Question for caucus attenders.

[pnwmom]

A couple friends of mine who attended different caucuses were telling me about instances of bullying and intimidation that they witnessed, all involving Obama supporters ridiculing, interrupting, and insulting Clinton supporters. One of these friends is an Obama backer, the other a Clinton backer. They both have been going to caucuses for decades, and had never seen anything like this before.

Did any of you witness this kind of thing at your caucuses? How can caucuses be a fair way of choosing a candidate, when instead of having a secret ballot, you actually have to choose up sides? What if a person finds him or herself attending a caucus alongside a spouse, other relative, employer, pastor, or someone else that the person doesn't want to offend?

[blogslut]

1. nope. no bullying by either side

But then, I was in West Texas. We were just thrilled that there were so many Democrats.

[Horse with no Name]

2. It happened.

There are instances of it all over. However...the precinct chairs are all denying it and saying that they went "swimmingly" (of course who would want to ADMIT that they ran a failed process?)...that the people's accounts of the processes are nothing but anecdotal--just big doses of "sore losermen"...etc etc...
Google "Texas caucus irregularities"...you will get 40,000+ accounts of how these went wrong.
I know that my town was split on racial lines and there was bullying.
I know the town next to me (same county)my friend over there told me they showed up and nobody knew how to do it so they were sent home.
I know the county next to me, the Obama people picked up the packet and then never showed back up at the caucus and they didn't have one.
But the people who ran them say they went swimmingly.

[woolldog]

33. Yeah, I heard the same thing about Wyoming.

The vote was split along racial lines there too. :rofl:

hey I have an idea. Maybe the split along racial lines says more about your community than about the candidates or the caucus system? Seems like you live in a backward hick town?

[ScottS]

36. This is what I saw in Wyoming

There was a big guy, Hillary supporter, up front, shouting HILLARY! HILLARY! HILLARY! HILLARY! extremely loud, through almost the entire caucus. Every time an Obama supporter lifted a sign, he just went back into it, and this big group of older women up front got up and did it with him. Even during the time when each candidate had someone speak. One said "Yes We Can!", and you hear that guy go "NO YOU CAN'T!". It was a bit of a turn off for the undecided, to see such immaturity displayed by the Hillary camp.

[woolldog]

38. lol

I wish I lived in a caucus state. Sounds like fun.

Has anybody thought about why certain states have caucuses and some don't? It seems like rural areas/states tend to have caucuses, probably becuase people lived so far away from each other at one point in time and it didn't make sense to travel long distances vote in secret and go home, it's almost anti-social to do that, people wanted some meaningful interaction with each other.

[Hoof Hearted]

46. "Seems like you live in a backward hick town?" Is that the smell of Unity, or Hope in your post?

:hurts:

[thevoiceofreason]

3. In Harris County, most were fine (except for the lines)

Everyone was well educated (as a rule). That speaks volumes in praise of Jerry Birnberg, our County Chair, and Martha Cottingham, our primary director, both of whom arranged countless training sessions, all of which were heavily attended.

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. If you want to see bullying and intimidation....

I was with a group of people who went to my caucuses to stand for Kucinich. In the past, it did not matter if the person was still in the race; on the first division, you could stand for Mickey Mouse if you wanted to, and if Mickey Mouse was a "viable candidate" (ie at least 15% of the people in attendance stood for him) then that was that. Our hope was to get at least a few Kucinich delegates to the state convention and influence the state platform.

One would think we were trying to stand for Ralph Nader, given the amount of bullying and intimidation we faced even before the first tally. In the end, we simply walked out. One of neighbors was there with us, his first caucus: the kid was on the verge of tears which is why we walked out.

It was very, very ugly.

Edited: We were flat out not allowed to stand for Kucinich; text changed to reflect this.

[redqueen]

6. Wow... that's bad.

I didn't get to caucus this time... as a Kucinich supporter last time around I only got the condescension and 'knowing looks' from others. Still... ugh.

[VolcanoJen]

5. A few of my blogger friends in Texas say their caucuses were pretty chill.

And the one person I know who attended that huge caucus in Boise, Idaho (largest one-site caucus ever!) said it was as orderly and fun as can be.

There were all kinds of reports out after the Nevada caucuses that alleged Clinton supporters had engaged in rules-changing, intimidation, and bullying, especially in the casino caucuses.

You'll have it both ways, I guess. Passions are high, caucuses can be (but don't need to be) intense, and there is very much at stake. I doubt it can be a tidy process every single time in every single instance.

