Hillary is going to have a tough time winning in the general election without the black vote

[NJSecularist]

I have extolled the virtues of Hillary's electability before, even though I am an Obama supporter. Her terrific performances in the primaries of Ohio, Florida and most likely Pennsylvania make her a great choice for the nomination since those are 3 vitally important states in the general election.

But if she can't make in-roads with the black vote, that electability argument goes right out the window. The general election is an entirely different animal. The Rethugs will win in the more rural areas of Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida that Hillary laid claim to in each of those primaries. She does have the ability to court some of the votes in that area, but the most important counties for the Democrats in the general elections are the more urban counties. I have news for all of the Hillary supporters.

Democrats don't win Ohio without Cuyahoga County.
Democrats don't win Florida without Broward County.
Democrats don't win Pennsylvania without Philadelphia County.
Democrats don't win New Jersey without Essex County.
Democrats don't win Missouri without St. Louis.

And these vile race-baiting tactics by the Clinton campaign and their surrogates do nothing to help Hillary bridge the gap among African Americans if she is nominated. They may turn out for her, but they'll vote for her at a 75% rate, with diminished turnout, and that is death to our chances in the general election. The way the Clinton campaign has engaged in race baiting is a disgrace, and it needs to stop RIGHT NOW.

[Obamanaut]

1. I don't think she will be running in the general election. nt

[rndmprsn]

2. ding ding ding!

you get the prize =]

[C_U_L8R]

3. They're trying to win PA at all costs

truly at ALL costs.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

30. won't Obama get many delegates if she wins in PA?

how many are we talking about here?

[pbca]

4. It's not just the black vote she's losing

If Hillary gets the nomination it will be a McCain landslide.

[Yurovsky]

23. agree 100% ....

and if Democrats stay home, the Senate & House could go GOP as well.

Hillary needs to step aside NOW. For the good of the party, but more importantly for the good of the country.

[pbca]

25. Truthfully I think she's finished doing damage

I think it's over. To the extent she was going to divide the party - she has but if it was her goal to hurt Obama so he'd lost the GE and she could run in 2012 (I think this was her plan) I think she overreached. She won't be the party nominee and I think her future in national politics is over. (After the Ferrarro thing I don't even know if she can hold onto her Senate seat).

[MadHound]

5. Yep, she's turning off more and more segments of voters.

Blacks, anti-war left, independents, young and first time voters. She already had the anti-war and independents going against her coming into the race, and logic would say that if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. But she's still in there, shoveling away. Frankly I think it's her pride and ego now, she realizes that she's going to lose the nomination, so she figures if she can't win the presidency, then she'll do her best to insure no other Democrat wins the presidency. Sad and pathetic really, and her tactics could wind up tearing the party apart.

[Bullet1987]

6. I agree...but she has run an incredibly short-sighted campaign

all around though. It's not to say Blacks won't vote for her...or she'll get 10% in the General as she is now, but there will not be nearly the same level of turnout amoung Black voters as there could have been. The Clintons were very popular in Black circles and I could've seen ENORMOUS Black support for her in the GE had her campaign not degraded to race-baiting.

And you can't count on the Hispanic vote either, because they vote in typically red states anyway. Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nevada, etc.

[Fredda Weinberg]

7. The GOP has no trouble winning general elections w/o African Americans

You don't know race baiting ... surrounded in the street and mocked for being different. So please, take your guilt trip elsewhere.

[NJSecularist]

8. We are different than the GOP

We can't win without the black vote, and if you think otherwise, you don't know about general election politics.

[Fredda Weinberg]

15. I know we can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory

I'm no different now than I was growing up - just learned a lot more. I remember, for example, when the Democratic Party stood firmly against integration ... so before you begin your lecture, look up some facts.

There are long term re-alignment trends, and it's easy to split the coalition while wrapping yourself in victimhood. I remember '68 - do you?

[NJSecularist]

19. Yes, I do.

You remember we lost that election, don't you?

Do you have a point?

