Aha...Dean says FL and MI would not negotiate with the DNC...took it public instead.

[madfloridian]

Here is an 8 minute interview he gave on NPR today. I knew how they treated the DNC and Dean early on in the process, but apparently the two states made this latest public move while refusing to deal with the DNC. That is a low blow and disrespectful.

It is getting very obvious now that FL and MI leaders do not recognize the DNC as the authority. May I post The Nation article which points that out?

The Dean Legacy

A few months earlier, The New Republic had reported that Clinton's camp was "laying the groundwork to circumvent the DNC in the event that Clinton wins the nomination." This shadow DNC had a number of integral parts: adviser Harold Ickes would develop state-of-the-art technology to help Clinton reach prospective voters; EMILY's List and Clinton's allies in organized labor would launch an unprecedented effort to turn out supporters, especially women voters; former DNC chair Terry McAuliffe would raise untold sums from wealthy donors and the business community; and communications honcho Howard Wolfson would direct an unrelenting war room. Ever since 1992 the Clintons had used the DNC as an outpost for raising money from big donors, and funding candidates had taken precedence over nurturing progressive organizers. That model would continue into '08. Dean could remain at the DNC as a figurehead but only if he stayed in line.

There is no transcript of the interview with NPR, and it is abou 8 minutes long. Near the end he says the two states took it public while refusing to have discussions with the DNC.

NPR: Dean weighs in on the primary

This has been the pattern all along. Ignore and laugh at the DNC, and do what they want to do. Then later blame him for the fiasco.

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

Here is the DNC's final offer today.

We're glad to hear that the Governors of Michigan and Florida are willing to lend their weight to help resolve this issue. As we've said all along, we strongly encourage the Michigan and Florida state parties to follow the rules, so today's public overtures are good news. The rules, which were agreed to by the full DNC including representatives from Florida and Michigan over 18 months ago, allow for two options. First, either state can choose to resubmit a plan and run a party process to select delegates to the convention; second, they can wait until this summer and appeal to the Convention Credentials Committee, which determines and resolves any outstanding questions about the seating of delegates.We look forward to receiving their proposals should they decide to submit new delegate selection plans and will review those plans at that time. The Democratic Nominee will be determined in accordance with party rules, and out of respect for the presidential campaigns and the states that did not violate party rules, we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game.

"Through all the speculation, we should also remember the overwhelming enthusiasm and turnout that we have already seen, and respect the voters of the ten states who have yet to have their say.

"As we head towards November, our nominee must have the united support of a strong Democratic Party that's ready to fight and ready to beat John McCain. After seven years of Republican rule, I am confident that we will elect a Democratic president who will fight for America's families in the White House. Now we must hear from the voters in twelve states and territories who have yet to make their voices heard."

DNC Lays Out Choice For Florida And Michigan: Rules, Re-Vote

[havocmom]

1. bookmarked

Thanks for posting

[seabeyond]

2. so when the few i talk to tonight yell about their vote being disenfranchised, please

look to the people responsible and give them hell. this is at least the second time that dean has compromised trying to get the people their vote.

[madfloridian]

8. The hilllary people don't want to hear anything.

they close their ears and go na na na I can't hear you.

[Sterling]

153. Sure that must be it, it's always about who you support.

Could not possibly be that people feel like we should all have the right to vote? I don't support either candidate at this point, so give up your silly notion that this is only about which cult leader you prefer. I hate primary time here. It brings out the worst in people. It exposes that many of us have no real values, only value getting what we want.

That pretty much sums up what is wrong with the country in general. We have become a bunch of selfish narcissists that have no core values other than instant gratification.

Here I thought that was just a Repuke thing? You learn something everyday I guess.

[rocktivity]

81. DING DING DING! Seabeyond, you're our grand prize winner!

...when the few i talk to tonight yell about their vote being disenfranchised, please look to the people responsible...

And the people responsible AIN'T the DNC. Dean is not the villian, the people who changed dates are. And the candidates are not the real victims, the voters are.

This is nothing less than a coup attempt on the progressive end the of the Dem party. I wouldn't be surprised if there was DLC involvement.

:mad:
rocknation

[xxqqqzme]

91. if by 'coup attempt' you mean cut Dean out

then it is not the progressive end of the party - that is where Dean is - it is a coup attempt by the dlc faction - read The Nation article - the only reason the dlc/Clinton campaign were not able to cut Dean out is because she was losing(which never figured into their campaign plan) and ran out of money.

The dlc is the pnac of the Democratic Party - not to be trusted.

[Ken Burch]

162. I think the poster meant "coup attempt AGAINST the progressive end of the party".

staged by the dlc, amongst others.

[Why Syzygy]

167. When Dean ran in the primary,

the DLC notably left him out of "their" group of suitable candidates. Yep.
Almost same party.

The permissible candidates were showcased on their web site. Howard Dean was not there. He was never mentioned.

Just happens to be the flip side, as you say, the pnac bunch.

[spag68]

3. Fla. voters

Please try to remember that this early vote was put up by the rethug controlled Fla legislature. If the Dems had refused, they would not have been able to vote on a property tax issue. This stuff is not all black or white. I'm not saying they were right, but there is reason to believe there was rethug s behind it.

[madfloridian]

4. NO.....I will not let you get away with not telling the truth.

I have tried too hard and written too much to have people try to blame the Republicans. Florida was in on it all the way.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

[MelissaB]

16. Bookmarking to find all these links again.

:hi:

[seabeyond]

19. i should have found you before. looks like i was given misinformation

on how this came about. will look into your links. thanks.

[Irishonly]

50. Thank you

I have read every thing you wrote about the debacle and I have now made a madfloridian folder on my favorites. Your work has been outstanding.

