I’m done defending Hillary Clinton.

[iilana X]

Although I decided early to vote for Barack Obama, I’m one of those Democrats who used to be thrilled to know that losing would mean having Hillary Clinton as a second choice. It was a no lose situation. Either way we had a great candidate.

Barack Obama was my first choice because I liked his ideas and thought his experience from the streets of Chicago as a community advocate to his 11 years of legislative experience (not just in DC) was equal and probably more what we needed than eight years as the First Spouse and Hillary Clinton’s shorter time in elected office. (I’ve always been annoyed by the term “First Lady” and think it is sexist, but that’s just me.) You can argue the issues and we will not necessarily agree. That’s fine. We make our choices on what we research, understand and believe. Not everyone agrees on everything. That’s what choice is about.

What I haven’t liked and what I’ve fought about with people I know and meet is the stereotype of Hillary Clinton. Even though I decided for Obama, I still cringed at the stupidity of the attacks I’ve heard from ordinary people on the streets, in the grocery store, at restaurants, at work and so on. It outraged me that people hated this woman for no substantial reason whatsoever. It also put me on the defense because she was one of ours, a Democrat.

Let me make this clear, a primary is a battle. It is a way to test a candidate under fire and it is a way to determine how adept that candidate is at presenting her or his positions on the issues facing us as a nation. At the end of the process, one candidate will stand to represent us all in the election against the opposition, the real opposition: the party of George W. Bush.

Candidates will fight hard. They are charged with representing their positions to best advantage. There will be much debate over fine points and haggling over who is speaking with the greater clarity. That’s all fair. And both of our Democratic candidates have been proud advocates for what they believe best for our country. As a democrat, I was never prouder than I was…until the past several weeks.

The first thing that started a sinking in the pit of my stomach was what I heard on the news one night, that Hillary Clinton was comparing Barack Obama (who at that point was the more likely of the two to be the nominee) to Karl Rove. In all honesty, I didn’t believe it. Since when are the talking heads a source of all that is right and true in the world? But there were the clips and the transcripts. And most damming of all, were the posts I saw here from Hillary supporters.

It didn’t end there. In the past couple of weeks, there have been scathing attacks from Hillary Clinton on the very premise of hope, comparing Barack Obama to George W. Bush, the personal attacks from “shame on you Barack Obama” to blatant sarcasm in mocking his message and personal appeal. This was bad for Democrats and it was compounded when John McCain picked up on Hillary’s message and started tag-teaming Obama with her. Now the latest: the fear factor.

For eight long years, we’ve had our hopes and dreams beaten down by a bunch of arrogant, power-mad tyrants who cared more about their own ambition than anything including party, country, our laws or morality itself.

Take a long hard look at those Bush-machine ads from 2004. Take a long, hard look into the faces of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the other monsters parading as patriots who we have been subjected to for eight long years. After you are done throwing up, think long and hard. Is this not what we were supposed to strive to rise above?

We see Republicans turning away from the ways of George W. Bush. They are doing so because Bush put himself and his cronies above them. There are many people who live in families that have voted Republican for generations who are now re-thinking what it really means to be liberal or conservative or simply a citizen.

How dare any Democrat show these displaced Republicans that we do any less than condemn the tactics of George W. Bush and the party that has left them behind? If we are different, we need to show them that we are different.

We, as a party or as a people, will never win by lowering ourselves. Our ethics and our ideals must tower over the politics of hate and fear. Otherwise, we begin to sink.

While fear and hatred sometimes do win victories, they benefit only a few, while the masses suffer.

Senator Clinton, I’m done. You have lost every shred of respect I’ve ever had for you. You get no more defenses from me. And if you do manage to win your victory, I’ll take no pleasure in voting for you. It will simply be a matter of choosing a slow-bleed over an ax to the head.

So much it will be for the party that promises a better future.

[davidinalameda]

1. thank you

I wish I could have expressed myself as well as you have

[iilana X]

98. Thank you for supporting the premise of this thread.

Sorry I'm slow to respond and not able to respond to all. I'm on dialup and never expected the response to this post to be more than one or two flame comments. So it's been difficult to even read all the replies nevermind answer them. So, I hope you don't mind, dwickham, if I use this reply to you as a reply to those who I miss.

To the people who understand what I was trying to say, thank you for reading.

To all the people who understand and agree, thank you for making it worth withstanding the attacks from those who do not.

[anonymeme]

127. Your First Sentence Explains the Bias and Prejudical Nature of You Post...

Your First Sentence Explains the Bias and Prejudical Nature of You Post...

You have been an Obama supporter and had decided to vote for him from the jump.

Why is it I think any defense you have supposedly made for Hillary Clinton, would have been tepid at best.

BTW, Obama launched the first negative attack on Hillary when his run for the presidency was barely a thought-bud, with the commercial -- comparing Hillary to Big Brother -- which is really what the Bush-Cheney-Rove-Rumsfeld-Rice Gang were and continue to be -- and Hillary is nothing like them, and never was, not the worst day she ever lived.

Sure Obama tried to distance himself from that commercial at first -- tried to make it look like he'd had nothing to do with it -- but then he looped back to it by the end of last year -- but the damage was already done and you cannot un-punch a nose!

[DWilliamsamh]

157. Point of fact.

The "Big Brother" ad was an independent ad. It was not an ad produced and/or paid for by Barack Obama or his campaign.

The ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3G-lMZxjo

Obama campaign response and SF Gate report:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/18/MNGHNONEPS1.DTL

The source Phil de Vellis, aka ParkRidge47:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/phil-de-vellis-aka-parkridge/i-made-the-vote-differen_b_43989.html


Or do facts not really matter since they are only words?

[papau]

202. Facts do matter -and fact is Obama used it-it doesn't pass smell test as to "incidental unsolicited"

[DWilliamsamh]

214. OK... and by denouncing it he "used it."

But if he didn't denounce it you would say he supported it at the very least... damned if he did damned if he didn't. Yeah the facts do matter. And the fact is you want that ad to be hung around his neck no matter what the truth of it's origin, even KNOWING the origin was not with him or his campaign. And your response would seem to indicate that you knew the objective reality before you made a post that didn't even hint at that reality. Glad to see you are so objective and fair. This is representative of why Senator Clinton's campaign has turned me off over the last several weeks - she and her supporters seem to have adopted the Al Davis philosophy of campaigning: "Just win baby."

Your assertion regarding the ad is kind of like the "Hillary has more experience chant." It's not true but you all keep saying it in hopes that folks will believe it is. Senator Obama has spent more time in elected office, introduced and gotten passed more significant legislation, at both the state and national level, and has more time in the trenches as an organizer and activist than Senator Clinton. That is an objective fact. But once again since these are just words I guess they don't matter.

And make no mistake: if Senator Clinton is the Democratic nominee for President, I will vote for her with nose open and breathing deeply. No holding of the nose will even be contemplated here. I think she would be a very good President. But based on experience plus the ability to inspire people to citizen action, I think Senator Obama would be a better president.

[papau]

203. I have never seen so many old folks/ladies ready to walk over Obama's treatment of Hillary - McCain

will be hard for Obama to beat as distrust is at the 1968 level when Nixon was preferred despite knowing he was well to the right of HHH. Todays polls with Obama close or in the lead over McCain reflect voter turnout modeled from past elections - and this one will be very different with very high AA turnout and the seniors walking along with many over 40 women. People will do things against their own interest to get even - as shown by Obama's hero Reagan - per Obama.

[C_U_L8R]

2. ditto.

very well said.

[From The Left]

3. A sentiment shared by so many

Shame on you, Hillary Clinton!

[buff2]

4. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.........

:boring:

[Cha]

24. That's a hilary for ya...sleeping,

when important issues are being discussed. Don't bother to wake up.. to respond.

[buff2]

38. Huh.....snort......oh..... did you say something?

:boring:

[Cha]

82. Go back

to your nightmares.

[oasis]

221. Obama's "words" will lift us to "that shining city on a hill" that is America.

:loveya:After he gets us there, then what?:shrug:

[stillrockin]

151. Yes. Wake up, sheeple!!!!

[LSK]

128. you mean hillary didnt wake up at 3am????

:eyes:

[Lerkfish]

218. wake up! the red phone is ringing! better answer it!

:)

[liberalnurse]

5. Are you fibbing!

You were never a Hillary supporter now were you.........Come on now, don't be shy...get honest cause the truth will set you free.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

18. Do you have a sourse for that?

[cliffordu]

37. Come on, No soursery or other funny bizzniss

:rofl:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iilana X]

12. I clearly stated that I voted for Barack Obama but defended Hillary Clinton on principle.

This is clearly stated. You should learn how to read. It is a skill that is very useful on message boards.

[JVS]

42. The haters never read carefully.

[iilana X]

70. I'm noticing that.

:hi:

[No Blood for Hubris]

123. Who talked about hating other than you? The title makes it sound as if the loss of your support

is somehow meaningful. But if you ever supported her, you wouldn't be spinning it this way.

A big-time supporter of Obama announces she or he is done with Senator Clinton?

So?

And?

Your point is -- what?

[JVS]

139. WTF are you talking about?

[anonymeme]

132. Calling All Who Disagree w/ You a "Hater" Is a Poor Way to Inspire Unity...

Calling All Who Disagree w/ You a "Hater" Is a Poor Way to Inspire Unity...

Not a good tactic nor a people-winning strategy.

[JVS]

138. Supporting Hillary is a poor way to inspire Unity

[anonymeme]

130. Are There Any Posts Showing Your "Defense" of Hillary?

Are There Any Posts Showing Your "Defense" of Hillary?

Because other than the streets, grocery store & restaurants where you claim you have defended her, because if you cannot direct anyone to some posts in which you did, there seems to be no palpable evidence that you ever defended her.