[Fredda Weinberg]

21. Well, we could start by being civil to each other right here, right now

And the public debate will cool off after silly season ends. As far as needing African Americans for anything, there's no reason to respond emotionally. The sad facts remain as they are ... American Jews can be written off as well, so what?

[NJSecularist]

22. How do you propose putting a winning coalition together to win this election?

[Fredda Weinberg]

24. I used to enjoy nominating conventions. You never knew how they'd

turn out ... but in the process, we gained consensus. That's why '68 was so jarring ... it wasn't the first I'd seen, but I'd not seen enough to put it in context.

So this is mild by comparison and certainly capable of healing. My candidate at this point is less important than supporting the process and all those who dare stand for office.

I ran for office in a national organization a long time ago. I remember the agony of defeat much more than the thrill of victory. Service was even less gratifying.

So let the process be painful to weed out those who only care about themselves. Let's keep a sense of humor during silly season and advocate as best we can.

How's that for a guiding set of principles?

[Exilednight]

9. Nice way to dismiss an entire voting block. I'll be sure to circulate this to all my.....

African-American friends. Hillary supporter said that they can win without them and their vote isn't needed or wanted.

Maybe you better rethink your statement.

[Fredda Weinberg]

12. Facts are facts. Take your soft bigotry elsewhere n/t

[NJSecularist]

13. Take your bigotry elsewhere.

[Fredda Weinberg]

17. I can't afford it. I grew up in an urban slum and choose to live in majority

minority neighborhoods. Still have an African American congress critter. Do you?

[Exilednight]

28. Here's fact - without the AA vote in PA Kerry would have lost PA in the last election......

Gore could have won Florida if a few hundred African-Americans showed up to vote in 2000.

[Benhurst]

31. No, he would have won if the votes had been counted. More than

enough African Americans and others showed up to vote for him.

Unfortunately, our "leaders" chose after the all was said and done to ignore the theft and the fascist (and I use the word advisedly) disenfranchisement of poor and African American voters, only to have the process repeated in Ohio four years later. The heart rendering pictures of thousands of people standing out in the rain to vote had no effect on our "leaders" whatsoever.

And here we go again, entering yet another presidential election with absolutely nothing having been done by our "leaders," including both Clinton and Obama, to prevent another stolen election.

[Fredda Weinberg]

43. if a few hundred African-Americans showed up to vote? talk about

soft bigotry. I have lived in South Florida and conditions there ... well, summer w/o AC is no fun, but normal for the kids I taught. The Democratic Party in the state is part of the problem. Deal w/it.

[northzax]

10. race baiting is whatever the Obama campaign says it is

it's all about how you listen to what people say.

it's not race baiting to use the one-drop rule? anyone who calls Obama black should remember he has a white mother and a black father. that makes him black, somehow, and not just as white? heck, his father left the family, and he was raised by his White mother, he went to Harvard, for the love of god, and yet somehow what matters is his absentee black father's DNA?

so why is it, given that reality, that there is an electoral advantage for Mr. Obama to deemphasize the white and emphasize the black part? how come we never hear about his mother? no pictures of them together in ads? why is that, you figure?

[Bullet1987]

14. Who created the One-Drop Rule again?

Besides, Obama calls HIMSELF Black/African-American so that is what he should be considered. Live with it!

[northzax]

20. and therefore, he wouldn't be where he is

without being black/African American. so what's the problem?

just because the one-drop rule was created, does that mean we should keep using it? isn't it all a little silly at this point?

[Exilednight]

29. So you would it find it totally acceptable if.....

your boss called you into the office and told you that you are where you are in the company because of your skin color and nothing else?

I just want to make sure I have this correct, because this is exactly what Geraldine did.

[northzax]

33. Geraldine Ferrarro is Barack Obama's boss?

really? or is she just some random person sniping at him? different standard, right

oh, and you should look into the concept of the glass escalator. I have had people say this about me (and frankly, at the time, it was in many ways true) if you are a young, white male teaching in inner city schools, you get promoted out of the classroom very quickly, faster than others, even in majority black run school systems. I was offered a job as a principal at the age of 28 after five years. I was offered a high paying curriculum specialist job I was unqualified for at 24, two years in. there were people who had been teaching for ten years, fifteen years, waiting for those opportunities. So yes, I know what it is like to have something offered to me simply based on the color of my skin. and yes, I have heard the whispers in the hallway.

have you?

