DU Presidential Poll.

[citizen snips]

Who will you vote for for President in the November Election?

[4MoreYearsOfHell]

1. Come on

this is too easy...

[citizen snips]

6. I know but the Freepers are here today.

In my last presidential poll only one person voted for Bush today four people are voteing for Bush.

[AntiCoup2K4]

2. Where's the "other" option?

Like oh maybe.....

I'll vote for Kerry if he kicks the Neocon shitbags off his campaign, renounces the PNAC agenda - NO MATTER WHAT NAME THEY CALL IT - and chooses a decent running mate

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. In your dreams? On Mars? It certainly doesn't exist on Earth or in reality

[AntiCoup2K4]

4. So what you're saying is?

I have to vote for an agenda written by neocon shitbags?

I guess that would bring up the old saying "you're either part of the solution, or part of the problem". And the soultion is removing neocon shitbags from the government.

I know which side I'm on. Where are you?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. No, I'm saying you have a choice of living in reality or fantasy.

Obviously if you are going to be obsessed with fantasy answers to real problems you will not be doing anyone any good.

[AntiCoup2K4]

7. So you're saying that the Kerry campaign absolutely endorses neocon agenda

and that anyone believing we can get these fucking traitorous bastards out of our government is "obsessed with fantasy answers"

Thanks for the clarification :hi:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. No I'm saying that in the real world, what you just wrote is a fantasy.

Why is it that you feel the necessity to make up a phony position and try to put it in my mouth? Is it too much of an effort to respond to what I'm actually saying?

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. WHAT phony position?

You seem to think that it's perfectly acceptable that neocon shitbag traitors are writing your candidate's foreign policy, and yet you claim the PNAC policies of Kerry would be better to the PNAC policies of Bush.

And when I ask if it would not indeed be better to NOT use PNAC policies at all, you claim I'm living in a fantasy world.

Sorry. Fascism is not acceptable. Regardless of what phony fantasy "progressive" label you put on it. Either Kerry loses the neocon shitbags, or he loses the election.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. LOL, when you attempt to state my position in stead of stating your own

I really don't care what words you want to pretend are coming out of my mouth.

I'm not going to sink to the level of dishonest discourse where I say things like "You seem to be saying..." or, "So you mean...."

instead I'll respond to what you actually say.

For instance you said I "claim the PNAC policies of Kerry would be better to the PNAC policies of Bush."

That is simply a false statement. I didn't claim that - in fact I haven't said any of the things you've claimed I've said.


Since we KNOW you aren't lying - there must be some other explanation for your unwillingless to actually respond to my real statements.

[AntiCoup2K4]

20. Question - Yes or No answer, please.

Do you support the policies of Will Marshall and Rand Beers?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. Which policy or policies are you talking about?

If you are looking for a knee-jerk answer from me, you are going to be disappointed.


I am willing to discuss any specific issue and give my opinion on it.

[AntiCoup2K4]

23. The grossly misnamed "Progressive Internationalism" policy

as written on the DLC/PPI site, and as endorsed by Kerry on his official site.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

24. You are making a false statement.

There is no endorsement of the "Progressive Internationalism" policy" as written on the DLC/PPI site on Kerry's site.


That is factually incorrect.

[AntiCoup2K4]

25. Then what is this?

Foreign Policy

“Americans deserve a principled diplomacy...backed by undoubted military might...based on enlightened self-interest, not the zero-sum logic of power politics...a diplomacy that commits America to lead the world toward liberty and prosperity. A bold progressive internationalism that focuses not just on the immediate and imminent, but insidious dangers that can mount over the next years and decade, dangers that span the spectrum from the denial of democracy, to destructive weapons, endemic poverty and epidemic disease. These are not just issues of international order, but vital issues of our own national security.”

-John Kerry

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/foreignpolicy/

[Feanorcurufinwe]

26. So if I use the words

"progressive internationalism " that means I am officially endorsing a policy on some other website that you say falsely characterizes itself as "progressive internationalism " ??

How much sense does that make? :shrug:


You used the word 'fascism'. Does that make you a fascist? lol

[AntiCoup2K4]

27. If I used "fascism" in a statement which advocated it as my own policy...

...then you could call me a fascist. But since I'm not a neocon shitbag like Marshall and Beers, you won't see me advocating such positions.