BTW, I read very carefully and you have to be aware that not all of us are under the spell of Obama and we are going to question what looks and smells like bovine excrement. And we're not just going to go along with it lock-step, no matter how the Obama camp tried to strong-arm everybody, by calling good sense and sensible caution, "hate."

[UALRBSofL]

15. liberalnurse that is too funny

:yourock:

[tyne]

17. Ya...what

liberalnurse said, stop acting like you ever supported Hillary even though you admitted, in your first sentence, that you have always supported Obama.......er...what?

I couldn't agree more with the OP.

[liberalnurse]

44. I failed to locate any defense statements by the OP

wherein Hillary was supported in the reply. Nothing to date.

[niceypoo]

64. This is common in "I am tired of Defending Hillary" threads

You do a search and all you find are snarky anti-Hillary posts by the OP, going back for months.

Nothing new here.

[PassingFair]

93. We all have to defend her IRL.

THAT'S what the poster means.

I can air my problems with Ms. Clinton here, but
I do NOT talk negatively about her in public.

The general public thinks badly enough about her
already!

[iilana X]

101. Exactly.

I don't choose to join in the public attacks on Clinton. I'm just done with defending her from them.
And I'm far less-enthusiastic about her as a potential nominee after the negativity of the past two weeks.

It's rare that you have a second choice almost as good as your first choice.

What made this election special for Democrats (aside from being a last farewell to a petty dictator) was our great candidates. (Note the plural.) Look at what the Republicans had to offer. That was a motly assortment of complete losers.

We had wonderful candidates and our final two showed us as a party proud.

Now that pride has been tarnished. It's a shame.

[Horse with no Name]

149. And as much as I DESPISE obama

I have defended those fake emails until I am blue in the face.
But, I tell you what.
In order to quash YOUR little tantrum...whenever anyone starts talking about obama--I will just let it ride as truth.
So there you go.
My non-support of obama will wash with your non-support of Hillary.
You have been rendered impotent.

[No Blood for Hubris]

111. Yes, they do that at dailyKos, too. Very boring, all the anti-Hillary

propaganda.

Let's move on.

[earthside]

69. Shake that fist.

The anger.

What comes next? Bashing an Obama supporter with that sign?

Is that how a woman president would change the rules?

A good example of why old Hill is now evoking such a sense of melancholy.

[iilana X]

88. I don't support Hillary Clinton for President. Never have. I did defend her as a Democrat.

She hasn't been acting like a Democrat the past few weeks and no longer (in my opinion) merits that defense as a good Democrat. I'm afraid that my opinion of her has changed.

[defendandprotect]

173. She's a DLC Democrat -- which is kinda like being a Republican . . .

If you want nothing, she'll give it to you --
plus take away some stuff you already have ---

Did you want single payer health care --- well neither she nor Obama will do that ---

[eridani]

210. WE will have to do that, by pushing the nominee from below n/t

[krkaufman]

121. You, of course, are limiting your search to DU

From the OP...

"the attacks I’ve heard from ordinary people on the streets, in the grocery store, at restaurants, at work and so on"

So, this DUer does not limit their "personal" contact to DU, and have very probably defended Hillary Clinton in their personal life.

[me b zola]

204. That is a wonderfully powerful picture

I say this as someone who is strongly opposed to Hillary as the Democratic nominee, what a wonderfully powerful pic. The way you have used that pic, however, takes away from it's real beauty and strength.

[Donkeykick]

85. Exactly my thoughts too.

[krkaufman]

120. I don't see where they ever presented themself as a Clinton supporter...

... only a Clinton defender, as a fellow Democrat.

How's that truth setting you free?

[GOTV]

222. If you read the OP you'd know the answer to your questions...

... the OP never claimed to support Hillary only that He/She used to like and defend Hillary to her detractors while preferring Obama. That urge to defend has now stopped.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. Yes. I'm Sure The Loss Of An Obama Supporter Is Crushing To Her.

:rofl:

[iilana X]

22. And I'm sure it is not, which, in case you missed it, was the point of the post. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. I Mean, How Could Hillary Possibly Win If She Loses The Support Of Those Already Solidly For Obama?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh my, some of you kill me!

[iilana X]

48. She never had my vote. She had my respect as a Democrat.

If that means nothing to her, than it proves the entire point of my post. If you don't understand that, it's not funny but sad. Very sad.

[Darth_Kitten]

161. Right.......

:eyes:

[SoFlaJet]

26. she's not only lost Obama supporters

she has turned off Dodd, Biden, Edwards, Richardson,and Kucinich supporters alike-I was an Edwards guy and saw the way the Clinton crowd and their "girl" was acting to other democrats and it helped me make my decision to Obama instead of her...so yea, while one person means little add up all the other "one persons" and you have a candidate that has lost 11 contests in a row being rejected by her own party with very RWish tactics-great OP

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. Pssssstttt. Hey..... You...... C'mere..... You Do Know Hillary Has More Support From Dems Than

obama does, right? I mean, you know that right?

"being rejected by her own party"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

She has more support from our party than Obama does. God that comment made you look so silly and uninformed LOL

[SoFlaJet]

40. oh REALLLLLLY?

11 wins in a row for Obama at an average of 33% tells different as does the popular vote almost a million more votes have been cast for Barack Obama-God your post makes you look so silly and uninformed LOL

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. ROFL!!! You're Still Holding On To Your Position? TOO FUNNY!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

When it comes to self described Democrats, Hillary is likely hundreds of thousands of votes ahead of Obama. SHE HAS MORE PARTY SUPPORT THAN HE DOES. God you look like a fool! What, did you think everyone voting for him in these contests were strict Democrats? Were you unaware that like, independents and republicans and stuff, like, vote too? Oh how sad for you! LOL

Your comment of her "being rejected by her own party" shows you to be completely uninformed and ignorant as it relates to the reality of our party's support for her. Seriously, educate yourself please. :hi:

[BearSquirrel2]

83. Maybe that's because ...

Maybe she has more support within the party because people are were turned off by her brand of politics and decided to call themselves independents. Hillary has name recognition. But once Obama gets into a state, Hillary loses her leads.

If we can bring all these independents into the party, we will be far better off. Especially since Clinton/McCain is a dead heat while Obama/McCain is a a much better race for us that doesn't bring out all the Hillary/McCain haters out to vote against Hillary.

[iilana X]

94. You just hit the nail on the head.

Both parties are losing voters who are turning Independent because they don't like what they see in either party. We need to show them that the Democratic Party is different, not just in our beliefs and the issues we fight for, but in the way we fight for them.

[PVnRT]

164. Prove it

We'll wait.

[Daemonaquila]

176. Wake up and smell the kool-aid

Wow. I thought only Republicans drank their own cool aid.

What matters is that she's being rejected by people who are voting Dem. The little "real" or "insider" or "ooh-I've-got-a-Democratic-Party-secret-decoder-ring-so-I'm-teh-koolz" crowd doesn't matter a whit against the voters.

Of course, as the DNC gets closer, we're seeing a lot more of them superdelegates defect away from Hillary... so maybe even within teh koolz crowd she's losing that luster mighty fast.

[GOTV]

223. "likely"? So you don't know who democratic voters support more. n/t

[Kittycat]

183. OMC doesn't count the youth vote, or the AA vote, or those that are newly registered/change over dem

He only counts those that HRC counts.

[liberalnurse]

56. Reminder here....

Republicans are crossing over, voting for Obama to defeat Hillary as their goal. They will be voting McCain in the General. C-Span this AM had several callers who said they will be doing this...2 were from Ohio.

How would you count this Ohio GOP vote...one or two?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. LOL!

[iilana X]

76. Not all "republicans" are really Republicans. They are Independents or Democrats waiting to happen.

Many of the people I know who are registered as Republicans don't like anything their party has done their entire political lives. The are legacy Republicans. They registered the way their parents did and are now sick of voting the way their parents did.

I've seen it over and over again since 2004. They start with criticism of Bush. They vote for Kerry or for a Democratic in a congressional election. They keep voting Democratic. Before you know it, they are calling themselves Independent and voting for Democrats.

[Mimosa]

141. I'm done......

iiliana X is describing a lot of voters here. In my long
record as a voter I've voted for Democratic candidates,
Republican candidates as well as third party candidates. I
don't believe any one political party represents the entire
'truth' in all issues any more than I believe in a 'True
Faith.' 

I've later regretted voting for certain candidates. No, I
never voted for G. H. W. or G. W. Bush. LOL  I can easily see
the Democratic Party's renaissance will lie in capturing votes
from the persuadable disillusioned citizens. We like Obama for
some good reasons. He's no ineffectual Jimmy Carter (this GA
gal clearly remembers his unimpressive governorship and
presidency.)

I think President Obama will become as great and beloved a
president as FDR was!

[BearSquirrel2]

84. Faux has been trumpeting Hillary for years ...

Faux news has been trumpeting Hillary for years. They know darn well she is the easier candidate to defeat. If marching orders are coming to jump party lines, they're coming for Hillary.

[ekwhite]

145. Wow - that picture is a GREAT way to win over voters in Ohio N/T

[tabasco]

74. Stop posting bogus information. March 2 Rasmussen:

In the Democratic Presidential Nomination. Obama now earns support from 44% of Likely Democratic Primary Voters while Clinton attracts 44% (see recent daily results). Rasmussen Markets data shows that expectations for Obama to win the nomination are nearing 90%.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. I'm Not Talking About The Poll Of The Day, Genius.

I'm talking about the actual support she's received. Furthermore, even that poll shows that the statement of "being rejected by her own party" is totally insane and ignorant, so thanks for further proof! :hi:

[CONN]

80. Not all "Likely Democratic Primary Voters" are Democrats (eom)

[D23MIURG23]

192. I've seen no evidence of that. Maybe you could provide some?

[Hepburn]

54. Yep....

...I started with Dennis....went to JRE....and when there were two left, Obama got my support because he was NOT Hillary Clinton. With the nastiness of the Hillbots....I can tell ya, I am more determined to see that Hillary loses the nomination. They are often as obnoxious as is Hillary and have done NOTHING that would make me in any manner support their queen...er...Hillary.

