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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:53 AM
Original message
Geraldine Ferraro is scared to death . . .
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 10:06 AM by EffieBlack
Much of what happens in this nation's politics is affected by race. However, race is only mentioned, discussed, analyzed within the context of black candidates and black voters. Therein lies the problem.

For example: this country has elected 43 white presidents. Until now, it was not even considered a remote possibility that a black person could be elected president, i.e., you HAD to be white in order to even be considered for the presidency, i.e., being white was a distinctive advantage for any presidential candidate.

That is a fact. But it never came up in past presidential campaigns. Politicians did not run around doing interviews proclaiming that George W. Bush wouldn't be where he was unless he was white or insisting that he should consider himself "lucky" to be white. George W. Bush and his predecessors were never defined in terms of race nor were their campaigns, successes, and failures analyzed within a racial framework. They have been treated as "people" who are not confined by, defined by or advantaged by their race.

Now here comes Barack Obama. From the minute he stuck his big toe into the ring, his race was the topic of discussion, analysis and polling. Is he black enough? Will white voters vote for him? Is he too black? Will black voters vote for him? etc., etc.

And now that he has demonstrated that white and black voters will vote for him, we are now being told that his being black is an ADVANTAGE - i.e., being white is a DISADVANTAGE. Only an ignorant observer or a blatant racist would ever believe that suddenly, after 200+ years of black people being effectively excluded from the political process, the fact that ONE BLACK MAN is actually winning primaries means that he is winning because he is black.

There are many reasons that people win primaries, none of which has to do with race. And there are many reasons that black voters vote for candidates, most of which have nothing to do with race. Otherwise, how else to explain why black voters did not flock to support the candidacies of Alan Keyes, Al Sharpton, Doug Wilder and Carol Moseley-Braun?

In fact, truth be told, it is WHITE voters who have consistently voted in blocs along racial lines. Black voters vote for white candidates all the time, in large numbers, even when black candidates are running. On the other hand, white voters have always voted in large numbers AGAINST black candidates. This is the first election cycle where we have seen a shift in this dynamic.

So it is galling to hear people like Ferraro claim that Barack Obama is where he is because he's black - not because there is no truth in it but because white candidates are not viewed through the same lens. If his being black is a defining characteristic of who he is and why he is winning, then being white is and always has been a defining characteristic of white candidates, yet no one has bothered to mention it.

This attitude is all too typical and revealing of a mindset among some white people who have enjoyed the privilege that their white skin confers, without question and without protest. Yet the minute that it appears that this entitlement is no longer exclusive - that some of the obstacles that have held blacks back and guaranteed white privilege are being torn down and white people will actually have more competetition from qualified black people - some white people scream bloody murder about "reverse discrimination," Obama wouldn't be where he is if he weren't black," etc.

Most blacks - including me - who have benefitted from affirmative action are used to this dynamic. We know full well that we are completely qualified to be where we are - often more qualified than the white people who take it as a given that they should be here, too - yet are consistently faced with this snide, smug, and arrogant questioning of our right to be here and accusations that "you're only here because you're black." In reality, we know that we would have been here A LONG TIME AGO if we WEREN'T black.

Does anyone really believe that Obama is the first qualified, brilliant, inspirational, politically-skilled black person to come along in American history? Of course he's not. But until very recently, no matter how qualified, how brilliant, how inspirational, how politically-skilled a black person was, there was no way on earth that he could EVER get to where Obama is - while the George W. Bushes of the world just marched right in and pulled up a seat, fully confident in THEIR right to be there. The fact that Obama is where he is has nothing to do with his being black. It has everything to do with the fact that Americans have taken baby steps toward removing some of the obstacles that have kept people like Obama from taking a seat alongside the mob of white people of varying (and often most meager) talents and skills who think they have every right to do anything they want to in life.

Ferraro's comments reveal a deep-seated resentment, entitlement and fear that this room no longer has a "RESERVED FOR WHITES ONLY" sign on it and that she and all of the other mediocre white folks who took it as their due that they would ALWAYS have an advantage over any black person are now operating on a different, more (but still not completely) level playing field.

Maybe she's done us all a service. It's a message and an attitude that people need to see, know and understand.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ferraro isnt scared, she's irrelevant. She failed 23 years ago
Now's she's a bitter old Hillraiser.
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Forrest Greene Donating Member (946 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
158. And She Wouldn't Be Where She Is
...if she weren't mobbed up.


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Connonym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #158
214. AND female
and in Clinton's case female AND a Clinton. When we see an election with the first black man and the first woman candidates why should we presume that Obama is there because he's black unless we also assume that Hillary's there because she's a woman AND she's named Clinton? The thing that I find most ironic is that I don't think either one of them was the best candidate. What Hillary has done through Ferraro is say that Obama is only here because he's black. Hillary herself has said that Obama isn't qualified (he only has the speech after all). So what Hillary is trying to say is even MORE obscene than simple racism. She's saying that a black man who isn't qualified is there by virtue of affirmative action or the equivalent. But at the same time she's not only denying the fact that her gender makes her just as much a potential affirmative action case as Obama's blackness. Furthermore, she's totally riding Bill's coattails and counting on the name getting her places. So let's just say for the sake of argument that Obama being black is canceled out as a handicap (meant in the gambling sense) by Hillary being female. Both are equally unique in their position. But Obama got there on his education, his personality and through great hardship. Hillary got there through education, a much lesser reputation for personality and and through the hardship of being a female in a male dominated world. But let's not forget that Hillary had one more trick up her sleeve -- Bill. I cannot believe the irony of someone in her position complaining that someone else is getting preferential treatment. This whole fiasco on top of her betrayal of the Democratic party when she declared McCain better qualified than Obama have made me repulsed by her. That lack of party loyalty will make it very difficult for me to vote in November if she is the Democratic candidate.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #214
221. Yes, Connonym.
I think your observations are exactly on target.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #214
248. It was a timely statement...

I don't really know if she is a racist, only she does. But the statement was a political ploy.
She made that statement (IMO) to influence or reenforce the idea to the voters who do vote racially.

It's like a lawyer in court would do. He may make a statement that is objected by the defense
but non the less he still influences all who have heard it. The seed has been planted and that is all MR REDNECK
has to hear to reenforce or justify his bigotry and reflect it in their vote.
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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
190. It amazes me how often the first reply gets it right. Anything beyond is spin. n/t
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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
191. It amazes me how often the first reply gets it right. Anything beyond is spin. n/t
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
194. Let's just not go there with the insults
What Geraldine Ferraro said was horrible enough on the face of it. Insulting her isn't helping Senator Obama. As Senator Obama said, what she said was ridiculous. Let's leave it at that.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #194
234. Yes. I agree with the OP, except the conclusion is unwarranted.
Ferraro wants Hillary to win, enough so she is willing to embarrass herself by invoking racism. But I don't think that's enough to assume that she is a white supremacist. I think that she is scared to lose, but not scared of blacks in general.

Barack has great appeal and charisma. He is brilliant and deft in his responses, and apparently a great organizer and strategist. Blackness, (or as Rahssan Roland Kirk would say, Blacknuss) is part of the Gestalt, and cannot be separated out in any meaningful analysis. In that sense, Ferraro's remarks were stupid and desperate, as well as racist.

--IMM
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #234
236. Does anyone ever watch the interview - Ferraro isn't racist and just spoke Demographic truth
the AA population is a large loyal part of the Dem party, and in the primaries can decide the winner in many states if polarized toward one candidate, or against another.

That is why Obama played the race card - and continues to play it against Hillary with Ferraro's rather straight forward comment of how the "Democratic party" can get "enamored" with a concept and push that concept candidate to nomination - citing her own nomination to be VP in 84, and the Obama's success this year.

Obama and his fans are very good at playing the victim when it helps their cause. Getting AA women into the fold was the goal and Obama's race card playing accomplishes that.

After this latest pulling of a multi-day old comment by a Hillary supporter which got no press and was never going to get any press until Obama used it as a race card play, folks should not ask why Hillary voters will no longer consider voting for Obama - to the point of accepting a President McCain. The media sells the Obama spin - "Hillary campaign race card" - and the DU echo chamber gets a thousand threads a day proclaiming it - but it is obviously not true. Just watch the interview and then review Ferraro's life and her actions in support of the AA community - but I guess truth does not matter if you are just trying to smear Hillary.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #236
242. The Democratic Party did not put Obama where he is because of a fad.
Ferraro's situation was much different. She was selected in the hope she would add an attraction to the Dem ticket. It wasn't enough. Obama brought himself up.

Obama's not my first choice by a long shot. But I really don't see much to vote for in Hillary, except that she's not a professed Republican.

You don't think that Hillary's campaign is playing racist? BTW, Ferraro made similar remarks about Jesse Jackson when he ran.

--IMM
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #242
247. Demographic remarks that are truth are now racist?
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Great post
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. people like Obama? Honestly, you don't hear yourself
And please don't lecture women on obstacles.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I'm a woman. I feel completely
comfortable condemning Ferraro's racist remarks, both current and historical. And the OP has the right to say whatever he/she pleases, whatever her/his gender. Don't like it? Tough.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
40. You dare to call Geraldine Ferraro a racist? You may be female
but you don't respect those who stood the slings and arrows. Shame on you and your sons should learn from better examples.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. I'm a white woman who dares to call Geraldine Ferraro a racist.
If the shoe fits...
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
175. With Ferraro it should be "if the sheet fits...." n/t
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 10:31 PM by greguganus
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
179. I think its fairer to say she said remarks which are clearly racist in tone
This is different from saying that she personally is a racist. I think this is an important distinction. She could just have a really bad blind spot here, vice being an honest to goodness racist.
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NMMatt Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #179
208. Except this is not the first time she has said this
So this is clearly her point of view. The moment a black person has success she has resentment based on their race (with Jesse Jackson and now Obama). It certainly is a racist attitude, which makes her racist to some degree or another.

And trying to separate the person from their racist attitudes only serves to enable racist attitudes. There is obviously much more to Ferraro than this race based resentment of hers, however, it is an important and ugly part of who she has presented in public on more than one occassion.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #208
238. the Dems fall in love with a concept point is raised by many - Ferraro has no resentment of
anything or anyone.

Watch the interview - read the transcript.

This lie fest of a thread is disgusting.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #43
237. the shoe does not fit - and a life history proves that fact - Ferraro is no racist
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
48. And you don't respect my g gg grandmother!

She was a slave and SHE tolled without pay so that White women were able to advance in society.

Your little "slings and arrows" don't hold a candle to my ggg grandmother!

She had 10 children and 8 grandchildren and 9 great grandchildren - they grew up to be lawyers and doctors and teachers and made this world a better place!

She washed clothes,cooked, dressed White children and yet there are still a few White women left that refuse to value US as "real women."

I am now donating $100 to the Legal Defense fund for the NAACP
Thank you for inspiring me.

And one more thing, tell all your Geri buddies on this board that I will be working to insure that African American women will continue to have a voice and it will be at the ballot box.

We will be voting for someone that CARES about all women, not just White women. His name is Barack Obama!



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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
106. bless your family. it pains me tremendously to see people use
the race card here. I remember when black people couldn't even SPEND THE FUCKING NIGHT IN MY TOWN because of sun down laws. Geraldine Ferraro remembers it too and doesn't give a damn. She's a disgrace.

