Why criticize Kerry? The last time we took a Dem at face value

[ulysses]

more than a few of us regretted it.

Is that fair to Kerry? Quite possibly not. Tell it to the DLC.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. The difference is that the last Dem you took at face value was a founding

father of the DLC. I view Kerry as being more at the effect of the DLC. Stylistically, the other Dem was quite a seducer...not so with Kerry.

Either way...based on the IMF memo today combined with that hapless moron going on TV last night and getting his ass kissed by partisans today..we are fucked...I personally will vote for less fucked on the ballot


FUCKED_______
LESSFUCKED____X____

[ulysses]

5. fair enough

I'll vote "less fucked" too. He just has a great deal to prove.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. Compared to last night?

Sorry Uly...couldn't resist.

[ulysses]

12. no, compared to what I expect of a Democratic candidate for President.

Sorry, Teena, but *I* would be an improvement in the White House over Bush. Shrubulus isn't the benchmark.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. Run honey..I'll vote for you in spite of what I have said about

3'rd party spoilers in close elections.

[ulysses]

18. LOL!

Somewhere, there are a couple of heads exploding at the very thought. :D Besides, I'd run as a Dem if I ever did run, and Cheryl has sworn me to nothing higher than school board or county-level office.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. Just do some other improvement around the house..she can't say no

[Exgeneral]

62. I'm adding your "less fucked " graphic to my sig line

You are totally happening.
:)

[freetobegay]

2. Trust no one & verify all!

eom

[Mr_Lefty]

3. What do you regret?

His personal life or professional performance as President?

[ulysses]

6. I couldn't care less about his personal affairs,

as long as everything is consentual. Welfare "reform" was the last straw.

[Amerpie]

4. Good point

I'm amused at the freak out factor from some of the leftover Johnson-Democrat types around here whenever people point out Kerry's "opportunity for improvement" areas.

And for that other guy you alluded to... Well, just say I dig your signature!

[ulysses]

17. thanks

Good to see the Granny D appreciated. :)

[quinnox]

7. Free country

and after Kerry becomes president, there will be plenty of time to criticize him some more.

Kerry won't be perfect unfortunately.

[ulysses]

14. true enough.

I intend to do so.

Perfection in the political realm doesn't exist, and I don't expect it of Kerry. Neither do I plan to simply accept what we're given in another Dem campaign and/or administration.

[blm]

8. So, go after one of the few members of the DLC who maintained

the most liberal voting record even after you enthusiastically supported the candidacy of another member who helped pull the party right throughout his tenure with the DLC.

Consistency isn't all it's cracked up to be. Too boring.

[ulysses]

10. expected you to show up.

:D

I wouldn't describe my support for Dean as "enthusiastic" - I ended up voting for Kucinich in the GA primary - so perhaps you're thinking of someone else. Even so, given their stances on gays and the IWR, I'd have still taken my chances with Dean...

AND criticized him on his weak points had he been the nominee. I no more expected him to be perfect than I expect Kerry to be.

[blm]

15. I voted for Kucinich, too, in SC.

And I will enthusiastically vote for Kerry in November. Surprisingly, Kerry's lifetime liberal rating is higher than even Kucinich's.

I have NO problem, whatsoever, with either man, even though there are aspects of each that could be picked apart. I took heat for supporting Kucinich back when he was called a conservative Dem and a DINO. I'll take heat now from those who accuse Kerry.

I trust my judgement.

[ulysses]

19. maybe you weren't here

when I was getting my head taken off for defending DK after his anti-choice votes came to light. I trust my judgment too. Kerry's better by a long shot than what we might have wound up with this year, but he doesn't get a free pass.

[JohnKleeb]

20. hey you both voted Kucinich, good for you two

blm is a big fan of DK, been a fan of DK longer than Ive been alive even. Worked on his first campaign. So you two both supported the campaigns of "more electable" guys and voted for IMO the best man in the race. No one deserves a free pass. BTW good for you for defending his not so pretty votes, he was fair at least, he was for helping those mothers at least unlike the true anti choice republicans.