[elixir]

71. So, as a Florida voter, how do you get your primary vote counted?

[demo dutch]

132. By taking it public!

[ourbluenation]

98. Thank you. I heard Clinton trying to blame it on the republicans just a few days ago...

and I believed her. Seems there's more to this that she chose to leave out. My respect for her is diminshing, like a slow bleeding wound. I'm disappointed because I really liked her.

[demo dutch]

133. The fact is that the primiary bill was attached to a bill ensuring a papertrail. When the Dems

tried to amend it which the GOP legislature vetoed and so Dems had no choice but to pass the bill as was, since they had fought for a papertrail since 2000. It's unfortunate that a Dem initially introduced the bill to move the primary date but like I explained the whole thing got snagged up into the games of the GOP.

[Cha]

104. Thanks, mad, for putting

that lie to rest.

[tbyg52]

112. Bookmarked - thank you! Just the information I was looking for right now

as on the way home Randi Rhodes was going on about how it was (only) the R lege's fault, and the DNC was picking on the Florida D's through no fault of their own.

[ngant17]

6. that's basically true, but I am NPA and I didn't change

my party affiliation by end of year on 2007. I voted against the property tax amendment, so technically the earlier date of the caucus didn't lock the doors on the voting booths, so it should not have prevented anyone(Dem, Repug, Indy) from voting pro or con on the tax issue. The "beauty contest" was a separate issue entirely.

Be that as it may, the tax law fooled a lot of people and it was in fact a give-away for the rich developers and their Repugs who control the political apparatus in Florida these days.

The state's economy is souring already and it's predicted to go further south as we approach the summertime. I'd be surprised if the tax rebate does much to turn the tide of red numbers back back into black again.

I supported Hillary when she ran for Senator of NY but I don't like any war mongering, I don't know how she is gonna straighten up her act and portray herself as the peace candidate now, maybe with a mighty big magic wand and with Obama on her side, but otherwise I'm not voting for a battle-axe in the White House this year.

[madfloridian]

7. My point is that the Dems here PLANNED it with the GOP

for over a year. They all worked together on it.

[mtnester]

13. Thanks for using that double entendre to make your point about

her position on the war (which you rightly should), and use a crappy sexist phrase toward a woman at the same time (which you should not, know that, but picked the most careful phrase to make sure you did anyway). Very clever.

[ngant17]

122. I've had tremendous respect for Hillary

however note that is in the past tense. She did not need to vote for IWR for political ambition. It didn't win her any hugh leads against Obama and in fact, I would argue that her stance wrt IWR cost her a large winning margin in the Dem caucus. A miscalulation? Or did she really believe the "yellow cake" propaganda, ect.

Note that a new war may be brewing in South America, and Columbia is an instigator in spreading the "uranium dirty bomb" lies, against the FARC, but it's the same old story. Will she buy into this crap again? Does 1 million dead civilians in Iraq count for anything in the vote for the POTUS? I think it should.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

17. End of occupation not on the horizon...

Neither of the three candidates is going to end the occupation. Basically McCain will keep troops as they are. The Dems will most do a gradual redeployment of the troops to surrounding allied nations and fill the security vacuum with blackwater mercenaries. Neither is a good option, but politicians can hide the true cost of war by using private contractors and that is most likely what they will do to respond to a hostile public.

[ngant17]

125. then I would say it's the lesser of the 3 evils

and that would still make Obama as the one who has at least been more public about supporting a peace initiative. Maybe he won't, but at least he is making a statement in that respect.

[demo dutch]

131. Facts---The GOP attached the primary date bill to a bill that ensured a paper ballots, Dems has no

choice but to pass it since they've been fighting for a papertrail since 2000. MadFL should tell the whole truth!

[madfloridian]

5. FL and MI went over the DNC's head to the media.

That is pretty rotten. Governor Granholm was part of this media stunt.

They are going around the DNC to get attention. They got it.

[anigbrowl]

9. Madfloridian, you are by far the best informed on this subject

I have a couple of questions...

What did the Fl (and/or MI) Democratic party have to gain from this?

Has it resulted in any kind of concessions or benefits from the Florida GOP?

Why do they seem to have it in for Dean so much? The whole thing almost seems designed to spite him.

Is it or could it be a proxy struggle between DLC and DNC interests? If so, what would the benefits for the DLC be and how might they have figured on it turning out in the GE?

[eShirl]

18. great questions! n/t

[spoony]

94. No, she's just the loudest. The two are not the same.

[madfloridian]

176. CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW

You really don't like my posts, do you. Why not put me on ignore and you will feel better.

[Zhade]

114. She sure is! Always has the sources and facts to back her up.

NT!

[demo dutch]

135. The fact is that the primiary bill was attached to a bill ensuring a papertrail. When the Dems

tried to amend the GOP vetoed and so Dems had no choice but to go along in order to pass the paperballot bill since they had fought for papertrail since 2000. Madfl hasn't included that fact!

[madfloridian]

179. I discount that fact. It is a lie. They were all in on it.

Paper trail was just a cunning way to spin it.

[Zhade]

113. Thank you for continuing to spread the truth.

NT!

[Sterling]

155. Oh dear, they actually made it a public issue!

Much better these things are worked out behind closed doors by our masters. God forbid the public actually have an interest in people's right to vote.

I feel like I am reading Free Republic in 2000.

[Kurovski]

10. K&R

Thanks (yet once again) madfloridian. :-)

[BrightKnight]

11. How can anyone find this no election S#!+!! acceptable!!

You can't choose not to have or recognize elections in Multiple States. What is the DNC leadership smoking!? This is not a game. There is nothing more fundimental than assuring free and fair elections. They need to get off of their butts and fix the problem that they created. Any strategic gain that anyone thought might have been gained from this has been completely overshadowed by the problems that it has caused. Just fix it!