It's no coincidence that Kerry used the words "Progressive Internationalism". The full quote from his website above is obviously taken from the policy that Will Marshall the traitor wrote, and the DLC has every intention of advancing this whitewashed version of PNAC as part of the 2004 platform. Traitor Marshall says as much on the PPI/DLC website.

The nominee of the Democratic party should not associate himself with ANYONE who is part of these fascist traitors who created the so called war on terrorism as a vehicle for creating a global fascist state.

And since Kerry used their own language on his site, he can't claim ignorance of where the policy came from.

The Democratic party, and this country, deserve far better than a continuation of this fascist, treasonous policy.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. I accept the idea that you think Kerry is a fascist. But that is lunacy.

I don't think you are delusional, I think you have a delusional belief, unsupported by reality.

[AntiCoup2K4]

29. You still haven't answered the question.

Do you support this fascist, traitorous, neocon policy, or not?

[Foswia]

34. What? Thats not a fair queston

What if i asked "Have you stopped beating your wife, or not?"

What has kerry said that is part of a 'neocon policy'? Point to more than words, point to thoughts. If i started writing about my ‘progressives’ view that were really a thinly veiled fascists screed, would progressive be permanently tainted by you?

[AntiCoup2K4]

42. The question is very fair.

Kerry uses the exact same name for his proposed foreign policy, "progressive internationalism", that is used by the treasonous fascist neocon shitbag Will Marshall. There is no doubt from Kerry's description that he means the same thing by those words that his neocon shitbag traitor "advisers" do. If these are Kerry's words, which I assume they are, since he signed his name to them, then they must also be his thoughts.

My view of the word "progressive" isn't ruined by the DLC's misuse of it anymore than my view of the word "freedom" is altered by Junior's misuse of that word. But if I see Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh using the word "freedom", I know that they mean Junior's definition, not the real one. And by the same token, if I see Kerry or his surrogates in the DLC using an exact phrase, "progressive internationalism" used by PNAC traitor Will Marshall in the same context that he used it, then I know what the meaning is.

Your "wife beating" question is irrelevant, for I haven't presented any reason to assume I ever engaged in the practice of spousal abuse. However, if you were to see me playing golf with OJ Simpson or partying with Tommy Lee i.e. associating with known wife beaters, then you might have reason to suspect I would endorse such behavior.

In this case, your candidate is associating with those who abuse democracy, voting for their agenda, and using their language.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

45. Why won't you answer the question? Because you haven't stopped?

[AntiCoup2K4]

46. Or maybe...

Because someone who can't rationally defend an irrational policy decided to drag the admins into it?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

47. So you haven't stopped? Yes or no answer please.

lol

[AntiCoup2K4]

48. Haven't stopped what, exactly?

What am I supposed to stop doing?

Giving a shit?

Am I supposed to fall in line and let PNAC write MY party's platform? Is that the idea?

I don't think so.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

49. Will you renounce your support of the killing of this child?

Surely if it is fair for you to demand that I defend someone else's policy that I never espoused, it is fair for me to do the same thing in return.

[AntiCoup2K4]

50. Is that your answer?

Are you saying that you do NOT support the PNAC - written policy of "Progressive Internationalism" endorsed by John Kerry on his website.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. Is that your answer? Have you renounced your support of this killing?

You are just repeating the same false statement over and over.

As has been clearly demonstrated,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=496515&mesg_id=496713&page=
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=496515&mesg_id=496718&page=
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=496515&mesg_id=496727&page=

it is false, misleading and deceptive to say that "Kerry has endorsed" this policy.

Repeating falsehoods does not lend your argument credibity.

[AntiCoup2K4]

53. If Kerry does not endorse the policy, it would not be on his website.

And logic dictates that if you did not endorse the policy, you would have said so by now, rather than dodging the question through ridiculous strawman arguments or dragging the admins of this site into it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. It isn't endorsed on his site, no matter how many times you say it is.

Your assertions are false, your arguments are specious, your reasoning is flawed, and your efforts to defeat Kerry will fail.