Your family history is America.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #106
147. rougevalley ~ I wish America could care like you do
It just made me so angry to hear the "poor little us" tears.

They don't have a clue what real work is and because of women like my ggg grandmother, I have been blessed.

When I think about a real women,Eleanor Roosevelt comes to mind. I recall how she insisted that another WOMEN Marian Anderson be allowed to perform in Washington DC.

Those are the WOMEN that should represent America.

Yes,Eleanor was a real woman who stood up for justice!

Queen Hillary and her puppet Princess Geraldine don't have a clue.

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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #147
189. I grew up a fairly privileged white girl. I remember my father telling
us that all people are equal and he would use Hawaii and and the interracial mixing there as what he saw as an equality utopia so to speak.

I also remember him telling a story of when I was a young child, (around 1960) and our family was either moving into or out of Florida for some reason. My mother made sandwiches for all the moving men and invited them into the house. One of the white guys said to my father: "You don't let n*** into your house!", to which my father reminded him that indeed it was HIS house and he would do what he wanted and of course invited them all in again.

I wanted to punch Joe Scarborough in his fat face for the way he wailed on Michelle Obama for not be proud of her country for her entire life. Does he think the daughter of one of those black moving men should have been "proud" to be an American then? Michele would have been a young girl at that time too. These ignorant asses make me want to spit.

I also remember a dear friend of mine calling me up a couple years ago in tears. She is in the army and was sent to Oklahoma for work. She went into some restaurant by herself (it was a Denny's or something like that) and the woman who had her section REFUSED TO WAIT ON HER! (Did I mention my friend is a black woman?) Another waitress came over and suggested she move to another area when she, (the un-bigot) could wait on her. And this was just a few years ago!

If anyone doesn't know that black people in this country still have a hard times they are just either not paying attention or they don't care or are part of the group that wants to create the hardship.



To suggest that Barack Obama has gotten where he is because of anything other than intelligence, drive, compassion, talent, integrity and fortitude is ignorant.

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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #189
197. I didn't grow up privileged, and I want to thank your father.
It takes a lot of courage to do the right thing. I only have a partial idea of what blacks went through in the South back then. It was bad enough being "poor white trash." Being poor and black was pure hell.

One of my earliest memories when growing up was seeing the 'Whites Only' sign at the neighborhood laundromat, and asking my mother where people washed their clothes that weren't white. I grew up in an age when that Whites Only sign could be displayed out in the open. These days, it is hidden, but there none the less.

I haven't been proud of my country in a long time. I have hope that one day I can honestly say "I am proud of America." If Obama takes the oath of office in January 2009, maybe I will be able to say it.
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Forrest Greene Donating Member (946 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #189
250. One Of The Things I'm Proudest Of My Father
...for was the time, also around 1960, that he was buying a new car. In those days, you made quite a production of that, visiting the dealer numerous times, going through the classic walking-out-to-think-it-over charade, & so forth. One evening I tagged along. Dad did some discussing with the salesman, who was Black, & when we left he said to me, "Now see, that man was as black as the ace of spades, but he treated me decently & politely, & I treated him decently & politely, & that's the way I want you to be, understand?"

Well, I was just seven, & hadn't even noticed, but it stayed with me.

I know, I know, "ace of spades," but it genuinely was not meant in any derogatory sense. In fact, the odd phrase, which I'd never heard before (or since, at least not from my Dad) helped the actual lesson be memorable. Come to think of it, considering the date, I should probably be proud of the car dealership, too.


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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #106
196. I guess I'm living in a 'sundown town' too
I thought I had left the racism behind when I left the South. Boy was I wrong!
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #106
228. I remember "sundown laws" too.
We have so much to live down as a nation.
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #48
192. *big BIG hug*
Your great-great-great-great grandmother knew mine.

My great-grandparents had the "audacity" to send all of their 9 children to college. Eight of them graduated.

My mother was a computer programmer way back when COBOL was the only language. She and a tiny number of other black women excelled at it, and were ostracized by most of their colleagues - white men - who deeply resented them. At a basketball game one night, a man sitting behind us kept screaming in our ears rooting for the other team. My mother had the "audacity" to say something to him about the screaming. I had to listen while this racist pig told her to "shut up and go clean somebody's toilet."

This is the kind of bullshit - the kind of atmosphere - that you and I and Obama have grown up in. Obama had the AUDACITY to think he had an equal right to run for the presidency of the United States - just like any other white elected official. Really, how DARE he?

The reason why I still have hopes for this campaign and this country is that, while most of the white men who worked with my mother wanted to see them fail, a small contigent cheered her and the other woemn on and defiantly befriended them. And the white men sitting around us at that basketball game? They gave that racist freak HELL. For every ugly racist in America, there are 3 or 4 willing to open their minds and hearts. I count on those 3 or 4 people to make a liar out of Geraldine Ferraro.

:hug:
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artemisia1 Donating Member (343 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #192
215. You have my respect. /nt.
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #215
253. thank you.
And likewise! :hi:
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
207. Hell YES!!!
Thank you, goclark. I don't know how anyone could have said that better.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #48
240. K&R for this thread and your post n/t
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #40
49. One hopes that your grasp of logic is more evident in your work than it is here.
It's rather blackly amusing to think of how you go about your job as a CTO if it isn't, though. There's no logical disconnect evident in the idea that Geraldine Ferraro may be a pioneering and important figure for women and yet ALSO a racist. Those are NOT mutually incompatible concepts.

Your ill-mannered pomposity and presumptuous lecturing aren't likely to get you much more of a response than 'piss off'.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. you always know just what to say
:thumbsup:
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #49
76. Man do I enjoy your post....Nail. Head. Great post
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #49
91. Simple & straightforward point
I just wish DU had the ability to recommend comments, rather than just threads.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #49
239. NOT mutually incompatible concepts - but in this case racist is not true
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #40
59. I dare call her a racist. A bitter old racist asshole who needs to STFU and go away.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. She's a throw-back to another time.. and she needs to STFU
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 11:37 AM by SoCalDem
She actually thinks she's "enlightened" and not racist..but it runs so deep, she probably does not even realize it..

She's like many women her age who came from an era where many upper-middle class (and certainly upper class) families had "hired help".. They had drivers who would "drop the ladies off" at the club, and wait patiently outside while the ladies lunched & played cards.. the hired housekeeper/nanny rode the bus every day to care for their kids & cook & iron for them, while her own kids got the short shrift.

These "folks" were the hired help..relegated to the background..out of sight out of mind..

The employers thought they were very enlightened because they PAID them, and thought they paid them well.. By paying them, it also meant that the employers could treat them pretty shabbily and still fell okay about themselves.

It was racism then, and it still is.. I knew people from this class.. They would have "the girl" ( who happened to be a middle aged woman with kids) alter clothes for the kids, do their laundry, entertain them.. One mother of a friend of mine offered to have "her girl" hem my jeans for me.. I declined..and my friend was embarrassed at her mother's words.. This was 1965..Kansas..

Geraldine comes from this mindset.. She's racist, ..and when she says shit like this, she shows her true self..
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. I agree with that--it's both a generational and gender thing.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
97. It's a stupidity thing actually --
I don't think it has anything to do with age. Bigotry knows no boundaries - gender, age, etc...

She needs to be denounced by Hillary (which will never happen) and she needs to re-think her beliefs and attitudes. She is arrogant, elitist, and irrelevant. I hope she buttons it soon.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #59
92. I've begun wondering if she isn't merely hyper-feminist..
... causing her to make stupid, racist statements. She's been on the receiving end of enough sexism throughout her life that her lifetime of exposure to sexism prevents her from recognizing exactly what she's saying in making her point regarding the sexism that she perceives.

She's definitely making racist statements, but is she a racist or a slightly unhinged militant feminist?
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #92
108. neither is mutually exclusive. I prefer to believe that she's smart
enough to know what she's doing and it has a purpose: energize the redneck vote in Pennsylvania for clinton. I hope they feel insulted enough by the cynicism to vote otherwise.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #108
124. Yeah, the theory doesn't hold-up under the least scrutiny
The earlier Jesse Jackson comments pretty much demonstrate the pattern for Ferraro, and the parallel chatter from other Clinton surrogates, along with similar statements from earlier in the campaign, make the case fairly clear that the Clinton campaign is looking for a net gain based on the anti-black racist vote.

They're trying to turn Obama into "the black candidate," to obfuscate his message and broad support.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #92
150. It's a pattern. She said it in 1988.
And I think it's calculated.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #150
252. Yeah, the historical pattern, along with her aggressive resignation statement ...
... that "the Obama campaign is attacking me" ... along with all the other data points associated with the "kitchen sink" tactics, it's difficult for me to see it any other way.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
73. first it sounded racist, then when we learned it might be calculated
While it may not sound blatently racist to you, to many people Ferraro's
statement DID sound very racist.

When we discovered she said the exact same thing about Jessie Jackson in the 80's,
well, then it sounded like a calculated effort on the part of Ferraro and Clinton.

Its amazing that Ferraro's comment (that I find so hateful)is being used to divide us.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #40
88. I don't know if Ferraro is a racist, but she is using race in an unseemly way
and the campaign she is supporting seems to think there is benefit from doing so.

whether they are racist is not knowable, but how they use race is really all one needs to know.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #88
114. If you can say it, you mean it. You are it. I remember a speech
given by rod serling, the twilight zone man. He said that you cannot call yourself a moral man and use the n-word. Using racism in any form precludes you being able to call yourself a moral person. Ferraro knows what she's doing and she means it. Don't be fooled. You can't be a part-time racist. You can't say hate and not mean it. Its in you somewhere to be said. She has it in her heart. She's using it cynically. She means it. She is what she is. Change the race with gender, with anti-gay remarks. Would she be an anti-semite if this were about faith? Can you call someone hateful things and not be an anti-semite? Hatred has many names but comes from one source. Race hatred, religious or gender hatred or gay hatred, its all the same. Use it at peril to your soul.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. Stoking racism is just as bad as being a racist
perhaps worse.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #120
241. I agree - and that's why Obama playing the race card turns off people
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
93. I'm a gay white woman who dares to call Geraldine Ferraro a racist. I want no part of the bullshit
she's trying to sell.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
103. for christsake, those who 'stood the slings and arrows' should
know better and NO ONE, NO ONE gets a pass on racist remarks. I don't care if a man or a woman is comdemning her for this. She earned it. Being female doesn't innoculate you against criticism for anything.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
105. Please.
You know nothing about parenting. You aren't one. So keep your ignorant crap to yourself. You know nothing about having kids. And I did not call her a racist. I said she made racist remarks. I'm sure you agreed with her comments. After all, I've seen some of your very questionable remarks. And shove the criticism of my parenting abilities.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #40
195. As I read it, she didn't call Ferraro a racist.
She said her remarks were racist. That is something different. And why are you saying someone DARES to call Geraldine Ferraro a racist anyway. I have no knowledge of whether or not she is a racist, but her comments were way over the line.
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NMMatt Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #40
210. It is that exact same attitude that would enable sexism in minority ethnic groups
This sense of entitlement to racist attitudes because of gender is exactly the same as a sense of entitlement to sexist attitudes because of race, but in reverse.
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ExPatLeftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #40
219. Logic?
You seem to display the lack of logic so prevalent in our society... That certain people are above any reproach or may not be criticised because they have "stood the slings and arrows". People are people, when they make asinine statements, they deserve to be called on it, regardless of other beneficial things they have done. Reminds me of the attitude that France should just shut up and go along with the Iraq war because the US had helped them in the past. It makes no sense. No one gets a free pass based on past acts, especially for racist statements. You may disagree that they are racist, but many disagree with you, and to tell them simply that Ferraro is above reproach makes no sense.