[seabeyond]

20. dnc did NOT create this. dnc is the one offering solutions. go after the ones

creating the problems.

[Little Star]

24. I disagree. The R's had the same problem in FL and they

took a measured response. They took away some of the delegates, not all. They have had no problem with FL R voters. The DNC went heavy handed and disenfranchised ALL the D voters in two states. I sure would not like to have been raised by a parent who did not know how to be measured in their punishment. DNC's rules were totally heavy handed and now they are facing the backlash.

[seabeyond]

25. fact is not an opinion. fact.... dnc did not break the rule. dnc made clear the rule

so it was not ignorance on the part of these two states. dnc gave options to the two states and they refused them. the two states broke the rule well aware of the repercussion. now they are dealing with the repercussion at the expense of the voters. dnc again tries to work with the two states and they refuse.

NOT dnc.

to blame them because they didnt let yawl break the rule and back down is so indicative of our whining woe is me victim society we are become.

be mad

but be mad at the right people

nothing worse than to blame someone who is NOT responsible. you look beyond foolish and certain accomplishes NOTHING>

and the republicans made their own decision.

the parent that never stands by their rule has children that push it further and further and further until it is out of control. any issue in my home that is important, there is NO leeway. and there is no battle over it because of consistency. and peace reigns. if you really want to put the voters of these two states in the category of children being disciplined.

[Sterling]

152. Who the fuck does the DNC think it is anyway?

I really don't like the idea of one party rule. The government, our elected officials make the laws, not the parties. That sounds like some sort of dictatorship. Let people vote and be heard, period. My loyalty is to my fellow citizens, not Howard Dean. Voting is far too important to be fucked with like this.

Regardless of what state legislatures decided the DNC chose to "punish" citizens in one of the most offensive ways possible. It was a huge mistake and we will regret it. Most likely all hell will break loose if those states would make the difference, and if I was in one of those states I would give the finger to the party come GE time. Hell I am in NY and I am so offended I may have lost the motivation to support anybody in this sham of a dog and pony show. I vote my conscience and what has been done to my fellow citizens by my party in FL and MI is unconscionable.

[susankh4]

34. This is a good point.

and I think the only reason anyone went along with the DNC barring of FLA delegates is that noone thought it would matter.

But, as Murphy's law would have it... now it DOES matter. And a remedy had better be short in coming, because Crist and the MSM are making the DNC look like fools to the entire country.

I feel sorry for Howard dean. I really do. But..... he needs to figure a way out of this.

The ongoing race between Hillary and Barack will not be a problem for us... unless the Repubs can paint it that there were "back room dealings" and "disenfranchisement." Then we'll be doomed.

[seabeyond]

36. so.... these people intent and screwing the voters to get dean is working

we clearly know they were willing to throw floridians under the bus to get dean and we are allowing it. that is what we are.

dean is offering something and they turn backs and we blame dean

voters didnt vote knowing it wouldnt count, now we say surprise it counts, and those people shouldnt be outraged? or are they expendable?

[susankh4]

37. None of that matters....

the public perception is what matters.

I hope the DNC can figure out a way to stop the RNC from painting the dems as evil disenfranchisers.

As I said, I feel very sorry for Howard Dean.

[seabeyond]

38. truth matters. unfortunately too many people dont put much stock into it

but i hear ya

[susankh4]

39. Damn!

And double damn!

Can someone please offer a tourniquet to stem the bleeding?

[madfloridian]

59. I feel sorry for Hillary when people do start seeing the truth.

Dean is not going to remain silent forever. The NPR interview was only a start.

I will find it hard to vote for her now, I don't even like to see her face on TV.

That's sad.

[Sterling]

173. making the DNC look like fools to the entire country.

The DNC is doing that all by themselves, they need no help in this area.

[Sterling]

156. I just think the idea that the DNC can "punish" anyone preposterous

The DNC is NOT the government. They do not have the right to take people's votes away,, no matter how stupid/self destructive the head of the DNC is.

[spoony]

95. I guess if telling millions of voters to fuck off is a solution.

[madfloridian]

121. You just repeat the same thing over and over. It is not true.

[demo dutch]

136. You're always leaving out the issue of the papertrail bill, be honest for once

[madfloridian]

146. It means nothing. FL dems knew it was in there and helped plan it from the start.

.

[Zhade]

115. The DNC did not do this.

NT!

[Birthmark]

12. Not my problem.

Dean took away my vote for the actions of others. In a civilized country, that would be illegal. I should personally have to do something wrong to be personally penalized.

Even the Republicans couldn't bring themselves to disenfranchise their voters completely.

The DNC apparently doesn't have the scruples of the Republicans. That should give anyone pause for thought.

[seabeyond]

21. that is such bullshit. your people took away your votes. and once again dean offers solution

and your people dont try to resolve. how can you seriously immediately and consistently point finger at dean. i really am so surprised people can see a rule, break a rule, know the repercussion, then.... surprised when they have to pay it for breaking rule, ... but even at that, dean try to help our, was refused HIS helping hand and still you go after him. odd

[Birthmark]

92. Nope. You are letting the DNC off the hook.

The DNC was NOT required to disenfranchise FL and MI voters. That's just sloppy thinking and completely untrue.

[spoony]

97. Hear hear

There is no justification to the DNC's reaction. I'm so damn tired of the "hey they broke the rules" chanters. Disenfranchising millions of Dems is a pretty huge penalty for a paltry rule violation, like the death penalty for stealing bread.

[Birthmark]

102. It;'s even worse than that.

It's like the death penalty for us, because our grandfather stole bread.

[spoony]

103. Too true!

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[verges]

110. You're right.

"Punishment shouldn't be so punitive.":eyes:

[Zhade]

116. The DNC didn't disenfranchise anyone. EVERYONE KNEW THE RULES GOING IN.

You just don't want to face that fact.

