For those who insist that gender discrimination has NOT been a FACTOR

[pnwmom]

in Hillary's race for the Presidency, please explain:

How is it that of 100 Senators, only 16 are women? And that even among Democrats, there are 37 men and only 11 women? And that similar proportions obtain in the House?

Why do we pretend that there is a level playing field in the Presidential race, when there clearly isn't even a level playing field at the state level?

[Radical Activist]

1. I'm sure there is discrimination

just as there is against Obama, the only black person in the Senate. That doesn't make Clinton the best candidate.

[pnwmom]

10. I never said it made her a better candidate, did I?

But seeing the misogyny, both in the MSM, and especially here on DU, has been very discouraging.

And I wish people could stop denying that it's real and start figuring out how to fix it. What I hear are a lot of people saying, oh, no, I'm no sexist. I'd be happy to support Barbara Boxer, for example. But Barbara Boxer has spoken at length of her own experiences with sexism. And I'm convinced, if she were running, she'd be going through that gauntlet again.

[John Q. Citizen]

17. misogyny and sexism aren't equivalent terms.

[pnwmom]

39. No, they aren't. But they are related terms, and they have both

been demonstrated in abundance during this campaign.

[John Q. Citizen]

55. I disagree that they are related terms.

Misogyny mean the irrational hate of women, all women. It is quite rare among both sexes.

Sexism means the prejudged roles, abilities, and attributes based on someones gender.


My neighbor, for instance, was disturbed when her young son wanted to play with his older sister's dolls. She forbid it based on her belief that playing with anthropomorphically feminized dolls was "wrong" for a boy child. That's sexism.

She isn't a misogynist, however. She doesn't irrationally hate all women.

[babylonsister]

2. It's been that way for years. Now, because a woman is running, she

should be elected? YUCK! Vote for the BEST CANDIDATE IN YOUR OPINION! Forget gender and race, because I guarantee you, whomever wins the election, it will be historic.

[pnwmom]

6. Yes, it will be historic either way.

But I think Hillary is facing more of an uphill battle being a woman than Barack is, being a person of mixed race.

[babylonsister]

14. Well, I disagree. Please read me on this: I am a white woman,

52 years old, I would love to vote for a woman, but Senator Clinton isn't the one. Granted, I don't like her, but I don't trust her also.
As for a black man making it this far, I'm not voting for his color, I'm voting for him and his message. What a message - to me - that things might get better! I also think the rest of the world could be mightily impressed if Senator Obama is elected. It might nullify the past two elections.

[pnwmom]

15. I think the election of either one of them will send a very positive message.

And that's why I, like Margaret Cho, am officially bi-candidate.

[babylonsister]

28. Bi-candidate! Love it!

You are both chickens! :P Say what you think and mean what you say! How can anyone who has watched this be unaffected by one or the other? I do wonder.

[pnwmom]

36. Why isn't it possible to be affected by and to like both of them?

They both have pluses and minuses. For example, Barack was correct to oppose the Iraq war. On the other hand, health care is also extremely important to me, and I think both Hillary and Edwards have plans that are better than Barack's.

Neither candidate is perfect, but either would be immeasurably better than the current occupant.

[jackson_dem]

3. I don't think those numbers explain it

After all, there is only 1 black senator despite blacks being 12% of the population. That is even a greater disparity than 51% of the population holding 16% of senate seats. However, it is clear that in much of the corporate media and punditry the negative tone toward Hillary is based on sexism. MSobamaNBC is the most blatant example of this.

[Recursion]

51. "negativity"

They've given her a year-long bye, for God's sake. They've completely ignored shady fundraising. Nobody asked where she got $5 million. Nobody asked about Gupta. Nobody asked what this "experience" she's talking about is.

She's had a complete free ride for the past year, and if she pulls this off you Hillary supporters are in for a rude awakening when the media starts asking the real questions in the fall.

[Johnny__Motown]

4. Of course it is a factor, so many women support Hillary simply because she is a woman. not fair

[Danzo]

5. Very True

There's no shortage of gender discrimination. And the media is only fueling the fire of sexism this election:

http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/hillary_clinton

[Common Sense Party]

7. Just curious: How many women run for Senate?

That is, over the last, say, 20 years, how many men versus how mny women ran for Senate?

Is it possible that more men run than women, and that might explain some of the lesser representation?

[Skittles]

11. OK, THAT is ridiculous

the fact that more women don't run is due to gender bullshit too

[Common Sense Party]

16. Umm...no, it's not ridiculous at all. It' math.

Unless you're suggesting that although MANY more men probably run than women, there should be equal 50/50% representation. Should there be quotas?

Maybe more women find Washington a cesspool of corruption, lying, and ass-kissing. Perhaps fewer of them want anything to do with it. I don't know.

[Skittles]

19. oh gawd

never f***ing mind....not even worth it

[adoraz]

32. settle down. common had a legit point.

if not as many are running, how can you complain? that is the point. that is what is trying to be figured out.

isn't this whole thing based off of "men won't elect women"? apparently you are trying to make it go deeper to the point where it can't be proved, so that isn't fair for the sake of argument.

either this topic can be about men electing (or not electing) women which can be proved by the math, or whatever you are getting into, which can't go anywhere.

