The date for the FL primary was picked by a Repug state house!!

[adapa]

I am amazed more democrats aren't pissed the Republicans in Florida told the FL democratic party when to hold their primary & there by got Florida democratic voters disenfranchise yet again!! The Florida democrtatic party did not schedule the date for the primary. The Republican state house scheduled it to fit the republican schedule, ie gulianne, mccain, etc all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Democratic_primary%2C_2008

[leftofcool]

1. Yes

But of course Obama supporters don't want Florida to count.

[ingac70]

2. The Florida Democratic party went along with it. n/t

[adapa]

6. what choice did they have? could the dem's have changed the date?

[HooptieWagon]

11. Plenty of choices

They could have not introduced the bill
They could have voted against it.
They could have filed suit and won declaring it unconstitutional.

You obviously aren't up to facts on the true story, I suggest you read madfloridian's journal which is quite clear and accurate. Then, perhaps, you won't misrepresent the facts, and will place your anger where it properly belongs - on the FDP.

[ingac70]

12. The parties decide on their primary dates...

they went along with it.

[Birthmark]

9. Yes, but those that went along...

...will still be delegates at the Convention. The DNC has decided to take it out on my wife and I and other ordinary people. I guess the DNC is too afraid of the super-delegates to put the blame where it properly lies.

Say hello to President McCain.

[ingac70]

14. The only ones to blame are the Florida Democratic party. n/t

[Birthmark]

19. If you mean the leadership...

...(many of whom are super-delegates), then you are correct.

If you mean average Democrats, then you are egregiously wrong.

[HooptieWagon]

33. Yes, FDP leadership embraced it

It's obvious most regular voters aren't even aware of how it happened, and only this year finding out about the ramifications. interestingly, FDP leadership is behind hill, thought this would help her. THAT sure backfired...

[HooptieWagon]

21. No, Fl's SDs are also not seated,

and since they are among those responsible, any possible seating of FL's delegates should NOT include the SDs.

[Birthmark]

46. Evidence?

Last I heard, they were to be seated.

Source:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/state/content/state/epaper/2008/02/18/m1a_fla_superdels_0218.html

[ingac70]

51. ....

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flpdems0215pnfeb15,0,1512254.story

*snip*

"Because of a spat this year between the state and national Democratic parties over Florida's decision to move its primary up to Jan. 29, national party leaders have said Florida's delegates and superdelegates can't have their votes counted at the convention."


They tried that shit and Dean said no.

[Birthmark]

56. Thanks

[ingac70]

You are welcome.

The DLCers that control the Fl Democratic Party decided to play a game with Dean this year, of all years, and it blew up in their faces.

[Birthmark]

62. I don't mind that it blew up their face.

That's as it should be.

What I mind is that it blew up in MY face. I (and my fellow FL voters) didn't do anything wrong. Penalizing us is uncalled for and undemocratic. If the DNC wants to strip the superdelegates, fine. Who could object? But holding it against the average voter will cost them in the General Election, no matter who the candidate is.

[ingac70]

65. The parties agreed that delegates wouldn't be seated...

long before the primaries rolled around.

[Birthmark]

67. I don't care.

I didn't agree. And I didn't authorize anyone to disenfranchise me on my behalf. Nor am I responsible for the behavior of those that the DNC finds objectionable. Disenfranchising my wife and I shows what little regard the DNC has for average Democrats. If they persist, I will return the favor in November...and convince as many as I can to join me.

[ingac70]

71. Voting for McCain?

[Birthmark]

73. My plan is to stay home.

It's drastic, I know. But I consider disenfranchisement drastic, too.

I may vote only for State and local offices, though, to avoid making the same mistake as the DNC.

[ingac70]

77. Cool.

just so I know you wouldn't go as far as vote McCain. Ech.

[Birthmark]

78. That's a slim possibilty

If Obama would come out in favor of seating FL's regular delegates (not superdelegates), then I could guarantee in writing that I wouldn't vote for McCain. It's hard to NOT vote against a guy that is for disenfranchising me, you know? It'd be hard to vote for McCain, too. Harder...I believe, but I can't guarantee that. (But I'd NEVER encourage anyone to support the bastid.)

[ingac70]

81. You need to go ahead and vote for McCain...

It wasn't like Florida was going to go Dem anyway.

[Birthmark]

83. No, I really don't.

The odds are probably less than 1% of that happening. If the DNC comes to and corrects their disproportionate and childish mistake, the odds plummet to zero. Likewise, if Obama comes out against disenfranchisement, the odd plummet to zero. Come on Democrats, two chances to win!!