BTW To claim that the other poster should somehow stand behind Ferraro and not state her opinions about Ferraro because that poster is FEMALE is quite simply sexist. You say you are female - then you should know that all individuals, men and women alike, are individuals and opinions vary greatly. To claim that all women should support certain people and not state opinions contrary to that is to put women in the same subservient pigeonhole that you claim to fight against. Women, like everyone else, have the right to say whatever the hell they want without kowtowing to certain idols.

Oh, and to bring someone's KIDS and their parenting into such a discussion? Fucking lame. Period. The arrogance is breathtaking.
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groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #40
225. Geraldine probably understands sexism but her statement about Obama
indicates that she doesn't understand racism. If she did, she would never say what she did.

Almost all white people are racist in some way and DON'T KNOW IT. An honest self-examination will reveal it. Most the time, as in Geraldine's case, people reveal their racism without even knowing they're doing so. This is what it looks like when the barriers are coming down.
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
141. SHAME ON YOU CALI!!!11!!
Let's have a real DU post!
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. One suspects from the name that the OP is female.
And probably has a better idea of 'obstacles' than you do, being both female AND black. It's rather amusing to observe the...should one say 'maternalistic'? patronising, at least...attitude of so many white feminists, who think that they know best when it comes to the intersection of race and gender issues among their black sisters. Your comment is a splendid example of it.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
94. Dare you coin the phrase "matronising"? n/t
:)
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DogPoundPup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Too bad Ferraro's son was such a druggie...
Now we know why...I mean now that we know her true rascist colors, who wouldn't be involved in illegal drugs with a mom like her?

:popcorn:

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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
95. Over-the-top/line. And I certainly would want my preferred candidate ...
... associated with such a post. Or is your real surname Thorne?
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DogPoundPup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #95
125. Over the top;? I think NOT!
She can be vicious with all her hate-mongering on Network TV, but I can't express my opinion here on little ol' DU?



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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
199. I call foul on that comment
Bringing her son's alleged drug abuse into the picture is just hateful. I know we are all angry at her - I certainly am - but let's not climb down into the mud with her.
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BonnieJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. I am a woman and I am very disappointed in both
Hillary and Ferraro. Here they are in the years of their lives when they could have contributed so much to this country and they will only be remembered for their sad words. How many times have women said they could do so much better than their war-mongering male counterparts? Then they act just like Karl Rove.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
75. I believe it was a calculated effort to divide the vote in Mississippi and then PA
don't you?
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #75
98. Yes, you are correct.
Bill started it in South Carolina and they will continue it as long as it works. It's shameful.
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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #98
217. Not o sure the SC comment can be labeled as rascism
But more as an attempt to label Obama as a minority candidate. Which still should be insulting to all minorities.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #217
254. I thought the SC comment was racist because he compared
Barack specifically to Jesse Jackson, who is also african-american. He could've compared him to many white hopefuls who maybe get a state or two and then fall off the radar. Jesse was never seen as a serious contender for the presidency.
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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #254
258. And I think that was the case
Trying to label and compare him as a minority representative that had no serious claim or chance.

Ok, thinking that over again, it can perhaps be construed as racial, as that would more or less be the case of any, perceived or not, minority candidate.
I am somewhat sure that was not the intent, but there is definately a smell of "Look, one of 'those' have tried before and it amounted to nothing in the end."

Definately a comment signalling a condescending attitude, for sure.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #75
100. Yeppers. Make racism an issue in the race and re-brand Obama as the black candidate...
... just another Jackson or Sharpton ... with the (well-researched) expectation that they will net more votes in PA, overall.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #75
127. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #127
200. Enough already!
It seems as if you just want to start a p*ssing contest here.
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NMMatt Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #75
211. Unfortunately
But I have to wonder about its effectiveness. Were people who are going to accept Ferraro's extremely flawed point of view really waiting for a reason not to vote for Obama? The typical Rovian tactic is to smear a white candidate with a racist assocciation (Willy Horton and Dukakis, McCains "illegitamate black children" in SC). Dismissing Obama as the "lucky to be black" candidate is probably not getting them any votes that would have been Obama's and is certainly likely to turn off a lot of fair-minded people.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. Effie can lecture this woman if she wants
At least she has something important to say and says it well, which is a whole lot more than can be credited to most of the lectures delivered daily this primary season.

Perhaps you may suffer from this syndrome:

"deep-seated resentment, entitlement and fear"

Along with a closed mind. Otherwise, I can't see where your reaction to reading Effie's OP comes from.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. Closed? I've seen from both sides ... traditional and liberated
As a female CTO, I spend most of my time explaining things and no, I don't suffer.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
84. From the OP:
"Ferraro's comments reveal a deep-seated resentment..."

So do yours!
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Still-ill Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
110. Wow, you cant be serious
Dont lecture women on obstacles, is that a joke. Unless your a black women you know nothing about the obstacles of black people. There is no other race that has faced greater obstacles than what black people faced in this country. Not even women can equate their suffering in this country to that of black people.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
164. And what of 'people like Hillary'?
You know... 51+% of the population, a gender who have never gained the presidency, not even the vice presidency?
Them?

Yes, I know you know, that's just a rhetoric device :D

Seems like Hillary doesn't matter, comparatively; or matter as much. Still a second class citizen, although the parameters have slightly changed.

Clinton and Obama are in a neck-and-neck race, yet there is nary a day that goes by lately where a 'Hillary should step down now', highly rated, thread appears here. Nor have I seen one 'Obama should step down' thread, either highly or lowly rated.

Why?

Why
should she defer to this guy? Why is there no corresponding calls for the other to withdraw?

Curiouser and curiouser...

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ksquire Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
170. true -- obama is the most talented political leader of this generation
regardless of race. this is why this is so offensive -- however i agree with this poster that race is only a working category for blacks -- and that is the double standard.

it's intro to sociology 101. my guess is that most of us who are college educated post 1990 take this for granted, whereas some of these older posters have never heard of it.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
232. Obstacles?
Edited on Thu Mar-13-08 08:49 AM by Skidmore
Sure women have experienced obstacles throughout history, but white women participated actively in building the obstacles placed in front of people of color and not only African-Americans. The doctrine of empire shackled peoples of Asian, African, and Native American heritage all over the world. Colonial thinking has not gone away, I see. It saddens me greatly to see white women still seeking to assert the privilege to be first. We should be joining hands and rising together with our brothers and sisters.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. Ferraro is a strong women who will not be bullied. Simple as that.
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thevoiceofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. She is demented
I have opinions about things too. But I am not associated with the campaign of a democratic candidate. Even so, I keep most of them to myself.

Ask yourself this question. Did what she said need saying? If not (and of course the answer is no), she needs to learn to reserve expressing such things.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Name calling a respected Democrat!!.
She is demented
Posted by thevoiceofreason
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Araxen Donating Member (826 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. She is a racist
and isn't respected by me.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. more demeaning comments directed at a Democrat.
. She is a racist

and isn't respected by me.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
69. hey, Ferraro's comments were demeaning too
But that doesn't seem to have bothered you.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. Of course nothing Geraldine and Hilary do or say bother Rodeo, dance prancer..she defends them to
hilt and without hesitation...

Her motives are well out there..
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
113. Ferraro wears her racism proudly
She shouldn't be insulted or consider it name-calling to be referred to as a racist. She had the chance to undo what might have been a misinterpretation of her screed against affirmative action--but she instead parroted the tired conservative complaint about reverse descrimination.
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Medusa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. She's no longer respected by the mainstream of the Democratic party
and I dare say, an overwhelming number of the general public. Sure, she probably no doubt still enjoys a certain degree of "respect" from racists and the most devout of Hillbots. :crazy:
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. You make as ASSumption when you say she is no longer respected by the " the mainstream of the Democ
ratic party"

Mystery2Me (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Mar-12-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. She's no longer respected by the mainstream of the Democratic party

and I dare say, an overwhelming number of the general public. Sure, she probably no doubt still enjoys a certain degree of "respect" from racists and the most devout of Hillbots. :crazy:
" If my love is blind, then I don't want to see."
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
53. Here, copy this
I don't respect Geraldine Ferraro anymore. I had no idea she harbored such resentment, and held such twisted, old-fashioned, entitled and, frankly, racist opinions.

When a racist xenophobe crypto-facist like Pat Buchanan sticks his neck out to defend Geraldine Ferraro, I know for a fact I'm on the right side of this issue.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. I will not waste resourses copying slime related to Ferraro. You are duped
by RW TV pundits.--and then you repeat their talking points. tsk tsk




Here, copy this Updated at 10:28 PM

I don't respect Geraldine Ferraro anymore. I had no idea she harbored such resentment, and held such twisted, old-fashioned, entitled and, frankly, racist opinions.

When a racist xenophobe crypto-facist like Pat Buchanan sticks his neck out to defend Geraldine Ferraro, I know for a fact I'm on the right side of this issue.
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #55
218. What, because racist cryptofascists don't look out for one another?
Maybe you should take a look at your own ASSumptions.

Take another look at the statement:

"If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman (of any color) he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept."

I know Ive never met a racist who thought that a bunch of lazy black people were taking jobs from hard working whites through affirmative action and public goodwill. Or am I reading too much into it by taking it at actual face value?
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #53
132. I wrote something similar on my blog this morning
when I was about 12 and Ferraro was on the ticket with Mondale, I was so excited to see a woman in that position. It was a shallow kind of pride, though, because I didn't really know anything about her except that she was a woman. And I got even more excited when, in her debate with George HW Bush, she told him that she wouldn't put up with him "presuming to lecture me on foreign policy" (or something like that). She was a woman, dammit, and she was feisty, like the other women I admired.

And this whole thing has been a real epiphany for me. It showed how shallow my youthful pride was, and what was lurking behind that pride. Because Gerry Ferraro is an ignoble role model for behavior whether you are a burgeoning feminist or not. Her disgusting rhetoric belongs to the past, and not even to the 1984 kind of past, but the 1930s kind of past.

It's a sad wake-up call.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
104. I believe David Duke's been trying to get through to her offices ...
... to offer her the VP slot on his ticket.
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BonnieJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. I don't respect her.
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Respected? Respect is earned, and her racist comment did her no justice.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. Add to that "Mob connected"
from libnnc

Yeah. I typed it.

Ferraro is a Long Island "eyetalian" whose hubby torpedoed her political "career" because of his connections to mob buddies.

And her son is a coke head.


Is that ugly enough? Does Gerry REALLY want to go there?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. G. Ferraro is an intelligent woman who has achiements based on her own merits. bringing
in matters that happened years ago does your argument no good.



Add to that "Mob connected"

from libnnc

Yeah. I typed it.