[ulysses]

21. I defended the man, not the votes, John.

As Armstead put it at the time, with tongue in cheek, "Kucinich voted against abortion rights, so let's bomb Iraq".

[JohnKleeb]

23. I understand that

but I respect the votes because hes not a budget cutter. Not votes I liked but he wasnt like the republicans who would cut aid to those mothers. THanks for voting for DK btw, I wish I could have but I am too young.

[ulysses]

24. fair enough.

I'm just glad to see that Dennis is still in and having an effect.

[JohnKleeb]

25. of course

I get mighty upset when people go after him.

[blm]

43. I mean back when Kucinich was running for Congress.

My friends gave me grief because he was prolife and against flagburning, but I assured them there was a liberal heart and soul in Kucinich and that he'd make a great congressman.

[JohnKleeb]

46. you guys dont need to fight over Kucinich

share an honorable man :D. I still have that DK autograph. Good for both of you.

[blm]

49. We're not fighting.

I was just clarifying that I trusted DK back when when it was difficult for those who didn't know his personal values or how they could learn to trust the man's heart. It wasn't so clear back in 92.

Besides, uly and I never fight. We tough each other out....respectfully. Big difference. ;)

[JohnKleeb]

50. lol ok sorry I am really in a ditzy mood

You know him better than anyone else here, DK that is. Seriously tho, I think he could have won as the nominee, he brings people together IMO.

[ulysses]

51. we never fight? I'm not trying hard enough!

;-) Thanks for the clarification on DK. :hi:

[mitchum]

11. Don't know about that "we"...

I've never taken a Democrat at face value. Pragmatism trumps naivete (but maybe I'm just a cynic):)

[ulysses]

13. take the "we" for what it's worth.

If you didn't take Clinton at face value then good for you. I was 23 at that election and, yes, fairly naive.

[Cocoa]

22. I couldn't stand Clinton in '92

I held my nose when I voted for him.

But I go back and forth. I guess it depends on whether I'm in the mood to compare him to Kucinich or to the actual alternative. Compare him to Dennis, Clinton looks like Hitler, compare him to Bush, he looks like Gandhi.

[DemCam]

26. We got the best President of my lifetime.

[no name no slogan]

32. Which is a sad commentary on the quality of our presidents (n/t)

[JohnKleeb]

37. well he could be my age lol

Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II. I like you am no fan of Clinton though, I believe people know my reasons: NAFTA (which is one of my disagreements with Kerry), DOMA, welfare "reform", a support of the death penalty in many cases, Kosovo which I realize puts me in small minority. Plus I am a self admitted tax and spend dem and old democrat.

[no name no slogan]

57. S'okay John. You're in good company

The only "good" Democratic president in my lifetime has been Carter, and I was only seven when he was elected.

I was born during Nixon's first term (1969), but for some odd reason my earliest memories are of Walter Cronkite on TV talking about Vietnam, and a family discussion one summer afternoon up at the lake about what a jackass that Gerry Ford was for pardoning that goddamn crook Nixon (to quote my Republican grandfather).

Like the saying goes, Clinton was the best Republican president we'd had since Eisenhower.

[JohnKleeb]

58. if we had things my way

you would have been an RFK baby :). not that I didnt like your homestate man, Mr. Gene McCarthy but RFK rocked :). Carter wasnt a great president but what he does possess is a great heart. Clinton was an excellent speaker and politican but as far as policy goes, he was too moderate for me. Gimme a progressive dem any day.

[kodi]

28. keep your eye on the prize. kerry is a means to, not the end in itself

yeap, Dem's have disappointed me too, but the GOP, god bless their pointy little heads, they never do.

the Dem's are our home team, love 'em or not, they play in the hometown of our heart's values. every other party represents an away game to me.

but fair to Kerry? who knows?

we can bitch about how he is going to shape the world we live in but i don't think anyone familiar with the process by which that occurs realistically thinks that anyone could do much more.

