On CNN Dean made several things clear. Don't change rules in the middle of a primary.

[madfloridian]

And he used the FL and MI delegates as an example, as well as the superdelegates, saying they could be changed later if so desired. Not now. Firm on that.

He said Floridians themselves were not to blame, it was their "political leaders."

Wolf referred to an offer by Charlie Crist for helping with a do over. Now the DNC offered long ago to help Florida have do-over caucus. Florida said not just no, but hell no. Bill Nelson said it loudest.

Dean said it was a kind offer by Crist, and he would be willing to talk to them about it. That money was a problem with a caucus, so I gather Crist offered financial help. Missed that part.

He countered most attempts by Wolf Blitzer to get him to talk about our candidates by attacking John McCain.

Quote of the day:

"John McCain is a situational ethicist."

Powerful interview. So I say if lawsuits are all you have left, and you really must take it to the Supreme Court then you just have to do it, I guess.

Thanks, Howard Dean, for standing firm.

[jlake]

1. Howard Dean needs to step down immediately.

[Armstead]

3. Huh?

[Pryderi]

7. How DARE Howard Dean try to block Hillary's nomination! Dean has bought into the rw meme!

[jlake]

8. He is going to drive the party right into the ground. His severe partisanship for Obama

is not going over very well.

[madfloridian]

18. How do you get away with stuff like that here day after day after day???

Just wondering.

[liberalnurse]

122. It will cost a minimum of 10 million dollars.

Yo organize it...say by July 08 they can vote....If The Florida Democratic party pays for it.

I'm in then.

[madfloridian]

128. What are you talking about?

That has nothing to do with what I said.

[liberalnurse]

129. The re-vote is what you are wanting, correct?

Clarify if I missed the point.

[madfloridian]

136. I don't. It was offered by the DNC as a caucus...part of the rules

and it was refused by Bill Nelson. Most Florida leaders said hell no. I think the vote here now might go for Obama, where before it did not.

[liberalnurse]

144. A caucus is cheap but I personally find them

discriminating. Many elderly can not get out to a caucus venue for example. Then if you can't get off work, leave no transportation or child care...you don't get to vote. You have many with physical disabilities, such as hearing, vision speech, language barriers which do not serve their needs fairly in a caucus.

A Primary re-vote would be the only alternative as I see it. Yes, it would cost a bit, 10 million I was told.

[madfloridian]

149. I think another primary would be against the rules.

Only the caucus was offered. I don't think there should be a do-over at all...but I don't get to decide.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[movonne]

88. Maybe jaylake is a repug..or maybe a paid hillary person..

[liberalnurse]

147. That is so inappropriate.

[stop the bleeding]

22. You have to be joking

HD is one of the best leaders we have in the DEM Party

[cali]

23. He has NOT been a partisan for Obama. That is completely false

He has been scrupulously fair and he's been a great advocate for both of them. It's completely twisted to try and claim that he's been pro-Obama in the primaries. Furthermore, the state chairs love him. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[SoFlaJet]

31. Don't you know Cali

that according to Hillary supporters the WHOLE WORLD is against poor wittle Hillary-I've NEVER ever seen a candidate and her supporters play the victim for so long and still try and sell the idea that she is being treated unfairly but EVERYONE....2 more days 2 more days

[dkf]

30. Severe partisanship for Obama? You have got to be joking!

Dean has been absolutely non-biased.

The interviewer couldn't even get him to talk about the Dem candidates. He went after McCain instead!

Nothing will make you people happy except gaming the system for Hillary.

Ick Ick Ick. I can't stand it no more.

[karynnj]

33. He has been neutral and has actually rarely spoken on Obama or Clinton

while the primaries have been going on. That's why there were many people who were asking "Where's Dean?"

[havocmom]

34. Standing by the pre-agreed to rules, now that they work against HRC is NOT sever partisanship

:rofl:

What, a referee has to be on HRC's side or he is on the other guy's side? How about RULES?

It is not Dr Dean who is attacking, mocking, swinging wildly/blindly, changing directions faster than a windsock in a tornado; that is team Clinton, from the highest paid advisers one down the chain of the (LESS than) national campaign.