[HooptieWagon]

7. Nice post - rec

[JVS]

9. I agree. And many of her supporters are just as bad.

When they go and say that we aren't democrats, it's almost an honor not to be considered part of any group that some of these shitheads are in.

[No Blood for Hubris]

129. Trash-talking fellow Democrats? Calling them "shitheads"? Who

taught you manners? Karl Rove?

[Hepburn]

10. Wonderful post....

...well thought out, factual, well written, concise and to the point.

Thank you. I, too, now have no respect for Hillary Clinton. In fact, I have less than no respect. I find her and her conduct in this campaign to be despicable. The mocking scenario and the whining and crying are just absolutely unacceptable to the point of being disgusting and obnoxious.

A K&R for the extremely well done OP! Thank you! :hi:

[jenmito]

32. Hey, Hepburn!

I agree with your sentiment 100%. :hi:

[liberalnurse]

60. Obama and Brother Justin, one in the same.

[BearSquirrel2]

89. Bill on the left ...

That's Bill on the left, Hillary in the Center and Obama on the right trying to push away the poison communion of NAFTA and WTO that has badly hurt this nation.

I suspect that McCain is the wife pimping peepshow operator in troop and Lieberman is the Blind Mentalist Lotsi. I'll have to consult the augers.

[Faygo Kid]

11. March 5 will be a blessed day.

[Window]

13. K/R.

[MethuenProgressive]

14. You defended Clinton? Link?

:rofl:

[iilana X]

35. What is it with the inability to read here?

I've defended her in my family, in the grocery store, in work, in lines at the bank, and among obnoxious people who are loud in public about their politics of hate.

Do you deny ever having overheard outrageous and sexist comments about Hillary Clinton?

They offended me. I'll turn a deaf ear in the future because Hillary Clinton has lost my respect.

Really, you should learn to read a post before commenting.

[rug]

73. I defend Obama in the grocery store every chance I get.

I'm more circumspect in the laundromat.

[iilana X]

100. LOL!

Another good place to promote Democrats. Hey, wherever and whenever.

"Might for Right" - Camelot

[Yael]

78. But those are only real people. For it to count

you have to post about it on the interwebs.

:silly:

[iilana X]

102. LOL! It is kinda an alternate universe. Easy to forget that 99.9% of life takes place outside of

the interwebs.

:7

[stop the bleeding]

16. I think you sum up several people's thoughts, but this last line...

Senator Clinton, I’m done. You have lost every shred of respect I’ve ever had for you. You get no more defenses from me. And if you do manage to win your victory, I’ll take no pleasure in voting for you. It will simply be a matter of choosing a slow-bleed over an ax to the head.

I'll still vote for her if she is the nominee

[iilana X]

43. What other choice do we have?

Can you imagine John McCain in the White House? God knows who he will choose as his second in command?

[liberalnurse]

62. So, vote Obama now when we can vote Hillary...???

Nah..........

[writes3000]

19. I have respect left for Hillary BUT

I do agree that the tactics of the last two weeks have been frighteningly close to Republican attacks. I don't think the Obama campaign has been entirely clean. But the Clinton campaign has engaged in more of this stuff AND Clinton herself has done a big chunk of it.

It's a shame for both sides.

[WillyT]

20. Excellent Post !!! - K & R !!!

:bounce::kick::bounce:

[cali]

21. Toughen up. She's fighting hard, so is he

and if she pulls it out and the nominee, she'll have proven that she has what it takes- although I see that as very, very unlikely.

[TwilightGardener]

23. Yep--how do we get change from the last 8 years when we have

a possible nominee who reaches into the Republican playbook and aligns with the GOP opposition to try to defeat Obama? That tells me how she'll govern, if she is so comfortable picking up their tactics and talking points for her own use.

[buff2]

36. What about O

wanting to "join hands and work with the repukes". Like they would fall all over themselves to get to work with him. Repukes won't work with ANYONE other than their own. O has got a LOT to learn.

[TwilightGardener]

51. He has worked with them before to get worthwhile legislation passed--

without sacrificing Dem principles. Respecting and listening to Republicans (even if they don't deserve it), rather than pledging to fight them or marginalize them, is how he'll get things done. Doesn't mean he'll let go of his agenda, or start triangulating, or make compromises that are unacceptable. Hillary will have to deal with R's too, and win some over, because we're not going to have a supermajority in the Senate, barring a miracle.

[tyne]

58. Sheesh!

I think we should start calling some of you Limbaugh Democrats. You sound just like Rush.

[iilana X]

104. Working with them is one thing. Behaving like them is another. n/t

[Chisox08]

188. You have to work with the other party to get stuff done.

That is the only way anything gets done in DC. Unless you have a veto proff majority and still you might have to get some of the Repukes to join in with you.

[defendandprotect]

177. Correct . . . hold that thought! BUT, that doesn't make Obama our way out . . .!!!

We should rid ourselves of both of these candidates and go back to Edwards/Kucinich ---
or someone new ---

[goclark]

27. That is exactly the way that I feel

You expressed it so beautifully.:hug:

The CHANGE we want to see is in the quality of the debate and the message.

This has become "politics as usual" with the Karl Rove type smears.

To the younger generation that kind of politics should not be rewarded.

The message that America needs to send to the world is " this is a new day for our country, we will rise above the Karl Rove tactics and we will display our real leadership quality. Goodbye gutter slime, goodbye."

[iilana X]

55. Thank you. I'm a believer in our young people.

They have been absent from participation in our democracy. They are active now and I pray that they stay active. That will be the lasting victory if it can be achieved.

[buff2]

29. In a way I hope Obama wins

That way I can laugh my ass off when the repukes cut him to shreds. It's going to be a blood bath. :rofl:

[TwilightGardener]

34. You must be a true-blue Democrat then, to hope our nominee loses. Yep, that's

a Hillary supporter--all about Hillary, not about the Democratic party. Just like Hillary herself.

[buff2]

45. What's the difference in you wanting Hillary to lose

and me wanting Obama to lose? Are you Hillary haters supporting our party.....or just OBAMA??? :wtf:

[TwilightGardener]

53. I don't want Hillary to lose in November, no matter how annoyed I am now.

I don't want 4 more years of the GOP. You, apparently, will enjoy it just for the pleasure of seeing Obama "torn apart".

[buff2]

63. I don't want 4 more years of the GOPerverts either

But that's what we will end up with if Obama wins the nomination. These old ass white rightwingnut "Christians" will get their flocks in all these churches in line and they will come out in the millions.......just to make sure a man of color never holds the highest office in the land. I hear these repukes talk around where I live and they are totally against Obama being President. They are voting for Hillary in the primary so he won't get it. Repukes are hell bent on keeping it all white and all "right". Vicious,vicious people.

[TwilightGardener]

68. I don't think so. Race is always a factor, but it won't cost him the Presidency.

[sendero]

71. They'd try the same thing with a woman.

... especially a woman that TO A ONE, is HATED by the very folks you mention.

See you Tuesday.

[whopis01]

116. Obama supporters want Clinton to lose the nomination, you want Obama to lose the general election.

That is the difference.

[Mme. Defarge]

72. Then,

she could try to get a pass until 2012. It's certainaly a strategy.

[TwilightGardener]

87. That's what I'm afraid of--the secret hope (and plan) that McCain wins and

then she is clear to try again in 2012. That's awful, and traitorous.

[nxylas]

140. Good luck with that

Does Senator Clinton really think that the Democratic Party will forgive her if she is perceived as being to blame for a McCain win in November? Look at the animosity that Ralph Nader still attracts, even 8 years later. (edit:typo)

[defendandprotect]

179. No one wants Republicans to win . .. whether they are GOP or from the DLC --- !!!

[southern_dem]

39. Yep

4 more years of Bush would just be hilarious. :eyes:

[writes3000]

41. Sad, sad, sad.

I can honestly say I've never seen an Obama supporter say something like this.

[buff2]

52. I know.........

Obama is really Jesus Christ and you supporters are his deciples. None of you say anything bad about Hillary do you? You people are a real trip.....:rofl:

[writes3000]

66. Can you TRY to be rational? Is it that hard?

1) I don't bash Hillary or her supporters. I have CRITICIZED others who bash Hillary and her supporters.

2) I have said I will happily vote for Hillary if she's the nominee.

3) Democrats should rally around whoever the nominee is. We need to get the Republicans out of the White House.

So once again, I say your apparent glee at the notion of ANY Dem candidate losing is sad and quite frankly, a drag on the party.

[GOTV]

225. Your absurd exaggeration aside - I don't see Obama supporters enjoying ....

... the thought of her losing the GE. If Hillary is the nominee I will still hope she wins and does well.

[cliffordu]

47. I think someone just outed themselves as an operative for

The Republicant's....Hmmmmm
:puke:








Edited for puke

[iilana X]

108. Another true blue Democrat. Nuff said. n/t

[GOTV]

224. I want Obama to win but if he doesn't, I hope Hillary will do well. See the difference? n/t

[Cha]

30. Brilliant post..hilary is a detriment on

our country.

[buff2]

59. You refuse to even spell her name correctly

or are you just so full of hate for her you can't respect even her name? That's really sad. What will you guys do when she wins? Is the hate going to be worse? Oh wait......it couldn't get any worse.

[Cha]

81. Because hilary is a detriment for our

country.

[Tatiana]

31. Completely agree.

After Edwards dropped out, I was leaning Clinton due to her fighting skills. Wes Clark's words were important to me. But her campaigning has really been a huge turn-off. I'm still waiting for her to "renounce and deny" the words of that old lady in Texas who said Obama's problem was that he was black.