Next time we go through this, some kind Iowa people ought to volunteer to go to the caucus states well beforehand and show them how to have a meaningful and democratic caucus. I always get a little misty-eyed watching the Iowa Caucuses on C-SPAN... it looks like democracy to me, the way they do it.

[IDemo]

8. I was at the Boise caucus and can vouch for your friend

Incredible enthusiasm all around, no intimidation seen. When Boise Mayor Dave Bieter stood up to speak for Obama, the first words he spoke were: "Ladies and gentlemen, isn't it good to be among friends?"

You have to have lived here for the past 25 years to fully appreciate that remark and the cheer that followed.

[pnwmom]

31. We used to have caucuses because of transportation and communication

issues. We're beyond that now. As far as I'm concerned, caucuses are an undemocratic relic that have outlived their usefulness. We actually tried to get rid of them here in Washington, with the voters strongly supporting a referendum to replace them with primaries. Unfortunately, the Democrats in charge of the party decided to retain the caucus system anyway (and continue to allocate all the delegates through the system), so now we have a meaningless primary as well as a the caucuses.

[donheld]

7. There was no bullying at all at our caucus

NONE

[Debi]

9. At our caucus the Clinton people complained that the Edwards people where

over-counting - so everyone had to line up and count-off. Guess what? Edwards supporters know how to count! :bounce:

[Growler]

10. Nope.

I caucused in WA state, and didn't see any signs of bullying or intimidation. Everyone was very polite, even though there were a lot of strong opinions. My precinct went overwhelmingly for Obama, but we all listening carefully to what the Clinton people said. The whole experience was energetic, orderly, and polite, I thought.

[Radical Activist]

11. I saw nothing like that in Iowa

If it were happening on a wide scale there would be documented evidence. Multiple reporters would have seen it and written stories about it. Election officials would have made official complaints or police reports. Instead all I've seen is rumors. That makes me think that if this is happening its on a very small scale.

[antigop]

12. No one answered your question: "How can caucuses be a fair way of choosing a candidate, when instead

of having a secret ballot, you actually have to choose up sides?"

Gee, I wonder why no one answered this question.

[Growler]

14. I caucused, and I think it's a stupid process

I caucused in WA state, and I think it's an undemocratic process that disenfranchises a lot of people who cannot attend for one reason or another. I'm an Obama supporter, and I realize he's won nearly all the caucuses... but I don't like them and wish we'd get rid of them here in WA.

[antigop]

16. I 100% agree. It is absolutely ridiculous. n/t

[pnwmom]

18. I didn't go because of the process. I've attended before, and merely

found the process way too time-consuming and tedious. This was the first year I've heard of intimidation, but I can see how the format lends itself to that.

[Radical Activist]

15. I can understand that some people who might vote for racial reasons

wouldn't want to be forced to explain to their friends and neighbors that the only reason they didn't vote for Obama is that he's black. Maybe that's one reason Obama does better in caucus states. Its easier to be a closet racist in the secrecy of the polling booth.

[pnwmom]

20. What if someone preferred Obama, but was intimidated into voting for

Clinton because his boss was there, trying to get him into Clinton's corner?

By your reasoning, we shouldn't have a secret ballot for the general election either. I strongly disagree.

[pnwmom]

19. Thank you for pointing that out. n/t

[high density]

13. No, our caucus was very civilized

It just took forever to get all the new Democrats registered!

During the count the Clinton side asked for and was granted without question a second count of the votes. Nothing abnormal went on except for the record turnout.

I think it can be a fair way to choose a candidate, but it assumes people have a few hours to deal with the process. I like the idea of a primary much better.

[crispini]

17. We had 400 at my convention.

I put a lot of thought and effort to planning because knew I would have a high turnout. Didn't know it would be that many! I had a PA system and I had people from both sides involved at every step of the way. The only hold up was we ran out of sign up sheets but we were told previously that paper would be OK so that's what we did. I think any time a system gets stressed so terrifically, people will be stressed as well. However, everything that I am hearing says that most of them went fairly and well.

The whole question of secret ballot is a different point. It does mean you have to have a certain amount of political courage. It's not for everyone, but in Texas we have a mixed system so we get the best of both worlds. Anyway, shouldn't we be willing to "stand up and be counted" for our candidates? Anyway it seems that the quality of face to face discourse has, by and large, been much more high quality than what I've seen here online.

[pnwmom]

22. No, I don't think assertiveness and willingness to "stand up and be counted"

should be a requirement for voting. It's great for the people who can deal with that kind of pressure, but what about the others? What about the guy who knows his boss strongly wants him to vote for Clinton? What about the intimidated wife who wants to vote for Clinton, but is afraid her husband will be mad at her? What about the socially anxious person who can't stand up in a room full of people and would rather not vote at all. Are all those people to be denied a vote? Yes, under the caucus system.