How many races in a row has HRC lost? Each time it makes her angrier and less effective.

Somebody is harming the party. It is NOT Dean.

[dkf]

36. Yeah if you can't agree to manipulate the rules in Hillary's favor you

are obviously biased. What a load of crock.

[havocmom]

63. How do we help others understand if HRC needs to break rules to win, she has lost?

America probably doesn't want another RULE BREAKER in the WH. Seems most Americans have learned that particular lesson during the past 7+ years.

[dkf]

108. Yeah I don't like her propensity to get around rules.

It bothers me a lot. Very convenient set of ethics of you ask me.

[havocmom]

117. I used to rather like Hillary. Couldn't fathom why so many others didn't

Now, I have my own reasons from disliking her. Her picks for top advisers tops the list of reason. She is getting some bad advice and tactics. Really bad advice and tactics.

Winning isn't everything if you have to do ANYTHING to win.

[JVS]

38. He has been playing by the same rules since the beginning, which is the only way NOT to be partisan

The man has integrity!

[Zachstar]

Agreed

Clinton and Her supporters need to back off and wait till after the GE to start a process to get things fixed. Not change the game halfway when it might benefit them.

This has been the most disgusting race I have seen in my life. I look forward to it ending soon.

[backscatter712]

55. How dare Dean let Obama use the 50-state strategy.

Don't they understand they're not supposed to be blowing the doors off the pre-coronated princess?

[Zachstar]

64. Your tinfoil hat needs repair, jlake!

Geez! I cant wait for some you batshit crazy Clinton supporters to calm down after Clinton exits.

[caledesi]

87. Huh? Dean is a "by-the-book" guy. NT

[Thurston Howell III]

99. What's the matter crybaby! Hillary's perfect campaign didn't work for you??

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

109. Part of Hillary's scorched earth team? Attack fellow Dems, DNC, Party Chair?

The rules were set forth before the primaries.

Hillary spent all of her money on her consultants instead of building up a grassroots
and ground level effort.

Obama spent his money building up the ground level effort.

[milkyway]

126. Ridiculous kneejerk comment. Have you noticed how many people are coming out to vote for Dems? By

every statistical measure--voting, fundraising, registration--the Dem party is stronger than it has been in decades.

[Why Syzygy]

151. Dean is the guy that SAVED the party.

Look into some current history. The DLC are the ones to blame for the party uglies.

[jlake]

167. I support the DLC over vapid populism any day.

[Why Syzygy]

168. You're wearing the right sign then. Elitism is sooo much better.

[madfloridian]

171. You remind me on someone...

Hmmm...trying to figure it out.

[jlake]

176. ???????

[caligirl]

169. You have to go do your research on 2004 and 2004 . Or maybe your a DLC lover of corporate power .

[democrattotheend]

183. I have no doubt in my mind that he voted for Obama today, but...

he has been fair as DNC chair. All of the candidates signed onto the rules for Florida and Michigan.

[dkf]

6. Yeah anyone not complying with Clinton wishes must be terminated immediately!

And that Howard Dean, he never was a Clintonite. Double negative for him.

[jlake]

12. If that is how you see it....

He is completely out of his league - and whoever wins will PROMPTLY replace him.

[dkf]

24. In your dreams...

[jlake]

43. You know Hillary would.....and there is no doubt Obama would as well.

[Cassandra]

72. That's why Hillary is not my preferred candidate...

because the DLC has led us over a cliff. If you don't see the good that Dean has done then you are just as dim as the lame campaign team Hillary assembled.

[dkf]

86. I don't know if Obama would. If he is as smart as I think he is he won't.

[jlake]

101. Dean won't be around after the election. Watch for it.

[dkf]

106. Someone below said he plans to step down anyway.

I find that sad.

But maybe Obama can convince him to stay!

[madfloridian]

133. No, he said he wouldn't. You can breath a sigh of relief.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080317/berman

However, the ones who do the electing have already petitioned him to stay...they read it at the last DNC meeting...still on C-Span.

[cali]

50. He's already said he's stepping down after the election

to the great disappointment of the state chairs. And Hilly's attempted coup failed miserably. Fuck the DLC type she would have put in if she'd been the nominee. And it's delusional to the max to claim he's out of his league. Almost everyone by the hillybots acknowledge that he's done a great job. hmm. wonder why the hillybots hate him so?