And it's not at all impossible for a Dem to carry FL...unless the DNC wants to make it that way.

[ingac70]

53. And that link does not...

show any evidence the SD's are going to be seated, just that they are trying to get seated.

[Birthmark]

60. You are correct.

I misread. My apologies for wasting your time. Sorry.

[Debi]

38. Agreed - Florida Dem. Leadership should be forced to stay home

come Denver - let Florida voters who DIDN'T screw around with the calendar be part of the process. :hi:

[JVS]

31. ahh reminds me of Hillary's vote for war.

memories

[yourguide]

3. The Dems in FL

were the first to introduce that legislation, AND the legislature voted for it 150 to 1.

so unless there is one lone dem in the FL legislature, your "facts" are incorrect.

[democrattotheend]

4. Almost every Democrat in the state legislature voted for it

I have a coworker who used to work at the DNC, and he said if Dems in the statehouse had opposed it and it passed anyway, the party probably would have been more lenient.

[adapa]

10. so because a minory party didn't voice a protest, ALL Florida dem vote's won't count?

[HooptieWagon]

15. No, because a Dem introduced the bill

and the FL Dems voted 115-1 with the pukes to enact it, at the urging of the FDP elites and US Sen Bill Nelson, in an attempt to force Howard Dean's removal as DNC Chair. I strongly suggest you educate yourself on the topic, lest you look even further hysterical and misinformed.

[Birthmark]

24. Tell me...

...how was my wife supposed to stop that exactly? How about my friends and neighbors?

Sorry, but holding average Dems responsible while those that are responsible, such as Nelson and other super-delegates, is neither fair nor democratic. If the Democratic party isn't going to be Democratic, then there is little point in supporting them, imo.

[anigbrowl]

25. Quit changing the subject

And quit whining. your delegates will probably get seated, but on #s it probably won't affect the outcome of the overall process.

[Birthmark]

28. I don't care about the result.

My guy finished third. I can distinguish very little difference between the top two, so I don't care what effect it has on who wins the delegates. What I care about is that the delegates *count.*

[yourguide]

34. You should call your Dem leaders

tell them what a bunch of asses they were and tell Bill Nelson to accept Dean's offer to pay for a caucus.

done and done.

[Birthmark]

42. And you should come out against disenfranchisement...

...of average people based on what someone else has done.

[yourguide]

48. Then I will call YOUR leaders in FL

This is not the DNCs fault, this is the dem party in FLs fault. And the fact that over and over again Dean has made offers to try and accomodate Florida and Bill Nelson has said NO over and over again.

A DEM introduced the bill to move up voting and it was voted for 115-1, that means 1 dem voted against it while the rest voted for it knowing the consequences.

[Birthmark]

49. Sorry, it IS the DNC's fault

The DNC disenfranchised me. Not the FDP nor myself. I resent being used as a pawn between them and I strongly object to being disenfranchised.

Come November, you may not like it as much, either. (See sig line)

[yourguide]

50. How did the DNC disenfranchise you

when your own FL dems broke the rules.

talk to YOUR leaders in YOUR state it's their fault.

and just in case you havent been paying attention.

There is a DUer in FL who has kept track of the FL Dem party antics since this started, here is a post of hers with links, post #44 in that thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4911572#4912409

[Birthmark]

57. Ah, I understand.

It's like those guys whose wives "force" them to hit them, right? The poor DNC had no choice. Except it's worse. The DNC beat the kids. Of course it's not their fault.

[yourguide]

75. No it's a lot more like

when 50 children all have place in line and a couple are told over and over again if you cut in line you cant go on the field trip...they were warned.

this is nothing like beating your wife or your children this is more like punishing a child for defying the parents. there is no mystery here, the children knew the punishment ahead of time and still chose to do it.

[Birthmark]

No, really it's not.

Because we aren't dealing with fifty people here. We're dealing with 1.75 MILLION Democrats, over 99% of whom had nothing whatsoever to do with the rule breaking. It makes no sense and is unjust.

I understand that that doesn't work for your candidate. I'll just say this about that: I'd NEVER support disenfranchising you or anyone else just to get my candidate elected. Sorry you don't feel the same way.

[LittleClarkie]

74. No, the DNC didn't break the rules. Your state party did. Gladly too.

They disenfranchised you, and they are the ones to talk to. If you will not do so, then it does no good to cry to the DNC. Your state party voted on the rules just the same as anyone and should have abided by them.

[Birthmark]

85. Not true. The DNC disenfranchised me.

You may try to rationalize around that, but that is what happened.