[crispini]

29. So we have both in Texas, primary and caucus.

Gets you an idea of both kinds of folks.

[no name no slogan]

32. A primary and/or caucus is not the same as the general election, though

The purpose of the party primary or caucus is to attend to party businesss-- i.e., to endorse candidates to run in the general election. By its very nature it is a party activity, and NOT the same thing as choosing somebody for governor/senator/president/whatever.

Because it's a party function, you could argue that a caucus would be a better choice-- it brings out people who are dedicated to building the party and developing the platform, and have studied the issues, and therefore have a vested interest in choosing the best candidate for the general election.

[antigop]

39. you have pointed out one (of many) reasons the caucuses need to go.

They are ridiculous.

[snappyturtle]

35. I'm in Texas too...very enjoyable experience. People were very

enthusiastic and happy...happy voices...polite voices...and patient. I think the sign up sheets work well.

[zulchzulu]

21. What does "bullying" comprise of?

You go to a caucus. You shoot the crap with neighbors for a little bit. A couple announcements... then people go to their corner where others supporting their candidate go to. You count heads. If you have less than 15%, other people walk up and ask if you want to join their corner. You can leave. You can go wherever you want.

This mealy-mouthed horseshit that people are "bulleyed" is utter nonsense. Unless you just crawled from under a goddamn rock, you should be able to do whatever you want or say whatever is on your mind.

I've seen several caucuses and it the same thing, as described above.

The whiners are usually the losers.

[pnwmom]

25. One of the "whiners," as I mentioned, was an Obama backer who was

describing the poor behavior of other Obama supporters. So you're not making much sense.

Just because you personally didn't witness any verbal bullying doesn't mean that it didn't take place at other caucuses. And maybe it took place at your caucus -- right under your nose. I gave you examples, but I'll repeat myself . My friend saw an Obama guy repeatedly interrupting the Clinton speaker during her assigned speaking time in order to ridicule her. If you think that sort of behavior is acceptable, that you should be able to "say whatever is on your mind," even when it is someone else's turn to speak, then you're part of the problem.

[zulchzulu]

37. Ok...so the guy was an asshole... you win!

I've been to four caucuses and yes, there are a couple twits in the crowd like there are monkeys in a zoo...but you get over it. You find the same types of jerks in a mall every 20 feet.

If I was there and some guy kept interrupting, I'd tell him to shut the hell up. If others didn't tell him to shut up, then they were idiots.

[pnwmom]

50. Good for you, you're more assertive. But assertiveness shouldn't be a

requirement for participating in the voting process. That's one of the reasons caucuses should be replaced with primaries.

[Avalux]

23. Not at mine. We agreed at the onset to be civil. There were about 300 people in attendance.

There were Obama and Clinton people there and none of us wanted to make the process any more difficult than it was going to be.

The ONLY intimidation that occurred was that the Election Judge would not let us in the building until everyone had voted. We were outside and it was freezing; lots of elderly people who might have to stand out there for a couple of hours. I demanded he show me in writing where it states we need to stand outside. He couldn't do it, there was talk about calling the sherriff and about 5 minutes later he let us in.

[pnwmom]

27. Why was he trying to keep everyone outside? That makes no sense at all. n/t

[Avalux]

30. He said he was told to lock the doors at 7 sharp; voters inside, caucus goers outside.

He said we weren't allowed in the building until everyone in line had cast a vote; they didn't finish until 9 pm.

When I challenged him, he let us in. He was an idiot.

[WyLoochka]

24. Great crowd of people

at our caucus. Not even a hint of a problem between any supporters. We had secret ballots too, although the majority of people were all stickered up with who they were supporting anyway.

[jpak]

26. I caucused in Maine in a snowstorm and saw no intimidation by either side

Maine, however, is a civilized country where we practice True 1776 American Democracy....

[otohara]

28. I Was Picked To Talk to Uncommitted Voter

and it was completely frustrating, so I gave up fairly quickly. I think he left without voting and I was surprised to see a handful of uncommitted were at the County convention on Saturday.

[backscatter712]

34. No. No bullying at mine.

There were huge crowds, and people were very passionate, but everyone respected each other's votes, and gave each other a fair chance to speak for their candidates.

[rainbow4321]

40. No bullying but no backing down, either

From my Texas precinct:

There were 120 in my precinct, final totals were 80 Obama, 40 Clinton.

The lady in charge initially tried to give EACH group 8 delegates til my group got loud, louder, loudest with " WE have MORE people, HOW do you give us each the same # of delegates". Respectfully, but firmly.