Ferraro is a Long Island "eyetalian" whose hubby torpedoed her political "career" because of his connections to mob buddies.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. I'll type it again.
Ferraro's career ENDED IN '84 BECAUSE HER HUBBY WAS AS CROOKED AS A DOG'S HIND LEG.

And she's never gotten over that. She's bitter now. She has a PROBLEM with racial issues. SHE HAS ALWAYS HAD THAT PROBLEM.


Ugly, isn't it?

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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. the premise of your argument is wrong. Therefore the rest of you comments
are off also.





Ferraro's career ENDED IN '84 BECAUSE HER HUBBY WAS AS CROOKED AS A DOG'S HIND LEG.

And she's never gotten over that. She's bitter now. She has a PROBLEM with racial issues. SHE HAS ALWAYS HAD THAT PROBLEM.


Ugly, isn't it?
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. I really feel sorry for folks who can't read the writing on the wall.
Ferraro has a history of race baiting. And Clinton thought (for some whacked-out fucked up reason) that little habit would help her in this primary. Ugly, isn't it?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. more nonsence.


I really feel sorry for folks who can't read the writing on the wall.

Ferraro has a history of race baiting. And Clinton thought (for some whacked-out fucked up reason) that little habit would help her in this primary. Ugly, isn't it?
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Would you like for me to type it again?
Since you want us to think you're keeping some kind of list or something....

I really feel sorry for folks who can't read the writing on the wall.

Ferraro has a history of race baiting. And Clinton thought (for some whacked-out fucked up reason) that little habit would help her in this primary. Ugly, isn't it?

I really feel sorry for folks who can't read the writing on the wall.

Ferraro has a history of race baiting. And Clinton thought (for some whacked-out fucked up reason) that little habit would help her in this primary. Ugly, isn't it?

I really feel sorry for folks who can't read the writing on the wall.

Ferraro has a history of race baiting. And Clinton thought (for some whacked-out fucked up reason) that little habit would help her in this primary. Ugly, isn't it?

I really feel sorry for folks who can't read the writing on the wall.

Ferraro has a history of race baiting. And Clinton thought (for some whacked-out fucked up reason) that little habit would help her in this primary. Ugly, isn't it?

I really feel sorry for folks who can't read the writing on the wall.

Ferraro has a history of race baiting. And Clinton thought (for some whacked-out fucked up reason) that little habit would help her in this primary. Ugly, isn't it?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #56
70. No need. To me this thread is flamebait now and your posts contribute to that.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
80. Pssst...she's a little challenged...notice the continuous copying and pasting of
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 12:35 PM by NDambi
others posts?

Something's not right in "dance" land!
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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #80
216. My theory on rodeodance's copying of what s/he sees as the most offensive posts
I think it is to pass on the "worst" posts so that those in her camp that have so many on ignore lists can see what the "opposition" is saying. Of course, then they miss the more reasoned posts, and build up a false picture of what is really going on. This is similar to shielding Bush from the harsher realities of Iraq, for instance, or the price of gasoline, etc.

It warps the recipients POV and robs them of perspective. That could explain a LOT.

Of course, that is just a guess - I have asked rodeodance if that was the reason for it, quite respectfully, and got no response.
It is the only thing I could think of that made sense.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
153. She spoke at my college in 1988, and she belittled Jesse Jackson
She came during the primary season. An audience member questioned her about Jesse Jackson's campaign. At the time, Jesse had won a couple primaries and was solidly in the race, and had finished a strong second in my state.

Not only did Ferraro dismiss his campaign out of hand, she also dismissed his grassroots movement as irrelevant. Keep in mind this is the same movement that registered thousands of new Democrats in 1984 and played a big part in the Dems retaking the US Senate in 1986, and later played a pivotal roll in Bill Clinton's 1992 victory.

Ever since then, I've never really put much credence in anything she's said. She's nothing more than an establishment, DLC-type Democrat who is afraid of REAL grassroots democracy.
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
71. I was just about to type that. I remember when I was still in Jersey that
it came out her husband was connected. How I love hypocrits, she wouldn't have even gotten a second look except for at the time NOW was being their usual pushy and obnoxious selves and pushed her onto the scene. She's over and like Hillary, just can't seem to grasp it.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
122. Ooohhh juicy gossip!
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
201. I don't know whether Geraldine Ferraro wants to go there, but I don't
Most of us long-time Democrats know her history and don't need to have it pointed out to us again. It is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Her husband's supposed mob connections are irrelevant, as is her son's supposed cocaine addiction. This is just mud throwing.

Let's keep to the matter at hand. What she said WAS hateful and racist in my opinion. She DID have a position with the Clinton campaign. The Clinton campaign did not do enough to distance themselves from her remark. That is damning enough. We do not have to pile onto her and her husband to get our point across.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
29. A "formerly" respected Democrat.
I corrected your post.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
30. OMG! Call the FBI. "Name calling a respected Democrat!!"
rodeo, you crack me up.

:rofl:
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
31. *Should* she be respected after saying things like this (and in light of her 1988 remarks)?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #31
47. No.
Those of us who spoke out against Obama's pandering to homophobes would be hypocrites to excuse Ferraro's blatantly racist comments. Ferraro's comments are undeserving of respect. In fact, it's our obligation as Democrats to speak out against this message and denounce it as unbecoming of the Democratic Party.

I'm very disappointed in Hillary Clinton. Very disappointed. It would be far better for her to concede the nomination rather than stoop to these tactics.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
68. I don't respect her
What she said was racist and this isn't the first time she's said something along those lines towards a black man.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
121. no one is immune to criticism when they earn it.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
128. If you believe the Democratic party should cater to racists like Ferraro, that's just fucked up...
Bigots of all stripes have NO fucking place anywhere in our society, condemn them loud and clear, period.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
193. When did she become respected?
She was a fluke VP candidate who was part of one of the biggest landslide losses in Democratic history and then had a bunch of ethical problems.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:12 AM
Original message
Ferrarro's racism is a sign of weakness, not strength
What is her point? It is that Obama is not qualified to be president, he is only ahead because of his race. Maybe it is partisan blindness that prevents Ferrarro from seeing that Obama has the qualifications to be president. Or perhaps her racism cannot let her see that a black man can have the qualifications. In either case, her statements were steeped in race baiting and deplorable. I find it difficult to believe that in the 21st Century someone of her stature could stoop so low.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Farraro is a racist who is also hurting women and children. Shame on her.
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DogPoundPup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Ferraro is obviously a hate monger. Of course she won't
be bullied...she likes to antagonize and ramp up dissent...a scallywag of the Karl Rove sort.

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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Just out of curiosity, what would you do if your boss called you into the office.....
and said "the only reason you are where you are in the company is because of your skin color, and that's all that mattered when we promoted you."

That's what Geraldine said about Barack.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
58. So making a racist remark is standing up to bullying now?
Wow, up is down and black is white (pun intended) in HillaryWorld.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
77. You believing she's strong doesn't mean she can't be seen as a racist too
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 12:30 PM by NDambi
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
102. I don't think anyone is saying that racists are wallflowers or patsies.
In fact, racists are generally quite aggressive and defensive; traits that Ferraro is demonstrating in what would be an admirable fashion if she were championing a different position.
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
130. Stupid and belligerent - deadly combination.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
131. ferraro is as filthy as the trash coming out of her mouth
She knows exactly what she is doing, and she is unrepentant.

Fuck her and the Rodeoclown she rode in on!
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. Ferraro's scared she might have to close her sweatshop.
Why, if Hillary loses, social justice might get more than lip service in this country!
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. Thank You for That Thoughtful Analysis
Obviously, those insights are not among those that would have occurred to Geraldine Ferraro.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. Ferraro will not be Hoodwinked like the robe-kissing followers
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. I doubt very much if a racist like Ferrarro has the strength to reflect on her failings
Much easier to blame things on "reverse racism" or blacks having all the "advantages". Ferrarro is the bully and she is doing the hood winking.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
32. Ferraro said the same thing she said about Obama in '88 when talking about Jesse Jackson.
Is that a coincidence, durrrty libby? Or is she being attacked "because she's white"?
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
35. Kissing which robe?? Metaphor or what?
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islandmkl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
13. it is a troubling when you see our true barometer reading...
24 years ago Geraldine Ferraro signaled the entry of a woman into the very upper echelon of Presidential politics...a breakthrough for not only liberal Americans, a breakthrough for all people finding access to the power corridors of our country...

today we see Geraldine's arrow pointing somewhat right of center, not unlike the South Africans who held on, resisting true change away from apartheid, moderating conditions that would essentially 'remove' apartheid while leaving them fully in control...

this was supposed to be Hillary's Presidency to lose...and to move her campaign into reactionary politics might, hopefully, just bring that loss about...

"You've come a long way, baby."....yeah, clear past the center and over to the right...
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
17. The word of the day is entitlement.
That's the message I'm getting from the Hillary camp.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
25. I posted a similar thread, although not 1/100th as elegant as yours.
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 10:25 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
34. Perfect post
Nicely done.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
37. In reality, we know that we would have been here A LONG TIME AGO if we WEREN'T black.
best line of the article. Great read. Thanks!
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
41. I agree. Very good post. k&r.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
42. It is hard to believe that this somehow threatens her!
I mean WTF is her major malfunction?
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #42
74. Aging
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 12:26 PM by loyalsister
I have a sneaking suspicion that she may consider this her last and only chance to elect the first woman president.
She may be so invested that she resents Obama and is personally offended by his success.
She also seems to have some elitist tendencies. I have seen her talk about the "grassroots" in a way that devalues voters suggesting that voters are stupid and superdelegates are there because they are basically smarter.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #74
157. Aging?
She said the same thing when she was 20 years younger.
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treehuggnlibrul Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #42
231. Nah. She just sees change coming.
And she is angry and scared.

I was talking to someone the other day (a white 60-something female republican who doesn't think of herself as racist, but obviously is) who said, "If Obama wins, the blacks will think they have arrived."

She, like Ferraro, suddenly sees her view of the world -- with white privilege -- changing.

I'm a 44-year-old white woman, and I think Ferrraro has the same fear that the woman above was voicing. They are afraid that this will be the beginning of a shift away from white privilege they've known all their lives.
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workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
45. "RESERVED FOR WHITES ONLY"
Hillary Clinton's new campaign slogan?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
46. k/r Excellent post.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
50. Excellent piece. This should be in a major newspaper.
You are one helluva writer, Effie. Persuasive and thoughtful.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #50
82. Thanks, Jen
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #82
160. I agree
Effie, you should try to have this published.
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
51. Is it possible to be "stupid to death" instead of scared to death?
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
57. Nice post
Ms. Ferraro strikes me as the kind of person who, after climbing to the top, removes the ladder and greases the pole.
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chiffon Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
60. This is an excellent analysis and a truly cogent post.
:applause:

What a great read with a very interesting point of view. I gave pause...to think.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
61. Excellent post - thanks. As a white woman, what I hear from the Hillary supporters
too often is resentment that Barack threw is hat in the ring out of turn -- it was the girls' turn to take the presidency. They are upset that this 'uppity black guy has the nerve' to take the prize from them. What they don't get is it's not a gender or race thing. The fact is that Obama is simply a better candidate in innumerable ways than Hillary. I'm not voting and working for Obama because he's black - but as Oprah says: "I voting for him because he's brilliant"

I have heard the Steinem argument so many times - that being a woman is more of a handicap than being black - I could puke. Pitting sexism against racism is just stupid. Actually if I was pressed to make the case for which has been worse in America - I don't think I would have too much trouble arguing that racism has been the more destructive force, but it's not worth it to do so. Both sexism and racism should be taboo.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
62. Spot on OP. 10/10. Well said.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
64. she is not afraid - believe it
nt
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
66. I've said it before, I'll say it again.
Ferraro sounds like many of her constituents - people who talk the talk of the good liberal while muttering about 'the coloreds' when they think they're among safe company.

The fact that she sees nothing wrong with what she has now repeatedly said is evidence of how out of touch she really is. And the fact that she hasn't been dismissed by the Clinton campaign tells me that they're more about the dollar than doing the right thing. After all, Ferraro has raised over $100K for Clinton's campaign, and those kind of numbers will excuse a multitude of sins among those who place ambition above basic fairness and good sense.

- as
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NYDem Observer Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
67. Excellent Thread
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
72. "Most blacks - including me - who have benefitted from affirmative action are used to this dynamic."
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 12:43 PM by NDambi
We know full well that we are completely qualified to be where we are - often more qualified than the white people who take it as a given that they should be here, too - yet are consistently faced with this snide, smug, and arrogant questioning of our right to be here and accusations that "you're only here because you're black." In reality, we know that we would have been here A LONG TIME AGO if we WEREN'T black.

Amen sister. Amen.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #72
205. You know, it is never called 'affirmative action'...
when a C- student is admitted into Yale because his father donated money to the college and was a 'Skull and Bones' member.

It wasn't called 'affirmative action' when that same man's father, or his father's rich friends, came to his rescue every time he ran a business into the ground.

It wasn't called 'affirmative action' when he campaigned based on his father's name, or when his father's consigliere convinced the Supreme Court to hand him the Presidency.

When some incompetent white man is given a position of power because of his connections or his race, that is never mentioned. But when a black man, or a woman is promoted, then it's "just because they're black," or "just because they're a woman." Amazing, isn't it?
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
79. Ferraro is amoral Scum
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
81. Kicked and Recommended!
:kick:
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knowledgeispwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
83. A great, thoughtful post.
I don't understand how anyone could be defending Ferraro's comments, especially knowing that this is nothing new for her.

Alas, you can't make people see the light if they refuse to even open their eyes.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
85. Thank you my sister!
I couldn't have said it better myself if I tried.

But you know, that's why its called institutional racism....because 1/2 of the people doing it don't realize that they are; that's how deeply ingrained it is.

Thank you much of this seriously needed serious post.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #85
181. Indeed. You might want to bold that "institutional" part
Overt hate of the David Duke variety is far less of a problem than all the unspoken assumptions that people "know" which just ain't so.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
86. I see it exactly the way you describe it.
Well done!

:applause:
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
87. Why don't they just start calling him a nigger and get it over with!
I will never vote for Hillary Clinton.
Not now.

Not even if my life depended on it - and it does.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Major!
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
90. Isn't Ferraro most easily shown to be a fool ...
... if not a racist or sexist ...

... by the simple fact that you can point to no African-American ever having been on the Presidential ticket for either of the two main political parties, but you *can* point to one female who has. Ferraro, herself.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
96. If you say Ferraro is a racist, you don't understand what she is saying
she is saying that

1. racism in this country exists

2. if Barak was a white guy there would have been many more upfront hard questions about him and his meteoric rise, both by the press and by the public, because it would have been viewed differently.

3. that it is because of that different perception, he would not be in the position he is today (running for president after 1 term as a senator)...


and this is an entirely valid statement. you can disagree with it, but i would not say that she is "racist" or anti-african-american because of it.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #96
101. I understand perfectly what she is saying -
and she is doing it to pander to the bigots amongst us.

As for running for president after 1 term as senator - sounds like Edwards or Clinton. Noone questioned whether they should run.

I do agree with your first statement - racism in this country exists (as evidenced by your post).

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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #101
116. i didnt say i agreed or disagreed, yet you call me racist? kinda detracts from your credibility
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #116
133. you didn't have to because it comes through in your post
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. I am part-african american.... 0.o
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 04:27 PM by Texas Hill Country
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #96
109. Stop with the attempts offer bullshit excuses for a clearly racist statement.
Did you even read what EffieBlack wrote?
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #109
115. yes i did... and wow, you people are so blinded...
call me a racist? I said it was a valid viewpoint... i did not say whether i agree or disagree with it, but that it was valid...

ridiculous.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #115
126. Good grief! I did not call you a racist. Do you read before you post?
I was questioning your defense of Ferraro's undefensible and, pathelogical comments. I imagine you are a better persont than to defend her racist words. I hope so.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #126
136. I dont think that she was being anti-african american... aka racist.
There are certain realities of race, especially race in politics, that still exist in this country. There are also several very valid points of view explaining this... is hers the most right, perhaps not, but it is not totally invalid.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #115
144. She is doing it for political reasons, THC
My reasoning is that she didn't have to bring race into it. She simply could have said he was "too inexperienced" as a junior senator. I would argue that there are other factors that are just as important, but at least it would've been a valid argument.

Noone would come out and say "Edwards is lucky he's white" after running for president after only one senate term, though it's the same thing.

She is implying that Barack Obama is only where he is due to affirmative action, and is not otherwise qualified to run.

I beg to differ. He is Ivy-league educated, Harvard law school & president of law review (indicating high academic achievement), worked for years as a civil rights attorney and organizing people on the streets, state senate for 8 years, and now the US senate for 2 years. That is hardly the resume of a loser. Beyond that he shows great leadership skills, ability to bring people together, and acute judgment that Hillary is sorely lacking (opposition to the Iraq war when it was unpopular to oppose it).

She had to throw race into it to appeal to the Mississippi voters who she views as uneducated and hopefully racist. If I were from Mississippi or PA I would be doubly offended by her comment and elitist attitude.

Her resignation letter today just illustrates how bitter and nasty she is. Instead of taking responsibility for her own words she tries to blame them on the person she victimized - Senator Obama. Game over, Geraldine, it's time to move on.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #96
117. Her remarks came off as patronizing...

also she seems to be reinforcing the old right-wing argument of reverse-discrimination. Most people see Obama being handled quite differently than previous African-Americans who have run for president. One could just as easily say that Obama has gotten where is because he is white (Mother's side). Think about it.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #117
135. I dont disagree with you, but I am do disagree that she is a "racist" or anti-african american...
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #135
166. Her remarks were based on the assumption that...

Obama rose to his position by virtue of his race. Many of us feel that this assumption could not be further from the truth and, if anything, Obama's race as well as his name would have posed barriers to his ability to become a presidential frontrunner. When he won the primary in Iowa many of us became hopeful that even in Middle America people would be able to look beyond race and judge him based on his qualifications. Ferraro is working to destroy that hope, and substitute a different explanation for his success, an explanation that appeals to conservatives. Her "reality" may have existed decades ago, but the 'hopeful' reality that we perceive is that people have evolved and will prove that older generation wrong!
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monarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #96
167. Well said!!

Thank you!!!
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
99. excellent...
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
107. I am honored to kick & recommend this very important commentary.
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 02:18 PM by David Zephyr
EffieBlack, you have said what has needed to be heard here for a long, long time.

You have put it all out there for everyone of us now and all of us should just stop, check our hearts and our minds and square it with your powerful message.

Geraldine Ferraro, once someone I admired, has lost all her luster. All of it.

What she originally said along with her defiant attitude and statements since she first said it makes me sick.

And what you wrote makes me ashamed of a lot of white, so-called "liberal Democrats". You have said what needs to be said! Thank you.

"Does anyone really believe that Obama is the first qualified, brilliant, inspirational, politically-skilled black person to come along in American history? Of course he's not. But until very recently, no matter how qualified, how brilliant, how inspirational, how politically-skilled a black person was, there was no way on earth that he could EVER get to where Obama is - while the George W. Bushes of the world just marched right in and pulled up a seat, fully confident in THEIR right to be there. The fact that Obama is where he is has nothing to do with his being black. It has everything to do with the fact that Americans have taken baby steps toward removing some of the obstacles that have kept people like Obama from taking a seat alongside the mob of white people of varying (and often most meager) talents and skills who think they have every right to do anything they want to in life."
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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
111. Yep. And she keeps plowing ahead.
I suspect she thinks this will help the Clinton campaign. She was out there today defening her comments. I guess the Clinton campaign must not mind it too much.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
112. Excellent post!!!
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
118. Very well put. K and R
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
119. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
powergirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
123. Fabulous post - you have articulated the problem of Ferraro's words
with searing accuracy. It is about fear of not having that safe place where "everything is all set up nice." What is also unsaid by Rep. Ferraro is her resentment that this was supposed to be Sen. Clinton's race, it was already set up nice. Obama has no business messing this one up for all of "us women."

As a woman, I refuse to be put in the same category with these, so called, women of leadership. The blatant racism or an "ism" of any kind does nothing to advance the standing of women. I support Obama because he had to work his ass off twice as hard as any other candidate in history. And I support him because he will WIN!
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
129. k&r for the truth. this argument is undeniable. n/t
:dem:

-Laelth
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
137. CLASSIC, WONDERFUL post--Reminds me of Robert Jensen's famous "White Privilege" essay:
that continues to "remove the scales from the eyes" of millions about the nature of institutionalized racism in America.

From http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm :

"WHITE PRIVILEGE SHAPES THE U.S. Robert Jensen,School of Journalism, University of Texas, Austin

first appeared in the Baltimore Sun, July 19, 1998

... White privilege, like any social phenomenon, is complex. In a white supremacist culture, all white people have privilege, whether or not they are overtly racist themselves. There are general patterns, but such privilege plays out differently depending on context and other aspects of one's identity (in my case, being male gives me other kinds of privilege). Rather than try to tell others how white privilege has played out in their lives, I talk about how it has affected me.... "
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. Thanks. And thanks for posting this EXCELLENT essay!
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 04:59 PM by EffieBlack

Here's what white privilege sounds like:

I am sitting in my University of Texas office, talking to a very bright and very conservative white student about affirmative action in college admissions, which he opposes and I support.

The student says he wants a level playing field with no unearned advantages for anyone. I ask him whether he thinks that in the United States being white has advantages. Have either of us, I ask, ever benefited from being white in a world run mostly by white people? Yes, he concedes, there is something real and tangible we could call white privilege.

So, if we live in a world of white privilege--unearned white privilege--how does that affect your notion of a level playing field? I ask.

He paused for a moment and said, "That really doesn't matter."

That statement, I suggested to him, reveals the ultimate white privilege: the privilege to acknowledge you have unearned privilege but ignore what it means.

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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. I wholeheartedly think YOUR post is much better written than Jensen's essay
IMO you should submit it as an op-ed to the NY Times (if you're willing to shed your anonymity). I believe your essay would make much more sense to most people than Orlando Patterson's Times op-ed the other day.
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #138
204. There's another great essay on the same subject that deserves a link
WHITE PRIVILEGE: Swimming in Racial Preference, by Tim Wise

http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=722

Ask a fish what water is and you'll get no answer.