[dana_b]

49. You hit the nail

on my head! That's exactly how I'v been feeling lately. I have never hated Hillary nor have I thought that she was a bitch, or shrill or any of that nonsense. I'v had respect for the Clintons even if I haven't agreed with all of their choices. However BOTH of their behaviors lately have really changed my thinking. I realise that Obama is still a politician too and has had his questionable moments, but nothing like what Hillary has been demonstrating lately.

[iilana X]

67. I've never understanded the animosity.

The past couple of weeks have really turned me off. I turn the television off when she comes on now. I've never done that before.

Let me correct that, there is one exception.

Joe Lieberman, but he's technically an Independent now.

[dana_b]

90. I will listen to what she says

when she's talking policy, but if she goes off, like with that "the skies will open up!" crap, then I either laugh at her or turn the channel.

[Daemonaquila]

184. Hey, don't forget...

Zell Miller.

[TheWraith]

50. I agree entirely. Well said. nt

[ElsewheresDaughter]

57. "what we needed than eight years as the First Spouse" .....here ya go, educate yourself.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHW0RzXe4DQ

[Mme. Defarge]

65. K & R!

The robo-calls, whisper campaigns, efforts at voter suppression, trying to change the rules mid-stream, hit and run smears, and, the ultimate Rovian tactic of accusing the other side of the very dirty tricks that her campaign is engaging in ...

How can anyone overlook, let alone endorse this?

Then, there's the arrogance and ineptness of her campaign, and the same old divide and conquer red-state/blue-state so-called strategy.

I didn't start out as an Obama supporter, but went the Kucinich, then Edwards route. I couldn't understand the appeal of Obama, particularly with my Republican friends. I got annoyed when people would make the comment that everything hinges on this election -- that this would be the most important election of our lifetime, because, in my view, that was the case in 2004, and we lost. The damage was now done.

Now, I get it. I believe that we really do have a last chance to break from the past. With an inspirational and capable leader, a Democratic House and Senate, and a genuine national mandate to work together to rebuild our infrastructure, and restore our international prestige, I believe that America can still step back from the abyss.

Hillary's campaign has done nothing to inspire confidence, let alone real hope, and has done everything to reinforce my early misgivings that a vote for her would be a vote for Bush with a brain, or, as another Du'er described her, "Bush in a pantsuit."

Obama, on the other hand, is turning me into a believer that "Yes, we can!"

[iilana X]

169. We have a chance to strengthen our party and bring new voters into the fold.

When a campaign is "owned" by more than a million people, it's a good indication that something in that campaign is addressing a need. Instead of knocking that need, she should have tried to meet it.

Think about over a million people not only saying "Yes we can" but putting their money where there mouth is. That's a force that goes beyond any single candidate. It is a force for progress that could usher in a new dawn for our party. Ignore it at your peril.

Hillary Clinton made a choice in how to proceed against this unforseen obstacle to her campaign. She chose to attack the message as well as the messenger. She chose to do so in a way that will remind Democrats of the tactics that have been used against time and time again by the Right Wing.

I've no doubt that this is going to be a fatal error for the Clinton campaign. It will probably be studied in Politics 101 for generations to come.

Let's just hope (there's that offending word again) that it isn't studied as the final wedge that split apart the Democratic Party.

[defendandprotect]

181. How? By NOT providing single payer health care + by privatizing parts of SS --- ????

Do you hear OBAMA taking the right-wing/Wall Street Journal propaganda that Social Security is in "crisis" . . . as his own???? !!!!

Wake up!!!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

77. Great post ilana!

[MindMatter]

79. You didn't mention threatening to sue the party

on multiple occasions

a) if they didn't hand her the delegates from MI and FL in those false elections and

b) in Texas, just because, I guess.

Talk about acting like a Republican.

She has earned her Republican Lite stripes for sure.

[iilana X]

91. No, I didn't mention that.

It's certainly not a party-strengthening tactic. We need to elect both a Democratic President and a strong-majority Congress.

[defendandprotect]

182. Hillary was a Goldwater-Republican . . .

she evidently left them over some disagreement about Nelson Rockefeller a more liberal Repug ---

[yourguide]

86. I am with you 100%

their tactics have been lower than low.

[flordehinojos]

92. one correction to the distortion you present here ...

hillary clinton compared the attacks on her from the obama camp as something coming from the karl rove play book. she never compared BO to karl rove.

now ... the fact that he is using rovian tactics on her, and the fact that she has called him on it may be something that you do not like. but, please, do not confuse apples and oranges, distort, or add falsities to what she has said.

thank y ou.

[Dogmudgeon]

95. When did you ever defend her?

I must have blinked the time you did it.

--p!

[NashVegas]

96. Why Do I Doubt You Ever Started?

..

[MindMatter]

126. There are many of us who supported her legitimacy

as a campaign even though she wasn't our first choice. With the tactics they have employed recently a lot of us feel like her campaign is no longer legitimate and should come to an end and don't want any candidate employing those tactics to find success in our party.

[OnionPatch]

97. I used to like her ok.

In fact, I wavered before voting for Obama because I liked Hillary. But aside from the IWR, which I was almost ready to forgive her for, her campaign tactics are what's changed my opinion for her. It's hard not to feel that she'll do anything to get elected after watching her ads. The 3:00 ad was straight out of the GOP playbook but the very worst thing she and her followers have done is make fun of and try to shame people for having hope and inspiration. I just can't imagine that the party of Kennedy and supporters of MLK would ever, in any situation, make fun of people for being inspired to change their country. :puke:

I'll vote for Hillary is she's the nominee for the same reason you list, but I won't take pleasure in it.

[RetroLounge]

99. ...

:rofl:

RL

[rodeodance]

103. You are under the effects of the SWOON--I forgive you.

Senator Clinton, I’m done. You have lost every shred of respect I’ve ever had for you. You get no more defenses from me. And if you do manage to win your victory, I’ll take no pleasure in voting for you. It will simply be a matter of choosing a slow-bleed over an ax to the head.

So much it will be for the party that promises a better future.

[iilana X]

115. To swoon or not to swoon, that is the question... Actually, I'm not the swooning type.

I'm hardly a new or a young voter. By demographics alone, I should be a Hillary Clinton voter.
While Obama is my first choice among the candidates running this time around, I can happily say I'll not be swooning anytime soon.

Sorry to dissapoint, but I'm unconditionally opposed to swooning.

However, if I happen to be at the beach and say, Hugh Jackman saunters wearing only... Well, let's just say that might convince me to rethink my position.

:7 Time to change the subject.

:hi:

[rodeodance]

118. you got duped into believing lies about Hillary. simple as that.

[iilana X]

119. But I don't believe all the lies about Hillary. There have been some very outrageous ones.

I do read everything that both candidates have been accused of. Some have merit and some do not. My post is not about attacks or lies.

It is about the tactics I've seen coming directly from Hillary Clinton and her campaign. This is not based on what has been said about Hillary Clinton but what she has said about her opponent.

She has said things unbecomming a Democrat in comparing another Democrat to Karl Rove and George W. Bush. Do you sincerely believe that all is fair in politics? Do you honestly think winning is more important that keeping and creating a strong Democratic Party?

No, I do not believe lies said about Hillary clinton, but I do believe what I hear coming from her own mouth. Should I not?

[grantcart]

125. I swooned in 68 haven't swooned since - but I am starting a little mini swooning now

[Kablooie]

105. I agree! She's showing she's cut from the same cloth as the Republicans.

And Obama doesn't seem to be.

Whether he is really different is an unknown but we know now that Hillary isn't.

If you're looking for change, Hillary is not the one to put your trust in.

[Diane R]

106. I feel exactly like you do: I used to like Hillary OK, and now I have no respect for her.

[apocalypsehow]

107. All so true. Excellent OP; K & R.

n/t.

[ACanadianLiberal]

109. A baby-killer's madness

Why mad at a baby on the slaughter bed? Because she is crying so badly, you lost your heavenly cheap respect to the baby because she is crying over the pain and fear being slaughtered. Look at yourself in the mirror, there is blood on your chin and cheek. Wake up, you are not an angel.

[No Blood for Hubris]

110. So, your point is that if you can't have Obama, you'll take your ball

and bat and go home?

Or vote for McCain?

Or vote for Nader?

I think your frame is very misleading. I don't believe you've ever defended Hillary Clinton.

Must have been the Jack Nicholson ad that put you over the top, eh?

[iilana X]

117. I'm amazed at the inability to read that I've seen since posting here.

Go back and r e a d the post and perhaps you can leave a comment that makes sense in the context of the original post. Perhaps not, but give it a try at least.

[Egalia]

112. Obama condemns Hillary for playing the fear card..

and then he copies her ad. Can't have it both ways, if her ad is trying to 'scare up votes' as Obama says, then why the hell is his ad an exact copy? Once again, what Obama says is not what Obama does.

[Seabiscuit]

113. Underneath the sheen of fairness and seeming reasonableness in your OP,

you suddenly depart with a dishonest, irrational lead into Hillary's angry response to Obama's deceitful and thoroughly dishonest attacks on Hillary's health plan in his mailers. They contained already thoroughly discredited misrepresentations and distortions about her health plan, even quoting a newspaper's words which were previously exposed as false, and retracted by the same newspaper prior to being included in Obama's mailers.

She angrily stated that Obama's continued use of these mailers reeked of the tactics Karl Rove uses. And indeed they were in fact utterly Rovian. What Obama did with those mailers is *exactly* what Karl Rove does, falsifying, mirepresenting, distorting, and obfuscating someone's position on issues.

And you have the gall to slam Hillary for this, using your own distortion of these FACTS by saying "Hillary Clinton was comparing Barack Obama to Karl Rove"! He didn't compare Obama to Rove, he said that Obama's *tactics* in using those fraudulent mailers were the kind of *tactics* employed by Karl Rove, and she was absolutely correct about this.