[spoony]

159. And the voters had NO CHOICE, so why punish them?

[xxqqqzme]

93. Read the thread - read ALL the

links madfloridian PROVIDED you. Then come back and post something that actually makes sense and follows the thread.

I am totally exhausted by this willful ignorance by Democratic Florida voters. Madfloridian has done a stellar job in keeping up w/ this story AND keeping us all informed. I know more because of her diligence and have followed her postings w/ every development. And I don't even live in Florida!

[madfloridian]

96. That means a lot. Since there is no longer a requirement for truth in posting

there is no longer a way to get the truth out.

[LittleClarkie]

128. If it's not your problem, then I guess your vote wasn't that important

if you can not fight for it.

[Catherina]

14. Great thread. Thanks n/t

[BelgianMadCow]

15. is Dean holding our backs? 10th rec

great info!
:thumbsup:

[madfloridian]

64. Yes, I think he is trying to do just that against very great odds.

.

[BelgianMadCow]

120. wishing

he beats those odds.

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. kick

[Liberal Dose]

23. I hate Bill "always vote in favor of torture" Nelson with a passion. He is the worst kind of DINO

Freaking giant lump of Republican slime asshole. So glad I don't live there anymore.

[Window]

26. Thanks for this post. Have to sort through a lot of crap for something reliable.

Peace:thumbsup:

[MonkeyFunk]

27. I admire your tenacity

in trying to disenfranchise your own state.

[seabeyond]

28. how is mad trying to disenfranchise her/his state?

or do you just throw out random comments attacking people without fact

[MonkeyFunk]

30. She's been on a campaign for months

to make sure the Florida delegates don't get seated. She considers it an affront to the honor of St. Howard of Burlington.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Why Can't Florida Just Have A ReVote?

Let me see...

Mr. X can rob a 7-11, then take the clerk in the back room and rape her, be convicted of multiple felonies, serve his time, have his rights restored, register as a Republican and have his primary vote for president count...

I'm a law abiding citizen and my vote in Florida for the nominee of my party won't count because I am a registered Democrat...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. The candidate that you voted for in that election agreed to the ruling.

All the candidates did.

Don't feel disenfranchised, feel represented. :)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. The Florida Legisature Moved The Date

Last I checked the Republicans have the State House and veto proof majorities in both the Senate and House... And I didn't vote for any of them...

Anyway punishing me for something somebody else did is as morally justified as me being beating my neighbor's ass because his adult son stole my lawn mower...

Oh, so you were cool when thousands of Florida voters were disenfranchised in Palm Beach County in 00...After all the Supervisor Of Elections was a Democrat and she approved the flawed butterfly ballot...I also believe Dade and Broward had Democratic Supervisor Of Elections as well...

Right



:-)

[madfloridian]

49. Spreading lies works, unfortunately. But Hillary will lose the general

if she and her minions continue to push for this issue and lie.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. I See Your Carefully Avoided The Moral Dilemma Of Punishing Mr.X For Mr. Y's Actions

The voters of Florida didn't do a damn thing to deserve being disenfranchised...

The only difference between that and the Israeli Defense Force blowing up a house because a terrorist once lives there is the scope...

No to collective punishment...That's not how we roll in America...

[madfloridian]

54. They have been offered a do-over. They were offered it several times

It is the DLC Hillary folks who are refusing to see the truth.

She is running a scorched earth campaign.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. Bill Nelson Just Said He Wants A Do-Over

The problem is nobody wants to pay for it...

[madfloridian]

73. Bill Nelson said Hillary would get Florida seated.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1793

[bbgrunt]

68. we all suffer because of b* policies, yet most

of us had nothing to do with his getting elected. Righteous indignation does no good when the whole ship is sinking.

[demo dutch]

138. You want her to lose because you're an Obama supporter

[madfloridian]

150. I want our party to win. But not this way. No, I don't want her to lose.

But the way she is doing it will drive many people away.

[Life Long Dem]

45. They deprived themselves of the right to vote when they refused to go along with the rules

What happens when people cut in front of you in line? You tell them to get back in line. Now what if they refuse to return to line? What your saying is they should be allowed to cut in front of you. Then the next election we should allow every state to do the same.
:patriot:

[spoony]

99. Who's "they"? The voters? They didn't do shit wrong.

[Justitia]

88. Doncha mean "in not allowing Clinton to steal the election"? -eom

[Zhade]

117. What an idiotic untruth. She's pointing out the facts you just don't like.

Clinton doesn't get to cheat. Sorry.

[susankh4]

29. I feel sorry for Howard Dean

Because... no matter what he says now, the MSM is running with this idea that "the dems say every vote counts, but they aren't counting FLA & MI." Crist said it this morning. It is being played over and over.....

Bad for us dems.

Very bad.

[madfloridian]

55. Her campaign is trying to make him irrelevant.

They won't accept a chance to do it over under party rules. They just stamp their feet and send out surrogates to spin.

[susankh4]

69. Crist?

is a surrogate for who???

That doesn't make sense.

[madfloridian]

76. Crist and Granholm....sitting in a tree. K i s s i n g

They worked together with Nelson and others to bypass the DNC and get this public to hurt Dean as chairman.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2963505

[susankh4]

109. I don't see Crist

as a Clinton surrogate. Do you?

Granholm I don't know much about.

But I think we have to be careful about where we place blame.

[madfloridian]

129. Tactics....

Crist is working with Granholm to undermine Dean and help keep Hillary in the race so McCain can coast a while without too much scrutiny.

Don't lecture me about placing blame when the wife of a former president is asking for do-overs so she can win.

[susankh4]

137. I don't buy your conspiracy theory

and, BTW, I also see nothing "neutral" about your bloggery over this scandal.