[AntiCoup2K4]

56. My efforts to defeat Kerry? Now who's making up false assertions?

Never once have I mentioned anything about defeating Kerry. Your assertions are false, your arguments are specious, your reasoning is flawed, and your efforts to remove all non DLC thought from this board will fail.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Foswia]

33. Fascism is not acceptable? Fascism was not discredited!

Fascism is not acceptable? Fascism was not discredited! We'll have to wait for the new China to see how it works w/o Hitlers screw ups. If you look at what happened in Italy and Germany its nothing short of amazing.

[Demobrat]

8. As opposed to working hard to maintain the status quo

which of course is doing so much good for everyone, especially the unemployed and the soldiers who are not being allowed to come home from Iraq when their tours are over. Well, as long as you're OK.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. Bush and Nader are both working hard to maintain the status quo.

12. that's true

but I think that the point of the critique of Kerry is that he's not going to significantly change the status quo either.
If you disagree with this, and I'm sure you do, and you're still somewhat willing to engage in a discussion, which I assume you are (even if not with Anticoup2K, then how about with those who may be persuadable) then you should engage on the level of indicating how Kerry is significantly going to change the status quo. Discussions of fantasy and reality are entirely too abstract.
Specifics on the other hand are concrete.
edit
& I'm not sure it is true actually. Bush wants to go further than he has gone.
Nader is consciously working to change the status quo in the opposite direction. Your point I'm guessing is that Nader is being counter-productive and thus the result is maintaining the status quo, but I don't think that is his intention, even if I would agree that it is the probable effect.

[edzontar]

14. I am voting for Kerry. But that is no reason to stop working for a better.

World, whatever happens in November.

Whoever is in the WH, the struggle has to continue.

Complacency is the real enemy....

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. Bingo!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

15. Matters of degree.

Significant change :vs: insignificant change -- those are questions of judgement.

However, what I think is hard to dispute is that if you want change in this country, the best and most effective course of action in the near term, in the context of the Presidential election, is to vote for Kerry - not Bush, Nader or some other choice.

18. exactly

They are questions of judgement.
I agree with you about the most effective course of action in the near term.
My only possible caveat is that if you are in a state that is solidly Democratic, I would not begrudge someone voting for Nader. The only danger is that if too many people do that, it might turn out to not be solidly Dem after all.

[Demobrat]

19. And Kerry isn't?

He wants health care for everyone, just not any time soon. And he thinks the answer in Iraq is to send in more troops. What's different about that, exactly?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

22. What you wrote is false.

You have mischaracterized Kerry's positions. Why?, I don't know.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Foswia]

30. I voted for Bush to protest this insipid poll!

[mot78]

31. Probably not a good idea

I'm provoking lurkers to do it just to piss them off though.

[Foswia]

35. I love it! [nt]

[jonnyblitz]

57. these polls are flamebait posted just to stir shit.

so people can gasp and hiss at the ones who dont vote "correctly"

[citizen snips]

58. I did not post this poll to start a flame war.

I just posted so other DU'ers could get a feel on who is voteing for Kerry and who is voteing for Nader and to also show how many Freepers are lurking around on this message board.

[name not needed]

32. bush

just kidding. id vote for kerry.

[Rationality]

36. Dumb poll ((n/t))

[w4rma]

38. If you love this country and want to save it from destruction, vote Kerry

in November.

[IndianaGreen]

39. The only vote for Bush I am prepared to make...

is to convict the sob of war crimes.

[Hippo_Tron]

40. John Forbes Kerry and damn proud of it n/t

[Zynx]

41. Who are the 19 lunatics who voted for Nader?

[citizen snips]

43. Who are the 11 Freepers that voted for Bush?

In my last poll only one person voted for Bush.

[PATRICK]

44. Is this a flypaper poll?

n/t

[moez]

52. here's one...

http://www.unrepentantnadervoter.com

[MODemocrat]

55. John Kerry is this country's best hope

In the beginning, I supported John Kerry; then when Howard Dean came into the picture, Dean became my number one choice. Now that John Kerry is the candidate, he gets my full support and loyalty. He's a very smart man, and will be good for our country.

:thumbsup: :hi:

[bigwillq]

59. Dean supporter for Kerry

They make a good team. Kerry should out Dean in his cabinent.