Saw a bunch of scrambling and quiet conversations at the front of the room, then 3 guys hovered over a calculator for like 15 minutes, THEN they changed the delegate count to where Obama group got 12, I think, and Clinton got 7 or so (I was in a pain medicine fog from a root canal that day so things are a little fuzzy from that night numberwise). There is some special state ordered formula for deciding the delegate number, I think.

The biggest problem we had was that the county repukes (majority party of the county) got to decide what room we Dems met in initially and how many machines each party got for the primary votes. Most of the Dem anger was at the repukes and not each other. 120 people in a regular size classroom = not happy campers especially since the very small number of local repukes who were there just for a meeting were in a HUGE ass cafeteria using only 1 lunch table..that and the fact it took Dem voters 2 hours of waiting to do their primary vote cuz DESPITE knowing about record Dem turnouts, we only got TWO machines while the repukes got FOUR (which stood not used while Dems waited to get to their machines).

Our group finally got permission to move to a more open space on the other side of the cafeteria but that took 2 hours to get done...

Overall, given the crowded, very warm classroom, only crummy water fountains for drinks (soda machines not working), and a 2 hour delay in starting the caucus, I would say that the local Dems did themselves and the party proud that night.

The in-charge county repukes shoved THREE precincts into one school so that didn't help matters, either, crowd-wise.

[pnwmom]

53. 120 adults stuffed into one classroom? Don't they have fire laws in Texas?

Seriously, I would file an official complaint with the Fire Marshall, if there is such a person in your town.

What an ordeal. Glad you survived.

[ClayZ]

41. Our caucus was very civil!

Thirty four for Obama and 7 for Clinton in our precinct. The Clinton folks were most of the senior citizens of the group. Four others, of the elders were for Obama.

Everyone was polite.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Yes I saw Hillary supporters trying to bully Obama supporters

[HopeforChange]

43. I was bullied and they tried to kick me out and prevent me from signing up to be an Obama delegate

It was traumatic and hateful and I never want to go through this again. I feel our caucus was highjacked.

[pnwmom]

52. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Experiences like yours poison

the atmosphere and discourage participation -- which is already hard enough, since it requires so much time.

[totodeinhere]

44. I caucused in Elko, NV and...

it wouldn't have been necessary to bully Clinton supporters because there were hardly any of them there anyway. It was Obama all the way in Elko. I am so proud of my home town.

[RBInMaine]

45. HEAVIEST caucus turnout in the HISTORY of my state, and

there were no such problems reported. I attended mine, and people were happy as hell about how things went. Remember, you always get these he said/she said things. You may even get a FEW isolated instances of something that someone could have construed or misconstrued as "intimidation." (That can be a very elastic term.) But come on, anything like that would be very very rare if at all. We have had caucuses for decade up decade in this country, and only now are people suddenly bitching about it, at least to any significant degree. Especially people like Hillary who can't seem to motivate her people to go to them. Hmmmm, what does that tell you about whose base is more motivated??? Also, we have annual town meetings all over the country where voting is done in the wide open, and MANY other forums with open voting formats. Somehow we seem to survive.

[Liberal In Texas]

47. No problems in my precinct that I saw. Actually, everyone was quite cordial.

Many looked tired after a day of work and nobody enjoyed standing around waiting for the poll to close officially at 7:15 or having to queue up after that. There were all ages and races present and no unpleasantness that I could see.

[RichardRay]

48. No problem in Teton County, WY

We were all so happy to see over 1,000 D's show up to participate that people were enthusiastically applauding just about everything including the motion to accept the minutes from the last meeting. The way you could tell the Obama supporters from Clinton supporters was that the people applauding without jumping to their feet were from the other camp.

Teton County went 80% Obama, but I don't think there was any itimidation involved, just enthusiasm.

[Emit]

49. No bullying at mine in NV

civil discourse and a lot of happy faces on both sides. We had out of town folks from both Obama and Clinton campaigns volunteering as witnesses, and sometimes, we had to coral them into a seating area against the wall because they were not allowed to participate if they were not registered voters. But, everyone was very civil and upbeat. Some were more zealous and obviously avid supporters -- the Clinton camps were loud and cheerful and the Obama camp had their moments of this, too. It was great.

I watched some of these videos on the Texas caucus, here, if you are interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6HfDRrmO8k&feature=dir

[AX10]

51. Like they would ever admit it.

:eyes:

[DearAbby]

54. Nope...no bullying, in fact it was exciting and fun

to see all the other faces and feel the excitement. People actually getting out and supporting their candidates. But mostly supporting the party.