Even if fish were capable of speech, they would likely have no explanation for the element they swim in every minute of every day of their lives. Water simply is. Fish take it for granted.

So too with this thing we hear so much about, "racial preference." While many whites seem to think the notion originated with affirmative action programs, intended to expand opportunities for historically marginalized people of color, racial preference actually has had a long and very white history...
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #137
184. I've often wished that white privilege was something that could just be taken off--
--like one of the layers of rainwear we use out here in Goretexland. It would be helpful if more white people would just admit to its reality.
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
140. good post.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
142. It reads: "MEN ONLY."
Replace women with black through your entire post. The rich white guys have succeeded....they have 'DIVIDED AND CONQUERED' us.

I'm done. This country is done. Shit, this world is done.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Except for one small item you overlooked, Obama never dissed Hillary for being a woman.
And that is the truth.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #143
149. Actions speak louder than his words....
I see how he regards women. 'Present' votes on Choice. HRC never did that. He did NOTHING about Plan B...HRC and Patty Murray had to get that battle taken care of. I read Michelle's interview in Vanity Fair. Every women saw him as he said, 'You're likable enough, Hillary' as he looked down writing...too busy to look at her. He's an arrogant, full of himself, egotistical BRAT with no record. Just a great Marketing Plan to sell himself. Yes I Can Yes I Can Yes I Can...how lame.

"Men Only" and that has nothing to do with whatever imaginary barbs you heard.

Divide and Conquer is being used by the fascists. McCain has already won. Get over it. Your little 'Men Only' still stands. Happy??? hogwash...you are that.

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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #149
154.  Hillary is a WarMongering asshole has shown the world she does not deserve political office.
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 08:35 PM by Tom Joad
get over it.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #154
177. Sure hope you feel the same way about
W...or do you just express such hatred toward Dem

women? Got mommy issues? I have heard this 'get over it' so many times. Is this like 'yes we can?' Get over it...yes we can...we want hope.

You speak to a fellow Dem in a more disgusting way than you do a neocon. So if BO is the candidate, and HRC's supporters stay home cuz Dems have treated us worse than W, who are you going to blame then? Mommy?

It's over all right....say hello to Prez McCain. Probably doesn't make much difference...our country is over, too. Pretty soon oil will be $5/gal and grid will start to brown out...food distribution will break down...well you get the picture, don't ya?

And there'll you be screaming and cussing and calling everyone names about how it's their fault that you don't have a job or food. See...it'll be over, alright. Mommy won't even take care of you.

Get over that, ya father-fuck.

Ignored
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #177
202. lol. That is a pretty sexist and insulting post.
But it made me lol hard :rofl:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #202
251. choke on it. twit.
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ampad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
145. Thank you Effie
I had to come out of lurk mode to say thank you for this great article. I have lurked here for a couple of weeks and have learned quite a bit about feminism. As a black woman I just want to say thank your for speaking and saying what I have felt since the start of this campaign. People are really showing their true colors and I thank Hillary Clinton for that. That is about all I can thank her for. I really hope you have a blog that you can publish this article on.
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Utopian Leftist Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
146. Amazing post!
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 06:51 PM by Utopian Leftist
That is one of the most brilliant and eloquent posts I've ever seen here at DU. Thank you for posting it! :)

I second what someone else said about getting it published. Any news source should be proud to have such an editorial.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
148. Kicked and recommended. Frigging beautiful post.
Geraldine's rant is too disgusting for me to put into words, yet you put that part of it aside enough to tear her poor excuse for an argument to shreds. She and anyone else who attempts to forward that argument are garbage, human refuse.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
151. Obama is getting the attention because he is black.
Just as Hillary got attention for being a woman.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 07:32 PM
Original message
Wait a minute, you're proving something other than what you think you are.
For example: this country has elected 43 white presidents. Until now, it was not even considered a remote possibility that a black person could be elected president, i.e., you HAD to be white in order to even be considered for the presidency, i.e., being white was a distinctive advantage for any presidential candidate.

I've heard this frequently. I never believed it.

Then you say:

And now that he has demonstrated that white and black voters will vote for him, we are now being told that his being black is an ADVANTAGE - i.e., being white is a DISADVANTAGE.

I guess I was right, being black wasn't a disqualifier. Is this debatable?

Both Hillary and Obama are beneficiaries of a desire for change from white men as president. In the current political environment, their gender and their race are advantages. Exit polls confirm this. Voters who respond that gender is important tend to vote for Hillary, those who respond that race is important tend to vote for Obama.

I just wish they represented a meaningful political change.

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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
169. I'm really disappointed to see you write that.
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 09:51 PM by mojowork_n
I was sorry to see that a surprising number of people in this thread, despite the outstanding analysis that carefully spelled it all out, apparently weren't listening.

Oh, well.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #169
187. I did read it. I think it was well written.
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 11:42 PM by lumberjack_jeff
I just disagree. I don't think that it was universally understood/agreed that a black person - or a woman - could not be president... at least not since I've been an adult.

Now that it's been proven that this was a misconception (however widely-held the belief might have been), we're having to reevaluate our beliefs. Having gotten this far, is Obama's ethnicity actually working to his benefit? Exit polls suggest that it is.

Explain to me what I misunderstood.
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #187
209. You could start by following the link in post 204
or google, "Tim Wise water to a fish affirmative action" to find it.

It's available at Tolerance.org and Housingforall.org.

By way of saying I think it's way to early to suggest anything's "been proven" yet about gender or race in our elections. We haven't actually had the general election, yet, for one thing. All of this is still evolving, which is what makes it interesting, and kind of challenging to think about.

I tried to put it into some sort of context in post 172, farther down the thread. Trying to get people to consider the unconscious sorts of "me, first" assumptions they may have, without thinking them all the way through. As I think Effie Black was doing.

As far as exit polls go, I think they're only superficially useful, in the context of who's answering what specific question, where and when. You can't draw too many unlimited conclusions from those little bits of information, scattered across any sort of artificial population distribution.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
227. You've never believed it?
Do you also not believe in gravity?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #227
249. I've never believed that a black person could not be president.
I was demonstrably right.

Explain to me your views on gravity.
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gsplfnk Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
152. If so, then Hillary should be scared to death.
No matter what way you cut this, Ferraro's comments were racist. She was basically arguing the old anti-equal opportunity refrain, and diminishing Obama's character as a human being, simply by front-loading his color, just as she did with Jesse Jackson in 1988.

The real thing we should be focusing on here is that Hillary Clinton gave only a tepid denunciation to Ferraro's comments the first time (about Obama's blackness) and the second time (about Ferraro's whiteness).

It's almost as if Clinton guided Ferraro, that Clinton wanted to place Obama's blackness in front of his intelligence and character on the world stage.

And this would take us back in time well before Rosa Parks.

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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
155. That... is an excellent and insightful post. Thank you for it! nt
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
156. thanks, Effie. Love reading your stuff. k&R. nt
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
159. k&r


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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
161. Ferraro was correct in one thing only, and that is that BHO would not be himself were he not from
African ancestry. In fact, he would not exist at all save for his genetic material from both his parents. Had his parents not met, he would not even exist.

Senator Obama is the sum of both nourish and nature. One does not trump the other and each feeds onto the other. Life is not a closed loop with no feedback, real or perceived.

GF being a woman absolves her from nothing at all. To claim otherwise is sexist in the Nth degree. White people can only imagine what Black people undergo socially. And vice versa. I suspect strongly that I shall never be arrested for driving or walking while black, though. I doubt any shop owner will hover over me as I shop. I can walk into any restaurant on 125th ST and no one will "look at me". That does not apply in the opposite direction.

Being black, white, beige, or albino, male, female, or intergendered does not give you an automatic pass to denigrate any other person for genetic accident.

Had I any money, I would give it to Mr. Obama, and tell him it is from a white man who doesn't care what color he is and that he is a US senator and Mrs. Ferraro can kiss my Black Irish butt.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
162. Beautiful.
:kick:
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
163. She's not scared, she's pissed off.
She's sick and tired of selective racism.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
165. Racism runs very deep in this country. It's there just under the surface. It's called tribalism
and is as old as humanities existence. Very few us are truly free of.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
168. This is as well written a piece as I have ever seen here.
I am going to plagiarize the hell out of you. Well done.

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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
171. Great post...but I thought that a black man had all the advantages in presidential campaigns,
especially if they had a Muslim-sounding name like Barak Obama--make that Barak Hussein Obama--it's such an advantage! And his skin color isn't really that dark, it's more of a medium brown, like a Muslim skin color. Whatta lucky guy! That's exactly what most Americans nowadays were looking for in a president. Obama is so lucky he didn't even have to work to get where he is. Hillary is such a hard worker, doncha know, not like some kinds of people who are born lazy but lucky. Did I mention how unfair all this has been for Hillary? She works so hard! And it's being taken away from her for no reason except the color of her skin. Oh the unfairness of it all!
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
172. Probing deeper into "Me, First," and the real lesson for the General Election
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 11:12 PM by mojowork_n
A D.U.'er named George_Bonanza posted this to another thread:

"...The thing about angry Clinton supporters is not that they don’t want a Black candidate, and in fact, it is probably their dream to see one in their lifetime: it is just that they don’t want to see a Black candidate/president before one of their own (a White woman) rightly takes her long-awaited place in the highest office of the land. And most crucially, they don’t want this guy to DEFEAT their champion. The humiliation would be too great, at least in their mind. It is all about the timing, the respect, the dues. If America was a father or a mother, then White men would undoubtedly be the first-born and the primary beneficiary of favouritism and privilege. But who comes next? Who’s next in line? The White man is a dying king, and he has two children with seemingly equal right to his throne.

It is my theory that if Barack Obama were the typical presidential candidate (i.e. old and White), there’d be less bitterness and more positive crusaderism in the Clinton camp. But it is his youthfulness and particularly his race that is galling to so many that closely identify with Clinton (namely, older White women). They see themselves as the shadow pioneers, the shadow revolutionaries, the shadow constitutionalists, the shadow artists, etc. And finally, after centuries of unfair neglect and abuse, the sun was to shine on them in 2008. Then along comes this Barack Obama, whom they can’t openly hate and criticize because he’s not Them; he’s supposed to be Us. But they do hate him, and this repressed hate bursts out at the most inopportune time, like with Ferraro.

The ugly undercurrent of this feeling is that in the minds of these Clinton supporters, there exists a long waiting line for redressing past injustices, and White women should be at the very front. The idea that there’s a racial/gender hierarchy amongst the idealists who despise such hierarchies in the first is very disturbing. It exposes them to be self-interested “ambitionists”, not idealists. They oppose White patriarchy not because it’s unfair to everybody, but more so because it’s unfair to them. If others, such as the Blacks, benefit as a collateral effect, then hoorah for justice, but they still have to wait their turn. And Barack Obama has just cut in line.


To which I offered,

Barack Obama has just cut in line.

And the really appalling thing is that they never saw him coming.

Maybe not all, but certainly some Clinton supporters, like Ferraro, for whom (apologies to Ralph Ellison) Barack is "invisible." However you want to say it, a cipher, a pretender, the candidate from the back of the bus.

By no means is that a point of view confined to white Clinton supporters, though. I spent some time going door to door for Barack, on election day, in mostly black neighborhoods. I never saw one white face come to the door, all day.