[LittleClarkie]

88. Sorry you think it's okay to break rules. Do you blame the cop when you get a ticket too?

Damn cop for enforcing the rules!

I'm not rationalizing anything.

[Birthmark]

89. Okay to break the rules?

Where did I say that?

You are making things up. You're nose gonna grow...think how difficult eating an apple will become if you keep this up! Hadn't thought of that, had you?

[TheDoorbellRang]

96. Why don't you all vote your FL party leaders out of office

We can carry on all day and night on how Florida leadership was responsible for Florida voters' voices not being heard on who the Dem nominee will be in the fall. At the end of the day, all we can do is throw the ones responsible out of office. I'd say the whole political party down there in Florida needs a complete do-over.

[HooptieWagon]

41. You should find out how your rep voted

and lead the charge to get rid of him next election. LTTE, canvas neighborhoods, etc. Make sure everybody you know is aware of who's foolish votes led to this. Oh, and it would help not to elect another DLCer, although that's hard - they have a stranglehold on the state party.

[Birthmark]

44. He's a Repub.

Been trying to get rid of him...and his predecessor.

[madfloridian]

70. Vote them out of office for selling you out.

.

[Birthmark]

72. So...

...you think it's all good and proper; that I should take disenfranchisement based on the actions of someone else? As an American, I disagree. You just have to understand that some of us put our allegiance to the principles of America before our allegiance to the DNC.

The DNC is playing with fire.

[adapa]

59. thank you so much for calling me hysterical--I have learned so much from you

[HooptieWagon]

94. my apologies

I get so frustrated correcting the misinformation being spread, sometimes I forget that it may be unintentional. I'm sorry.

[anigbrowl]

16. Sorry, what was the risk in voting against it?

That Republicans would call them mean names?

[yourguide]

29. It's not that they didnt protest it

they voted FOR it. OVERWHELMINGLY. Knowing the rules, and knowing what was at stake.

[Fresh_Start]

5. yes, so lets punish the voters

its not like Florida voters aren't used to being disenfranchised

[thunder rising]

8. Live from WPB ... we'll get over it! We'll be there for Obama in the GE!

[Birthmark]

87. Not me.

Disenfranchise me once...and you lose me. Quite possibly for good.

Btw, what rule did you personally break to justify disenfranchising you?

[HooptieWagon]

7. A DLC Dem introduced the bill

[stop the bleeding]

18. don't waste your time facts

they are not allowed GDP


Florida voter here from 2000, 2004 and 2008

[HooptieWagon]

23. geesh its getting ridiculous

every hour some new hysterical thread is started on the subject, the OP being completely ignorant of the facts. They coming from His44 or something?

[stop the bleeding]

27. Cripes

you're in St Pete?

I work in Lutz but live in New Port Rickety, girlfriend lives in Dunedin right on the water.



:hi:

on your post, yeah the OP should go read madfloridian's work

[Emit]

80. stb, Madfloridian and I were discussing this topic here just the other day

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4626494

And, of course, on one of her related threads here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4593109

I never mentioned this before, but I have family in Florida (Brandon). They took us to St. Pete once -- great times, those.

edit typo

[Orangepeel]

13. I see that you weren't paying attention while it was happening

The Democrats in the legislature and the Florida Democratic party are just as much to blame. They were supportive of the change, ignored warnings by the DNC, and rejected all compromise offers by the DNC.

[adapa]

17. yep, running a house, working, maneging a addhd kid & looking out for my folks

took too much of my time.
sorry:sarcasm:

[Debi]

22. Well, nobody else here has a job, family or responsibilities

:cry:

Please

[Orangepeel]

32. Which is fine. There are a lot of things I don't have time to pay attention to.

which explains why I am amazed later when I don't understand them.

If I get indignant about a clusterfuck after the fact, I try to make sure I'm putting the blame for it on the right people.

[HooptieWagon]

47. Congratulations

You're much more diplomatic than I...

[adapa]

61. thanks for understanding-I consider myself to be informed but this compleatly

missed my radar. Life happens sometimes.

I did search about for more information, obviously some think I should have spent hours searching prior to posting. I just do not have the time to fully vet & footnote everything I write.

I still think the dem. voters in FL shouldn't be penalized for their leaders screwing up.

[Debi]

20. A Democrat introduced the legislation - all but a few Democrats voted for it

Yeah, a real slam-dunk by the republicans.

Go read madfloridian's journals.

It's a necessary education.