"death by increments" perhaps shall be our collective tombstone?

or maybe, each of these politicians are just stepping stones to get the people to where we want to go. its a long process, and while i don't want bad things to happen, i will take the imperfect that furthers my cause for the perfect that yields up nothing.

and if you think i have not been hitting Kerry upside the head on du, i have most certainly done so at times.

it's gonna' be a Long, Long March. I don't expect to be there when our people reach the Promised Land and i don't know if even just reaching for it is point, but i do know that Kerry moves us forward in the direction i think we should go.

my man was Al Gore. a man i thought understands us in ways as a people as important as Gore Vidal and Noam Chomsky and Robert Kennedy and Jerry Garcia knew us.

but truth be told, Kerry makes me more than a little uncomfortable, no doubt about it.

is it just me, or there is no sense of jazz in him?

[ulysses]

61. true enough, I suppose.

Almost missed you here, Frank.

i will take the imperfect that furthers my cause for the perfect that yields up nothing.

As long as it furthers, not stalls or backslides, then yes. And I still think the perfect/imperfect thing leads to far more misunderstanding than understanding. There is no perfect politician. That was never the point, and isn't the point now.

[GalleryGod]

29. Self-serving Thread Alert!

:puke:

[ulysses]

30. yup.

First bastard to start a thread in the interest of making a point, I am.

[JVS]

31. How crass

:-)

[ulysses]

38. isn't it?

Why I can't be happy with letting someone else do the thinking for me I'll never know...;-)

[sangh0]

33. The last time people took a 3rd party candidate at face value

more than a few of them came to regret it later too.

But I doubt I'll see you defending those of us who criticize Nader.

[ulysses]

36. so they did.

Then again, you've never seen me post wondering why anyone is criticizing the guy.

And hey, I'll defend your ability to criticize Nader until the cows come home. You're fun to play with. :D

[sangh0]

39. And you'll never see me wondering why anyone is criticizing Kerry

because I know that there's a lot of Freepers and fringe leftists out there

:evilgrin:

[JohnKleeb]

40. hey I am a fringe lefty

ok I also happen to be yellow dog.

[sangh0]

41. Don't worry, you'll grow out of it

(jes' kidding. AFAIC, you're one cool dude)

[JohnKleeb]

44. hey I can be both

and thanks. I am a rarity eh, I am the kinda person that wouldnt have liked Truman dropping the bomb but would have ended up supporting him for his standing up to Taft-Hartley.

[sangh0]

52. That's why you're so cool

You can handle more than one thought, even if they work against each other.

[JohnKleeb]

56. its tough but I manage

[ulysses]

42. It's your obsessive predictability that makes you such fun.

:D

[JohnKleeb]

45. lol

You should see my political compass results, people said DK is unelectable, if I was even running, I would drag the whole party to the left. I am a yellow dog because of what hte party has done for my family in the past, cant get enough of that man Roosevelt lol.

[ulysses]

47. just to be clear,

I was referring to sangh*, not you, John. :)

[JohnKleeb]

48. lol its ok

man I am such a fool, I changed my original plans and now I am gonna have to stay up late night tonight to watch 4 episodes of BoB, ehh thats not bad really lol.

[sangh0]

53. obsessive predictability??? From a Naderite?

Wow, I'm impressed

:loveya:

[ulysses]

54. my point

:D

[sangh0]

55. Quite perceptive of you uly

:-)

[IrateCitizen]

34. You might be interested in this, uly...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x501091

Take a look at Armstead's proposal at the bottom of the thread.

[ulysses]

35. I read that a bit ago.

Would they do it? It'd make all the damn sense in the world. We can always hope...

[John_H]

59. I think we should all take Nader at face value instead.

Megalomaniac, liar, hypocrite. Nader doesn't belong in this Kerry bashing thread? Well, he doesn't belong in the presidential race either.

[ulysses]

60. somewhere, Pavlov is grinning.

Hey, talk about what you like. Just let me know if it's ever the original point.

[sangha]

63. Randi Rhodes says

When someone shows you or tells you they're a liar....believe them!!