[madfloridian]

141. I don't expect you to agree.

I post the truth as I see it. And right now the truth as I see it and as I have seen it for a long time.....is that Fl and MI are acting like fools for a reason. I can't prove the reason, but I have done enough research to know that it only benefits Clinton and no one else.

Florida Dems worked with the GOP on purpose.

[susankh4]

142. Well, whatever the relationship is

between the two parties in your state... it is really a stretch to call Crist a Clinton surrogate.

The Clintons get slammed with this kind of sh** all the time. It is just not necessary. They have dedicated their whole lives to the Dem party. And some of us here actually like them.

[madfloridian]

143. Did you read what I said? Crist wants to help keep her in the race

to benefit McCain.

I had no problems with Hillary until she demanded FL delegates count.

Now I can not look at her on TV. If a problem is there now that wasn't there before....then it is her. not me.

[susankh4]

165. Whatever Mr. Crist wants

he is not a "surrogate" for Ms. Clinton.

That is the language I was objecting to.

Florida's delegates should be seated. They should re-do their primary (or not) depending on the decision of the DNC in collaboration with state level authorities. This is a democracy and people are entitled to vote.

Howard Dean is being made to look like a fool in front of the whole of the nation. This, more than the lengthy primary, is what will hurt is in the end. Why?

1) The Republicans are, quite rightly, pointing out via the MSM that the party for democracy casually disregards democracy.
2) There will be no end to the accusations that we, as dems, abhor "state rights"... after this is over. It won't play well to the general public.

Heck, it's not playing well to me... and I have been a dem for 32 years.

[Shakespeare]

80. I think you're exactly right. There's a segment of the party that has hated him from day one.

And the Clintons are part of that segment. McCauliffe has taken every opportunity to criticize Dean publicly (going back years now), and it's disgusting.

[susankh4]

166. I don't hate Mr. Obama

I just don't like the strong arming of the party, by certain party elders who are pushing him into the position he's in. They are allowing crossover republicans and independents to steal *our* election for us, and set our agenda.

[UALRBSofL]

32. Can you post more then a gossip column because it's obvious

your posting articles from talking heads. You could take this article and switch it with Obama's name and it would still be a gossip column. Unless you have a prudent and factual article I will take this as a grain of salt.

[blm]

35. It's IN THE TAPED NPR INTERVIEW - this is no surprise to anyone paying attention to

the last two years of actions by Clinton loyalists to undermine Dean at the DNC - just as they undermined Gore's in 2000 and Kerry in 2004, just to hang onto their dominance in a party structure they were using to promote only their own power.

[UALRBSofL]

40. Some Obama supporters have been taking there ques

over the past 8 years from Karl Rove from the posts I've been reading.

[blm]

44. Baloney - stick to the FACTS and step away from the whine reflex. Bushes and Clintons are allies

and have been for decades.

The day Rove points this out and discusses wthat alliance, THEN you can safely make your assertion, but we both know that is NEVER going to happen, don't we? You just regurgitate what SOUNDS good completely uncaring of whether you are making an accurate statement.

What does Rove have to do with Dean's statement on NPR about the refusal of Mi and Fl to discuss the matter before they went to the media?

Distracting from the actual issue is a Rove tactic. Isn't it?

[madfloridian]

56. Yes, blm, you are right.

It is going to start being very obvious. All the stuff you have said, that I have said. It may be too late for the party to hold together.

[WilyWondr]

43. Any1 pushing for FL/MI delegates to be seated

is not interested in facts. The facts would tell them that it will not/should not happen. If they want to know why this happened they can look at their state legislature(their representatives).

Did all of you FL and MI whiners contact your state representatives last year when they changed the date of the primary in spite of the DNC telling them their delegates would not be seated if they did?

Are there any facts supporting the idea of changing the rules in the middle of the primary season?

[GeorgeGist]

42. Michigan taxpayers, not the DNC, paid for their Primary ...

if I were a Michigan taxpayer I'd expect the Governor to disregard the wishes of the DNC.

[madfloridian]

47. Big tough MI should disregard the rest of the party and go their own way?

Cute.

Very cute.

[PassingFair]

151. I'm a Michigan tax payer and a voter. We TOLD the legislators (in committee)

...that we DID NOT WANT the early primary
if it meant that all of our candidates were
not on the ballot.

The Governor DISREGARDED our wishes.

[cyclezealot]

172. What are you talking about

NH, Iowa, SC, NV did a darn good job of eliminating our choices here in MIchigan , regardless of when the vote was held.

[WilyWondr]

46. Kicking for the facts

:kick:

I am so tired of this FL/MI issue. I wish people would read the excellent facts you post, but apparently the dis-information machine is on high again.

I have heard this FL/MI story a couple times already this morning on MSNBC.

[madfloridian]

48. The media is not on Dean's side. Truth does not matter to them.

[madfloridian]

51. I am going to keep this kicked, because all the untruths are pushing it down.

:kick:

It would be an illegitimate win for Hillary.

I am so tired of the lies, and the spin.

DU never used to allow flat out lies to be posted. It really worries me a lot.

[madfloridian]

52. Oh dear God, the lies I see posted in GDP today. It is scary.

It does not speak well for this election to see such stuff going on here and in the media.

I think we will lost in the general.

[HooptieWagon]

78. Well, I am hopeful for the GE

But I agree that the lies being spread are getting out of control. It is apparent one side has embraced republican "values", and we can see which side that is. Thanks for keeping the Truth out there, mad.

[flpoljunkie]

58. Nelson is on MSNBC saying he wrote letter to Dean asking for the DNC to pay the $15M for a do over--

Or else...seat the delegates according to the results of the January 29th primary. ROFLOL!

Somehow I don't think Dean will be impressed with Nelson's appeal for a do over to be paid for by the DNC. I find it outrageously arrogant.