The overwhelming majority of people I talked to were positive, or at least hopeful about his chances, but there were also some emphatic nay-sayers. "His name's Barack Hussein Obama," one big dude told me, "I'm for Hillary."

'I want to win, we need to get the Republicans out of there,' is what I would have expected him to say if we'd spoken longer. I certainly didn't detect a sense of antipathy to Obama.

He wasn't mad at Barack. There was an echo of a frustrated howl of disappointment, in fact. A recognition that, "it's not fair, they won't play fair." His bottom line, "I'm for Hillary," seemed to me to be his best stab at putting a positive spin on the situation, with a finality that precluded further discussion.

Or any loose talk of "hope."

Put that dynamic into the context of the cable channels' constant spinning of both candidates chances.

It's like some sort of disorienting, tumbling, roller coaster, "yo-yo" effect.

Yesterday it seemed to me that the media people must keep turning over rocks, to find someone who will feed them an anti-Hillary sound bite. I wasn't sure she was still with us, but yesterday it was first generation feminist Germaine Greer. She was quoted as saying Hillary was "cold, bossy and manipulative." (Those words resonated in my head, so that's the exact quote. Four words, short and to the point, intended to confirm everyone's worst fears about Hillary.) Nancy Pelosi must have gotten less camera time, because I still haven't seen what she said.

The steady stream of endorsements, and anti-endorsements, the good news and bad news for the candidates of our choice is intended to make our heads explode, exceeding the physical threshold there, for "matter" and "anti-matter." At the same time that they're routinely trashing one candidate or the other, the cable news channels are lovin' their other responsibility -- talking up the likely possibilities by which Hillary can still pull it off, and Barack might lose.

Nothing's more fun for (whoever it is that's scripting the cable news narrative) than telling us the nomination may not be decided "until right up to the convention, because Hillary has such strong support in all those {areas that count.}"

Yesterday, with the 20+ point win for Obama in Mississippi, all they could focus on was how poorly Barack did among white, male voters. Like it was Springtime for Hillary -- and Germany; Win-ter, for Michelle and Barack. Catastrophic bad news, because...

They never talked about "because", or tried to probe deeper into those troubling numbers.

But this is the context, as I see it:

  • There's still some peckerwoods left in the south. (Go figure.)
    and/or
  • Some folks just thought Hillary might have a better shot.


But the talking heads are always careful to avoid casting both of our candidates in a positive light, in the same context.

D.U.'er McCamy Taylor recently quoted Santayana to say, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

But if that's true, you'd have to ask why aren't the military geniuses who built the Maginot Line buried at Les Invalides, up and a little to the right from Napoleon?

There's another truism that says "preparing to re-fight the battles of the last war isn't always the safest preparation."

In 1968 and 1972, our side had nothing like the disastrous record of The Worst President Ever, to oppose.

Whoever our nominee is, the Other Side's couldn't have screwed up any more royally. By trying to write off the cost of a "likely, quick victory in Iraq," on the cheap, they've compounded the original mistake. Through the miracle of compound interest (principally owed to overseas creditors) the "100-year struggle in Iraq became something we could no longer afford, three or four years ago. The economy's so totally messed up our kids' kids will still be paying it off, decades from now. And let's just hope it's not their responsibility, too, to restore America's good name, and international reputation.

No amount of digital sleight-of-hand, or cable news cycle up and down yo-yo'ing, is going to change that.

In the past 3 or 4 election cycles, our side hasn't always had the means to affect the prevailing, dominant media narrative. Only now, more than ever, accurate, intelligent information really is going to count as "ammunition."

Unlike past years, this time we do have Keith, Jon and Stephen, and a few others. It's been great to see a little more diversity among the frequently re-appearing talking heads, with Eugene Robinson, Clarence Page, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz really scoring some good points.

I know there are others, once in a while someone from The Nation will get on, but what's most encouraging is that sometimes even a Republican will pop off and surprise you with the truth. At least on foreign policy, and it's effect on the economy. That's in large part what Ron Paul's candidacy was all about.

For whatever it's worth, however responsibly we choose to carry out the assignment, we've also got the "netroots" -- each other.

So, to sum up; yes, many of us have "our" {insert identity group here} first choice for the Royal Succession, the candidate we instinctively feel is best suited for the mantle of the throne.

Going back to the original trope, it's the right to succeed His Royal Highness, King William; our First, Reigning Ethiopian Monarch. (Who played the sax and even showed a little rhythm, once in a while.)

Of course the Hillary Clinton supporters will be disappointed, maybe even a little blinded, when it comes to honestly considering the possibility of a Kenyan-American claimant to the Top Spot. From my point of view, they're also blind to the narrow, linear, "re-fighting the battles of the last war to win the next" strategy that ignores the danger of compartmentalized thinking, and institutionalized, "anointed" candidates.

If we end up with Bush--Clinton--Bush--Clinton (followed by Jeb--Chelsea), I'm afraid a real opportunity will be lost, to start over fresh, with a blank slate and a compelling, innately talented new candidate -- Barack Obama. Given our present set of circumstances (it's not the 90's anymore), I don't think there's a better choice, but that's just me.

If we all want to get together and make sure a Democrat succeeds the Worst President Ever, some perspective is in order. People need to question the gender/race/succession assumptions they may have "decided" on, without really having thought them through.

If that happens, if there's some open, non-critical, honest discussion, maybe we can all take a breath, chill, and turn to face the Republicans in November, stronger than ever.

Last Edit:

Oops, almost forgot to post the link to the original thread, George_Bonanaza's post, "Hillary Clinton's Campaign and the Esau Complex."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5041176

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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
173. What is sad about both Ferraro and Hillary is they got where they are bec of husbands and money
I was totally pissed off at her comments. My whole life I've been told I only got where I am bec I am a woman. I'm frankly shocked she didn't hear herself, that it didn't occur to her it was dismissive and demeaning. Obama's response was spot on.
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aasleka Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
174. I have always been an advocate for fair treatment whether it be a woman
trying to earn the same pay as her male counterparts, equal opportunity for minorities who have been given schools without funding or men who try to argue for equality in family court, everyone should have the same footing but Ferraro showed us exactly what is wrong with our society when the policies and arguement for change are regarded as nothing, less than unimportant as the color of a mans skin.

Free your mind, your ass will follow!
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
176. Another KICK for one of the most meaningful, well-written posts I've read in 7 years on this forum.
:kick:
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #176
178. agreed. Great post. K&R
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Singular73 Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
180. As someone on MSNBC said a few days back
If Obama was white, he'd be Kennedy.
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penguin7 Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
182. I just hope Obama can win
Personally, my only worry about electing a black president is that somehow he could be steamrolled into starting some stupid war. I do not know if this is reasonable or not, but it is a worry in the back of mind. White guys are so good at starting stupid wars that this is probably a silly worry.

I also worry whether Obama can win. I know damn well this country is pretty stinking racist. The reaction to the OJ Simpson case proves this.

This is going to be a very dirty election and I hope Obama wins it.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #182
233. You can look at it like this.
We can be 99% certain that McCain will continue the wars.

HRC voted for the war. I'm not convinced she will try to end the war.

We don't KNOW what he will do, but we have a darn good idea what we can expect from the other two.

I don't understand what you mean when you say a black president could be steamrolled.

I agree the country is racist but Obama's chances are about the same as HRC's, actually his chances are better. The election will be dirty, but elections have been that way for some time now. Willie Horton comes to mind.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
183. She faces serious health challenges, and I respect her stamina in the face
of that, but my god in heaven she sounds like a shrieking maniac this week, yelping and barking about race and gender.

Christ. It was an amazingly embarrassing and vacuous performance.

Brought to a swift close, I hope, by her resignation today and if not by that, then certainly by Keith Olbermann's air-tight assessment this evening.

Geraldine Ferraro shredded her icon status down to corner-grocery size this week.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #183
185. The incredible shrinking woman-Geraldine Ferraro....I've lost so much respect for SEVERAL people
this election cycle but these remarks are the worst yet. Senator Clinton needs to step up to the plate and end this crap or she will be unforgiveably tied to these despicable comments. I really don't think she wants that.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #185
186. Hi, Rowdyboy.
Listen. Very nice to see you and read a post of yours this evening.

Agree with you on all points. "the incredible shrnking woman" indeed.

What happened to Geraldine Ferraro's judgment? I used to think I knew a thing or two about her. I liked her better than her running mate in 84. I wanted THAT Geraldine Ferraro to tell her friend Hillary, 'No, I won't say THAT. I'll help in other ways if I can, but no, I won't say THAT.'
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #186
188. Truly, I liked Gerry Ferraro WAY more than Walter Mondale in 1984....
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 11:45 PM by Rowdyboy
I wanted Gary Hart to beat him so badly because Hart might have stood a chance. Ferraro was Mondales saving grace for me at the time. Now she just leaves me sad. Old and sad. Part of thats due to Eliot Spitzer too.

Good to hear from you.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #186
226. This may not have been HRC's idea.
Ferraro has said this before. It seems obvious that this is what she thinks of Black people. They are not qualified and they can achieve only with an unfair advantage.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #226
230. It's possible that GF did this of her own accord, but she was, until yesterday,
a member of HRC's campaign finance committee and the candidate, ultimately, needs to assume control of who is representing her.

Ferraro's record with Afro Americans doesn't appear to be very worthy of a role in any presidential candidate's campaign.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
198. Ferraro is really old and outdated, I am afraid. She just look good for a granny.
There was a whole lot of hostility between men and women back in her days and also a lot of tension between the Civil Rights and Women's Rights movements. For example, the brothers would expect the sisters to have sex with them to show that they respected them but then the women would not want to have sex so they could feel respected and this was in the days when sex was a big deal.

It is a saner world now. Be glad you live in this world.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #198
224. You said
"the brothers would expect the sisters to have sex with them to show that they respected them"

Thank Heavens that didn't happen with the groups that I was involved with.
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Iwillnevergiveup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
203. My question to Geraldine Ferraro would be
"Why can't you just talk up Hillary in your support for her?"
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
206. Geraldine Ferraro is a has-been
and I'll leave it at that.
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williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
212. I'm white and couldn't agree w/you more. She sickens me. Rec'd
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MagickMuffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
213. Thank you for this wonderful insight
I also agree this would make an excellent OP ED article.

Speaking of Carol Moseley-Braun, she tried to get news coverage and NO ONE would give her the time of day. No one would allow her to offer her message to the American voters. I was really surprised she even got included in some debates.





