Why Would Super Delegates From WY or MS or Any Other Red State Support Clinton At The Convention?

[KittyWampus]

And it's not just red states.

Why would any super delegate from any red or PURPLE state or any state that Clinton has said doesn't matter... WHY WOULD THEY SUPPORT HER AT THE CONVENTION?

Clinton already lost several weeks ago.

She expects to not only go into the Convention down 100-150 Pledged Delegates but to expect Super Delegates from states she's ignored and insulted to support her?

She is a fool.

[monmouth]

1. Time for those party elders to step in....n/t

[kid a]

2. I agree.

[dogman]

5. Yes, and let Dean know to shape up or ship out.

He has proven what a poor choice he would have been for President.

[KittyWampus]

7. He's the one who is giving resources to the red & purple states. Damn Hillary supporters are stupid

[dogman]

9. While he manages the disenfranchisement of FL and MI.

w only disenfranchised FL in 2000.

[KittyWampus]

16. funny, Clinton crony Terry McAuliffe presided over DNC and enforced the same rules

you really do NOT know what you are talking about.

[dogman]

21. Who did he disenfranchise?

McAuliffe would not have made a good President either by the way. Proof that while accusing me of ignorance, you change the subject, that's dishonest.

[DearAbby]

57. Dean had nothing to do with their decision

to up their primaries against party rules. Place the blame where it belongs, not at the feet of Howard Dean. And dont forget, the candidates agreed to this before a single vote was cast. You cant go changing the rules.

[dogman]

59. No, you can disenfranchise voters, because rules are more important. That is wrong.

The candidates agreed not to campaign. Dean did not resolve the problem. I don't care who or why, disenfranchisement is the greater wrong.

[DearAbby]

67. Excuse me Dogman...no one has been disenfranchised

Florida and Michigan voters have their constitutional right to vote in the General election. (yes, I know this is florida we are talking about) These are Party primaries. They chose to violate the rules, there are repercussions for doing so. They were warned and they ignored the warnings. All Candidates agreed to these terms.

I don't recall Hillary last year crying about the disenfranchisement of Florida and Michigan voters then. Oh but now when it could make a difference in her totals, she is the voter's advocate.

Rules are rules.

I hope they figure out a way to settle the matter. But Dean is not responsible for what happened. I respect his decision, and not backing down...Otherwise we would have primaries for the next election, directly following the November election.

[Gore1FL]

18. Really?

Should he have stopped Harold Ickes of the Clinton campaign from voting to punish FL and MI?

You read that right? Harold Ickes of the Clinton campagn voted to puish FL and MI for their early primaries by stripping the of all delegates.

Harold Ickes--you know of the Clinton campaign...


Chuck Todd of MSNBC mentioned this on this Saturday's Tim Russert show.

Evidently Chuck Todd was there when Harold Ickes (now of the Clinton campaign) voted to punish FL and MI!

I guess he as for it, before he was against it.

[dogman]

22. Is Ickes the candidate?

Or is he just another adviser who has his own opinions as a Party leader? I really don't care what he was for or against, I am against the disenfranchisement of voters and the long term damage to the Democratic Party this issue is building. The new 50 states - 2 strategy?

[Gore1FL]

29. was powers the candidate?

You know, I don't like the rules either, but that doesn't make them retroactively change.

For the Hillary camp to claim that oer half the states don;t count, but the ones who violated rules somehow do is sort of a weak argument.

[dogman]

32. Are apples, oranges?

Dean was in charge.It was his problem to resolve. He failed. Hillary is not saying not to count the votes of the voters of any states. Did the individual voters violate any rules? Disenfranchisement is wrong.

[Gore1FL]

35. The rulkes committee made the vote

ean was in charge.It was his problem to resolve.

Should dean use nudemocratic means to subvert power in the DNC?

Seems like a rather strange argument.

Hillary is not saying not to count the votes of the voters of any states.

So? It isn't her call either.

Did the individual voters violate any rules?

No. they simply voted in a beauty contest.

Disenfranchisement is wrong.

Then complain to Hillary campaign strategist, Harold Ickes and the rest of the Rules committee.

[dogman]

39. And Dean is the Chairman.

Was he overruled? Did he solve the problem? Dean should use the skills he claimed, when he ran for President, to resolve the problem.
Snip>"Hillary is not saying not to count the votes of the voters of any states.

So? It isn't her call either."<snip

So? I don't know, you brought it up.

Snip>"For the Hillary camp to claim that oer half the states don;t count, but the ones who violated rules somehow do is sort of a weak argument."<snip

[Gore1FL]

42. So you believe the DNC should have a unitary executive...

Are you really trying to put forth an argument of One person control of the DNC?