[Exilednight]

35. I've heard the whispers, and you know what - the people whispering don't last very long around me...

I don't accept racist working with me and creating a hostile work environment. Turning your head and pretending it doesn't exist is just as bad as having the words come out of your mouth.

It's like the old saying goes, if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.

[Bullet1987]

34. No, he's where he is because he's a damn great candidate

By your talk, you'd think Sharpton and Braun were shoe-ins for the nomination in 2004. It's bullshit logic and patently false.

[northzax]

42. ah, so being black has nothing to do with who Barack Obama is?

kinda irrelevant then, ain't it? it has nothing to do with his experiences, how he sees the world, what he sees when he looks in the mirror? please

and I wouldn't recommend that people keep including Al Sharpton, the huckster, and Carol Mosely-Braun, the sloppy accountant in this conversation. you want people to think of them eveytime they look at Obama? keep making the connection.

[Exilednight]

44. Allow me to use another persons reference......

If Michael Jordan had the same talent, but was white, would he still be great?

If Tiger Woods had the same talent, but was white, would he still be great?

Let's be honest, they got to where they were because they have tremendous talent, and nothing else.

[northzax]

46. true, but would they have become global icons

if they were white? in fact, there is an easy comparison to be made. Roger Federer. as great on the tennis court as either Jordan or Woods in their millieu. more people, globally, play tennis than golf. He's even a nice guy, charming, funny, speaks great english (let's be honest, that matters) has the same marketing agent as Tiger, and signed with Nike, same as Jordan and Tiger. when's the last time you saw him in a Nike commercial? on a billboard? in a magazine? cynical, I know. But you see more advertising featuring the Williams sisters, long past their primes, than the best player to ever pick up a tennis racket. go figure.

is that racist? you can achieve the same shocking level of performance on the court, and not make the same money off it. Tiger Woods revoluntionized golf, and would have done so anyway, but would he have brought all the new audiences to the game, and all the money, if he looked like Phil Mickelson? Jordan was the best basketball player of his time, perhaps all time, but he made his real money off the court, the country was ready for a new, non-controversial black superstar, and the Nike/Jordan/NBA axis was all to happy to provide (And it certainly helped that he was the greatest of his day, no question) so why, when Roger Federer is doing the same thing, in a global sport, do we not hear his name mentioned in the same breath? think about it.

[Exilednight]

47. I see Federer on TV all the time, I would also argue that players like Agassi and....

McEnroe (?MacEnroe? not sure I spelled it right) stole the light with their charisma and personality. How long has it been since Johnny Mac picked up a racket and he's in all sorts of commercials.

If Federer has a problem with getting off court gigs, then he has one of two problems. He either has a bad PR agent, or is not very charismatic.

[northzax]

48. he has the same agent as Tiger

that's the point. Tiger isn't outgoing, or much of a public figure at all.

but you must be right, there is no difference between the marketing of white atheletes and black ones. none. or in the market for them. none.

[Exilednight]

50. In the past week I've seen commercials with ....

Johnny Mac pushing breakfast cereal.
Mike Golick, who was an unknown lineman in the NFL, pushing nutri-system.
Manning pushing Direct TV.

[Fredda Weinberg]

18. I remember reading the families opposed the marriage. I faced that

kind of pressure once ... honestly, I don't want this in the White House. The family obviously hasn't resolved their own issues.

The Clintons know and accept the public cost - I don't see Obama having a thick enough hide for this.

But we've seen worse and survived. This too shall pass and I look forward to our organizing efforts paying off better in the future.

[GirlinContempt]

51. What the fuck?

What planet do you live on?

Guess what: If you're half, or even a quarter black, and you APPEAR black to others, that is how you grow up. You grow up as a black kid. People don't stop and ask you if you're half black, a quarter black, what your ancestry is. You are judged as black, and become part of that community.