[HooptieWagon]

26. All but a SINGLE Dem voted for it.

[Debi]

30. I thought it was 3 with the house/senate voted

x( Maybe I need to go read madfloridian's journals!

Sorry. :hi:

[HooptieWagon]

36. My understanding is vote was 115-1

pls let me know if that's in error.

[Debi]

43. I'll take your word for it - kind of hoping mad would get on this thread so we could ask

L-A-Z-Y me!

[MoonRiver]

35. One of the worst outrages in this primary.

The electorate of Florida is being screwed royally AGAIN! If I lived in Florida I'd be so mad.

[yourguide]

39. Yes and the electorate of FL

should call their DEM leaders in FL and raise hell, they are the ones that screwed the voters. They should also demand that they ACCEPT the DNCs offer to pay for a caucus. The DNC has offered many compromises and the state of FL has turned them down again and again.

[adapa]

63. What type of Compromises were offered?

It's my understanding money is the main issue

[HooptieWagon]

95. DNC offered to pay for caucuses afterward

but Bill Nelson is adamantly against (it would help Obama, and he's DLC/Clinton). Also Fla was allowed to have a caucus or straw poll on the date they did, instead of a primary. That was refused. Fla was also allowed to move election up to Super Tuesday, but not further, this was also refused. Funny thing is, FL would have voted yesterday under the old date, and would have been a serious player. Instead, our elected "leaders" tried to play big-shots and ended up taking us right out of the contest.

BTW, upthread I apologized for my sharp tongue.

[DUyellow]

37. How many dems voted against it?

[yourguide]

40. Only 1 of the dems in FL voted against it

The count was 115 to 1

[DUyellow]

52. I knew it was the republicans fault!!!

[yourguide]

55. ROFL you are kidding right?

Only 1 dem voted against it, the rest voted to move the date up.

[DUyellow]

68. i was being 100% sarcastic.

[sniffa]

45. And (unanimously - 1?) agreed to by the Dems there

[LittleClarkie]

54. Sorry. The Dems in Florida were in on the deal.

They were just as guilty as the Republicans. If they'd have shown just one little bit of resistance to what the Republicans were doing, the DNC and Dean would have been reasonable. But no. They laughed at Dean's authority and broke the rules and cried about the right to vote that they themselves took away from their constituents.

And since some of them are DLC or Hillary people, like Sen. Nelson, I wonder if it wasn't planned to humiliate Dean. No love lost there.

[Obamanaut]

58. And I'll betcha every incumbent running for reelection will keep

his/her job.

[RB TexLa]

64. What is wrong with having a revote May that doesn't threaten the White Primary of Iowa/NH?

[GoldieAZ49]

66. So what? Do the Florida Dems plan on being out of the state that day?

even then they can vote early.

Save your outrage for the Dem Party still using super delegates, that at least has good reason for you to be pissy.

[madfloridian]

69. That is not true at all.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

[Emit]

86. madfloridian

:hi:

There have been a couple of these threads floating in and out today, but I couldn't respond or pm you because I was at work. I kept thinking, "Just wait 'til madfloridian sees these!" Glad to see you here. ;)

[madfloridian]

91. Well, I am about worn out. Someone else will have to fight it

I think it is being organized and planned elsewhere to post here. It's happened before.

Thanks for the nice words. :hi:

[madfloridian]

76. I am working very hard on a made up story that will simply fascinate.

And I betcha I get away with it. Everybody else gets to do it, maybe I can as well.

[madfloridian]

82. My story will sound very credible, very believable.

But it will be packed with lies.

And I will argue with anyone who questions my post.

[rodeodance]

84. you do know you are responding to yourself??

My story will sound very credible, very believable.
Posted by madfloridian


But it will be packed with lies.

And I will argue with anyone who questions my post.

[madfloridian]

90. Yes, I do. Are your seeking out my posts?

Have you ever heard of hyperbole or sarcasm?

Oh, never mind.

[joshcryer]

79. The dems voted for it because like all politicians they're political opportunists.

But I doubt that it was their idea, they were warned beforehand not to do it. They just figured the political rewards were better than their peoples' votes counting.

[Patsy Stone]

92. That final bill also included the provisions for a paper trail.

http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/#q4

"The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority’s throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles."

[madfloridian]

93. That has been debunked. The Dems worked to include it.

They were all in it together.

[Patsy Stone]

97. I didn't say they didn't work to include it.

I only said it was included, because I hadn't seen that posted here. Don't get me wrong, I hate what they (the Dems) did, but I like my paper ballot. In fact, my one issue was having a paper ballot. As upset as I am about how it happened, I'm still happy there will be paper again.