumbsup:

[eridani]

11. Some of Mark Penn's clients

Philip Morris
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Burson-Marsteller#Burson_Marsteller.2C_the_Tobacco_Indust ry_and_Campaigns_on_Secondhand_Smoke

Entergy Nuclear and its little problem with their cooling towers collapsing on their nuclear power plant in Vermont
http://lisarainwater.com/lisar/Media_files/(Un)Safe,%20(Un)Secure,%20and%20(Not)Vital_%20Marketing%20a%20Nuclear%20Power%20Plant.pdf

Three-Mile Island 1979 accident
http://archive.corporatewatch.org/magazine/issue2/cw2f2.html

Union Carbide and its Bhopal chemical disaster in India 20 years ago
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2003/01/09/bhopl.DTL&type=printable

The government of Saudi Arabia three days after 9/11, embarrassed by the hijackers being mostly Saudi
http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/2001Q4/end_terror.html

Former Romanian dictator Nicolai Ceausescu
http://home.intekom.com/tm_info/ge_bm.htm

The military junta that overthrew the government of Argentina in 1976
http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/04/26/reviews/980426.26rosenbt.html?_r=1=slogin

The government of Indonesia, perpetrators of genocide in East Timor
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pilger_John/Arms_Generals_DV.html

Their newest marquee public relations client--Blackwater mercenaries
http://www.prwatch.org/taxonomy/term/104

And don't forget that Burson-Marsteller has long bragged about its successful tactics for countering union organizing
http://workingcalifornians.com/tags/mark_penn

Also the poison toy Aquadots folks

[BeHereNow]

14. Jeremy, is that you?

Heh-heh...

You left out the REALLY important connection...
BHN

[The Anti-Bush]

18. Don't forget, his company is running McCain's campaign too!

[wiggs]

12. The article says Obama was a leading critic of unaccountable private military

contractors. Correct? So he's concerned about the issue, and clearly wants to change things so that companies like Blackwater operate under the law. Your summary omits that. He doesn't rule it out...but that certainly doesn't mean he would use them as this criminal administration has either.

Also...The range of choices on private contractors does not boil down to either 1) total condemnation or 2) full abuse like what we've seen the last 5 years. Boiling issues down to simplified black and white choices is not reality...it's political manipulation that RWrs are good at.

Further the article does not at all clarify the legislation that Obama "has no plans to sign on to...". Is there pending legislation? Or is there no legislation yet and he of course CAN'T sign on to it. Or has he simply not made up his mind and has no plan to sign on OR not sign on?

I'd say your summary and the article raise questions but by no means are they the "gotcha" that so many are looking for...at this time.

[BeHereNow]

15. Keep watching...

BHN

[BeHereNow]

17. Gotta take the Jindo for a spin- I'll be back.

BHN

[wiggs]

19. The article also says....

...." I mean, in fairness, though, Barack Obama, more than Hillary Clinton and certainly more than John McCain (who’s talking about having troops in Iraq for a hundred years) Obama is talking about trying to increase the UN presence in Iraq."

..."He’s trying to bring in regional countries. I mean, he has a pretty serious diplomatic plan for Iraq."

..."I think the reality is that neither Barack Obama nor Hillary Clinton are actually going to be in the business of permanently ending the US occupation of Iraq. That’s a deadly serious issue, and it needs to be front and center on this campaign."

..."They say that US personnel are going to remain in the country to protect diplomats and other US officials in the country. And we’ve already talked a bit about that with Obama . Hillary Clinton appears to be taking the same approach on that."

The brackets are mine. The article is critical of both Obama and Hillary on some things, mostly the same things like increasing the size of the military overall, keeping the embassy, and keeping a presence in Iraq of some sort. It is silent on Hillary's take on private military companies.

[Leopolds Ghost]

25. Isn't keeping a presence in Iraq a legitimization of our illegal invasion?

Especially if the stated rationale is to secure US-owned strategic oil reserves?

(Intended to be sold off by the Maliki regime, but not really since the
Bush admin is making more money under the table -- the Maliki regime is
a wholly owned subsidiary of Bushco; Exxon is not.))

[wiggs]

32. Hey...I personally think we ought to get out now. I buy the CIA assessment that our

presence contributes to instability. I believe we are illegally occupying a country against the will of their people. I believe that we will never be able to repay the Iraq people for the devastation, death, loss of cultural treasures, tragic suffering, humiliation, destruction of infrastructure that we've caused.

I believe we built permanent embassies and called them temporary and I'm sure we're there for oil and for the enrichment of favored corporations and for sheer exercise of power and arrogance.

But the OP was trying to create differences between Obama and Clinton that don't really exist to the extent inferred.

In more specific answer to your question...no: keeping a presence in Iraq for a period of time after 2008 is not necessarily a legitimization of our illegal invasion. The blame must be placed on the Bush administration and the republicans and democrats that rubber stamped his policies. It must be made clear that Bush completely screwed up and that we will do the right thing but it may take a little time. The differences between America 2001 to 2009 and the America with a democratic president must be emphasized and that the country is in the hands of adults again...this shouldn't be hard to do. There's a lot of blame to be cast on the republicans and I hope the opposition party is up to it because their success depends on it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

20. No comment. n/t

[Radical Activist]

23. So you think we should ignore Obama's actual record in favor of what an unnamed adviser maybe said?

There are a lot of these stories lately about what supposedly is said by this or that top adviser who is never named. I'll believe it when it comes from the horses mouth.

When I read the interview I was happy to learn about the legislation Obama introduced to curb Blackwater. Here we have someone doing the right thing but some people are eager to find a reason to attack, attack, attack if he doesn't meet a purity test. Why do we on the left always have to shoot our own?

[Leopolds Ghost]

26. See my above post.

Kerry repudiated permanent bases in Iraq,

for which he was character assassinated as an unacceptable liberal.

Obama and Clinton specifically envision permanent bases in Iraq.

[BeHereNow]

34. Somebody else GETS IT!!!

BHN kisses for you.
BHN

[Radical Activist]

39. So there's pressure

to keep bases there. and... Is that your only point?

I'm still waiting to hear from Obama about what he thinks. We have bases all over the world. How many and what they're being used for is more important to me.

[BeHereNow]

43. What are the bases being used for? ARE YOU KIDDING?

Corporate US Multi-national military backed hegemonic domination-
that's what.
You "cool" with that?
The suppression and terror of other sovereign nations
so that you can buy cheap shit at Walmart?

If so, then guess what-
you deserve this government and the
impending and deliberate destruction of
your country.

God damn, I can't believe this place sometimes.

THE IGNORANCE IS
ASTOUNDING.
BHN

[Radical Activist]

45. Oh Jesus

Calm down.
Yes, I know what the war was about.
We have military bases in Germany. Should shutting them down be the top priority of fighting US global domination? What's happening in Iraq, the actions of our military, and the policies of Obama are a lot more important and are much bigger questions than whether we have a guarded embassy.

[BeHereNow]

46. And you, my dear, have just become my poster child for

People get the government they deserve.
I repeat. The IGNORANCE, and not yours specifically,
is ASTOUNDING.
May I suggest you put me on ignore now?
As I can assure you, you will not llike anything more
I have to say.

BHN

[Radical Activist]

47. No response huh?

In five years if the US has one base in Iraq with a few hundred troops, will that be the most awful thing in the world?
You seem like someone who is eager to be disappointed.

[BeHereNow]

48. Well, by your latest post, I see you have NOT listened to the interview.

Get back to me when you have and then we can have a
mutually INFORMED discussion.

BHN

[Radical Activist]

49. The interview didn't sound very informed when it comes to Obama.

There was a lot of speculation and conjecture largely based on an unnamed source. All told by someone who is probably as eager to look for the worst case scenario with Obama as you are. Why assume that being open to the possibility of some bases means a full scale indefinite occupation?

[BeHereNow]

50. I rest my case.

People get the government they deserve, indeed.
Unfortunately, they will take the rest of us with them
in the spiral to hell.

BHN

[Radical Activist]

51. What case? You haven't made an argument in 6 posts.

Just the overblown histrionics of a 13 year old girl. "Oh my gosh!"

The fact that all you can do is post the same line three times without any kind of argument tells me that your thinking is shallow. I'm sorry I gave you the benefit of the doubt and tried to engage you in a conversation that you're obviously incapable of handling.

[Why Syzygy]

52. Thank you.

The drama overload was an interesting scene.

[Why Syzygy]

40. I didn't believe Kerry tho. n/t

[Major Hogwash]

41. Naw, I don't think so.

Specifically the envision part.

[emilyg]

28. k/r

[Armstead]

29. We'll basically have a choice of....

Worst Johnny Mac

Bad Hillary

Somewhat Bad Obama

on this.

It'll be up to the people to pressure Barak or Hillary to actually walk their talk on withdrawing if they get elected.

[BeHereNow]

35. Oh, and all the pressuring we've done so far has changed SO much!

Good thing we won the majority in 2006, eh?
BIg changes, NOT!

BHN

[Political Heretic]

30. He remains the best choice.

And that's really all that matters.

[Cheeseburger Walrus]

31. Yawn... It doesn't matter who wins...

We will always have a presence in Iraq.



We have permanent bases already and currently being built NOW.

[BeHereNow]

33. And as Mr. Scahill points out, the LARGEST embassy in the history of the world.

Guarded by mercs, naturally.