No stranger walking down the street cares about your family tree.

My sisters boyfriend is half white european, half black Bahamian. He identifies as black, because that's how he appears. That's how he grew up. One of two black kids in his school. One of a tiny handful of blacks in his neighbourhood. Everyone who looks at him identifies him as black and always has. That is reality. No one gives a shit that his mother was white. He has brown skin, he grew up with brown skin, and all the white blood in the family didn't lighten his skin and change his experience.

This is ridiculous.

[NorthernSpy]

26. You know what, Fredda Weinberg?

I've been reading up on the election of 1984.


If you do this to Barack, and if you do this to the political home that blacks have in the Democratic Party, it will become clear to you that it isn't 1984 anymore.



Ferraro stepped in one pile. There are others.

[book_worm]

40. But believe it or not the White vote usually goes for the GOP candidate

When a Democrat wins it's usually thanks to African-American voters and turnout.

[JVS]

45. Who are we going to replace African Americans with? I nominate white Evangelicals!

They seem pretty pissed with McCain. I hope you like having our new buddies in the party!

[scheming daemons]

11. Hillary is going to have a tough time because SHE WON'T BE THE NOMINEE...

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. If ( a HUGE if) she gets the nomination, she will lose anyway.

She will follow the DLC template and concentrate on big blue states, making the the entire election hinge on one or two swing states, and as we've seen in the past two elections, that's how you LOSE.

[damndude]

27. she's going to have a tough time.........

because the she called the media out as being sexist and every sense they got scared and took a step back, she has taken that opportunity to turn her campaign negative in the most divisive ways by inserting the race issue, insulting the importance of smaller states, threatening lawsuits in texas, highlighting the qualifications of the other parties candidate over that of her own party member and on and on and on. she is fast coming onto the ceiling on the ceiling that she is going to hit, not out of discrimination but of simply a joining of party insiders, political pundit/commentators, and public repudiation that 'we are fed up with your form of campaigning'.
we as democrats don't have the stomach for one of our own doing to another of out own what she has been committing in this race.
rightly, we should be sharpening our claws for the republican onslaught.
the little cartoon of her her in the apron trying to claim "no fair, i'm just a girl" as she is drawing blood with the most brutal weapons makes all the statement about her character and conduct.

[AlertLurker]

32. If Obama is gone, HRC will get the black vote.

The only reason that she can't make further inroads into the AA voting bloack is that she is running against a charismatic AA candidate. Do you honestly believe that the AA vote will turn out for McSame?

AFAIAC, it comes down to to two basics:

1] Blacks WILL vote for HRC vs. McSame
2] Southern Whites WILL NOT vote for Obama vs. Anyone. Ever.

Do you really believe that AAs are voting Obama in record numbers and not voting for Clinton because he is such a "transformational candidate?" If so, why did so may support Clinton before Obama became a candidate?

The Southern USA is the most racist place I have ever been. The AA community is the most marginalised minority in the USA, especially in the South. If anyone believes that an AA can win a GE in the Southern USA, I believe that he or she is seriously deluded. The naked hatred for AAs in the South must be seen to be believed.

[grantcart]

36. I wonder if she is going to have to start worrying about her Senate seat

[Romulox]

37. Can Obama win without Labor? nt

[mtnsnake]

38. Just another Obamawhiner who thinks they can speak for all Black people & insult them like that

Since when do you speak for all Black people? What an insult to Black Democrats that you think they would all abandon the Party if Hillary gets the nomination. How condescending that you think they'd rather have Republicans in the WH again if Barack doesn't win the nomination.

[NJSecularist]

49. She'll win the black vote

But the turnout will be very low due to her campaign and her surrogates actively trying to disenfranchise and race bait African Americans.

[book_worm]

39. It's not that she won't win the black vote it's that turnout might be down drastically if she's

the nominee and they need high turnout numbers to win in November among African-Americans.

[workinclasszero]

41. Hillary doesn't give a shit..she'll just come back in 2012

Destroying Obama is the main aim of Hillary and Bill Clinton.

Its their party, after all!:puke: