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I’ve Come to Hope that Obama Wraps up the Nomination as Quickly as Possible

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:44 PM
Original message
I’ve Come to Hope that Obama Wraps up the Nomination as Quickly as Possible
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 09:41 PM by Time for change
When John Edwards bowed out of the presidential race a few weeks ago I was bitterly disappointed. I vowed to vote for him anyhow (and I did), in the hope that any additional delegates that he won, or any additional votes that he received in the primaries would give him more influence at the Democratic National Convention. I continued to cling to the rapidly fading hope of a deadlocked convention, with the view that a deadlocked convention could turn to Edwards, or possibly someone else, such as Al Gore or Wes Clark, whom I much preferred over the two remaining candidates.

But I’ve now come to believe that that would be a very destructive course. For me, the straw that broke the camel’s back was when Hillary Clinton recently came perilously close to suggesting that John McCain would make a better President than Barack Obama, by suggesting that McCain had “more experience” than Obama with regard to Commander-in-Chief responsibilities. Specifically, Senator Clinton:

Defending her provocative television ad suggesting he was not up to the challenge of answering the White House phone at 3 a.m. in a crisis, she told reporters at a news conference Monday in Toledo: “I have a lifetime of experience I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain (the presumptive Republican nominee) has a lifetime of experience he will bring to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he made in 2002″…


Crossing the line

I have always considered unwarranted negativity against fellow Democrats to be a virtual “deal breaker” as far as my Democratic primary vote is concerned. That is because as long as I have been voting for President (since 1972) the Republican nominee has been a catastrophic choice in my opinion. Therefore, unwarranted attacks by Democratic candidates against fellow Democrats suggest to me that the attacker has unbalanced priorities with respect to personal ambitions vs. the welfare of our country. Of course, one could say that that applies to most presidential candidates to some extent. But I do feel that Senator Clinton’s recent statement crossed a very dangerous line, thereby seriously jeopardizing the welfare of our country.

In the first place, her statement plays right into the hands of the Republican Party. They are almost certain to use that stupid quote of hers if Obama runs against McCain. It plays right along with the only advantage that McCain currently holds – the ability to generate fear over the possibility of a supposedly “inexperienced” President Obama. If Hillary Clinton supports Obama in the general election over McCain she’s going to have a difficult time explaining away those remarks of hers, along with the stupid “3 a.m. White House phone call ad” that preceded those remarks.


Judgment is much more important than so-called experience

Secondly, those remarks of hers give John McCain way too much credit. It is not so-called experience that counts most in a Commander-in-Chief, but judgment. If experience was really all that important we’d be hoping for another four years of George Bush and Dick Cheney. The very last thing that our country needs now is a President who intends to keep our country on its imperial course – in Iraq or anywhere else. Continued U.S. imperialism of the sort that we’ve seen for the past 7 years will mean the end of our Republic and very possibly the end of world civilization as we know it. Our nation is already at an historic low with respect to world opinion. Continuing on our imperial course will add to our record low international esteem and unite the world against us. John McCain’s vow to stay in Iraq for another hundred, thousand, or a million years is not the answer. The contrast on that score with Barack Obama is huge. Obama was against the Iraq War from the beginning, and he has vowed to reduce our presence in Iraq as quickly as possible upon becoming President.

Lastly, to imply that the only relevant experience that Obama has for the job is “a speech he made in 2002” is absurd. Besides being a U.S. Senator for four years, he has demonstrated an extensive grasp of foreign policy in his numerous speeches and debates. And again, his statements regarding our involvement in Iraq have consistently demonstrated far superior judgment to that of George Bush, Dick Cheney, or John McCain.


The scenario of a deadlocked Convention

As it is, the Democrats have an excellent chance of regaining the White House in 2009, and it is absolutely imperative that they do so. But a prolonged bitter fight characterized by repeated unwarranted attacks will erase any advantage that the Democratic presidential candidate now holds. It will not only lower both candidates in the eyes of many American voters, but it will also drain tens or maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars from their campaign chests.

Furthermore, although I have often hoped that a different candidate would be drafted at the convention, I can see negative consequences from that too. Though I don’t share the views of those who have supported Obama or Clinton from the beginning, there are tens of millions of those supporters out there, and I imagine that a good proportion of them might be bitterly disappointed if the Convention swings to a third candidate. What kind of dynamics that would have on the general election, I’m not sure, but I see a lot of negative potential there.

Furthermore, Obama seems to have some sort of magic touch with his ability to raise money. I doubt that any other candidate chosen at the convention will be able to equal that.


The need for a Democratic victory

I’ve already mentioned the dire need for our nation to reject the imperialism that has characterized it over the past 7 years. World-wide terrorist attacks are at an all time high under George Bush’s rule, and the Iraq War continues to (justifiably) stir up anti-American hatred and provide a recruiting tool for al-Qaeda. It will only get worse if we elect another imperialist-minded president.

Perhaps the future of our Supreme Court poses the most important reason for electing a Democratic President. In a recent post, I discussed the changes that John Dean and others believe will occur if one more radical right wing justice is appointed to the USSC. These include:
 The overturning of Roe v. Wade
 The total extinction of affirmative action
 The enabling of our states to overturn (page 68) our entire Bill of Rights without federal interference
 Radical curtailing of civil rights for women, homosexuals, and minority racial groups
 The declaring of environmental protection laws to be unconstitutional
 The widespread disappearance of habeas corpus
 The virtual creation of Christianity as a national religion
 The Dismantling of the Voting Rights Act of 1965

And then there’s a whole host of domestic issues. Many of us may have our differences with both Senators Obama and Clinton, but unlike John McCain they definitely do believe that government should be seen and used as a means to improve the lives of the American people. If you doubt that, see what Obama has to say about such domestic issues as health care, poverty, and education. You won’t find anything like that on John McCain’s website. McCain’s idea of good domestic policy is the continuation of Bush tax cuts for the rich, the overturning of Roe v. Wade, and in health care “Families should be in charge of their health care dollars” (Gee, why hasn’t that been tried before?), without provision of government assistance.


Some final words about Barack Obama

I’ve criticized Obama in previous posts for not being liberal enough in my view (especially in comparison with Kucinich and Edwards), especially for rhetoric which I found to be too harsh towards historic Democratic principles and too conciliatory towards the likes of Ronald Reagan. I have to say that I had a very negative visceral reaction to that kind of thing (and I still do). But never did any of that ever cause me to lose sight of the fact that Obama (and Clinton too) would make a far better President than any of the Republican candidates.

The Nation is one of our country’s most liberal/progressive news magazines, and it too has expressed a lot of concern over Obama’s candidacy for much the same reasons that I have. But since Edwards pulled out of the race, it had this to say about Obama's candidacy:

This magazine has been critical of the senator from Illinois… But… Obama has also exhibited a more humane and wise approach to foreign policy, opposing the Iraq War while Hillary Clinton voted for it, and has been a reliable progressive ally over the course of his career. While his rhetoric about "unity" can be troubling, it also embodies a savvy strategy to redefine the center of American politics… Most important, we feel his candidacy, in its demonstrated investment in organizing and grassroots activism as well as his personal appeal, represents the best chance to forge a new progressive majority. For these reasons we support Obama for President.

Obama's brand of grassroots politics should serve him well in the coming weeks. He has already galvanized a new class of supporters, delivered on the promise of turning out new voters and raised an astonishing amount of money from hundreds of thousands of small donors…

But the Obama coalition is relatively weak among Latino voters, as well as among the core Democratic constituencies of the elderly and the working class, who are most focused on bread-and-butter basics: making the economy work for the non-rich. As a moral and political imperative, he would do well to seize the mantle of equitable redistribution and broad economic security for those who live their lives on the precipice of bankruptcy and disaster.

While the GOP appears to be on the verge of nominating old war (mongering) horse John McCain… as we move toward November, we'll need all the energy we can get.

Yes indeed we will. I just hope that too much of that energy is not drained off in a fight between two Democrats.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. It is up to Hillary when she accepts the loss.
She can accept and bow out now, next week, or run the Party into the ground and accept it on the first vote at the COnvention.

Now, the RNC is outraising the DNC because all the Dem money is going to this fight she can't win.

Thanks Hillary!
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. You people crack me up when you talk of "running the party into the ground"
You really do. That's what the system is for...to let all the states vote for the Nominee. If neither candidate has a majority of the delegates by convention time, it's time to use the super delegates...people who can vote for whomever they want. Thats the system...learn it...live it...love it.


Hillary '08


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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. I'm in line with KO, Randi and others who think she'd rather McCain win (1 term) vs Obama
who would be 2 terms and his VP (AIN'T GONNA BE HER) might possibly get 2 terms which would mean she's out of a presidency. I don't believe she will ever win anyway-between the rights/independent's distaste for anything Clinton and the anti-war, anti dirty trick left's disgust for her rovian smear tactics, I think she has to hope she doesn't have future opposition from a NY progressive in the run for the senate. She made her bed with help from her henchmen Penn, Wolfson et al, now she can sleep in it.
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kick!
:kick:
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Sulawesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Huzzah!
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you very much for another excellent write
I'm agreed about the judgment versus experience subject, and I am looking forward to Obama exercising his experience as a constitutional law professor in restoring the rule of law and separation of powers to this nation.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. Thank you -- That is without a doubt one of the most important things he could do
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bleowheels Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. I've hoped for this the whole time. nt
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. Fellow Edwards refugee here
I was devastated when he dropped. The LA debate and Super Tuesday were depressing as all get out. I miss John's voice in this race.

I also now support Senator Obama.

Thanks for the well thought out, well spoken and well documented post.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. .
:toast:
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R I'm there, too, feeling that in spite of concerns about Obama...
...we aren't going to get what we wanted in terms of Kucinich or Edwards or Gore, but if Obama can win this, we'll avoid having McCain at the helm -- which is a nightmare of magnificent proportions.

It's hard to know what thin lines candidates have to walk just to get elected, and I'm hopeful that Obama will not lean too heavily toward the religious right, and will stick to the letter of constitutional law -- which he knows well. A recent post about his vetting with an old law school friend the legality of the telecom mess, and deciding what they'd done is illegal, is hopeful.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. "It's hard to know what thin lines candidates have to walk just to get elected"
Yes, I've thought about that a lot. It does worry me though that when a candidate has to say certain things to get elected, might he keep on saying (and doing) those things once elected?

But I have thought about the possibility that Obama could be a much better President than his rhetoric sometimes suggests. Maybe he'll even be a great one. It's happened before, and it will happen again.
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. Which of the remaining two is more likely to listen to Kucinich, Edwards, or Gore?
There is no way that Hillary would even take the time to listen to any of them. She has her own cadre of advisers, and she won't take any input from outside sources. That was one of the reasons that her health care attempt failed. Obama may not decide to heed the advice of any of them, but I'm pretty sure that he would at least listen to what they have to say.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. My feelings towards her have definitely changed in the last couple weeks...
I am a huge pragmatist. I try to gauge the best candidate to win the election because I think winning is job one. Anything else is a waste.

Prior to two weeks ago I had nothing personally against Hillary, but I was backing Obama because I believe he is the most formidable candidate, the likes of which has not been seen in a long time.

I look at candidates on TV and decide based on the entire package who I believe is the most electable, because I feel that there is certainly a large enough block of people who vote on their gut instinct who favor someone they like.

The GOP understands this. Karl Rove looks in the mirror and knows he can never be president.

The GOP fears a charismatic Democrat. Most of our candidates have been anything but. Not only is this candidate charismatic, he is tall, he has cute young children and an attractive wife who was not born a billionaire.

Hillary is not stupid. She knows Obama has the juice. She is putting her personal ambition before the goal of a democratic 44th president. The Supreme Court is too much too risk for Hillary.

I used to have nothing against her. Now I really dislike her.



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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. Your 'handle' goes perfectly with this thread! Thanks for another
great, thoughtful read.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. Thank you -- I've changed my mind many times between Clinton and Obama since Edwards dropped out.
But since Hillary implied that McCain would be a better Commander-in-Chief than Obama I doubt that I'll be changing my mind on that subject again.
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MinneapolisMatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. What a wonderful post.
You articulate EXACTLY how I feel.

K&R!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
43. Thank you -- It's great to know that people feel as I do about this.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's absolutely wonderful to see you back here and to read, once again, one of your
wonderful posts. You add so much to this forum. :applause:

Keep your chin up.. and fight the good fight with us. I miss JE, too :hi:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Thank you so much
We just have to get over these things and move on. :hi:
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
12. With each passing day
it's so evident it's time for this to be over.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. TSDR
that's my new shorthand here- "too sensible didn't read"

Thank you for the rare well explained and thought out post.

I've gone over to the madness- to think I was once undecided, and now find myself close to despising Hillary.

For me, it has been her support of honoring the "results" in Florida and Michigan that has pushed me over the edge. I consider that the dirtiest of politics and such a brazen and vile reach for power without even a hint of shame.

I am truly hoping that Democrats will slowly react to what is clear as day- she is unfit to be our nominee and her brand of politics needs to be thrown back into the gutter, where it belongs.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
46. I agree with what you say about Florida and Michigan
There is little that is more devisive than trying to change the rules aftery they've already been decided upon.

I remember that scenario from the first political convention I watched -- 1972 and the nomination of George McGovern. McGovern went into the convention with a commanding lead, and it looked like the only way to stop him would be to change the rules -- so that's what his opponents tried to do. It was a very divisive convention, and the Dems never recovered from it.
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thank you Time For Change ......
once again you effectively and succinctly put into words the concerns going through so many minds lately. The sooner this primary season ends, the better. Peace. :thumbsup:
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NoFederales Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. Spot On! But may scorched earth tactics blister the arsonists. nt
NoFederales
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
17. kicked AND recommended
:kick:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
18. Time For Change,
Indeed.. Thank you for your in depth post and so glad you're now supporting Obama.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
21. The only way this will happenis if congress Dems come out in mass and demand a civil promary.
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 03:12 AM by cooolandrew
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
24. Dems have a history of good quality presidents, Obama isn't ready
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 07:33 AM by OzarkDem
Let's not blow it this time by nominating a media creation over the better quality candidate.

Hillary Clinton has a far better record, more experience and has developed a far better and more extensive policy agenda. Those are the characteristics Dems have always stood for. Let's keep that tradition going.
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. your measurements are subjective
"far better record" - that is easy to dispute, but such a dispute would be subjective.

"more experience" - more experience doing what. Now that Hillary is being taken to task a bit about her experience; her slogan of "ready on day one" doesn't seem to have the shine it once did. Her responses as to what makes her so experienced are lacking in many peoples eyes. Her argument that she is more experienced has allowed her to stay in the race, but the subjective nature of what she is arguing constitutes meaningful experience keeps this issue from being a cut and dry one. Many people simply do not buy her argument (though many do).

"more extensive policy agenda" - Hillary certainly has a fairly extensive policy agenda, so does Obama. This really comes down to the particulars that interest a given person. I think most people don't see much of a difference between Hillary and Obama from a policy stand point, and rightfully so.

There is a reason why both of these candidate have made it this deep into the primary season. Both have made arguments regarding their viability in the GE that many Democrats have embraced, both have made arguments regarding their qualification that many Democrats have embraced. Both are very similar from a policy stand point.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Welcome to DU
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I've been here for years, but thanks for the welcome
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. In what way is Hillary's policy agenda so much more extensive than Obama's?
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 10:31 AM by Time for change
She'll have 8 years in the Senate, compared to his 4. That's something, but it's not "far more extensive" IMO.

Then you can compare her 8 years as First Lady to his years as a state legislator. I don't see that as a big advantage to her. She had the opportunity to learn a lot of things by watching, but that's not the same thing as having primary responsibility for a wide range of decisions. I don't see that as a big advantage for her either.

Like I said, I think judgment is more important than experience. HRC's vote on the IWR begs some very important questions, compared to Obama's response to the Iraq War, and that certainly ranks among her most important votes.

Anyhow, as I said in the OP, implying that McCain would make a better Commander-in-Chief than Obama shows some very poor judgment on her part IMO, and that was the deciding thing for me.
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tigervalentine Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. Dems also prefer good character in their candidates. Hillary isn't ready.
She has become despicable and I would not trust her to make good decisions. Her lack of good judgment is shining through in the deliberate misrepresentations she is throwing like mud.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
25. Bill and Hillary Clinton are like an 800 pound gorilla
I have nothing against a long primary provided the party leaders can prevent bloodshed.

Unfortunately, Bill and Hillary Clinton are a political 800 pound gorilla. They answer to nobody.

C'mon, who's going to tell Hillary that making a statement that John McCain would be a better commander in chief than Barack Obama is certainly beyond the pale of party loyalty. Howard Dean, Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Nancy Pelosi...Give me a break.

When you have one candidate who can rampage all over the place, who apparently does not give a flying fuck whether or not the Democrats win the White House if she is not the nominee, but who, because Bill Clinton has her back, can launch attack after attack on her opponant, demand that rules be changed to suit her candidacy and appears to be willing to split the party in order to get her way, something has to give.

Barack Obama had better start realizing what he is dealing with and channel his inner Chicago Pol and he'd better start doing it soon.
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Dollface Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
27. Coming from a disenfranchised state, I didn't care if we had a do-over because I will not vote
Republican and was content to wait until November. After HRC's remarks about McCain and Obama I would really like the opportunity to vote for Obama in a primary. I've don't hate HRC but am now officially disgusted and would prefer that she remain the Senator from New York.

(I am also an Edwards supporter. I hope he is our next attorney general. Can you imagine an AG that actually represents the people instead of the Prez?)
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
32. Judgment is much more important than so-called experience
First, read my tag line. Second, we've just gone through the saddest period of American history under a psychopath who said he knew how to "lead" and advised us to trust him based on his gut instincts. Sorry, but "I won't get fooled again" by an untested, unproven demagogue, yes demagogue, who asks us to hope our way out of the mess created by President Insane.

Experience is more important in this election than so-called, self-promoted, self-aggrandized judgment.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Since you believe experience is so important
Does that mean that you'd like to see Bush/Cheney serve another term?

That question is obviously facetious, since you've already expressed your opinion of Bush in your post above. But the fact is now that he has far more experience than almost anyone for the job of president. It seems that with your reasoning you should want to see him serve for several more terms. Or what about Cheney or George H W Bush or Rumsfeld. All those guys have lots of experience.

Another thing: It may be true that Obama is similar to Bush in 2000 with regard to lack of experience. But the comparison ends there. In almost every other way, they are far far different people.
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. True....
...President Insane has experience, but he learned nothing from it and kept repeating the same mistakes over and over again (the definition of insanity, doing something over and over again and expecting a different result). We simply can't afford another learning curve President, particularly one who has shown that his knowledge of pressing issues is micro-thin shallow.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. In what way to you think that he
"has shown that his knowledge of pressing issues is micro-thin shallow."?

Certainly the Iraq War is one of our major issues today. Do you think that Senator Clinton has shown better knowledge on that issue?
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Senator Clinton has sat in on countless, closed-door hearings...
...of the Senate Armed Services Committee. These hearings have given her a better idea of the scope of the Greek tragedy that has been the Iraq war. She can make better decisions because of that experience, Senator Obama cannot make that claim and frankly, and this comes from my experience, he has surrounded himself with second-tier military advisors. Clinton, on the other hand, does have a rolodex of first-tier advisors - such as General Shinseki - who were right to begin with.

And let's not discount the fact that when the Democrats were in the minority there was not much she could do to blunt the insanity of the Bush administration. Finally, her war vote was made with the understanding that President Insane would not rush to commit forces to this debacle. Unfortunately, given the climate of the country at the time, that was bad judgment (see tag line again). Senator Obama cannot claim that vote and never will be able to claim it.

See, civil discussion can break out over these two fine candidates.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Obama experience/judgment on international affairs
Here are some excerpts from Obama's speech on the Iraq War in 2002:
http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/Obama2002War.htm

He not only opposed the Iraq War, but IMO he showed an extraordinary degree of understanding of the right reasons for opposing it. You can call that experience or you can call it judgment, but the bottom line is that he was spot on when few were saying this sort of thing.

What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne...

Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power.... The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors...and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.

I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda...

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure that...we vigorously enforce a nonproliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair."

I agree with you that Bush's experience doesn't count for much because he's shown a complete inability to learn from experience. Does Clinton's vote on the IWR indicate that she's learned from that vote? Maybe, and maybe not, as far as I can see. If she would have acknowledged her mistake, as Edwards did, the answer to that question would seem more promising. Instead, she suggests that she made the right decision based on the information that she had at hand. You acknowledge that her vote showed bad judgment. I think the first step in learning from making a bad decision is to acknowledge that you've made a bad decision. She has never done that with regard to her IWR vote.


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Dollface Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Good point. But I'm still disgusted by her remarks.
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 12:38 PM by Dollface
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
36. National polling against McCain -- another reason to nominate Obama
Here are the latest head to head polls for Obama vs. McCain:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Newsweek: 3-6 Obama 46, McCain 45
Cook/RT Strategies: 3-2 Obama 47, McCain 38
ABC/WaPo: 3-2 Obama 53, McCain 42

On the other hand, Clinton and McCain are virtually tied.

Obama has consistently done better than Clinton in polling against Republican candidates.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
44. Thanks for a great and thoughtful post.
Like you, I was an Edwards supporter, and was very disappointed when he suspended his campaign. Initially, I was not sure of whether to go with Hilary or Barack. I thought I would just wait for the GE,and vote for whichever Dem was the nominee.

But like many here, I have been angered and disappointed by Hilary's remarks, putting McCain over Obama. It's fine for her to tout what she sees as her strengths compared to Obama's; that's what running for office entails. But when she talked up McCain as a way to tear down Obama, I found I just could not support her at all. What that said to me was that she sees herself as being more important than the party or the country. What she said was basically the same as an abusive partner threatening that if he/she can't have them, then nobody will.

Hilary didn't have to do that. She also didn't have to say that Obama is not a Muslim, "as far as I know." She is willing to throw Democratic principles overboard and play by the Republican playbook in order to secure the nomination. It makes me wonder what kind of President she would be. Would she truly work FOR the American people, or would her thirst for power place her more in the George Bush mold? I'm not saying she would be as bad as him, but I do wonder about it.

I don't want that kind of person in the White House. Obama isn't perfect, of course, but I'd much rather see him in the WH than McCain, who would finish the job of destroying us that Bush started.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Yeah, that's much the way I see it.
I think that she ended up stabbing herself with that remark about McCain being a better choice for Commander-in-Chief than Obama. I would hope that she apologize for that, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Very sad.

I'll still vote for her it she's the nominee (She'd be a much better choice than McCain, for many reasons), but I hope that doesn't happen, and it seems doubtful that it will.
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
47. ABC & NBC: Hillary Now Leads Obama in Popular Vote, and Dem Vote.

New Network Estimates: Hillary Now Leads Sen. Obama in Popular Vote

ABC & NBC reporting that Hillary’s received thousands more votes than Sen. Obama in this year’s contests

Hillary Clinton has received more votes than anyone else running for President this year, Democrat or Republican, according to new estimates from ABC and NBC News. The new numbers -- bolstered by decisive wins in Ohio, Texas, and Rhode Island. Following are the latest estimates from the networks:

ABC: Hillary Clinton has received 13,568,891 votes so far in primaries and caucuses while Sen. Obama has received 13,565,339.

NBC/MSNBC: Hillary Clinton has received 13,521,832 votes so far in primaries and caucuses while Sen. Obama has received 13,497,175.

In addition to the overall lead in votes, Hillary holds a significant lead in votes among Democrats. Hillary has received nearly 10.3 million votes among Democrats so far while Sen. Obama has received 9.2 million.
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