[madfloridian]

60. The DNC offered a million, but that offer is now withdrawn.

I despise Nelson, and I don't even want to see Hillary's face on TV. It is getting that bad.

[flpoljunkie]

61. Am right there with you, madfloridian--altho I would add Bill, as well.

[joshcryer]

65. Yeah, they're backing him into a corner. If the delegates show up at the DNC and aren't allowed in?

Or allowed to be seated? Whoa whoa. :)

So Dean comes out today saying "A do-over is the best solution," and suggesting that state parties come up with the money to do it.

It's quite beautiful. Now if they bring the delegates he can at least say "I told you to do a do-over."

Whether it will wash is another story.

[wileedog]

84. That's $15M

"Nelson is on MSNBC saying he wrote letter to Dean asking for the DNC to pay the $15M for a do over--"

That is $15 million that won't go to defeating John McCain if Dean for some reason gives in to the pressure.

Tell me again how her staying in a campaign she cannot possibly win is not hurting the party.

[bbgrunt]

62. it's obvious to me that we have a big stinking

turd called the DLC that needs to get flushed.

[frog92969]

106. We need a plunger

because it's stopping up the works.

[madfloridian]

63. Hillary's face was just on TV, hubby yelled turn it off.

He and I can not even stand to watch her on TV now. To me truth and integrity matter.

[joshcryer]

66. If "integrity" mattered to you, then you wouldn't be so vocal about disenfranchising voters

Seriously.

[bbgrunt]

72. wow. I feel the same way. I have to turn off any media

when I hear her voice. It is time for Hilary supporters to explain why H is any different than Nader who they endlessly accuse of being a delusional egomaniac intent on destroying the "party".

[spoony]

100. So you're really just doing this act as a political hack against Hillary.

Gotcha.

[madfloridian]

101. I am speaking truth because her campaign and her supers won't.

The truth is all I am concerned about, but I am learning to detest her and her tactics.

I was not that way before.

Maybe I am tired of trying to get the truth while her allies like Granholm team with Repubs.

[Zhade]

119. Don't get tired - you're doing an honrable job getting the truth out.

Stupid conservative Clintbots don't care about the truth, but many of us nonaffiliated (I don't support either) deeply care.

You're doing a public service!

[madfloridian]

67. NPR ..Dean said frankly it would split the Democratic party if rules were broken,

He says they have tried to negotiate with the FL and MI parties for a long time and basically been told they are not interested.

He said no private overtures were made, they just started public overtures.

He says the DNC had a plan for how to run the campaigns, everyone including FL and MI voted for it.

Said the problem with FL moving forward was it was incredibly disrespectful to those who followed the rules and kept their word, it also stepped on SC which was the DNC's way of including large numbers of African Americans in the process to select the nominee.

[joshcryer]

70. Too bad for Dean he has no control over what the two states can do.

He doesn't want them showing up at the DNC with the intent to shove them out the door that's for goddamn sure.

[flpoljunkie]

79. CNN's Bill Schneider just said FL and MI 2 of 4 states where R's outnumbered D's in primary voting.

Every other state has had record Democratic turnout. No way should the voters of Florida or the DNC accept the January 29th primary results as legitimate!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

74. Great article, thanks for posting.

[psychmommy]

75. don't be discouraged by the ignorant madfloridian

you have been bringing du the the knowledge for quite sometime. i thank you for the facts and just the facts. the dnc shouldn't have to pay for crap. fl and mi need to hold their elected officials responsible and run them out of there. they sold their people out!
the delegates should not be seated-that equals voter disenfranchisement. some one mentioned what the repubs did-allowing some of the delegates to be seated. that was within their rules, not ours. do not compare us to them. everybody voted and agreed. now these states sit there w/egg on their faces because they really could have made a difference and now they can't. leapfrog that fl & mi.

[madfloridian]

77. It is discouraging. Used to be things that were blatantly untrue...

were not allowed here. Now the media spins until people don't believe the truth.

[psychmommy]

90. keep on putting the truth out.

we should show dean support and keep the info out there. the media courts controversy for ratings. we need to educate our dems-not everybody else. you are doing your part and we thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!
be encouraged and keep on writing. yours isn't the only voice out there but, yours is the first one i heard. you are getting through otherwise people would just ignore you.
1st they ignore you
then they underestimate you
then they fight you
then you win.

they're fighting you now, a win is near!!!!

[bbgrunt]

82. thanks for the added info. Good luck with the recount.update,

mad. it is really important that people understand just WHO is responsible for this mess and how the DLC and the clinton machine have been and are waging a war against progressives rather than against repukes.

[madfloridian]

85. What I post here can not undo what the media does with their spin.

It is hopeless.

[madfloridian]

83. Email from the state party chairwoman....they will try to get Jan 29 delegates seated.

if their demands are not met. This is a confusing letter, but I think that is the gist.

"Obviously, these primaries are the talk of the political world, and some are even suggesting that Florida hold a run-off election between the top two Democratic primary vote-getters, which happen to be Senators Clinton and Obama. However, this is not a time to panic or jump to any conclusions simply because the Republicans have a nominee.

"It is important to remember that the Democratic nominating process does not end until June 10. The Florida Democratic Party continues to work with our leadership, Sen. Clinton, Sen. Obama and the Democratic National Committee to ensure this state is fully represented at the National Convention.

"We have discussed many things, ranging from the plans for the general election to a potential alternative primary to the process for appealing to the credentials committee of the National Convention to seat our delegates as currently allocated.

"It is important also that we are clear about one issue. At this time, no suggested alternative process has been able to meet three specific and necessary requirements: the full participation from both candidates, a guaranteed commitment of the millions of dollars it will cost to conduct the event and a detailed election plan that would enfranchise all Florida Democrats, including our military service members serving in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

"The Florida Democratic Party cannot consider any alternative that does not meet these requirements. Indeed, it is very possible that no satisfactory alternative plan will emerge, in which case Florida Democrats will remain committed to seating the delegates allocated by the January 29th primary.

"We continue to move ahead with preparations for an unprecedented coordinated general election campaign. The people of Florida, like most Americans, are eager for change - not more of the same from McCain - and in November, we will make the Democratic nominee the next President of the United States of America."

Can you say brokered convention? Can you say broken party?

We turn off the TV now when Hillary is on. We can not bear to look at her.

[Sterling]

86. I used to like Dean, now it is clear he is some kind of

Stalinist asshole. Anyone who thinks it is ok to disenfranchise whole states from their say in this election is not a true believer in open democracy and no friend of the people. PS. I think HC and Obama are terrible candidates. I am sure one of them will beat McCain but only because Bush has made things way too bad for any Rep to win this time.

I would just like to believe especially after the stolen elections of 200 and 2004 that "progressives" actually give a shit that people get their say in who their leaders are. What I see her are people willing to cheat and ignore others rights just to see their candidate succeed. Its pathetic and a huge turn off to anyone who honestly wants to live in a fair and free society.

Fuck politics.

[madfloridian]

89. That's sad.

.

[Sterling]

148. Yes it is sad, sad for our country.

We deserve better. The people in MI and FL deserve better. The party is extremely arrogant to think this is ok and god forbid it come back to haunt us in the GE.

[madfloridian]

157. This is not Hillary's party. It is not Florida's party. Nor is it MI's party.

It belongs to all of us equally. Thank God Dean understands that.

It does not belong to the insiders anymore.

[joesmo2008]

181. It belongs to all of us MINUS Florida & Michigan *NT*

[Zhade]

123. They disenfranchised themselves, you fucking moron.

Man, you Clintbots just lie all day long for your failed candidate. Pathetic.

[Sterling]

147. I made it very clear I don't support either candidate, get a grip

Or better yet get an anger management therapist, "You fucking moron". Jesus, a lot of you people are like fucking cult members. To the point the idea that common decency and respect for your fellow citizens rights to vote don't mean shit to you as long as you perceive it helps your cult leader or, "candidate" (cough).

In fact the primary system is screwed up all together. By the time I got my chance to vote I only had HC and Obama to chose from. There should be a nation wide primary, end of story. Then each state gets to chose from the entire field of candidates. What we have now is a stupid dog and pony show. I am pleased to say I did not vote in the primary because both HC and Obama are borderline offensive to me. Honestly it may be tough to bring myself to even vote for either of them in the GE. People like you don't exactly win me over either. Lucky for the party we could field a turd and win this election. Too bad for the country we don't have any one better to offer.

There is nothing that excuses disenfranchising your fellow citizens right to be heard in the selection of who will lead them. If you don't care about that then you really are a giant douche.

I actually kinda prefer Obama. HC is my senator and I hate her. Obama seems like a lot of talk and little real action. Maybe he will surprise me. His supporters are not impressive however. For that matter neither are HC's but seriously, you suck.

[spoony]

161. This isn't about Hillary you berk

And the voters didn't do ANYTHING that justifies taking away their votes. How you chucklefucks can seriously sit about saying the voters are at fault and deserve to be disenfranchised is just astonishing.

[swishyfeet]

130. There is a very good reason for NOT allowing FL...

To pull that crap and jump in front, and it actually SERVES democracy.

First, let me say that as an Oregonian, "enfranchisement" is beyond my wildest frigging dreams. We dont' count out here in the least. Second, (no offense Madfloridian) wtf has Florida done for us lately?

Back to my point, if Florida were allowed to jump to the front of the line, it would just guarantee that only big money establishment candidates would run the show. I've done my share of whining about Iowa and New Hampshire, but everyone has a chance to get their message out there - even if the MSM won't listen.

Florida is too big and expensive and will just kill off the budgets of all those little guys we'd like to hear from.

[madfloridian]

139. Hey, no offense taken. I agree with you, and good post.

Welcome to DU.

Florida's me first attitude will hurt the whole country. It might even keep us from winning in November.

[Sterling]

149. Why have a line at all? Interesting point you raise.

In Oregon you are so far at the "end of the line" you really don't have a very broad field to choose from at all. I am in NYC and by the time I got my chance to vote I only had 2 candidates I do not like to choose from. The only fair and practical solution is to have a single nationwide primary. Let all of us have the chance to vote for who we want, not what is left over.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE TO TAKE A CITIZENS RIGHT TO VOTE AWAY, PERIOD (even felons should get to vote IMHO). Especially because of something a state government did. It is simply offensive to the idea of a open and fair democracy and makes me ashamed to be a registered democrat presently.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

87. thank you MadFloridian

kicked and RECOMMENDED

[madfloridian]

105. Kick because of all the lies here at DU today.

.

[Capn Sunshine]

107. Yes, they would rather LIE than face us in a REAL CONTEST

That's the take-away fom this.

They KNOW what the results would be.

[madfloridian]

140. Did you see on Countdown that Hillary does NOT want a do-over here?

What? After all the crap? Hope someone gets the video up soon.

[Ken Burch]

164. Of course she doesn't. She just wants her bogus Florida delegates seated, no questions asked.

n/t.

[frog92969]

108. I'll kick to that.

Thanks madfloridian.

K&R

[LittleClarkie]

118. I stand with Governor Dean. I am convinced this is DLC inspired

They hate the man, even when he's winning. Esp. when he's winning. I fear for the 50 state strategy if they get in to power.

[Zhade]

124. Just remember, a lot of us warned about the DLC years ago and were mocked.

Sucks that we might have been right.

[LittleClarkie]

126. I never mocked

I may have stood up for the DLC DUers right to speak on the board without bashing, but I did not mock.

