If Clinton keeps running on "experience" and "toughness", she will lose to McCain

[eridani]

That is strictly a Republican frame, and Dems who do it to themselves guanrantee that they will lose. McCain is older, has far more experience, and few can be tougher (at least in public perception) than an ex-POW.

The only way to win is to make judgment trump experience (or at least make it appear to), especially if "experience" includes being an old hand at corruption, as McCain is. Clinton can't run against him on the war, because the Repubs will give her what Kerry got on that subject--I was for it before I was against it.

[Political Heretic]

1. If she's the nominee she'll need to run ALL Economy Economy Economy Economy

[TwilightGardener]

2. Oh, I'm sure she is much tougher than a guy who was beaten and tortured

for five and a half years but refused early release. And SO much more experience! Yep, it's a winning argument for her, all around.

[wileedog]

3. McCain could run..

...her own 3am ad against her without changing a thing except the name at the end.

[RiverStone]

4. She has already lost the pledged delegates...

To keep running to a HUGE floor fight is something she needs to ask herself --- is it worth it?

[KittyWampus]

66. she has also lost super delegates. They're not moving to her side.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

5. She would pivot to hope and change the moment she got the nomination

It's basic.

[tularetom]

7. Basic yes - and patently cynical and false

Besides I'm not so sure she wants to show any signs of "softness" or lack of "patriotism".

She and bubba think thats the way for Dems to win elections.

She has to keep pretending she's a warmonger, to the point where she won't back off even if she is elected.

[eridani]

9. That would be great if she did. Are you sure she will? n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

14. When you run against a 45 year old rookie you run on experience

When you run against a 72 year old career Senator you run against his age.

Sure. Of course she will. (or rather, would)

And if it was Clinton/Obama, even more so.

[eridani]

19. That would be much easier for Obama to do

--particularly since he is not now using the scaremongering frame.

[TwilightGardener]

13. LOL! And not a soul would believe her.

[ribrepin]

56. The problem is that she may pivot

but the repub ad-makers must be drooling at the prospect of running the Hilary 3 a.m. ad and ending it with "Who would you rather have in the White House the X-president's wife or the guy who spent 5 1/2 years in a POW camp and refused early release." Maybe they'll throw in her failed health care plan just for giggles.

Not a pretty picture.:-(

Obama, of course, will get the same treatment, but he didn't present it as part of his credentials.

[maddiejoan]

6. She would run with policy against McCain

and she'll cream him.

Nobody wants a continuation of Bush (okay --19% do)

[eridani]

10. But she agrees with him on Iraq

Not really, of course, because she wants out sooner. But agreement is how the Repubs will frame it. I think we need a candidate who is not lugging around that huge radioactive sore of yes on IWR.

[maddiejoan]

12. IWR vote is not that radioactive in the GE

don't kid yourself.

[eridani]

17. It was for Kerry. It will be worse for Clinton, who took much longer to turn against the war

Her comeback was based on strictly Republican fearmongering. Using the opposition's frames guarantees your defeat.

[TwilightGardener]

18. She'll move to the right on the war. I'd put money on it.

[maddiejoan]

20. This isn't the 2004 election

[eridani]

21. No, it's an election in which even more people are against the war

It's one of the top two issues, and she loses on it automatically.

[maddiejoan]

24. No she doesn't

She wants to end it.

McCain doesn't.

See.

Simple.

[eridani]

30. Keeping a "residual force" in place is not ending it

Keeping forces around for "training" is not ending it. She thinks we need to defend our slave labor built embassy in Baghdad to defend "our" interests. Hint--you and me and other ordinary people are not included in that "we."

We are getting off topic. The point is not that she is different from McCain on this (she is), but that she backed the war for such a long time will allow the Repubs to successfully paint her as not all that different.

[maddiejoan]

32. Then it will be doubly bad for Obama

who claims to have been against the war in 2002 --and yet continued to support the War until his run for the Presidency.

[eridani]

35. Both supported it financially. Clinton supported it rhetorically until very recently.

Bill Clinton even defended Bush on the issue. That did NOT help Kerry in 2004.

[maddiejoan]

37. In 2004

Obama said his position on Iraq wasn't substantially different than Bush's

[eridani]

42. Is he known for defending Bush on the war in public, frequently and loudly? n/t

[maddiejoan]

44. No

Neither is Hillary for that matter

[eridani]

49. Bill certainly did

Also promised that Hillary would tour the world with Bush the First. Obama is not linked in the public mind with the Bush family.

[TwilightGardener]

15. People don't vote policy. Otherwise, we'd have President Gore finishing up

right about now. Or President Kerry.

edit to add: they don't vote policy in the general--they do in the Dem primary.

[maddiejoan]

26. Bush's approvals are 19%

in people's minds --McCain is more Bush.

unless he shakes that perception --it'll be a slaughter.

[TwilightGardener]

28. People like McCain. He has the highest favorability ratings of

any candidate. They will most likely consider him enough of a "change", unless they like the other candidate better.

[maddiejoan]

29. They like McCain from 2000

He's not that McCain anymore --and he hasn't been for some time.

[TwilightGardener]

31. No, but the MSM hasn't turned on him yet. Maybe they will, maybe

they won't. Until then, he feeds them barbecue and orders them to stop asking questions about the Iseman affair, and the press complies.

[maddiejoan]

36. Gonna be awfully hard to sell himself

as the straight talking maverick.

