Dartmouth: Dean says credibility main issue of campaign now.

[madfloridian]

http://www.projo.com/ap/ne/1081995674.htm

SNIP..."The man who spoke of "jobs, jobs, jobs" during his meteoric rise, then fall, in the race for the Democratic Party nomination said former presidential counterterrorism adviser Richard Clarke changed his mind.

"The biggest issue in this campaign has become the credibility of the United States," he said......"

SNIP..."Dean said President Bush and Vice President Cheney also apparently didn't tell everything they knew about Iraq's nuclear capability before taking the country to war.

"People won't tolerate being misled by the president," Dean said. "What we have for foreign policy is based on false information given to the American people."

"The president has put us in more danger than we were before," the former Vermont governor said. Furthermore, he said, the country faces "the loss of our moral leadership."

Keep talking, Dr. Dean.

[AmyStrange]

1. Dean is the man...

and thanx to you MadFloridian for keeping us informed of his appearances and speeches and other things,

d

[Oreegone]

2. God Bless Doctor Dean

What a guy, keep talking, keep speaking....tell it like it is.....

[goclark]

3. Wear Um Out Dr. Dean1 n/t

[wasichu]

4. Is Dean aware that Kerry has the same foreign policy?

oh well, I hope Dean gets VP so maybe he can smack some sense into Kerry.

[sandnsea]

7. Are Deaniacs aware?

Dean doesn't support pulling out of Iraq either. His and Kerry's foreign policy are exactly the same. Except Kerry actually has the experience, diplomatic skills and trust of foreign leaders to move quickly in getting a change in Iraq and other countries.

[madfloridian]

8. One believes in pre-emptive war or invasion, one does not.

You are correct that Dean does not/did not think we should pull out of Iraq and leave instability. However, he does not think this policy of pre-emption is right.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0417-07.htm

SNIP..."Bush: It's Not Just His Doctrine That's Wrong
by Howard Dean

(Note: After reading a recent article that called into question my opposition to the Bush Doctrine of preemptive war, I wanted to state my position clearly to set the record straight. I appreciate that the editors of Common Dreams have given me this opportunity.)

When Congress approved the President’s authorization to go to war in Iraq – no matter how well-intentioned – it was giving the green light to the President to set his Doctrine of preemptive war in motion. It now appears that Iraq was just the first step. Already, the Bush Administration is apparently eyeing Syria and Iran as the next countries on its target list. The Bush Doctrine must be stopped here.

Many in Congress who voted for this resolution should have known better. On September 23, 2002, Al Gore cautioned in his speech in San Francisco that “if the Congress approves the Iraq resolution just proposed by the Administration it is simultaneously creating the precedent for preemptive action anywhere, anytime this or any future president so decides.” And that is why it was such a big mistake for Congress to allow the president to set this dangerous precedent.

[maxwall]

13. Precisely... n/t

[sangh0]

16. Dean supports pre-emption also

Which is why he proposed giving Saddam a 60-day deadline followed by a unilateral, pre-emptive invasion if Iraq.

But madfloridian already knows this. We had a thread about this the other day, and madfloridian agreed that Dean would support a pre-emptive invasion, but just not this one.

[madfloridian]

17. NOT pre-emptive war and invasion. He was being hypothetical.

I am not going to go there with you anymore. I think you can see the difference. I really truly do.

[sangh0]

18. OK, let's review

Dean said

1) "There is no question, Saddam is a threat"
2) That we should issue a 60 day deadline and if Saddam did not disarm, then we should invade

That's pre-emption.

NOT pre-emptive war and invasion....

Umm, there's no such thing as a pre-emptive war without an invasion.

[madfloridian]

20. We have covered this enough.

No more debate with you. I think you know the difference.

[sangh0]

25. I'm not surprised you won't defend you fallacious claim

that Dean opposes pre-emptive war. Too bad you couldn't do the honorable thing and admit you made a mistake.

[madfloridian]

28. No mistake. I am right.

Sorry.

[blm]

15. Except Biden-Lugar allowed pre-emption, too, so there is a disingenuous

tone to Dean's pointing fingers at those in Congress who voted for IWR, since Dean said at the time that he would have voted for Biden-Lugar.

If IWR had been implemented as written, then there would have been no need for pre-emptive action because a fully implemented weapons inspection that was called for in IWR would have found no need.

[sangh0]

19. And Dean advocated pre-emptive war after a 60-day deadline

and madfloridian knows this. Now, she's trying to argue that Dean's was calling for pre-emptive war without an invasion, which is an impossibility.

[sandnsea]

23. They didn't pass that resolution

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/resolution.cfm

This is all the September 2002 resolution proposed by Bush said. They didn't pass that. This is just more manipulation of the facts by Dean. Just like the fact that he continues to deny that he supported unilateral military action to disarm Iraq in 2002.

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This joint resolution may be cited as the "Further Resolution on Iraq".

SECTION 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

The President is authorized to use all means that he determines to be appropriate, including force, in order to enforce the United Nations Security Council Resolutions referenced above, defend the national security interests of the United States against the threat posed by Iraq, and restore international peace and security in the region.

[jpgray]

32. Dean does not have a problem with preemptive unilateral war in general

He stated many times he sees instances where it would be necessary, under some qualifiers and conditions. He *does* have a problem with this particular preemptive unilateral war because those conditions were not met, but he is not against the practice outright.

