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Mining the Gender Gap for Answers: Is it Hillary, or her gender?

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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:24 AM
Original message
Mining the Gender Gap for Answers: Is it Hillary, or her gender?
NYT: Political Memo
Mining the Gender Gap for Answers
By ROBIN TONER
Published: March 2, 2008

....Perhaps, some strategists suggest, this gender gap is more about women’s loyalty to Mrs. Clinton than about men’s reluctance to vote for a woman. By this argument, men are responding in droves to the broad appeal of Mr. Obama — the promise of change over experience — while women are hanging back in gender solidarity. “If I were betting, the difference is much more driven by women being more sympathetic and connected to her,” said Geoffrey Garin, a Democratic pollster.

But Kathleen Dolan, a professor of political science and an expert on women in politics at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, argues that the visceral reaction of many men to Mrs. Clinton suggests that something more is at work. “You could say men are just really captivated by Obama,” Ms. Dolan said. “But I’m not willing to say that’s what it is.” Ms. Dolan noted that any Internet search of images of Mrs. Clinton quickly summoned “all sorts of visceral and emotional reactions to women, but attached to her” — like Mrs. Clinton in full attire as the Wicked Witch of the West. Ms. Dolan also noted that gender stereotypes were among the “most ingrained,” and argued that much of the news coverage — including whether Mrs. Clinton was too tough and whether she was crying on cue — played off of those stereotypes.

Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center, said that Mrs. Clinton clearly had a “likability” problem among some men that runs across party lines. For example, a recent Pew poll found that 67 percent of the Republican men (but only 54 percent of the Republican women) found Mrs. Clinton not likable personally; similarly, 43 percent of the independent men (but only 29 percent of the independent women) felt that way. “A lot of men just don’t like her,” Mr. Kohut said. “And that gets us back to the argument, is it something about her, or is it her gender?” Mr. Kohut says he thinks “it has to do with the way men react to Hillary,” not women candidates in general.

But Ms. Dolan wonders how people separate the candidate from the woman. From Bill Clinton’s 1992 campaign on, she noted, Mrs. Clinton was confronted with a series of controversies around gender roles and stereotypes — from hairstyles to “co-presidencies” to “standing by her man” against charges of infidelity. “The notion that she is a Rorschach test for where we are on gender issues was true on Day 1, when we met her, and it’s absolutely true today,” Ms. Dolan said. “So when people say it’s just her, I don’t buy it.”

Proving any of these theories — like proving theories about the role of race — is problematic. But long after the details of the horse race are forgotten, scholars are likely to be debating this....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/us/politics/02memo.html?ref=todayspaper
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:35 AM
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1. I think the reason none of these theories can't be proven is because
it's a combination of all of them. Some still maintain that a woman shouldn't be a leader because they don't believe they are capable; some don't like her personality; and some don't like her because her name is Clinton. And one more thing, there are some older women who love Hillary because they believe this is the last chance they will have to see a woman President in the US in their lifetime! There are so many different reasons, and each group has strong feelings about their position.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. A really interesting view, napi -- reasons as different as each individual...
and maybe not even understood, and/or acknowledged, by themselves.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. Both, And Then Some.
Sexism is absolutely a component, as is her own mistakes, bad advice, the media, Obama's likeability, his being a fresh face regardless of who he is, caucus processes, bandwagon energy, and other factors.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. it is her gender


nt
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. She entered the campaign with a strong dislike factor and I don't
think that had anything to do with being a woman. I'm sure there are people who are sexist, but there must be at least as many who are racist. It's not like she's running against Beaver Cleaver.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Not with Democrats -- that is a lie fostered by St. Obama
Obama and Clinton both hold modest leads over McCain in a general election matchup; Obama has a 50% to 43% lead and Clinton holds a 50% to 45% edge. But Clinton draws more universal support among Democrats (89%) than does Obama (81%). Conversely, Obama leads McCain slightly among independents (49% to 43%), while McCain edges Clinton among this group by the same margin. There is no evidence that either Obama or Clinton attracts much support from Republicans.

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=1254
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I probably should ignore this, but why is it Hillary supporters are
constantly carping about how "Obamites" trash their candidate, yet when I post a statement that is in no way disrespectful to Hillary, you come back with "St. Obama?" If you can't respect the guy for anything else, at least give him a slight amount of respect for running one of the best campaigns in recent memory. I have heard the statement I posted from just about every source you can imagine - right, left, middle - but never from Obama. Of course, since I'm an "Obamite," you won't believe me.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. You stated Hillary has a "strong dislike factor"
Edited on Sun Mar-02-08 02:39 PM by DemGa
I showed you proof that is NOT true among Democrats. I also pointed out that Obama has capitalized on a perception whose origins are found in baseless right-wing smear.

I show this disrespect simply because Obama used those right-wing attacks against Hillary, period. Consider if a Dem candidate overtly capitalized on right-wing slander against Mr. Obama? Then maybe you will see.

So why ignore? You must be aware that Obama has used this to his gain, by characterizing Hillary as "polarizing and divisive" that she would "unite the opposition"? Obama uses the weapons of the opposition against a fellow Democrat -- he gets no respect from me.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. She does have a strong dislike factor - among both Democrats
and Republicans. I'm sorry to burst your bubble. If she didn't, she would probably already be the nominee.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Sorry, but I have proof
Edited on Sun Mar-02-08 03:07 PM by DemGa
"But Clinton draws more universal support among Democrats (89%) than does Obama (81%)"

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=1254

And you did not address Mr. Obama's use of right-wing slander to his gain. I understand this may be a hard truth, and I truly do have compassion for any Obama supporters who must face this fact. Because the simple fact is a movement based upon hate of someone has a philosophical flaw in its foundation -- and this does not bode well at all for the "movement."

Obama's supporters can go hold hands and form a "human chain"; but these gnawing truths will remain.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. That's an 8% difference. If many of us didn't dislike Hillary to begin
with, we wouldn't be supporting Obama. Hillary would have Obama's 81%. Their positions are almost identical and the contest has boiled down to a gut level like/dislike thing. I've just never, ever cared for her - it must have been the Tammy Wynette crack way back when.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
6. Gender of course
To put all this on Hillary alone is just plain silly -- and this is the very "divisiveness" of Hillary that St. obama has done his part to perpetuate (a treacherous act).

Here is the breakdown of male/female in the primaries thus far: the trends are pretty striking.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/primaries/exit-polls/topics/sex/d/
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. I would gladly vote for Ann Richards for president
God rest her soul... Hillary - no way. She badly failed her first foreign policy test, the vote to allow * to go to war in Iraq. Her badly managed campaign is only the most recent evidence that she's NOT ready from day one.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. Both and She's Still Standing!
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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
10. it is her. all her.

get a woman running without hrcs baggage/persona/politics, and there is little 'sexism problem' anymore!
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Medusa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. For me, it's Hillary.
I have zero problem with a woman president. I'm a female after all. My problem is with THAT female.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. I do not support Hillary Clinton IN SPITE of her gender.
I'd love to suppport a female for President - that would make me so happy! But I can not in good conscience support someone just because they are female and that's the only reason I'd be supporting her.
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. White men overwhelmingly support Obama. Makes you think.
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johnnydrama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. what would a poll here say
about who people would want to be President Barbara Boxer or Obama.

That'll prove that it has nothing do with with what sex Hillary Clinton is.
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kdpeters Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
20. For me, it's Hillary. Her gender is actually one of her few positives
I'd love to see a woman elected POTUS. I think Obama's race as well as Clinton's gender are both strong positives for each of them. It's time the Presidency started actually representing America. I think for a lot of Democratic men, her gender is a positive factor but not enough to make us want to vote for Hillary Clinton even though she is a woman. It's not her gender. It's Hillary.

I'm sure that gender does play a role in skewing the results of Democratic women voting in her favor. At least among the Democratic demographic, I'd think her gender would be a positive among both the men and the women but a much stronger positive among the women and the men are actually looking past her gender in greater numbers than the women are which is why we are voting for Obama in greater numbers.
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