[jlake]

52. I have never liked Dean. I supported Kerry in 04. I disliked him when I supported Biden in 08

and now that I have shifted my support to Sen Clinton.
It is not a "Hillbot" thang. It is a not liking Dean thang.

[cali]

LOL! And now you hate Kerry too.

What perfect symmetry.

[jlake]

66. I don't hate Kerry.... why don't you search my posts.

I said I strongly disagreed with his endorsement, but begged others not to trash a great man.

[madfloridian]

62. Who do you love? Or do you just hate? Or somewhere in between

I know you get apoplectic when I post about Dean. :shrug:

[Thurston Howell III]

100. Maybe he'll run in 2012!!

[dkf]

89. He did? That is so disappointing.

It must have been rough for him though, all that travel.

[WyLoochka]

127. Dean is much smarter than

all of them put together. The people who would replace him are demonstrated losers. They had their chance - they just about ran the party for two decades and the results were devasting. They lost Congress in '94 - they lost in '00, they lost in '02, and they lost in '04.

They racked up all those losses by totally ignoring and dissing millions of Democrats who don't happen to live in deep blue states.

I live in the mountain west - we have seen our local party and state party grow by tenfold since Dean has been Chair of the DNC. Dean was/is right about how to build the party and they are dead wrong - the proof is in their string of losses cited above.

You just spew things that make no sense at all - talk about being completely "out of league."

[PassingFair]

152. Don't sell them short...they dissed "deep blue" state dems, too.

The peeps in Michigan aren't very happy with the
Democratic party.

Nafta and our sell-out DLC governance here have
alienated MANY democrats.


Support the DNC.
Support DFA.

[cali]

10. Howard Dean has been the best thing that's happened to the dem

party in the last 3 years. And he won't step down until after the election, so you'll just have to get used to that fact. Any dem who demands that Howard step down and doesn't realize what an incredible job he's done, isn't really a dem. At all.

[skooooo]

19. love Howard!

:kick: :loveya:

[bicentennial_baby]

11. Total BS

We finally have a DNC chairman who can do more than just raise money, but since he's upsetting the Clinton camp by doing his job, he needs to step down.

Fuck that noise. :thumbsdown:

[jlake]

15. He has cost the party any chance of winning FL in the GE - really smart.

[madfloridian]

27. Florida did that. You actually are filled with hate toward one person.

You will say anything.

[yourguide]

39. Hardly, you forget that FL was also stripped

of half of it's republican delegates as well.

[cali]

26. I'll be a ditto head for that sentiment, n/t

[PassingFair]

155. !

:applause:

He's running an honest primary election. Something we're
not used to!


This sounds silly, but I have a picture of HD at
my desk, and another one on the side of my refrigerator.

When I feel like I'm LOSING (most of the time)....
I get a glance at Howard in my peripheral vision and
it helps me to remember that change doesn't always
happen on schedule.

It helps to remember the work of these ladies, too:

Susan B and Elizabeth C



Neither one lived to see women get the vote, but both
were responsible for it.

(I have their pictures in my kitchen) Bigger than ROCK STARS,
as far as I'm concerned!

[writes3000]

14. Why - other than the fact that you want Clinton to win?

What has he done that was underhanded or against the rules?

I trust him that he will make sure the voters of FL and MI feel heard. But he's not going to let those results decide the nomination and he is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

Let's see if any states in the future decide to go rogue this way. I doubt it.

Go Dean!

[Forkboy]

17. Awwwww

What Dems will be left that you still like after this race? Kennedy? nope. Dean? nope.

You got enough buses for all the bodies you're going to toss under it because they dare oppose your wishes? :freak:

[jlake]

I don't take a loyalty oath to politicians.

Lord knows they don't keep up their end of the bargain.

[Forkboy]

121. That's the most sensible thing you've said yet.

Now you're getting it.

[havocmom]

25. Nope. This current campaign season proves his methods resonate with voters

The McAuliffe/DLC wing's methods being proved a failure... yet again. They have tin ears and are not hearing what Americans are saying.