Really?

[dogman]

45. Is that what I wrote?

No. I wrote that it is his job to save this Party. That would take the same set of skills needed to be President. He seems lacking right now in his DNC job. Leadership is not unitary executive, that is actually a failure of leadership too.

[Gore1FL]

50. Yuo seem to think Dean should have full power

To do anything, even if it is outside thscope of his powers.

So, in effect, yes that is what you wrote.

He's done more than save the party, he resurrected it. To blame him for the rules committee, poor decisions in FL and MI is like blaming a cop or the judge in a traffic court for getting a speeding ticket.

[dogman]

51. Cops and Judges are enforcers, not leaders.

So Dean should not get credit for the 50 state strategy? That belongs to the committees? A governor who sgned on to a 25 MPH limit on a super highway would be to blame for speeding tickets IMO. Then again ,speeding is voluntary, having your votes ignored is not.

[Gore1FL]

56. The point is

neither the judge or the cop are responsible for the ticket. The driver is. If the speed limit is stupid, it is still not an excuse to break it without expecting consequences.

To fix the law, one must address those who put the law in place. Crying to or screaming at the judge or the cop will not remedy the problem.

[dogman]

58. So voting can be wrong?

Some democracy there.

[Gore1FL]

65. the current totals are sure wrong

not beig onthe ballot in MI kills that as a valid election. Not campaigning in either state sort of kills both as valid.

How many people did;t bother because they knew it wouldn't count? Should they be disenfranchised?

Once again we can get into pissing match about this for an extended time. You aren't going to resolve it and neither can I.

There is no way to deal with this situation to make everybody happy.

Damn the stupid rules, and damn the FL and Mi legislature for breaking them in spite of their stupidity.

[roguevalley]

63. Dean is the reason my state has a chance to go blue this election.

Dean is a god in my eyes. Period.

[SKKY]

3. Because most Super Delegates feel they've been given that title...

...to exercise their best judgment, not necessarily the will of the people. It kinda sucks, but it is what it is.

[dogman]

4. Because superdelegates do not always represent the whole state.

The same as the pledged delegates are split, most likely the superdelegates will split. Clinton has not lost until Obama wins. You are a fool because you don't understand the system, she does.

[KittyWampus]

6. The Clinton's DLC didn't invest in any infrastructure in those states & Hillary insults/ignore them

and you think they'll support her?

Can anyone possibly be THAT foolish?

[dogman]

12. She has won delegates in most states.

The popular vote of the USA supports her.

[KittyWampus]

17. She is losing the popular vote too. You are terribly uninformed.

[dogman]

31. I'll show you mine, if you show me yours.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html
Snip>Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)* - - 13,581,328 13,614,081<snip

[Gore1FL]

37. same link

but using the contests that count:

Popular Vote Total - - Obama 13,005,114 Clinton 12,414,786

Of course this leaves out the caucuses of Iowa, Nevada, Washington & Maine, and does not include a rational muliplier for Caucus voters.

Even with those numbers, OBama is 590328 ahead.

[dogman]

40. I believe in counting the votes.

But I would like to live in a Democracy also.

[Gore1FL]

43. i do too

but it is important to have valid elections in which to count them.

[dogman]

46. Then what is the voter's recourse?

If the SC or the DNC says their vote does not count, it is wrong. The voter has no control or choice, except to follow their state law. Instead of calling Hillary names, people should be calling for a solution to disenfranchisement. If votes were not counted in NY or LA, for Obama, that is wrong also. I want a transparent and fair system more than any one candidate.

[Gore1FL]

49. To vote again?

To vote out the people responsible for FL moving up their primary in am annaer that made it invald?

The first thing is to actually blame the right people.

[dogman]

52. So you are responsible for the Iraq War?

No, as you say blame the right people, but is that accomplished by denying voters?

[Gore1FL]

55. No

But if you address the wrong with the \wrong person (ie Dean over the rules committee or the MI and FL legslatures) then you are trying to cure the wrong ailment.

It is like breaking an arm, and trying to mend it by splinting a leg.

No one is arguing the arm isn't broken, but applying first aid to the leg is not the approach to deal with it.

[dogman]

60. Problem solving is a skill.

Dean is severely lacking here.

[Gore1FL]

64. We can get into a pissing match about this all night if you want

well at least for a little while longer, because my eyes are getting sore.

But why do so?

If you want to blame dean, blame dean. I really don't care who you blame, honestly. He isn't leaving until his term in is up in 2009.