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treehuggnlibrul Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
220. EXACTLY so. Beautiful post. K&R nt
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
222. Thank you for this thread, Effie.
Sorry I could only be the 135th recommender for it, and simultaneously glad that others piled on to acknowledge it.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
223. The shift in dynamic shold be celebrated andI am proud of America for it. BUT Obama did do it on ..
talent and political skill which makes me proudof him also.
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Unite 08 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
229. The same old pages out of Bush's book.
SOME OF US CLAIM TO BE DEMOCRATS AND DEMOCRATIC, HOWEVER, 
WHAT IS TRULY PUZZLING IS THAT THESE PEOPLE SEEM TO FAIL TO GO
BEYOND THEIR PREJUDICES AND SUPERFICIALITIES, THAT OBAMA IS
BLACK (I quote: Former vice-presidential candidate Geraldine
Ferraro says Barack Obama is succeeding in part because he is
black.), THAT HE IS  FROM A SIGLE-MOTHER FAMILY, THAT HIS
MIDDLE NAME IS HUSSEIN,  THAT HE WAS PHOTOGRAPHED WEARING A
TRADITIONAL AFRICAN COSTUME (A picture incidentally used by
the Hilary Clinton camp in an attempt to do damage to him),
THAT HE SPENT PART OF HIS CHILDHOOD IN THE EAST, ETC. THEY
FAIL TO SEE THAT HE REPRESENTS A WHOLE NEW AGE, AN AGE
DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THE ESTABLISHED, ELITIST  WASHINGTON
FORM OF GOVERNMENT AND GOVERNANCE THAT CLINTON AND THE LIKES
REPRESENT, WITH THEIR CLOAK AND DAGGER, SPLIT-AND-RULE
POLITICS, THE POLITICS OF SECRECY (FOR INSTANCE, HILARY’S
HESITANCE TO EXPLAIN THE DELAY REGARDING HER TAX RERTURNS AND
THE $5 MILLION SHE DONATED TOWARD HER CAMPAIGN),  THE POLITICS
OF MUD-SLINGING AND FEAR-MONGERING, AND SPREADING PARANOIA.
Also, These people KEEP REPEATING Hilary’s line that she is
the more experienced of the two Democratic candidates. Wake
up, my friends! She was only the First Lady. She was in the
background. How many treaties and agreements did she sign?
None. SHE IS NO COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, HER ADVISORS ARE and would
be. BESIDES, HAVE YOU NOT HAD ENOUGH OF BUSH’S POLICY OF FEAR,
ALREADY? IS THIS NOT ANOTHER PAGE OUT OF THE SAME BOOK?  WHAT
FOREIGN POLICY EXPERINCE DOES HILARY HAVE? REMEMBER, SHE WAS
ONE OF THOSE WHO VOTED FOR THE INVASION OF IRAQ. How soon
people forget all the mess her husband created when in office.
How could you be certain that Bill (ONE OF THE CHIEF
PROPONENTS OF NAFTA) would stay in the background? These
people are relics of the past. Experience means nothing when
priorities are in stark contrast to what country is asking
for. Look at the current Administration, surely most of the
current politicians are intelligent and quite experienced, yet
the economy is in tatters and our boys are bogged down in the
hell-hole of Iraq. Please, Get real! AND IF SOME ARE STILL
FONDLY REMEMBERING THE GOOD OLD 90’S, ENJOY THE MEMORIES, BUT
TRY AND MOVE ON. WE LIVE IN A WHOLE NEW ERA, A NEW WORLD
ORDER. THE PRICE OF GAS WAS LOW THEN  BECAUSE THE PRICE OF OIL
WAS LOW, AND CHINA WAS NOT BUSY GOBBLING UP MOST OF OIL
PRODUCTION THE WAY IT DOES NOW, PUSHING UP OIL PRICES THROUGH
THE ROOF. SO LET’S NOT BECOME ALL NOSTALGIC AND LOOK AT
REALITY THROUGH A CLEAR PAIR OF GLASSES. I am white,
professional and successful; however, i am trying to see
things beyond this tiny cocoon i call personal life, because i
strongly believe that there could be a better future for all
as long as we put aside our differences and prejudices. ON THE
OTHER HAND, OBAMA IS THE VOICE OF THE YOUTH, AND LET US NOT
FORGET THAT THE FUTURE BELONGS TO THEM. REPLACE FEAR AND
NEGATIVITY WITH HOPE AND OPTIMISM. IT IS NOT OFTEN THAT WE
HEAR A VOICE THAT REMINDS PEOPLE OF TWO OF THE GREAT
SCIO-POLITICAL FIGURES AMERICA HAS EVER KNOWN, J.F KENNEDY AND
MARTIN LUTHER KING. HAVE WE HAD NOT ENOUGH OF THOSE TIRED AND
OVER-USED MESSAGES THROWN AT US BY THE WASHINGTON
ESTABLISHMENT AND THE MEDIA? OBAMA IS MORE THAN JUST LOVELY
WORDS AND WARM FUZZY FEELINGS. HE IS ABOUT CHANGE. WE NEED A
MAN OF VISION, NOT JUST A COMANDER-IN-CHIEF. OUR YOUTH NEED
HOPE FOR A BETTER AMERICA, AND THEY HAVE SEEN THAT IN OBAMA.
THE FUTURE IS THEIRS. GIVE THAT VOICE A CHANCE.GIVE CHANGE A
CHANCE.IT IS TIME TO LEARN FROM OUR PAST LESSONS AND STOP
DIVIDING AND START TRULY UNITING TOGETHER. DIVIDED, WE’ LL
FALL...again!
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ORDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
235. K&R Thanks n/t
:kick:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
243. Poem for Ferraro and her defenders: For a Lady I Know by Countee Cullen

For a Lady I Know by Countee Cullen

She even thinks that up in heaven
Her class lies late and snores,
while poor black cherubs rise at seven
to do celestial chores.


K&R
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
244. There are whites who have wanted someone to break through the
white Christian male 'habit'. Be it Native American, Black American, Mexican American, female, person of a non-Christian faith, Lebonese American - all those who have been targeted with injustices by whites and each other.

We are all not Ferraro's. But, I'm not sure she is all that bad, I'd excuse some of her mistake to confusion and foolishness or the horrible risk she took if she fully knew what she was doing.

A majority of Dems didn't blink. Because they want equal opportunity. But Obama also needs to take grand care. There is a lesson for him here. Especially his staff. I am turned off by an eye for and eye retaliation no matter which race, gender, or religion. In addition, he has a tremendous burden and he must think more about the example he sets - because of and possibly exclusively for all the youth who he has won - so far. Everyone will know in an instant how they feel if he does not consider the military for defense, but goes with the corporations who want to make war especially the invasion, pillage, and plunder wars.

Don't want to say more.
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indimuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
245. “The reason she’s a U.S. senator, the reason she’s a candidate for president,
The Hillary Standard
I found this interesting and an appropriate piece considering all the Ferraro chatter.
Remembering Chris Mathews statements about Hillary ::: And he still has seat at MSNBC! Why? Why is Keith O trying to smear Hillary...He should be attacking Chris Mathews.

Good read::::

<<<SNIP>>>

The Hillary Standard
January 23rd, 2008 · No Comments
She’s running for president, people, not Prom Queen.

This piece ran in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Huffington Post and LA Daily News.

My grandparents just celebrated their 60th wedding anniversary. They got hitched right after Grampa got back from the war. They’re both educated professionals. They’re proud Americans. We come from a long line of Southern Democrats. My grandparents, the mavericks, are first generation lifelong Republicans. Grampa has a portrait of Ronald Reagan in his bathroom. Not in the place that would make ‘trickle down’ literal - let alone actually manifest. The portrait is near the sink, where he brushes his teeth. Every morning he wakes up, and The Gipper is proudly smiling at him.

With that being said, for my own amusement, the other day I asked Grama what she thought about Hillary Clinton. Now it may have been a bad cell phone connection, but I think I heard my otherwise sweet little Grama actually growl before saying, ”That woman.” She said disapprovingly. “Ambitious.”

Which is EXACTLY what Clinton basher Christopher Hitchens says about Hillary. He notes her ‘overweening ambition’ in his otherwise thin ‘case’ (think grudge) against her in his latest Slate.com article.

With all due respect to Grama, there has to be something dark and twisted about the human psyche that only wants people that don’t want power to actually get it. Or maybe its that men are go-getters and women are ambitious. Or maybe it’s just Hillary. She has turned into a black light for Americans. Highlighting our dandruff and other things we would care not to have mentioned. Like the fact that we have no restraint when it comes to our viciousness toward her and can‘t come up with a good reason for it.

Her critics are starting to get really freaky with vehemence. People are starting to foam at the mouth. Chris Matthews, for example, was starting to look like Old Yeller right before they put him down.

For those of you not following the election that close because your more humane hobby of setting ants on fire with a magnifying glass is taking up most of your time, Chris Matthews, host of MSNBC’s Hardball, on Morning Joe the day after the New Hampshire primary he said, “The reason she’s a U.S. senator, the reason she’s a candidate for president, the reason she may be a front-runner is her husband messed around.” Then he went on to say,” She didn’t win on merit. She won because everybody felt, ‘my God this woman stood up under public humiliation’ - that’s what happened.”

So it’s not that voters really dig name recognition (cough - Schwarzenegger). It’s that she got a host of sympathy votes? When has Hillary Clinton ever - ever gotten sympathy? Her enemies are so quick to hit below the belt that neutrality is the best I’ve seen for her.

Matthews later defended his comments and said that he was not sharing an ‘opinion’ just historical interpretation. It’s like saying that it was not eggplant - it was aubergine. It’s really the same thing.

Then after what was a week’s long outrage for his remarks he finally gave up. On his show Hardball he said, “Saying that Senator Clinton got where she’s got simply because her husband did what he did to her is just as callous, and I can see now, it comes across just as nasty, worse yet, just as dismissive.” That was big of him, but that comment was hardly isolated. He never thought that calling Clinton supporters “castratos in the eunuch chorus” was nasty and dismissive?

Politics is a blood sport, but even blood sports have sportsmanship. But not when it comes to Hillary. Back when her husband was running for president, back in 1992, a television reporter from Columbus, Ohio asked her, “You know, some people think of you as an inspiring female attorney mother, and other people think of you as the overbearing yuppie wife from hell. How would you describe yourself?”

You may be wondering the answer to that question. I’ll quote from A Time to Kill, “Now imagine she’s white.” Think of that question to anyone other than Hillary. Could you imagine another first lady hopeful, on the campaign trail EVER being asked that? Could you see anyone asking Barbra, Nancy or Laura that?? Hillary’s rapport with the press started way back then. Way back then in what the press dubbed “The Year of the Woman”.

But just the word ‘ambition’ used in the pejorative is baffling. “I disagree with her wanting to do anything with more prestige than she has right now.” In other words, she needs to know her place. And because she doesn’t know her place - don’t hold anything back. It’s not regular criticism. It’s like a reprimand and to used Matthews’ words ‘public humiliation’ for not being more demure.

It’s as if she’s not liked because she’s a know-it-all. She’s running for president - we want a president to KNOW IT ALL.

It’s not even a double standard - it’s a special standard - just for Hillary Clinton. It’s the Hillary Standard. And who can hold up to the Hillary Standard? No one. Not even Hillary.

It’s a reality show where otherwise, rational, intelligent people are showing their prejudices and blinding contempt. It’s tired. It’s boring. And it’s not discourse. It reminds me of the ironic quote by Voltaire, “O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.” Done.
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racaulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
246. I'm a white man, and I agree with you 100%!
I'm a little to late to recommend this thread, but I'll be glad to kick it, and I'm most definitely bookmarking it!

Thank you for this brilliant post!!!

:applause:
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
255. Great post Effie
Wish I could still recommend it.
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
256. That was absolutely beautiful!!!!!! I don't think anyone could lay it out any better.
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From The Left Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
257. She's Old and Stuck in a Time Warp. She's 25 Years Behind the Curve
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