[pnwmom]

43. People are encouraged to run -- or not encouraged -- by party insiders.

You can run without any party support, but it's a heck of a lot harder.

If the party insiders favor men, then there will be fewer women running, no matter how many might be theoretically interested.

[Recursion]

52. Women are a majority. "Men" don't elect anybody

Us guys are a minority of the population. We're not the ones with the power to elect people

[pnwmom]

42. And maybe the party king-makers don't want to be queen-makers. n/t

[noamnety]

49. You know what's funny?

The same people who can't grasp this point would immediately get it if the question were "why aren't there more black CEOs?"

I think their understanding might extend a little deeper than "I guess not as many black people apply for CEO jobs. Hey, maybe black people just don't like having all that much power."

People in my mom's generation - and she is in the typical age bracket of people running for president now - were routinely discriminated against on the job. My mom was fired for being pregnant. She lost her scholarship for college because she got married. "You don't need an education now, honey, you have a man to take care of you. We need to save our precious financial aid money for the heads of households - and you aren't it, he is."

So most women in that age didn't have the same educational or work experience as men running for president, because it was denied to them by men.

(I don't know why that's so hard for people to wrap their heads around.)

[pnwmom]

13. That wouldn't prove much of anything, because the question would then be

why aren't more women supported and encouraged to run for Senate? Men don't do it on their own. They do it with help.

[Common Sense Party]

18. Do you think there should be a 50/50% quota?

[pnwmom]

41. No. And not a quota at all. But, given the percent of women in the

workforce, 16/100 in the Senate is not acceptable.

[Skittles]

21. he thinks it's simple mathematics

give it up

[BalancedGoat]

44. Statistical advantage for women?

I remember reading an article years ago that stated that statistically a woman running for office has a greater chance of winning than a man running for office. I wish I could provide a link but it was years ago and I highly doubt I'd be able to find the article again. However, I decided to take a look at the 2006 senate races. 50% of the women who ran for a senate seat won the election. Only ~21% of the men who ran won. That's a decided statistical advantage for women.

Of course that was just one year. It would be interesting to see if similar statistics exist in other races.

[Common Sense Party]

60. Interesting, and not unexpected.

I'd love to see the article if you find it.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. How is it that the majority of the population are women and yet they are under represented?

Do women discriminate againt their own gender?

How is it that women raise most of the children, yet this discrimination persists?

Do women ever discriminate against men?

Do most women want to be president, senator or congressperson?

Do most men want to be president, senator or congressman?

Why is it that most combatants in wars are men? Does that mean women are less willing willing to fight for their country?

Why do white women earn more money than black men?

Why is it that there are more rich women in the Senate than poor women? (same for men)

There is no level playing field anywhere any time. For anybody. Even for Hillary Clinton, for Barack Obama, or for Dennis Kucinich.

Just wtf is wrong with people?

[laconicsax]

34. Are you asking that rhetorically?

[rodeodance]

46. oh boy!!

[Johnny__Motown]

9. 16 women, how many African Americans? Not a level playing field at all, I agree with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans_in_the_United_States_Congress

[adoraz]

12. I will get flamed for this but...

I think its because the best men are more successful at getting into the top positions than the best women are. This can be pretty much anything from CEOs to Presidents.

I do however, think that the average woman is more successful than the average man. More of them go to college and stuff.

If you look at the most successful people though, almost always its a man. And yes, there is some bias behind that but its just the way it is.

[jgraz]

20. Please go away

:eyes:

[adoraz]

26. uh, no its just true.

Whether it is because of sexism or not, men have been more successful in getting into the higher positions for most things. that is just the way it is. there is no denying that.

sorry if you don't want to hear that, but its how society is.

[Johnny__Motown]

27. I think it is harder for women to succeed because of the demands both biology and society places on

them in regards to having a family.

Women need to remove themselves from the "playing field" and it makes it more difficult to catch up to men who continue to work while their children are born and raised.


I'm sorry if that sounds sexist but it is simply a fact of life. Women have additional demands on their time then men do and this puts them at a disadvantage outside of the home.

[adoraz]

30. thats not sexist, its true

whether or not people want to hear it, its the truth.

[rodeodance]

47. So--you have not answered WHY it is the best men get to the top over the

best women--over and over?



I think its because the best men are more successful at getting into the top positions than the best women are. This can be pretty much anything from CEOs to Presidents.

[jgraz]

22. So how did gender discrimination cause Hillary to run such a shitty campaign?

:shrug:

[countmyvote4real]

23. I don't vote for a vagina or a penis.

But since you brought it up, at this time Hilary is not the vagina (or penis) of my choice. I am voting for change. Those parts have nothing to do with it.

[OzarkDem]

59. So don't discount 52% of the population

when choosing leaders.

[theboss]

24. It's tough for women in politics...no doubt.

I still have little affection for Hillary.

[FlyingSquirrel]

25. My state is ahead of its time... 2 female senators, 1 female governor

We rock.

And they're pretty good at 'cleaning up messes' - especially Patty Murray who really brought the issue of port security to the forefront. She can be in my foxhole any time.

;)

[pnwmom]

37. It's not just your state.

It's mine, too!

:hi:

[Sandaasu]

29. There have been FIVE black senators in this nation's hitory, there's only ONE now.

So, really, given the race invilved, you probably don't want to go this route.

[leftofthedial]

31. I don't believe it has not been a factor

I believe it is not a factor in 99.9% of the criticism of her here.

[adoraz]

33. this topic is completely pointless, and should be done already

because there is only 1 black senator.

stop making up excuses Clinton supporters. this topic shouldn't have been made without mentioning that extremely important part.

gender had nothing to do with her shitty campaign failure.

[pnwmom]

38. No one is claiming that racial discrimination doesn't exist.

But plenty of people, including DUers, put blinders on when it comes to recognizing misogyny.

[Beregond2]

35. Sexism

I would be interested to know how many women have LOST races for the Senate and House? There has never been any shortage of women in those offices from my state (WA,) so I can't help but wonder if there are simply fewer women running for office?

There certainly was no lack of support for Hillary when her campaign began. If her implosion was due to sexism, why would that be? I don't deny that gender attitudes are a factor; they are a factor in everything. But it seems to me that they have worked in her favor at least as much as against her. This board is rife with people who support her entirely because of her sex, and I am sure there are many more like that in the electorate. Enough, surely, to counterbalance those who might be prejudiced against her for the same reason.

The simple truth is, she ran a very bad campaign, and came up against a candidate who was much more reflective of the public mood at this time. There is no reason to insult the intelligence of voters by dragging in all this cant about sexism and the "swoon" and so forth. She was beaten, fair and square. The fact that she came as close as she did is huge in itself. What other female candidate for President has ever achieved a tenth as much? It will be just that much easier for the next serious woman candidate. That is something to be celebrated.

[cooolandrew]

40. THe answer here is clear, more women run for office make the differeence...

The more women running for office the more there will be in Washington, it's very straight forward and in doing so don't make gender an issue it loses votes, as some men will factor in being elected.

[bowens43]

45. Please explain how thisa is evidence of gender discrination in the primary racr.

If anything, Hillary has been given an easy ride.

[rodeodance]

48. Start by looking at the evidence on this board alone please.

[DDQ]

50. I am beginning to read "Women for President-Media Bias in Eight Campaigns"

By Erika Falk. It is about much of what this thread is talking about.

Has anyone else read it or does anyone know of the author?

[cap]

53. People are forgetting the history of smears against female candidates

Geraldine Ferrraro was smeared up and down when she was running for VP. The black female candidates who ran like Shirley Chisholm also got the treatment.

I'm just sick of seeing this treatment. Because only one woman during each period has gotten the clout to run we can all justify our dissent about that woman. I am voting Obama but barely... could go for Hillary in a heartbeat. I am also getting very energized over women's rights. I am so tired of seeing this treatment especially in my worklife. The junior women think everything is just fine. As far as they are concerned, we've got our rights. Women in traditionally female occupations think things are just fine. They dont mind working for men at the senior levels. No one seems to wonder why there's no bulge of women at the senior levels. There should be a big bump of female managers and women in key positions at the senior professional level. Over and over again, I see corporations with a woman in a non-line VP position such as personnel or marketing, a bunch of junior project managers, a few women in non-line, support positions at the senior level, and a bunch of junior women. What's wrong with this picture? Every time I see an outspoken woman -- she's hated, ostracized and then hustled out of there. I'm tired of women in executive positions saying that they never were on the receiving end of sex discrimination. If they weren't on the receiving end of it, then who has been, and why are they speaking out against it?

We have over 1 in 86 houses in foreclosure in California and you dont think women want to make more money to save their house? Something is very wrong with this picture. Those women home owners should be at the peak of their earning power.

The treatment of Hillary has radicalized me. Roll over Gloria Steinem. I am woman hear me roar! You aint seen nothing yet.

[dansolo]

54. Nice revisionism here

Hillary was the clear front runner. She had a huge war chest, and was polling 20-30 points ahead Obama in practically every state. It was her nomination to lose, which she did.

[redqueen]

56. Of course it has... and racism has been a factor, too. (nt)

[Kaylee]

57. And Obama's race has been an issue for him.....

A Black man and a woman are running for President in a country that is still very racist and very sexist. I thought I would be long dead before we saw either in the White House. And even now, I still have my doubts that it will happen.

The discrimination factor is a wash for them. For every voter that says they'd never vote for a woman, there is one that says they'd never vote for a Black man...

[OzarkDem]

58. and 52% of Dem voters are women

Women need to stand up for their own leaders.

Its been proven that countries and cultures that respect women, treat them as equals, including leadership, are the most economically, socially and politically advanced.

Conversely, countries that don't value women, place them below men and don't provide them equal rights are the most politically, socially and economically unstable (third world countries).