I could go on and on with the rest of your OP, but it's all the same. Such distortions of the record give the lie to your specious claim at the beginning of your OP that you defended Hillary until the mailer incident. I don't believe your protestations about fairness and reasonableness, as a result. This is nothing but more deceitful Obamanoid crap, and I'm calling you on it.

And you've earned for yourself a big fat welcome to my "ignore" button. Congratulations!

[1776Forever]

114. HRC and WJC are not doing themselves any good by their current tactics! It is a SHAME!

:dilemma:

[Politicalboi]

122. I agree Hillary is

showing her true colors and I don't like it. At least Obama is getting more Repukes to vote for him and I think they will stay in November. Obama wants Repukes in his cabinet too just like Lincoln did.

[XtraProudDem]

124. Me too

Wow, your timeline for losing your enthusiasm for Hillary is the same as mine.

This is what Hillary supporters don't seem to get - a lot of us Obama supporters like Hillary Clinton and we are deeply disappointed in the road she has taken in the last few weeks.

I still respect her - but the time has come for her to stand down. A few more weeks of this and the MSM will REALLY start hammering at us.

[iilana X]

133. We need to be the party to denounce the "win at any cost" tactics we've seen from the Bush people.

Dissapointed is the word I've been reaching for. Thank you. I'm dissapointed she'd do that.

If she's the hands-down winner in the qualifications category (and I'm not conceeding this by any stretch of the imagination) why not go for the win on her own qualifications and her own accomplishments? If she won on that basis then so be it. But if the win is tainted by Bushlike tactics, it's not a good win.

Actually, I don't fault her for still being in there and for fighting hard as she can. She owes it to her supporters to give it an honest and tough fight through Tuesday. If she can't pull off a big win on Tuesday, then I agree that she needs to do the right thing for the party and conceed.

[dcindian]

131. It isn't pretty when someone pulls out all the stops.

There should be a line in the sand to most voters. A line which when crossed causes one to pause.

Most of us have had an opportunity to check and see what it is that Clinton offers that qualifiers her for the role of president. Based on that alone she has as many positives to be president as do the other Democratic candidates. I know my support of Obama was a tough choice several short months ago. A matter of fact he was not my first choice at all.

But there is more.

While most Democratic candidates have many of the same positives that bring Democratic supporters to the voting booth, there is one candidate who has proven again and again one thing to us. That there is also a candidate with the ability to throw many of the core values of Democrats under the bus, and that candidate is Hillary Clinton.

We democrats pride our selves on understanding issues, using truth, compassion, and a sense of fair play to make our decisions on what we support. We use these core values even to the point of our own undoing sometimes. We seldom fight fire with fire and the Republican surrogates and increasingly the republicans themselves use this to their advantage.

Hillary Clinton is a candidate that does not share those same values these last few weeks. And that fact has hit us full in the face. With the baiting that Bill has done in the name of Hillary and the other numerous underhanded tactics her campaign uses nearly daily now. Tactics like Obama is a Muslim and a drug dealer, tactics like fear mongering. Tactics which seem counter to what we all have learned as Democrats. Tactics which honestly seem to be more in line with what the Republicans do.

It seems almost alien to see a Democrat using these vile tactics, and I am not sure who Hillary Clinton is trying to garner support from with these distasteful tactics.

On a positive note: The sickening use of these tactics is accomplishing one thing and that is the baptism of Obama in the world of right wing political assassination. And I am proud of him for being not only above using such tactics but also his ability to defuse them within mere minutes.

[kdpeters]

134. You really nailed it.

Her vote for the Iraq war started it for me. After that, I started paying closer attention and at some point along the way, I concluded that everything ... every single action as a Senator, every single word she has spoken for the past seven years has been first and foremost calculated as to the risks/benefit of her Presidential campaign. I thought that was bad at at the time. Now seeing how she and her campaign continue to sink lower and lower in their behavior throughout this primary election, the fact that she shirked her duties as a Senator for her future Presidential run almost seems minor juxtaposed alongside that mountain of ugly shenanigans they've been building up since the new year.

Even long after I concluded she was in it for Hillary and Hillary only, I still defended her from the right wing slime and some of the really over-the-top disrespect from Matthews, Limbaughs, et al and their sycophants. To this day, I try to say something nice about her or at least civil considering she might be the nominee. All this time I held out hope she was still the person I'd always thought her to be, but that Presidential ambition impaired her judgment. Now, however, I'm starting to think it really might be something more fundamental lacking in her character and more permanent than the November election.

[anonymeme]

142. Nobody Can Nail Jelly to Tree & Have It Stick...

Nobody Can Nail Jelly to Tree & Have It Stick...

It will slowly slide away from the nail down the side of the tree, into a pile on the ground where the flies and various other insects will eat it, and it will grow mold and smell like excrement...

The point?

You say: "Her vote for the Iraq war started it for me. After that, I started paying closer attention and at some point along the way,"

And you want us to believe that when the entire country was in a perpetual state of fear and most Democrats in Congress voted for the war -- which Bush wanted, and for which he gave incomplete, "cherry-picked," misleading intel to the members of Congress to get their support -- you singled out Hillary and "thought that was bad at at the time" so you supposedly "concluded" the following:

"every single action as a Senator, every single word she has spoken for the past seven years has been first and foremost calculated as to the risks/benefit of her Presidential campaign."

No she's been there working in Congress to get things SINCE the year 2000.


Of course Obama didn't vote for the war -- HE WASN'T IN CONGRESS AT THE TIME!

Obama's only been there since 2004 and repeatedly missed votes on various issues, because he wanted to run for president and didn't want to be called on anything he voted for or against.

It would appear that Obama's the one who has only been interested in the Presidency while he has been in Congress -- "eyes on the prize" and "all that jazz!"


You say: "the fact that she shirked her duties as a Senator for her future Presidential run"

It's NOT a "fact," and if the idea of being a shirker applies to anyone, it's Obama.

Re: "Even long after I concluded she was in it for Hillary and Hillary only,"

No one would work as hard as Hillary has for medical care for and recognition of our troops, the 9/11 policemen and firemen -- who booed her at first out of ugly partisanship -- getting care for their ailments as a result of 9/11 and run all over the country trying to get into a spot where she can help more of us, as a self-serving endeavor.

Re: "I still defended her from the right wing slime and some of the really over-the-top disrespect from Matthews, Limbaughs, et al and their sycophants. To this day, I try to say something nice about her or at least civil considering she might be the nominee."

Well this post of yours certainly shows NO evidence of that.

[defendandprotect]

185. You can if it's packaged right . . .!!!

[kdpeters]

196. Response

you singled out Hillary and "thought that was bad at at the time" so you supposedly "concluded" the following

No, I didn't single out Hillary at that moment. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Everyone who voted 'yes' was met with the same disdain and increased scrutiny. It was a big deal to me. A really big deal. As I told you already, that's when I started paying closer attention with greater suspicion to all of them. At some point after that, yes, Hillary stood out from the rest as to the lengths she would go to take no stand on anything and the amount of words she would use to say nothing at all. Even as far back then, there were recurring murmurs of a possible presidential run in 2008. That certainly seemed to me the most plausible motive to explain her actions, so that became the lens through which I judged her actions (or lack thereof). I was right, and I'm not at all inclined to reward such abject ambition and cynicism. It all makes perfect sense. You have to keep in mind that those of us who opposed the war from the very beginning are remarkably clairvoyant. Chelsea says so.

Of course Obama didn't vote for the war -- HE WASN'T IN CONGRESS AT THE TIME!

And how is this at all relevant to what I'm talking about? It's about Obama to you. I didn't even mention the guy, and I'm not chasing any red herrings. It's about the war to me. That's what I said. That's what I meant. Hillary voted for the Iraq war and has never taken a strong, unequivocal stand otherwise. That's an important factor to me and that's a problem Hillary has on her own merits. She can't blame that on anyone else.

No one would work as hard as Hillary has for medical care for and recognition of our troops, the 9/11 policemen and firemen -- who booed her at first out of ugly partisanship -- getting care for their ailments as a result of 9/11 and run all over the country trying to get into a spot where she can help more of us, as a self-serving endeavor.

I have no doubt she'd make a fine President on other issues, but she'd be bad on Iraq. That's the one issue that dwarfs all others. It's about Iraq and she failed.

Re: "I still defended her from the right wing slime and some of the really over-the-top disrespect from Matthews, Limbaughs, et al and their sycophants. To this day, I try to say something nice about her or at least civil considering she might be the nominee."

Well this post of yours certainly shows NO evidence of that.

Then I hope this post will be more to your approval. I do think Clinton would make a fine president.

[iilana X]

143. It's not good if your battle to lead the party ends up cleaving the party in two.

This could get really ugly and we could all lose in the end.

[defendandprotect]

187. That's true... however, perhaps you have TWO losing candidates . . .

Unless you want nothing at all from them----????

Perhaps we should backtrack or start all over --- ???

This nonsense about blocking in a single candidate by March is crap ---

It only boxes in voters and gives them no where to go ---

You have two candidates --- Clinton and Obama --- Clinton is DLC and promising nothing but
garbage re health care and SS ---

Obama is just as bad ---

Decisions to support either of these two candidates can't be valid ---
they have to be total compromise --- a new downward spiral ---

Is that what you want?

[AntiFascist]

135. K&R, if Hillary's campaign is not brought down NOW...

we will end up having McCain for president.

[defendandprotect]

189. You know, we heard that kind of PUSH to get Kucinich and Edwards out of

the race --- where has that gotten you but into a downward spiral of accepting less and
less from Clinton and Obama --- ????

Everything tied up with a bow now . . . or do you actually have TWO lousey candidates ---
both of them do NOT support single payer health care ---
both of them seem willing to privatize parts of Social Security --- which is the DLC position.