12. Isn't it irrelevant at this point?

whether Dean has foreign policy experience, since he's not running for President anymore.
Gee do you think "Deaniacs" are aware of this?
No, we've just had our heads in the sandnsea all along, right?
What is the point of bringing up Dean's foreign policy experience at this juncture anyway?
And what of foreign policy experience. All those Yahoos in power right now have plenty of foreign policy experience.
Like that helps us.

[sandnsea]

24. Tell wasichu

I wouldn't have posted a word if he/she hadn't posted that bullshit that Kerry and Bush's foreign policy are the same. I ignore the vast majority of the Dean lies around here, but not when it goes that far.

[Nazgul35]

14. Why'd this become about Deaniacs?

Did every Dean supporter make the statement you are responding too?

Get a new song sandnsea....try responding to the poster and not straw man attacks

[sandnsea]

22. Post #4

That's what I responded to.

[Nazgul35]

26. ummm.....

Duh....

I know that...reread my post.

My point, which you failed to respond to was.....

A single poster (#4 above) posted that Dean (that's D-E-A-N) was right....and he should "kick Kerry's ass)...

You chose to respond in your tag line to your post...

Are Deaniacs aware....

My point was that you chose to attack Dean supporters for a statement made by a single individual about Dean and Kerry....

Why?

:shrug:

Was I not clear enough?

[sandnsea]

29. Oh puhleeze

Half the posts on this board are still adoration of Dean and bashing Kerry by Dean supporters. I ignore it 99% of the time, but once in a while it just goes too far.

[Nazgul35]

30. hahahahaha.........

Is everyone getting this!

So here is the way the argument goes....

1) A single poster post a response about Dean and Kerry....
2) Sandnsea responds with a response as if all Dean supporters posted the offending post...
3) I question why...
4) It is ignored....
5) the response is that half the posts are about Dean....

note that the post I orginally responded to was number 7!

So sandnsea uses the shit storm created by the original post number 7, designed to piss off all Dean supporters, as justification for post number 7.....to quote:

Half the posts on this board are still adoration of Dean and bashing Kerry by Dean supporters. I ignore it 99% of the time, but once in a while it just goes too far.

almost Vulcan like in its logic....

Maybe if you spent less time throwing handgrenades into rooms and than pissing on the bodies you wouldn't spend so much time getting straffed by your perceived enemies....

Many people spend an awful amount of time projecting their fears onto others....consider how much the repugs over react to anything done by the Dems with virtrole and violence.....

If you don't want to engage in this kind of nonsense, don't throw gasoline on the fire.....simple!

Something tells me you will not stop however, I think you like the attention....

[NoPasaran]

21. Are Kerryistas aware?

That the overwhelming majority of Deaniacs are supporting Kerry for President just as Dean is, and that there is nothing to be gained from baiting us in this fashion?

[LuminousX]

27. I see why I haven't come back yet

I thought this BS would be behind us by now.

Let's beat up on Dean. Let's beat up on Kerry. Give me a break - there is only one person who we need to beat up on and that is Bush.

[paulk]

5. I think he's right

Once Bush's credibility is destroyed, the whole house of cards comes down. It's the chink in Bush's "Big Lie" armor.

[slinkerwink]

6. Dean rocks!

[WI_DEM]

9. He is keeping the heat on Bush

which will aid Kerry.

[DaveSZ]

10. "Dean doesn't support pulling out of Iraq either."

I saw a speech by Nader and he said the same.

[madfloridian]

11. The post was about Bush credibility.

But you are right that Dean does not support pulling out. At least he did not at one time.

[madfloridian]

31. Hilarious! Dean's Dartmouth comment on Safire's article.

The one where he speculates about Dean being Surgeon General. Got this from the summary at Kos.

SNIP..."Question about Safire's column, imagining him as Kerry's surgeon general. "I don't read Safire. Life is hard enough without making yourself mad on purpose."

Not interested in being surgeon general."

[Zinfandel]

33. Bush has arms forces spead way too thin, when Bush steals the

election, plan on a draft, included will be all the republican college clowns... by June 2005

[Desertrose]

34. Dean dropped out- and now supports Kerry right?....nuff said

Irrelevant......

[madfloridian]

35. What is irrelevant? The truth?

Just don't know exactly what you meant? Do you mean that if Dean is no longer running that what he says is irrelevant?

Or do you mean that the truth only counts if Kerry says it?

[Debi]

36. Don't want to ruffle any feathers...any more that is

But all this 'Dean is for preemptive strikes' garbage comes from an interview on Face the Nation in September of 2002 correct? Didn't the interviewer take Dean down a looooong hypothetical road on when he 'may' agree to preemptive strike under certain hypothetical circumstances and Dean (to basically get off the line of questioning) agreed? It's not hard to get the transcripts - in fact I had to time and time again....right after Kerry/Gephardt staff members called Dean supporters to tell them that Dean would've gone into Iraq just like Bush did.

Of course Kerry is the presumptive nominee, and yes I'll vote for him, but let's allow Governor Dean the dignity he deserves. He was not supportive of the Iraq war, he did not support the Iraq War Resolution and he shouldn't be lumped in with Kerry now.

[madfloridian]

37. Debi, thanks! I was looking for it, and the date helped me find it.

Totally hypothetical! I am going to post separately.

[Debi]

38. I'll look for the thread!!

:hi:

[madfloridian]

39. It is up.

Thanks.