[TwilightGardener]

39. Hope so, but we'll see.

[maddiejoan]

41. The hug that lost an election.

[TwilightGardener]

45. I never get tired of seeing that. Never.

[eridani]

40. Clinton has made it harder to link McCain to Bush

McCain has favorability ratings very much higher than Bush. All based on bogus notions, of course, which is why Clinton ought to quit using Republican memes. No Dem will ever be able to beat them using fear.

[maddiejoan]

46. Naive

Obviously she would attack McCain differently.

[eridani]

48. She is using Republican frames right now

Why do you think she would change? It's a hard habit to break.

[maddiejoan]

61. Obama is the one using GOP talking points, love.

not Hillary.

[eridani]

64. Fear of terrorism, and fear period, is THE essential Repub frame

Clinton is the one using it, not Obama

[spag68]

8. Don't be silly

If she is the candidate, she will be the president. That is unless the Obama backers are not true Dems who understand that this is bigger then ego. Remember Supreme Court, global warming, war in Iraq and on and on. Get with it people I live in NY and have watched her for 8 years in the Senate, she is a Dem. McLaim is a rethug, if you would not vote for her, you elect him. Don't worry though, others can do it without you, maybe, your choice.

[eridani]

11. Mostly the fresh newbies will work for her, I think, but without joy

At the same time she will be mobilizing the Republican base.

[Shine]

16. McCain's weakness is that he doesn't really have an economic plan

he doesn't talk in those parameters, and the Dems really need to hone in on that vulnerability because it's such a big topic in the collective consciousness of the American public.

Some would argue the economy and other domestic issues are becoming more important than the war b/c the financial day-to-day problems are more "in their face", so to speak.

I agree the Dems need to change the frame of the conversation.

[eridani]

33. Clinton is, of course, NOT changing the frame

That's the point. The war and the economy are bound together very tightly as issues.

[Lord Helmet]

22. she gave him the ammo to take her down too

what a dumb-ass

[ExFreeper4Obama]

23. She won't be able to run against McCain

The race is mathematically over. The super delegates WILL NOT overturn the will of the voters. Its over. Hillary is now the Mike Huckabee of the Democratic Party.

:rofl:

[spag68]

25. What about that old thing

about the will of the voters. I don't hear much about that now that she leads in the vote count. I guess the voters of Fla. don't count either.

[FedoraLV]

58. Voters in FL

Hm, do you want our GE candidate to be based on a race where the majority of the candidates recused themselves out, campaigning was banned, and voters were told their votes would not count?

Everyone wants a fair solution to FL and MI ... and I don't want to give the Republicans the smear that our candidate was chosen by 1-candidate ballots.

Vote for Ficus! (ObMichaelMoore: <http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/0426-09.htm>)

-FedoraLV

[eridani]

34. That may or may not be true

The delegate numbers are still close, even though Obama is ahead. Anybody that close would have to be nuts to quit.

[ExFreeper4Obama]

53. Its all over my friend

Hillary cant overcome the pledged delegate count and remaining super delegates have stated that they will not overturn the will of the voters for fear of alienating the new youth voters.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/119010/page/1

[eridani]

55. Mathematically, yes. However the final count will be really close

That raises a whole bunch of strictly non-mathematical issues.

[0007]

27. Watch out for Cindy. The mannequin queen can take a punch.

[Hoof Hearted]

50. *snarf*

[Cleita]

38. that's why we needed Edwards, the candidate who

could beat McCain.

[spag68]

47. I must admit

The Edwards ideas were most appealing to me,however he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[marions ghost]

57. Edwards

was in the right place in a very wrong time.

[smalll]

43. WRONG. The Dems have an advantage this year --

the Dem just has to be experienced ENOUGH, and tough ENOUGH to be able to defeat McCain. We have the advantage, but voters do care about experience, and about toughness (particularly when thinking about foreign policy.) To the general electorate, Obama won't seem experienced or tough enough.

[Radical Activist]

51. I heard that in '04.

We need someone people want to vote FOR, not just a place holder who isn't a Republican.

[Radical Activist]

52. One of many reasons Hillary can't win.

Repub-lite won't cut it this time.

[eridani]

54. Obama isn't much better there as far as actual policy goes

But he has the new face advantage, and hasn't used the fear card yet. Doing the latter, even in a primary, is a recipe for a sure loss in the GE because Rethugs always and everywhere do fear better.

[Radical Activist]

63. Obama had the most consistent progressive record of anyone who ran this year.

I know there's a lot of spin claiming otherwise but I know better because I've followed his career longer than most people have known about him. The idea that there are no policy differences is what the Clinton campaign wants people to believe.

[eridani]

65. No, that would be Dennis Kucinich

Voted against the war, against all "free" trade agreements, against the PATRIOT Act. Backs single payer health care.

[Radical Activist]

68. The national journal rated Obama more progressive than Kucinich last year.

[eridani]

69. The national journal has its head up its ass.

Any legislator who is not for universal single payer health care is not progressive. They are probably lumping in votes that really don't matter very much with votes on issues like the bankruptcy bill, the PATRIOT Act and continued war funding.

[amborin]

59. Clinton is a brilliant progressive, health insurance, ECONOMY, etc....

the sagging economy is a HUGE issue

McCain is on record for saying he doesn't understand it

[SoCalDem]

60. Here are some links that detail her experience

http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=43

http://www.issues2000.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm

[Uben]

62. McCain's experience

getting shot down by a missile

folding under torture (anyone probably would)

blindly following Bush policy


Like I'm worried about him!

[shadowknows69]

67. If Hillary wins the nom I predict

that she becomes the "hope and change" candidate in the blink of an eye.