Is either talking about getting us out of Iraq NOW . . .?

Anyone telling you how dangerous Global Warming really is ---
Dangerous enough to nationalize our oil industry ---
and replace every gas-guzzler on the road with an electric car as fast as possible --- ???

And re this . . .
we will end up having McCain for president.

Let me also recommend that you stop with the FEAR-BASED comments ---

Democrats can win --- but not by being Republicans . . .

[AntiFascist]

205. Have you seen the latest estimates of what the war is costing us?

How can we afford any form of socialized health care, social security, or state-sponsored R&D in alternative energy when we have to pay for this continuing war? It can only lead to one result: the elites of the MIC win and the rest of us lose. Sorry, but there is a lot to fear in a McCain presidency, and a Clinton nomination will only unite the Republicans.

[defendandprotect]

230. $2 billion a day? $2 trillion so far?

Are you saying that you're in favor of Clinton and Obama's agenda for NO single payer and
privatizing SS?

Are you saying that Iraq is more dangerous to us than Global Warming . . . ?

The Pentagon disagreed with you in their secret memo to President Bush telling him that GW
was a bigger threat to our nation than "terrorism."

So -- basically in all of this we have insanity playing ....

Again --- if the Democratic Party can't win against the GOP THIS year, they might as well fold up shop!!!

What would prevent a Democratic win, however, would be the SAME problem that we had in 2000, 2002, 2004, and 2006 . . . i.e., ELECTION STEALS by the GOP.

Gore won the election in 2000 --- but he was pushed aside by fascist rallies and a corrupt Supreme Court ---

Do you think that can't happen again --- ???

And what have Democrats done since then to protect you from these vote steals and illegal dirty tricks?


PS: I certainly am not supporting a Clinton nomination ---
don't know what gave you that idea.
As Howard Dean has outlined it --- a vote for McCain would be a vote for four more years of Bush.
We have a citizenry 70% opposed to the war in Iraq.
Again -- if Democrats can't win this year --- close up shop!!

[AntiFascist]

233. No I am not saying any of things you mention in the first 2 paragraphs...

and it is debatable whether Obama or Clinton want to privatize SS.

What I am saying is that the amount of money our government is spending on war creates an incredible fascist force to be reckoned with, and yes it probably will manifest itself in election fraud.

We need to take this force seriously and any "fear-mongering" I promote is not intended to cause us to fold up shop, but to take this force seriously and understand why it is preventing us from pursuing Democratic social and environmental programs.

[defendandprotect]

234. You mean Obama says SS is in "crisis" . . .. which is a LIE ----

butthat doesn't matter to you---???

And, Clinton definitely has some kind of privatization in mind ...
I believe it's part of the DLC agenda, isn't it?

YES ... the MIIC is a threat to democracy and social stability ---
Eisenhower pointed that out at the end of his administration in 1960 ---
and it's not even as benign as just general corporate-fascism where we might think
that some products are useful ---
Bombs do nothing but harm people --- including the people who drop them, IMO.

Additionaly, I don't see how these criminals could vacate office without being sure that they
have someone coming in to cover up for their crimes.

You have to take the STEALING seriously and demand that Democrats respond to it appropriately --
Meanwhile, since 2000 they have done . . . NOTHING . . . . NOTHING -- !!!

I take fascism in America very seriously --- and have for 20 years that I'm aware of it!!!
I take election steals very seriously --- they've been going on since the mid-1960's when
the computers began coming in. See: Votescam, The Stealing of America
by Jim & Ken Collier, Journalists ---
In writing about elections, one of them decided to run for a local office ---
they immediately noticed their numbers were changed --- and it led to a long investigation
by them of computer election fraud.

They wrote a book which was suppressed, but their family keeps the website going and you
can read or scan the book there.
http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

You can't attain "Democratic social and environmental programs" if elections are being stolen.
And, I think you want to make that a small "d" ....

Again --- if the Democrats can't win this year --- presuming we have an honest election --
then they might as well fold up shop!

[No Blood for Hubris]

136. On the other hand, here are general and flag officers who ARE defending

Hillary Clinton's candidacy:


These are among the nearly 30 general and flag officers who have endorsed Hillary Clinton to be the Nation’s next President. Senator Clinton has received five endorsements in recent days, including those of General Henry Hugh Shelton, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral William Owens, the former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and Army Major General Antonio M. Taguba. Overall she has the endorsement of two former chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, five admirals and generals at the four-star rank. They are in addition to over 2,000 veterans and military retirees who are members of Senator Clinton’s national and state veterans’ steering committees.

The list of those taking part in today’s call is below.

General Wesley Clark
Admiral William Owens
General Johnnie E. Wilson
Lt. Gen. Joe Ballard
Lt. Gen. Claudia J. Kennedy
Vice Admiral Joseph A. Sestak
Lt. Gen. Frederick E. Vollrath
Major General George A. Buskirk, Jr.
Major General Paul D. Eaton
Rear Admiral Stuart Platt
Rear Admiral David Stone
Major General Antonio M. Taguba
Brigadier General Michael Dunn
Brigadier General Evelyn "Pat" Foote
Brigadier General John M. Watkins, Jr.
Brigadier General Jack Yeager
Former Secretary of the Army and Veterans Affairs Togo West
Former Secretary of the Navy, John Dalton

[defendandprotect]

191. Let's see. . .. how much $$$ has Clinton taken from the defense/weapons industry???

Could that have something to do with it . . .?????

[liberalhistorian]

137. Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen

and AMEN!! Thank you!!!

[ekwhite]

144. Thanks for a great post

I am worried that the Clinton campaign, under the influence of Wolfson and Penn, is engaging in scorched earth tactics that will take the Democratic party with them if they lose. If they win, they have already driven her negatives so high that it will be difficult for her to win against McCain, who just has to play the 'Maverick' act and coast to a win.

The current contest is driving away committed leftists - my nephew, for example, who has been a Democrat all his life, has just told me he is fed up with the Democratic party and joining the Socialists. :-(

I have been a proud yellow-dog Democrat all my life. I believe in the party of FDR and JFK. I will vote for Senator Clinton if she wins the primary, but I won't like it. I certainly won't work for her, or even put up a campaign sign in my yard, after the last two weeks.

[Homer Wells]

146. Very ELOQUENT post there, Iilana

You speak my feelings and concerns also.

Kicked and Recommended!!:kick: :pals:

[Horse with no Name]

147. All I have to say is

:rofl:

[ladym55]

148. I feel like we've been on the same journey

And since I actually READ posts, I got your point. Like you, I went from thinking Hillary was okay to being disappointed to wanting her to just go home before she wrecks anything else in her path.

You've articulated my own feelings and concerns fully and eloquently. I've watched two of Hillary's recent attacks on Obama (the plagiarism and the 3 am) go directly from HER campaign to the right-wing hate machine. That is no way to run a primary election. You don't attempt to win by leaving the entire party vulnerable in the general election.

[jayb1]

150. I'm done defending Hillary Clinton

Long time reader 1st time poster.I have gone from enjoying
this site to become bewildered at the sheer volume of
anti-Hillary feelings,some of it[a lot of it] simply degrading
and thrilling for her campaign difficulties.I may be like the
kid who picked up his toys and went home when he did'nt get
his way but I am damn close to sitting out this election and
not voting.The disrespect I see comes mainly from Obama
supporters but quite a bit from himself,MiChelle,and prominent
backers.The baby is going to get thrown out with the bath
water if this does not change and change quickly

[IowaGirl]

152. Republicans must be lovin'.....

this, snickering at us while we tear each other apart. Look, I was a Hillary supporter and was uncomfortable with Barack because I felt he was so new on the scene that I didn't know enough about him. So I researched BOTH of them a lot over the last couple of weeks and let's face it, neither of them are perfect.

Actually, they are pretty evenly matched in my book. They both have financial skeletons in their closets and I do feel sympathy for both of them in this regard. I think that even the most virtuous of politicians attract a criminal element anxious to use money to get something in exchange. It could be pretty easy to be taken in by someone who just seems like a "friend." They've both said and done things that I think they think are justifiable because they want to do good for the people as a whole. For Barack to include Hillary in the same breath with Bush is like saying that pepper and salt are the same just because they are both sitting on the table. It's really, really unfair.

I think Hillary will do right by us as a president and I think Barack will, too. I just think Hillary should be first because of her age and experience. This would be inspirational for women throughout the world. I really would like to see Barack as president, next, in 8 years. He can use that time to acquire more foreign relations experience. I look forward to children of all colors being able to believe they can achieve anything.

Try to keep an open mind and not let the ugliness of politics "as usual" disillusion you toward your fellow democrats. We've got to stick together for the sake of the good of this country. :dem:

[Meshuga]

154. I will vote for Clinton if she wins the nomination but

I have lost respect for her given the negativity of her campaign. I was leaning toward Clinton after Iowa but I have been turned off since.

[defendandprotect]

172. Then why create another level to the downward spiral . . .????

[classof56]

153. Ho hum! I don't often weigh in on all this, but may I just say--

All the fundie/evangelical/good catholic people I know, acquaintances and relatives, will rejoice on the day Hillary is finally reduced to rubble. She is, as they say, so unchristian and we can't have that--after all, our founding fathers declared this to be a christian nation! Of course, they won't support Barack either, him being a Muslim and all. (Don't believe 'em? Ask 'em!) Not to mention he won't recite the pledge of allegiance and turned his back on the flag. This of course leaves McCain, who I expect any day to announce his favorite political philosopher is his lord and saviour Jesus Christ and we will have come full circle. That's the bottom line for these folks and every negative thing that can be said about Hillary just reinforces their hatred for her and right about now I wish she'd step away and clear a path for Obama to be eviscerated by the righties and she can get some rest. Before anyone slams me too hard, let me simply say that I've just embarked upon my 8th decade on this earth, and am glad I got to see men walk on the moon and a woman make a run for the presidency. Whatever the future holds, however anyone feels about Hillary, she gave it a shot and for that I commend her.