And for that I was sometimes called DLC.

It is only recently that I have seen the full picture though. It's not their philosophy that worries me near as much as the way in which they go about getting and retaining power. Too Rovian.

I hope Hillary's rejection of the 50 state strategy kicks her in the butt. You can see her discounting the states she doesn't think she can win and putting emphasis on the ones she thinks she can. And I do think the folly of that strategy has been seen.

[Moochy]

170. Their Pocket Ace

when the Superdelegate firewall broke down.

[RichardRay]

127. God Damn it! NOBODY is being disenfranchised!!!

Nobody in Florida or Michigan is disenfranchised, they just have funky state party leadership. You can't complain about infringement of First Amendment rights if you're in my living room and I tell you to shut up. If you go outside and stake out a piece of public space you can complain bitterly it someone tries to tries to limit your speech in that case.

Voter disenfranchisement is about preventing people from voting in our nation's elections; that's right just like speech. Party candidate selection is NOT part of the country's electoral process, that's the party's living room. The party can decide how to select its candidate any way it wants to. Hell, they could make a rule to have a trial by combat and it would be entirely in bounds.

[madfloridian]

175. Amen...I hate that word "disenfranchise"...It is just spin.

:hi:

[demo dutch]

134. and about f-king time to!!! If the DLC doesn't resolve it it will cost them the election.

[Laelth]

144. Great interview from Dr. Dean.

He's a class act.

:patriot:

-Laelth

[demo dutch]

145. Yeah right!

[Sterling]

154. Maybe no one should be allowed to vote?

Surely every state and individual has done something equally as terrible as changing a freaking election date to deserve being left out of the process. Lets just let the DNC pick our leaders? Might as well. Save ourselves a lot of time worrying about who to choose as our leaders? Why not?

Maybe we could start by taking womens rights to vote away, then blacks and just make our way back to the days of feudal lords?

[spoony]

160. Read 127, that's basically what they're saying

You see, we don't have the "right" to vote because it's the party's "property" and we should just feel lucky we're invited to meekly express our opinion.

[RichardRay]

168. Dear Spoony - try again

You're perfectly free to vote in this country's elections. You can vote for anyone you want to vote for. No one has any right to restrict that, and no one in the DNC is trying to. What you don't have is the right to do is the change by caveat a decision made by the party just because it doesn't suit you right now.

If you don't like the way the Democratic Party is doing it, you've got options: Get involved with the party's organization, do some work. You can't change the past, but maybe you can have things be closer to your liking in the future. If you don't care for that, then feel perfectly free to form another party and pick your candidates via the I-Ching or a Ouija board or anything else you want. Of course, your ability to actually have any marginal influence on the direction or actions of the government of the country will be nil, but that's up to you.

[saltpoint]

163. Dean is right.

[eilen]

169. When will people learn to think out of the box?

As far as I understand, voters in Florida and Michigan can vote in the General Election. No one is taking their vote away.
From what I understand about political parties, they have a convoluted manner in choosing their candidates. Some parties just endorse a candidate, like the Libertarian party, the Green Party, the Working Families Party. The two major political parties in this country (I still am embarrassed we only have 2) are Democrats and Republicans. These parties have national chairman to their committees which make up the rules for selecting their candidates. Each state has local committees that follow the National Committee-- kind of like a National Board of a union and it's regional locals. The National sets the rules, allocates delegate spots and the Local follows them and assigns spots to delegates to ensure a fair, equitable and tamper free election. The National looks at the big picture in the decisions it makes. For example, scheduling the primary dates to make sure that particular groups get more of a voice based on the districting of the states. The Local is more concerned with themselves, the state legislators are concerned with the economic impact of their place in line.

Two different states decided not to follow the National Committee's rules in the Democrat Party. The DNC said, you will void your delegate spots if you don't follow the rules. One state legislature, Florida has a history of incompetent decision making in the planning and execution of elections. Regardless of how these states arrived at their decision to "secede" from the spirit and regulations of their national leadership, the fact is the national was very clear on the consequences and EVERY CANDIDATE pledged to uphold the decision of the National Committee considering they will expect strong support from this National Committee when it comes to the General Election. Now one candidate has conveniently "found her conscience" and has decided to champion the skewed elections that took place in both states where she conveniently was on both ballots. I wonder if she would have found this conscience if it was unfavorable towards her electorally?

The DLC seems to me to be a totally different party in regard to its stand on issues and if it wants decision making powers and to be involved with elections, perhaps they should produce their own candidates and declare themselves a different party instead of tampering with the DNC? This would be much less confusing.

Hillary could be the DLC (or whatever name they will give themselves) candidate
Obama could be the DNC candidate
McCain as the RNC candidate
Kucinich as the Progressive Party candidate
Edwards as the Working Families Party candidate
Nader as the Green Party candidate.
Ron Paul can be the Libertarian candidate

We all get a choice and a vote and there is a variety in the field and the 24 hour news channels will have more people to talk about and interview.

Everyone can save a lot of money and energy arguing with each other. Because I don't know about you, but the amounts of money that are being spent on this campaign is totally obscene, esp with this economy we are struggling in.

Now where do I pick up my Nobel Prize?

[Moochy]

171. Thank you for posting the facts madfloridian

:yourock:

[madfloridian]

178. It does not matter. Truth does not matter here at DU anymore.

People just post anything and it sticks.

[madfloridian]

174. Kick because people are just spouting nonsense again.

,

[madfloridian]

177. Kick again because of the lies being told.

.

[RichardRay]

180. Kick since it's been awhile

and the same claims are being made by people who really want to believe New Speak will work.

[madfloridian]

182. This should not be forgotten....the bypassing of the party's main committee.

It said so much about attitude.

[madfloridian]

183. Kick..because the spin is starting again.

.