There are 50 states and all are important. Listening to ALL is how you build winning coalitions. Just addressing those who already agree with you is NOT progress, nor is it Progressive.

The Doctor is good for the Party & good for America.

[JVS]

35. No he doesn't, but how about we compromise and have him do it once Hillary drops out.

[From The Left]

41. Shame on you, Hillary Clinton!

She knew the rules when she ran ads in FL and MI. She knew the delegates wouldn't count. Now she's whining about a lawsuit to reverse the party and snatch delegates that never existed.

Shame on you, Hillary Clinton!

[havocmom]

46. Hillary wins where there was no contest taking place because of rules violation

Her supporters make silly, infantile demand that rules be changed after the game.

:wtf:

Shame on her rule breaking advocates too!

[crispini]

44. Ah, bullshit. nt

[sendero]

58. god..

... you are officially the biggest moron on this board. Dean is the best thing that's happened to the Dem party in a long time.

[jlake]

61. I thought that was Obama?

[cliffordu]

73. 'Specially

Since the local yokel Florida democratic party LEADERS are the ones that decided to make the rules as they went along. The National DNC warned them not to move the goalposts....UH....dates of their primary......but, like a certain woman's campaign, they thought they OWNED the process...The Democratic party at the national level needs to hold their ground on this to maintain credibility nationwide.....


(RED PHONE RINGS)

"Can ya hear me now??"

Hillary needs to give this stuff about Fla. and Michigan up....

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

90. Obama not black enough, BO too black, Rules not fair, Dean not Fair, Media picking on Her, Words!

[jefferson_dem]

91. Absolutely, the most inane post i've read in a while.

Speaks for itself.

[Thurston Howell III]

95. GREAT! Then he can run in 2012!!

We will then eat you alive!!

[jlake]

97. lol. He clearly can't win a primary.

[Thurston Howell III]

102. He will now! Besides Hillary is going to lose! Looks she can't either!

Since she will lose maybe she can be DLC head!

[jlake]

103. lol. Dean is not very well liked outside of the DC elites.

[madfloridian]

138. That's funny...he has huge support outside of DC.

A huge base of non-insiders.

[jlake]

141. roflmao!

[lojasmo]

111. Are you nucking futz?

The fifty state strategy is absolutely necessary for a healthy party.

That it doesn't benefit your candidate is just too bad.

[Crunchy Frog]

112. Yes. The entire universe must revolve around the interests of Hillary Clinton.

:eyes:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

115. sore loser?

[jlake]

156. That'll be my question to you when Obama gets his clock cleaned in the GE - after

the media turns against him in a BIG way.

[Tropics_Dude83]

120. Let's Bring back Terry Mcalullife

I so enjoyed getting crushed in the 2002 and 2004 elections with him at the helm. Remember, the repub congressional landslides in 2002/2004?

Fun times.

[Forkboy]

132. LMAO...well, that went over like a fire at an orphanage.

How to lose friends and influence nobody. :rofl:

[jlake]

145. I call 'em like I see 'em.... and get little accomplished - like Kucinich - we are right but not

very popular with the in crowd DC establishment.

[Forkboy]

154. You're like Kucinich like Bush is like Dr Spock.

[berni_mccoy]

153. Spoken like a true Democrat. NOT!

[LSK]

164. you are really crazy

[anonymous171]

179. You must be from the DLC.

[Armstead]

2. The Florida governor said it would be a state financed election

[madfloridian]

9. Thanks, I missed that.

Dean offered the state party nearly a million, but they do NOT want a do over here in Florida.

[Jack 4 Ohio]

56. I didn't hear that either nt

[stellanoir]

4. "John McCain is a situational ethicist."

LOL

Great one. Thanks

[Adelante]

5. It was an excellent interview nt

[skooooo]

13. You mean Hillary can't change the rules??!

Wow, she's screwed now.

:rofl:

[UALRBSofL]

16. I'm sorry but here in florida

He has lost all credibility among the general population of Florida. For The Record, Charlie Crist said it wasn't fair for our votes not to count and our delegates should be seated accordingly. And Dean is aware of what Crist said and just blew him off like "who cares what Crist thinks, he's a republican". Dean came off smug and authoritative.