Tired Old Cynic

[mtnsnake]

155. Since when did you ever defend Hillary Clinton? What a joke & look at all the suckers falling for it

[Carolina]

156. Touche! K&R

The kitchen sink, Mark Penn, Harold Wolfson, low road to the highest office!

Anything and I mean anything to win.

It's all about Hillary. Did you ever see her as upset or outraged about Bush, Iraq, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, loss of habeas corpus, etc. as she has been about campaign flyers and losing?!

[SayitAintSo]

158. There a books yet to be written about Obama campaign tactics...

Once they see the light of day, juxtaposed to the lofty rhetoric there will either be massive denial on a scale yet to be fathomed, or there will need to be a new 12 step program to handle the hoards recovering from Obama inflicted 'true believer-ism'.

[pafldemocrat]

159. A real learning experience

Normally, I don't work very hard at trying to dig up all the
facts about politicians during elections; cynically believing
that most tend to lie, or at least bend the truth, in trying
to reach their goal of obtaining an elected office. Because
all of the Democratic candidates seemed to me, at first, to be
truly worthy of office, I decided to study and learn before
deciding on which one would get my vote. Well, learn I did! I
learned that the media can take almost any spoken word, or
behavior, and cut it down and present it in such a way to
completely adulterate the original intent of the candidate (or
candidate's surrogate). I learned that the media can, and
does, decide who they back and present the news in a
completely biased manner; giving some candidates very bad
press while handing others pass, after pass. We who watch the
news are not being given news at all, but rather propaganda;
half stories, sound bytes that change the original intent of
the speaker, and hyped reports. I found that many of the
stories out there are similar to "urban legend",
passed along as truth but with very little factual backup; so
be sure to check the facts before you decide on anything that
is as important as electing a new president. I also learned,
much to my disappointment, how much racism is alive and well
and is involved in this primary; not on the white side,
either. Please view the recent "State of the Black
Union" and you will learn alot, as I did. The
participants clearly mandated that race should always trump
politics and that it is their intent that an African-American
will get the White House even if he is not actually the best
qualified. I have always felt "colorblind" myself
and never harbored any prejudice against anyone; and I truly
believed that our country was, overall, improving
significantly on that front. Sadly, watching the "State
of the Black Union" blew my hopes away. I also learned
that the choices we, Americans, make are easily swayed by
inspirational rhetoric and/or our biases toward/away from the
qualities toward which we feel most likened. So,I had to ask
myself some further questions. I had to be sure that my
decision would be based on facts and which candidate would
best serve our great country. I had to look beyond the
"trash" our media hands us. I had to look past the
"feel good" rhetoric. I had to pay no attention to
the hype. I did have to ask why a candidate who wants to
emphasize the future and break with the "politics of the
past" seems to make the main "sticking point"
one firmly rooted in that past; namely, a vote to back the
decision to go to war (a vote that was made, by the way,
trusting that the inspectors would be allowed to finish their
work there, prior; and which, of course, was never allowed to
be completed). I had to accept that some people are pushing a
certain candidate simply on the merits of his being a certain
race (although not much is said about him being part white)
and regardless of his connections with others who seem to
really hate our country. Although the remaining two candidates
are both people of which to be proud overall, I know that I
have done alot of homework, and alot of soul searching, and
feel my decision to back the candidate who is, undoubtedly,
strongest, most knowledgeable, and ready to get into that
White House and bring this country to greatness, once again,
is one of which I will be very proud and something that will
bring me solace in knowing that my decision was based on facts
and not mis-led by rhetoric-regardless of the primary outcome.

[IowaGirl]

162. Welcome, pafldemocrat!!!!

:hi:

[Darth_Kitten]

160. Whatever a woman does is always 10 times worse than when a man does it, huh?

Pity.

[iilana X]

175. That's sexist no matter how you mean it, sarcastic or not.

The idea that you shouldn't criticize bad behavior because it comes from a woman is sexist. The very premise of feminism is that we are to be treated as equals. I wouldn't want to be allowed to get away with something because I'm a woman and I wouldn't expect someone like Hillary Clinton to either. And you know what, I'll be she probably doesn't.

Pity is the word allright.

[0007]

163. Scaring people is what it is all about - funny video

http://www.youtube.com/v/eg_dw82CTkA

[TheDeathadder]

165. Thank you for no longer defending Hillary Clinton

God I hope Clinton wins.

[Rene]

166. You should be able to see that Obama is a product of the same king-makers that gave us GW

He's a manufactured, and slick packaged product.

GW also said he was an 'outsider' who would 'change' D.C.....and look what we got.
7 years of descending into hell.
an Obama admin will be 4 hears of chaos. He's bought and paid for by nuclear industry and others.

[Cha]

167. Sorry, but your post is just

stupid..typical from the hilarys, though.

[defendandprotect]

171. Obama will be like another four years of Jimmy Carter --- !!!

This is a candidate for Democrats who want nothing --- because that's what he's going to
give you --- and take back a heck of a lot, as well ---

Democrats have time to raise another candidate ---

think about it ---

[DDQ]

168. Oh come on Hillary supporters are smarter than that.

Who are you trying to persuade with this disingenuous post?

[defendandprotect]

170. How could you have ever had any respect for her DLC positions . . .

????

Meanwhile, we've said goodbye to both of the candidates who could have helped the party and America --- Kucinich and Edwards --- !!!

[iilana X]

186. Where is it said that I respected her DLC positions? I didn't and don't.

I'm truly sorry for you that you lost your favorite candidates. My two favorites never even entered the race, so I understand how you feel. I really like both Kucinich and Edwards and if it any consolation, their being in the race strengthened the party for us all. They both know the meaning of integrity. Don't give up on the Democratic Party. I truly doubt that either Kucinich or Edwards has.

[defendandprotect]

193. If you have no respect for a candidate's positions . . .how do you "respect" them????

Who was it you were hoping to have come in --- ??

Let me guess . . . Feingold? Ron Wyden?

And you make an excellent point here which I've been trying to get across to everyone who
wanted this damned thing tied up with a bow fast . . .

I really like both Kucinich and Edwards and if it any consolation, their being in the race strengthened the party for us all.

They just couldn't wait to get them out --- while it was these people who were lending balance
and reality to the debates/discussions.

I'm here because I am trying to NOT give up on the Demoratic Party ---
but you're in a downward spiral --- and still Democrats are willing to surrender even more
just to have Clinton or Obama!!!

Clinton is DLC and does NOT support single-payer health care ---
she will create a privatized system which will compete with Medicare ---
All we have to do is elminate the age restriction from Medicare and poof we can extend it to
everyone!!!

Obama same -- doesn't support single payer --- has crappy plan.

PLUS, both seem willing to suggest that SS is in "crisis" --- a right wing theme for decades now and a LIE. Hillary evidently supports some form of privatization of SS.

THIS is a Democratic agenda --- ???

No ... it 's a Republican agenda ---

[iilana X]

190. Where is it said that I respected her DLC positions? I didn't and don't.

I'm truly sorry for you that you lost your favorite candidates. My two favorites never even entered the race, so I understand how you feel. I really like both Kucinich and Edwards and if it any consolation, their being in the race strengthened the party for us all. They both know the meaning of integrity. Don't give up on the Democratic Party. I truly doubt that either Kucinich or Edwards has.

[defendandprotect]

194. If you have no respect for a candidate's positions, how do you "respect" them ... ????

If you have no respect for a candidate's positions . . .how do you "respect" them????
Who was it you were hoping to have come in --- ??

Let me guess . . . Feingold? Ron Wyden?

And you make an excellent point here which I've been trying to get across to everyone who
wanted this damned thing tied up with a bow fast . . .

I really like both Kucinich and Edwards and if it any consolation, their being in the race strengthened the party for us all.

They just couldn't wait to get them out --- while it was these people who were lending balance
and reality to the debates/discussions.

I'm here because I am trying to NOT give up on the Demoratic Party ---
I am here trying NOT to give up on the Democratic Party . . .

but you're in a downward spiral --- and still Democrats are willing to surrender even more
just to have Clinton or Obama!!!

Clinton is DLC and does NOT support single-payer health care ---
she will create a privatized system which will compete with Medicare ---
All we have to do is elminate the age restriction from Medicare and poof we can extend it to
everyone!!!

Obama same -- doesn't support single payer --- has crappy plan.

PLUS, both seem willing to suggest that SS is in "crisis" --- a right wing theme for decades now and a LIE. Hillary evidently supports some form of privatization of SS.

THIS is a Democratic agenda --- ???

No ... it 's a Republican agenda ---


The strength of the Final Solution was its secrecy, its impossibility...."

[iilana X]

232. Well, there is always Ralph Nader for you. n/t

[Blondiegrrl]

174. Great post. I've felt that way about her all along.

I'm glad more people are seeing her for what she really is. I don't trust her as far as I could throw her.

[meow mix]

178. i dont understand why she had to make me lose every shred of respect for her.

why did she do that?
:shrug:

wish she was more like boxer.

[Kittycat]

180. What an excellent post

I touched on this in a couple other posts I made today/tonight - but not nearly as eloquent and consolidated as you've done. Thank you so much for putting it out there like you have.

[Chisox08]

195. 100% agreed

I also defended Hillary in the real world because she is a democrat and I want a Democrat in the Whitehouse no matter who it is. The good thing about this election we had good candidates from top to bottom. Hillary was the one to come out with the negative attacks. The first straw was the race card when Bill stated even Jesse jackson won South Carolina. The last straw was that 3am ad. It looks like it was ripped directly from the Repukes playbook. I was expecting to see either John McCain or Rudy Gulianni at the end not Hillary Clinton. She also mocked Obama's message and his supporters calling us delusional. Her attacks or not hurting Obama but they are hurting the Domcratic party and our chances to win the Whitehouse which in turn is hurting this country. We can not afford to have McCain as President the country knows this as does the world. Republicans who are jumping sides are starting to realize that voting Republican is voting against themselves. One more thing in those red states that are going for Obama look at the first time voters Obama has an overwhelming majority of voters between the ages 18-30. That is something nobody has done before he has energized the electorait that is good for democracy. The largest lobbey in America is speaking and it is the American people and they are calling for Obama.

[FedUp_Queer]

197. Time to Grow the Fuck Up Kids

I'm an Edwards supporter. While I don't agree with the iilana X's sentiments exactly (I will defend Hillary and Obama still), I would be glad to vote for either one. But will relay an experience with a Hillary supporter on here that really left a bad taste in my mouth as far as her supporters go. Very early on, before any primary, I asked a Hillary supporter why he supported her. I figured it was a simple enough question. The response shocked me. I was laughed at, figuratively, of course. The supporter thought the nerve of me, an Edwards supporter, asking a Hillary supporter WHY he supported her was just over the top. His further response to my cajoling was "he" didn't have to defend his decision to me. That was fine. That was cool. True enough, he didn't. I don't think I asked an Obama supporter because he wasn't even on the radar screen at that point. That sense of entitlement that that person displayed left a bad taste in my mouth. As I have seen what has happened to these two campaigns, I've tried very hard to not let that supporter cloud my feelings about Hillary. There are things I like about Hillary, and there are things I like about Obama. I have not, frankly, found the arrogance displayed toward me by any Obama supporter that that Hillary supporter displayed toward me. I'm frankly skeptical about each candidate at this point. I think the sniping on here has just been ridiculously petty and vitriolic like nothing I've ever seen. But I will say this...I've not felt or seen the sense of entitlement from the Obama-ites the same way I've seen from the Clinton-ites. Every time someone tries to say something nice about the other or bring constructive criticism, the defensiveness and personal attacks just rear their ugly head. It's this bullshit by the two campaigns that has actually made me come as close as I've come to wanting to just sit out the election. I've beaten this horse, but I'm going to continue beating it. This crap about experience has to stop, because it's just an illusion. In 1992, the arguments against Bill were that he didn't have the experience that GHWB had. He had that "silly" campaign about "Hope." (Anyone recall the last line of his acceptance speech? HINT: "I still believe in a place called Hope.") This crap about Hillary being a status quo candidate is just BS, too. Hillary has been about change and pushing the barriers her entire life. What I'm trying to say (AGAIN) is the you all need to GROW THE FUCK UP!!! Let me be an example. You continue this silly and petty name-calling bullshit, and I'll vote, but I won't life a finger or contribute a penny to the nominee's campaign.

[idovoodoo]

198. I actually think it's kinda funny watching the rabid supporters act just like the freepers they

ridicule.
:D

[ClassWarrior]

235. Well said, friend. Welcome to DU.

:toast:

NGU.

[mirrera]

199. Wow! Same transition here. Well put. n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

200. I'll bet you never once defended Hillary.

[mysteryman2]

201. are you sad the media attacked hillary

do you feel you did your part as democrat by defending hillary in the media. it was ok to let the attacks occur on her but when it comes to barack it's not ok. thats a double standard. i don't understand your gripe she has come under the most attack.

here is my gripe.

she releases the red phone add. he comes back with the same add with a judgment spin. i said ok but it became clear it made him look fake. he basically clipped her add. it looks the same almost. just like the speeches and messages he has they are someone Else's, he could counter with a non look a like add. his anti war message it's not new howard dean had that. his speeches have been fake. he says he has the best judgment to answer the phone. let me tell you i don't believe him. his change message is a spin off kerry's message just a different catch phrase. if he has sutch good judgement why use others material. he has witty responses. but you need to look through it.

he has to be there to answer the phone. george bush took a vacation to texas before we were attacked on 911. he just had been elected. he was just having a good time. come to find out barack has been slacking on his current elected job. hillary discussed this in the debate.
he has to be there to answer the phone.

i tell you he is fake. noone knows what he is about. he reminds me of a car salesman. he could sell you anything and you would believe it. he cast votes to strategically go for the whitehouse who knows what he is about. he is good at giving speeches. at least hillary did her job she was elected for instead of just trying to go to the white house. what happened to ladies first. maybe i should get a bumper sticker that says ladies first hillary for precedent.

again if he has good judgement get your own messages and speeches. if you don't it makes you look like you have no problem solving skills. thats bad with no exsperience.

don't you think it's better to know about your candidate. meaning besides his auto biography. and meaning shouldn't he have some time in washington. he says there was political machine in washington and it's so bad. be reminded under democratic leadership gas prices were low we had better jobs. why put ever body in the same category including the democrats. the republicans messed up our gas prices jobs and money. as a part of this party i don't like being put in the same category as a republican. that washington political machine.

the iraq was lead by the hunt for biological weapons. partly looking for alqueda also. more on the facet of biological weapons. now as a team player if the cia and the president tells you there is biological weapons what would you do. ignore it or do do basically what barack said if he knew there was a credible threat in Pakistan he may bomb. the problem is what is credible intelligence. instead of blaming people who voted for the war blame the messenger bush.

the reality is all the cute speeches of well they weren't there until such and such voted is fine.
but after the russians pulled out of iraq alqueda took over, it's not even debated. osama needs a place to go he may move from where ever he may be there. some say intelligence says he is in Pakistan. how do we trust the intelligence after iraq. i respect hillary because she has given a solution intelligence reform. she has talked about the issues we want like what we would do with the department of homeland security and fema. expect the patriot act to come up again . it will what candidate can handle it.

i need to get this off my chest because there is allot of spin going on in this election. barack may be able to beat a republican. but my fear is they said anybody could beat bush la st election. a think a candidate with no foreign policy experience is a risk. it's a 50/50 he could loose. there are factors that have been not examined. what is some of the people going for hillary shift out of anger for the Republicans.

here are my fears.

1. the republicans trick us pull out of iraq.
2. do a fake anthrax attack.
3. plant weapons in iraq then it won't be in vain. it would be seen as a partial victory.
4. the terrorist attack. experience and the issue of barack not being effective in his current post
becomes a issue.
5. they catch osama.

in barack defense i have a few.
1. hillary could look weak she cries.
2. people are worried bill will troll in the white house.
there may be more let me think about it.

[mysteryman2]

206. faulty intellenge is to blame not those who voted

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x42955

[dbmk]

212. ooh..

"she releases the red phone add. he comes back with the same add with a judgment spin. i said ok but it became clear it made him look fake. he basically clipped her add. it looks the same almost."

And you don't think that was the point?

[lisainmilo]

207. Couldn't have said it better myself...n/t

[Hekate]

208. Good post, Iilana. Thanks. nt

[mysteryman2]

209. one

http://www.youtube.com/v/T-jCBk4IAFM

[guruoo]

211. Obama camp only getting a tase of it's own medicine from Hillary, IMO.

How soon we ...conveniently forget?

[geiger]

213. It's just too damn bad. I never tho't it would come to this either.

It would appear that if we are to buy into hrc's way of thinking, there's not supposed to be any more idealism or ideals anymore. i cant stomach it either.

[Apollo11]

215. STOP THE PRESS: Obama supporter accuses Hillary of underhand tactics!

I am shocked!

And outraged! :eyes:

[weezie1317]

216. Great post! You're very open and I'm sorry you're being flamed for it.

[IsItJustMe]

217. I was an Edwards supporter and really had no dog in this fight up until a few weeks ago. I think

HRC's tactics are horrible. I have completely been turned off by her abrasive personality. Of course I would still vote for her in the general, but would not look forward to it.

[BigD_95]

219. Great Post

and Im right there with you. I was a big fan of the Clintons & liked Hillary a lot but she has gone too far.

I hate to say this but I have little respect left for her.


The only good thing out of this is there wont be much left for the Republicans to use on him.

[mntleo2]

220. Hillary Works Against The Poor Too

...this is why I cannot see her as our nominee. If she does become the one, I will hold my nose and vote for her, but her work against poor women turned me off years ago. I was just lambasted for that in another thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2946651">DCScripts. I was called a "hater" for pointing out in The Nation no less, how Clinton, who calls herself a feminist has a long record of working against low income women and the poor (yeah right she's afeminist for upper class women, screw the rest of 'em lol). Oh God forbid that someone speak the TRUTH about her!

Hater? And this accusation is from a female professor who is so afraid of the Truth she refused to even read that article I gave her as a link. I thought these people were taught to have critical thinking, but evidently she did not get the memo lol. Rather than see the truth she would rather hide from it and pretend it does not exist ...now where have I seen this before, I wonder????

Soooo lemme see if this is what I hear this straight ...rather than looking the truth in the eye, it a Really Smart Argument to jump on someone who has some facts and tell them that because they told the truth about what a candidate actually did on record is now "hating" them?

(tapping my chin thoughtfully) I see ...

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[philly_bob]

226. There's spots of genuine humor in this thread, apparently good-natured.

Look at the series of messages responding #4, zzzzz.....

There's some other messages that are way over the top, but I appreciate the witty, allusive back-and-forth in that exchange.

[Diana Prince]

227. United in Nov

I hope that no matter who the nominee is that we all vote the Democratic ticket to get the country back on track. We have had 8 years of pure hell with the chimp in office.

[natrat]

228. how could anyone defend her with the scummy people in her campaign

[natrat]

229. the sad part is she will probabl steal it in ohio or wherever diebold controls

[anonymous171]

231. I feel the same way.

I was defending Clinton (at home and work) up until these "3 am" ads. I remember being soo angry when Bush aired those wolf ads back in 2004 and so I was fucking furious when I saw a democrat engaging in the same tactics as my worst repug enemy.