[greyghost]

10. AMEN

[Zachstar]

8. You make a great point.

Clinton is burning bridges and scorching the earth. She will not be able to convince the supers that she is the one that can bring in the red states (You cant win on blue states alone Ala 2004) And they will likely flock to Obama if they have not done so by then.

[tokenlib]

11. Payoffs???n/t

[VotesForWomen]

13. why should dems care what a 0 electoral vote state thinks? yeah, think about it. nt

[unblock]

15. are you suggesting we limit the primaries to states who voted blue in the previous election??

i hope i'm really not understanding your point....

[KittyWampus]

19. Clinton sole rationale f/continuing the Primary is the possibility a majority of Super Delegates

will support her.

So why should a Super Delegate from Wyoming or any of the states she has ignored and insulted VOTE FOR HER?

You and she have just said they don't matter. They are nothing to the Democratic party.

And by the way, that is how Bill Clinton and Terry McAuliffe treated these fellow Democrats up until we were able to get Howard Dean innto the DNC.

[1776Forever]

14. I agree. Stressful!! I just had to agree with a HRC person HRC used to be a Repub!!!

Most people know Hillary Rodham was president of Wellesley College's Young Republicans in college. They didn't believe me and called me a lier 3 times! I am getting darn tired of it!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17388372

:silly:

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

23. does that include Wyoming and the California votes that trickled in this past week?

[writes3000]

25. No, But It Includes the Bogus Votes from Michigan and Florida. And That's Ridiculous.

[Gore1FL]

30. AND

It doesn't include even the raw caucus voters, much less a reasonable modifier for each caucus goer that represents the states voters who couldn't make it to those contests because of time and situation constraints.

[MadBadger]

24. Link please.

[KittyWampus]

26. Lulamay is a busy little bee posting that crap in lots of threads.

[MadBadger]

28. I know...I'm almost positive she's including Florida and Michigan.

[writes3000]

27. Anyone counting Michigan in their vote total is being intellectually dishonest.

[dogman]

34. Right, they were only voting, who needs that shit?

We didn't need votes from FL in 2000, or votes from Ohio in 2004, did we?

[Gore1FL]

33. real clear politics show an Obama lead of

13,005,114 to 12,414,786

And that does not include all Caucus votes, or a reasonable multiplier for caucus voters to rationally match their numbers to primary voters.


590,328 behind doesn't equate to leading--especially when Iowa, Nevada, Washington & Maine do not even show in the vote totals in any way, or any of the caucus votes are not modified to reflect the Dem voters they represent.

[dogman]

36. And Gore did not win FL.

You need a new name if you believe in the disenfranchisement of voters.

[Gore1FL]

38. Gore did win in FL

The state was awarded to Bush by the SCOTUS.

The DNC is not awarding delegates to Obama.


talk about apples and oranges!

[dogman]

41. No, the voters were disenfranchised.

That's oranges for oranges. I don't care who threw out their votes, it's wrong.

[Gore1FL]

44. And the electors were awarded

If Obama got all the MI and FL delegates you would have an analogy.

He didn't, and therefore you don't.

[dogman]

47. The analogy is the disenfranchisement of voters.

No matter the outcome, disenfranchisement is the true crime here.

[Gore1FL]

48. It doesn't make it a good analogy.

[dogman]

53. Look up the definition of analogy.

"a correspondence or partial similarity" as in votes not counted.
"a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects" as in stolen votes.

[Gore1FL]

54. look up good

[dogman]

61. Look up precise and perfect.

[Gore1FL]

66. A webster pissing match...let's not

You have points,but the analogy sucked. Stick with the points.

1> The rules are stupid.

2> The FL and MI legislatures voted to break the rules

3> Those who suffered the most were the voters.

4> Using the totals as they stand disenfranchises the voters who didn;t voter because they knew it wasn't going to count.

5> Neither candidate campaigned in either state.

6> Obama wasnot on the ballot in MI

7> There is no solution that is ging to happily remedy this situation to everyone's satisfaction.

8> You and I arguing about it all night and into next week will do little more than waste hard drive space and band width as neither one of us are empowered to fix it.

[Medusa]

62. She's not a Fool. She's Desperate. Power-Hungry

just to name a couple of terms I can think of for her.

[KittyWampus]

68. kick

[gulliver]

69. The SDs would vote for Clinton if they think she has the best chance to win.

That's it. There would be a clear headed evaluation of the candidates chances in the GE, some wheeling and dealing, followed by a decision. There might even be several rounds of that. This idea that some SD from some state is going to feel that Hillary "ignored or insulted" their state is tenuous at best.

[KittyWampus]

70. kick