[madfloridian]

21. That is a lie.

He is respected by people who disagree with him.

[cali]

29. The Hillarites hate Dean now

it's disgusting.

[madfloridian]

32. They are to the point of lying about him now. That is sad.

.

[jlake]

40. I have disliked him for a VERY long time. I don't hate him though.

[madfloridian]

45. You are spreading hate toward him here. You lied about his neutrality

on that interview. I don't believe he even mentioned names. He kept turning it to attack McCain.

Telling lies like that are harmful, and I don't see how you get away with it.

[jlake]

49. Last week when he alluded that the race was nearing an end... you don't think that

was inappropriate? I sure as heck do.

[madfloridian]

51. No, he was right. The race is ending, but there are some who refuse to accept it.

And there are some who would rather take it to the Supreme Court.

[jlake]

53. It wasn't his place to say such things as a "neutral" leader.

[madfloridian]

57. So you agree the race is nearly over?

[jlake]

69. No, I disagree with that. And the only way to interpret what Dean said would be for

Hillary to drop out... since she may win in OH & TX that is not necessary and his comments were not only partisan but inaccurate.

[JVS]

75. That's not Dean saying to drop out, it's reality.

It's coming to an end.

[jlake]

76. yes it is. Hillary is about to lock this up! Go Hillary!

[JVS]

82. Nice Bunker mentality.

[cali]

83. Suurre she is. *pat* *pat*

she's going to win big on Tuesday. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[JVS]

84. Better start hiding the knives now.

[Yael]

59. Because shortly the math will take over from the emotions

Get your head out of the clouds.

[UALRBSofL]

47. jlake I agree with you

I didn't like him back then and I don't like him now. As a matter of fact, I was for Kerry in 04, not Dean, even though Kerry voted in favor of IWR.

[SoFlaJet]

37. BULL-SHIT

you see it's crap like this-these kinds of blanket statements from Hillary people that prove they are still not getting it-they have no idea of what is happeneing on the street with democrats. Howard Dean is a hero to every democrat except the ones who love the DLC's obsolete tactics-like the Clintons, Carville and this poster here

[jlake]

74. Elevating politicians to hero status is not healthy.

[madfloridian]

77. That's what we have been trying to tell you Hillary supporters.

.

[jlake]

78. I don't know anyone who thinks Hilly is a hero.

[JVS]

104. I found some people who think she's a hero.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4845806&mesg_id=4845806

[jlake]

107. Ok. Everyone has their opinion. I will go add a comment.

Edited to correct - thank you JVS.

[JVS]

110. Maybe you should go into the thread and tell them how you feel. They wrote their opinions.

[JVS]

113. That's much nicer than calling them trolls

[jlake]

116. Yeah - and I edited again to thank you for tipping me off.

[NashVegas]

92. This Hillary Supporter Thinks You're Entirely Out of Line

Dean did everything he could to keep Florida from going maverick. Furthermore, if the Obama campaign is leading because they were smart enough to key into the groundwork he was laying for the Dem party, Hillary's people need to learn from it rather than shoot the messenger. If Dems win in red states this November, Dean's work is going to be a huge part of the reason, just as it was in 2006.

[madfloridian]

130. Nice post, good points.

:hi:

[yourguide]

42. No, it's Bill Nelson and the other head dems in FL

who have to say yes to a do over in florida, Dean even offered to front some money for a caucus. Crist offered a do over and offered to finance as Governor it but it's Nelson who is a staunch HRC supporter who keeps saying NO.

[Cassandra]

81. Nelson might try acting like a Democrat...

for a change, instead of the raging, egotistical DLCer that he is.

[Binka]

79. You Talking About Credibility? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[madfloridian]

28. I don't want a do-over...but that's just me.

I think it should stand as is. But since it was already offered and turned down by Florida...then they will look bad if they turn one down by the governor.

I don't think we deserve a do-over.

[yourguide]

48. I agree

at this point there shouldnt be one, the whole point of them moving the election up was so they could have more influence in the process.

allowing a redo now would essentially do just that and reward them for breaking the rules.

[Johnny__Motown]

94. The rules are the rules, that is the whole point, and a "firehouse" caucus is within the rules

Maybe it should be held after June 7th so as to reduce it's influence on the race, but we can't deny them a "do over" just because we don't like it. The rules are the rules.

[yourguide]

118. they werent denied a do-over

they declined a do-over, over and over again. Dean offered to fund caucuses for both states both said no, Bill Nelson who is an ardent HRC supporter has been the loudest NO out of Florida. He wants them seated as is.

Their own leaders hijacked the process and are now trying to hijack the vote by insisting the delegates should be seated.

[JVS]

70. Florida's state politicians certainly don't deserve one, but for the sake of the people...

it would be nice if they'd just do one to stop the fighting.

As long as they follow the rules.

[madfloridian]

54. I don't think Dean mentioned our candidates by name, so don't fall for lies

about his neutrality. It is a form of denial, I guess...having to spread lies and hatred.

Very sad.

[Cha]

68. hilary must be portrayed as the victim..

maybe she'll get the sympathy vote like she did in NH.

I wonder what Dean will do next after he steps down from the Dem Chairmanship? And, who will they get next? Jeeze, I hope it's not some dino.

[paulk]

60. I really don't see how the party can disenfranchise the

millions of voters in MI and FL.

This goes beyond the primaries - you just can't say to these people "your votes don't count". Some kind of compromise needs to be reached, here.

[madfloridian]

65. eeeeeeeeek

[yourguide]

71. As bob shrum said on MTP today

The MI primary was a "soviet style vote with one candidate on the ballot".

Not sure how you can seat the MI delegates as is.

Also Dean offered money for a caucus in both states, dems in both states said NO deciding to play chicken...

[paulk]

80. if the votes of those two states are going to decide the

nominee, a revote is going to have to happen. Especially in Michigan. Somehow, someway.

It looks like neither candidate will have the votes to win on the first ballot.

There's a lot of time between now and the convention - even if it means the DNC has to run new primaries, they can't just say -"you broke the rules, now you don't get a voice in choosing the nominee".

Surely something can be worked out, but to just say "no" is not an option, IMHO.

[yourguide]

85. Well, now the issue is

Both states moved up their primaries to try to influence the election. The DNC slapped them down, then to make the very effort you are speaking of in not disenfranchising the voters he offered to pay for a re-do, a caucus in both states...both state party leaders said no multiple times. NOW that those states could be in a position to decide the nominee they are welcoming the thought of a re-do?

That rewards those states for not playing by the rules and gives them exactly what they wanted in the beginning, the power to decide the election.

If NO wasnt an option then why did they keep saying no?

[paulk]

137. there is still time to resolve this before the convention

it's the DNC's job to resolve this, and I still maintain that the DNC cannot afford to tell the voters in those states that they don't have a say in this election.

Just saying "no" is not going to cut it. From either side.

[madfloridian]

143. Don't fret don't worry...Dimaio and Steinberg will save the day!!

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1871

[yourguide]

157. The DNC HAS tried to resolve this...

it's not the DNC saying no, it's the state dems. the DNC offered to pay for a caucus, Bill Nelson who is a rabid HRC supporter said no over and over again. He wants them seated as is.

This doesnt fall back on Dean, he has tried to resolve this fairly, fair being the operative word here. It's the FL state dem heads who want what they want when they want and to hell with the rules.

[jlake]

177. Ah, good ol' Bob "haven't won one yet" Shrum.

[Crunchy Frog]

123. Well, Hillary agreed with it before she disagreed.

If she didn't like it, she should have spoken up about it before the primaries.

[paulk]

135. I don't see this is a matter between Hillary and Obama

I see it as a matter of over two million voters being shut out of their right to have a say in choosing their party's nominee.

That is a foolish thing for the DNC to do. It runs counter to everything I believe the Democratic Party stands for.

-------------


I don't think any of the candidate's liked what was going to happen in Florida and Michigan - as far as "speaking up about it" it's a decision of the DNC, not the candidates, anyway. What everyone seemed to be hoping beforehand was that neither state would end up playing a role.

[Crunchy Frog]

139. Maybe it was a foolish thing to do

but the time to change it would have been before the primaries began. It's completely wrong to change the rules after the fact, especially when it so cleary benefits one candidate over the other. I would feel just as strongly about it if it were Obama who would benefit. It just is not right to change the agreed upon rules mid-game.

If people think that this policy is wrong, then we should work to get it changed for the next primary season.

[madfloridian]

170. It was simply a party committee enforcing rules.

Your stance is losing its credibility.

[madfloridian]

67. Stop saying "disenfranchised"... it's a lie spread by Florida Dems

when they started their attack on Dean.

[hulka38]

93. Down with the courageous visionaries who stood against the war!

This is the pattern developing with the commentary coming from the likes of jlake and the other Hillary supporters. Screw Durbin and Kennedy and Boxer and the others. They're so self-righteous I can't stand it. Sure, they were right about the most important issue in a generation in spite of enormous pressure to concede to Bush, but that doesn't mean that I should respect them or even like them. In fact, I HATE THEM!!!!

[Johnny__Motown]

96. wow. pretty strong for a 4th post.. got a good laugh out ouf it.

[hulka38]

114. Thanks Johnny.

Let me ask you something. I don't have enough posts to start a thread or even send private messages. The run-up to the Iraq war and compliance from so many Democrat politicians and the media was very depressing for me to say the least, and I suspect the same for you. I'd like to start a thread asking Hillary supporters, would the Dems that voted against the IWA be able to convince people that they were actually in favor of the war had it been a cake walk and we found some aging chemical agents in rusting drums. Or would their political careers been ruined. What would be their refuge? Anyway it's an angle I haven't seen here and I think that would be a good discussion. I have enormous respect for all the Dems who stood up, especially the ones who had to vote or were running for national office.

[havocmom]

125. Welcome to DU

You have mail

[PassingFair]

159. Believe it or not, hulka, some of us have been hashing this issue out since...

before the IWR, and the bottom line is that the
senators and reps that voted NO did so because
they knew

a) that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11

and

b) that Iraq was NOT A THREAT to us, chemically,
militarily or in a nuclear sense.

The YES voters voted yes in a CYNICAL attempt to
play both sides of the aisle. IF, as you say,
the invasion had been a "cakewalk" (which was an
IMPOSSIBILITY, by the way) they could claim credit.

If it went horribly awry, killing HUNDRED OF THOUSANDS
they could count on the bullshit language of the resolution
and claim they were not "authorizing" war by voting YES
on a WAR RESOLUTION....

Screw ALL of the yes voters, they deserve to be taken
out via attrition, and they HAVE been, to some extent.

Kerry and Edwards have AT LEAST admitted their stupidity,
but people who have profited from this, like Diane Feinstein,
MUST GO.

After all, what was Joe Lieberman's real crime?
He did nothing that Hillary has not done, and continues to do.

[madfloridian]

140. Heh heh

:hi:

[jlake]

162. Why do you have Boxer on that list? She is a Hilly supporter!

[smiley_glad_hands]

98. The Dean haters do themselves no favors.

HRC overplayed her hand by going after Dean.

[TriMetFan]

105. I have always thought Dr. Dean was a special man,

but I think this is one of the times he missed the boat. Anyone that has been up on the way the States were jockeying them-self knew this kind of bull shit was going to happen. Dr. Dean should have changed the the way we vote to some kind of regional voting, like east coast in Feb. mountain in March, Central in April and west coast in May. Or he could have just said that every state could vote what ever date they wanted, but not before Feb 2nd. How hard would that been? But now it seam that some want FL. and MI to do a do over. These 2 state voted and weather Obama took his name of the list in MI that was his thing and what others forget his that he had Ads in FL on the Cable ch. using the back door to do this. So I just do not get why punish FL and MI. This whole mess will hurt the Democratic Party in the end.

[madfloridian]

119. They got two more states added to the pre-window.

A massive change like regional primaries is not going to happen overnight unless the right people want it.

Dean has openly supported changing to regional rotating primaries, but he can not do it alone.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1623

[TriMetFan]

150. Well then he should let

the vote in FL and MI count and just keep on going on with the elections.

[high density]

148. It would be nice if the collective outrage from the Clinton camp

spills on beyond this primary and changes the way our next primary is handled. I wouldn't mind seeing a much more compressed schedule and the abolishment of the caucuses.

[TriMetFan]

158. I have always been in favorer of changing

the way election are held. oh and by the way some of us so called Hillary supporter were at one time very big Obama backers. And I will tell you why I switched from Obama to Hillary. 1. I have never liked the way he has look down at her like she is a piece of shit or talked down to her. Those looks that he has given her from the get go are the main reason why I switched. We do not need another egoistical man in the White House. And that is what I feel we will end up with. Sorry if you don't like that. 2. Resco Resco Resco 3. Donnie McClurkin! I know that most of the Obama supporters don't care one way or another about this, but I do care. I don't need to vote for some one that is willing to have a gay bashing fool on stage speaking and then Obama never denounced this guy, but he can denounce Louis Farrakhan. oh that is right Hillary held Obamas feet to the fire about that.

[Debi]

124. I {heart} Howard!

Man, what he could have done as our President. x(

I thought he looked great, mad, and sounded strong.

Thanks :hi:

[madfloridian]

131. He has not given an interview that strong in a very long time.

He sounded like he meant every word.

[milkyway]

134. Howard was great as the attack dog going after McCain's supposed great strength--his integrity.

Finally the Dems have learned how to play the game. Obama, of course, will have to practically salute every time he mentions McCain, but people like Dean can go at him hard without the niceties.

[madfloridian]

142. Watch this speech. He says he will be on the offensive...no defense.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2948859&mesg_id=2948859

[high density]

146. That was a great interview with Howard Dean

Blitzkrieg: "So what do you think of the fighting in the Democratic party"
Dean: "Well, John McCain ..."

Perfect way to play the corporate media.

I'm afraid Florida screwed themselves this time around. I was happy to hear Dean with his levelheaded discussion of not changing the rules mid-game.

[PassingFair]

160. He really cuts through the crap, doesn't he!

Always exciting to see and hear Howard standing
up for America.

He is NOT backing down!

[lojasmo]

161. Though this thread has been effectively jacked by two Clintonistas....

Dean gave a great interview.

[madfloridian]

173. Hijacked...

yes, aren't they always? It really was a great interview. He looked like he enjoyed giving it.

[LWolf]

163. I agree.

Has he spoken at all about the broken, undemocratic primary process, the disenfranchisement of late primary voters, and how to address the issue as soon as this primary is done?

[madfloridian]

165. Yes, he has spoken about it. Just could not do much in 4 years about it.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1623

He supports regional rotating primaries.

[LWolf]

166. That's encouraging.

It wouldn't be necessary to have rotating primaries if we just didn't count any votes until the polls closed for the very last primary.

In order for that to be effective though, we'd have to ban all polls, so that what other people did didn't affect voters' choices. That's a tall order.

[axordil]

172. Banning polls...

...has GOT to be unconstitutional. First amendment and all that.

I kind of like the "ladder" approach I've seen kicked around in various places, where there's six or seven tiers two weeks apart or some such, starting with small states and ending with CA and NY. Small states keep some pull, since they come early, but it's so back-loaded delegate-wise that it's impossible to win until near the end.

[LWolf]

174. Banning polls:

I don't know if it is unconstitutional; it's certainly necessary if you want people to vote for the person they think is best, rather than the person they think everyone else is voting for. Polls can be used to manipulate elections, which ought to be unconstitutional.

There are other ways, of course. You could have one national primary day, just like the presidential election. That's only equitable if you ban outside money, and publicly fund all campaigns. Equally. Along with prohibiting any outside groups from campaigning, and mandating equal press/media time. That and IRV would do the trick.

[madfloridian]

175. The video is up at Raw Story.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Howard_Dean_John_McCain_flawed_candidate_0302.html

[Dr. Strange]

180. Cool. Thanks madfloridian!

[madfloridian]

178. Don't change horses in the middle of a stream..

Don't change rules in the middle of a primary.

[madfloridian]

181. Dean just made it very clear again on CNN today..FL and MI can't change the rules now.

You do not change the rules in the middle of the primary. Amen.

[Zhade]

182. And he was right. CHEATING isn't allowed. Sorry Clinton.

Deal with it.