BHN

[boppers]

36. Voting and making decisions based on ideals is a tad more vacuous...

Than voting and making decisions based on one's options.

Obama generally won't "rule out" things that may actually be successful, viable, or otherwise forward US policy, regardless of some McCarthy-era kind of loyalty pledge for, or against, some position.

That being said, anybody who refuses to use "private contractors", as a matter of idealism, has absolutely no idea whatsoever how our current military and intelligence systems work. None.

The naivety is nothing short of breathtaking.

Anybody who honestly thinks that "private contractors" aren't a core part of the system needs to look at the "private" company of "Brewster Jennings & Associates".

This is how we've played the game since, well, always. Mercenaries, privateers, and other "hired warriors" have been part of human history since we started recording human history, and likely for a long time before then.

[BeHereNow]

38. Well that justifies everything.

Thank you for your vote to continue the status quo that
will lead this country to ruin!
Nice to know there is an opposition out there!
Carry on...
BHN

[Why Syzygy]

42. Is it better than a draft?

I think so. My ideal is to abandon the entire fiasco. No one is going to do that.

[BeHereNow]

44. Oh yes, spending all our tax dollars on unaccountable thugs is a GREAT IDEA

Heaven FORBID the American people stop shopping and
come to face with the horrors being done in their names.
Much better to pay some thugs off so we don't have to think about it.
Good God, is there now an "I'm FUCKING IGNORANT beyond belief" virus on the loose?

BHN

[pnwmom]

53. Better to spend it there than on a draft.

The reason we are using Blackwater is because our all-volunteer army isn't big enough. Neither candidate can promise to pull out Blackwater except as part of a careful, logical plan to pull out all our troops.

[boppers]

54. The american people don't care.

They haven't cared since we used privateers to make this country over 200 years ago.

Oh, and ignorance is not the same as apathy.

[boppers]

55. I'm not sure you had a point in there...

"continue the status quo that will lead this country to ruin!" is pretty ancient, did you have specifics that relate to using "private" intel fronts, or contractors or something?

[BeHereNow]

68. Study history- the fall of Roman empire would be a good start.

Our public infrastructure is falling apart-
as are our social services and educational system.
Why? Because there is no money or will within
our government to fix them.
But we are spending HOW many BILLIONS of dollars
on private contractors in another country because????

BHN

[Laelth]

56. Good politicians keep their options open.

Barack Obama is showing political sense and savvy once again.

For shame!

I don't like the private security industry any more than I like insurance companies, but I know that it would be foolish to abolish them with the stroke of a pen. And promising to abolish them would be equally foolish. Obama's response was responsible and honest.

I give him credit for that.

:dem:

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--spelling.

[LWolf]

57. I've never thought otherwise.

But I'll join you in viewing all the rationalizations. Let's see; before I even read a single response, I'll predict:

Many responders will attack the messenger when they can't debunk the message.

:popcorn:

[SammyWinstonJack]

62. Many responders will attack the messenger because they support the message.

[BeHereNow]

70. Sort of reminds you of Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly, doesn't it?

"Shut up, shut up shut up!!!"
"Cut his microphone!!!"

"Neener-neener-neener..."
they cried with their hands over their ears,
"We can't hear you!"

BHN

[SammyWinstonJack]

72. Yes it does.

[cooolandrew]

59. ll candidates were in the race Barack rated the smallest contiributions by blackwater they ...

donate to all candidates so they can stake this calim. You notice he is rated 4th in the list of candidates still in the race for blackwater contributions. Huckabee has spoke against war and has a trickle of money you can be sure Obama gets very little and his advisors have said the contractors are out in 09. NEXT !!``

[mmonk]

61. The best candidates didn't make it and that's no real secret

to informed people. In my opinion we have two elections to pick the candidate that will do less damage. That is why I've picked Obama for both.

[0007]

63. A little jyoti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8

[BeHereNow]

69. EXCELLENT video~~~ Thank you for posting it!

How on EARTH can any one defend this shadow private corporatist
military???????????????

That's right PRIVATE, paid for with OUR tax dollars.

BHN

[KoKo]

64. Thanks...will check it out...K&R!

[BeHereNow]

71. Shameless kick for "Change."

BHN

[Bushwick Bill]

74. YES! Query for you...

Which candidate is less of a CFR/PNAC lite/banking/AIPAC/ military industrial consortium puppet. I initially was very open, acknowledging that at first blush, Hillary is the puppet, but I am open to hearing the same argument about Barack. What say the DU experts?...

[BeHereNow]

75. Let's put it this way-

Unless the "CFR/PNAC lite/banking/AIPAC/ military industrial consortium" gives the nod-
you don't even get past the starting gate in an election that matters.
BHN
On edit- yes, I will vote because it is my right.
Do I expect it to count or matter?
That's another story.