Honest question: If Obama was white would he be where he is today?

[Greenwood]

Would he be, possibly, about to become the Dem nominee? Would he have been elected in Illinois? Would he have all the votes and support he has?

Again, an honest question. Too many in America are too scared to DARE mention race for fear it will be construed as being racist. That is sad. Very sad.

Hence, my honest question.

[helderheid]

1. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5038728

[OhioBlue]

2. I forget who said it last night

on MSNBC, but if he were white and came from a well connected family, he would be JFK.

[Tyler Durden]

25. Nope.

JFK had 4 years in the US HOUSE, 8 years in the US SENTATE, won a PULITZER for HIS book, "Profiles in Courage," about somebody OTHER than himself.

Obama couldn't be JFK if he changed his NAME to JFK.

Lightweight.


SHIT. I broke my boycott without even noticing where I was posting. FUCK. NEVER AGAIN.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

63. Hmmm. 12 years elected experience?

and Obama has 4 years in the senate and 8 years in the Il legislature for a total of, gasp 12 years.. and he has two best selling books

[pnwmom]

64. Not to mention his military service. n/t

[angie_love]

66. Fine he'd be Abe Lincoln.

[Drachasor]

70. I'm afraid Lincoln had a lot less experience than Obama!

One State Senate term only.

[angie_love]

73. And look at the president he turned out to be.

[Drachasor]

75. A lot worse than that extremely experienced Buchanan who was just before him (j/k)

Buchanan actually usually wins the context for worst President in American history. He completely failed to do anything to stop the South from leaving or arming themselves by stealing from the military (among his numerous other failures). He had a ton of experience under his belt too.

[sueragingroz]

81. ROFLMAO - btw love your sign-in name.

[misanthrope]

98. There's still debate about the authorship of JFK's book**nm

**

[misanthrope]

99. No, he wouldn't...

...unless his father was involved in organized crime.

[IndianaJones]

3. no. nt.

[tyne]

6. He would have

had it wrapped up completely after Iowa. Guaranteed.

[Jamastiene]

4. Possibly. It depends on circumstances. n/t

[anonymeme]

95. Absolutely True. NO ONE Has Any Way of Knowing BUT Everyone's Entitled to Their Own Opinion...

Absolutely True. NO ONE Has Any Way of Knowing BUT Everyone's Entitled to Their Own Opinion... Including Geraldine Ferraro.

[Colobo]

5. Yes. Next question.

[gasperc]

7. remember when people wouldn't vote for someone because they were black

now we have a guy getting dissed because people are voting for him. And it's come easy to him, like it's cool, like it's sooo easy to win with a name like Barack Hussien Obama. My head hurts.

[Armstead]

8. A meaningless question...But the answer is he may well be

It's kind of a meaningless question, because anyone's life experiences are based on the totality of who they are.

But in general, I'd say if he were the same person but were white, he'd stand a good chance of getting where he is now based on his intelligence, charisma, leadership qualities and ambition.

[book_worm]

9. Why not?

[thereismore]

10. Yes. Any other honest questions or concerns? nt

[Barack_America]

11. Nope. He'd officially be the nominee right now.

A big part of his losing Ohio and Texas was white voters balking from actually nominating a black man. And I wouldn't be surprised to see that a factor in PA as well.

If he were a white man, the leads and momentum he currently has would be enough.

[olkaz]

12. Question.

Show me a politician of any persuasion, of any race, of any gender, that has motivated people as much as Obama.

Of course his being black has nothing to do with it. This meme is racist and stupid.

[Captain Hilts]

13. He wouldn't be getting 9 out of 10 black votes in GA, SC, VA, MD, MS, etc. nt

[NYCGirl]

17. Didn't Kerry get just about that number? Or Gore? Or any Democrat? NT

[Captain Hilts]

21. In the national, not the primaries. nt

[scheming daemons]

28. And he also wouldn't be LOSING 25% of the white vote simply because of his color...

...if exit polls are to be believed.


It is a blessing *AND* a curse..... and the two offset each other.

[Captain Hilts]

60. Yes and no. It's better to get 9 out of 10 votes of 50% of primary voters...

than to lose 25% of 50%.

It varies.

[woolldog]

90. I guess that's why he won Wyoming?

in a landslide?

[misanthrope]

100. Amen**nm

**

[JBoris]

14. He is where he is in spite of being black.. n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

15. These hypotheticals are incredibly silly

The answer to your question is: who the fuck knows?

If Obama were white, he would be an entirely different person and have faced an entirely different set of circumstances. He could have wound up being a professional chef and having his own show on Food TV for all we know.

[gristy]

34. Exactly

The hypothetical question in the OP has no value.

[wiggs]

37. Silly question that furthers destructive line of thinking and

tells us more about the posters than the subject.

[Bill McBlueState]

69. yeah, it's like asking,

"If Obama had four arms, would he be where he is today?"

Who knows?

[whatchamacallit]

16. The same can be asked about a two term first lady

[Coexist]

18. yes. and he is 1/2 white.

[TwilightGardener]

19. It's impossible to say--you can't separate who he is from his skin color.

Maybe he worked so hard, and achieved so much, BECAUSE he's black and had to prove himself more than his white counterparts? Maybe he is a unifier BECAUSE he's black, and grew up in different cultures with a multi-cultural family, and hates to see people divided on such issues? He is a bright, accomplished, and impressive man. I preferred him over Edwards not because of skin color, but because I believed he's shown better judgment on a host of issues in comparing their Senate records, and I think Obama comes off as more genuine, and more adept politically. He's not being "promoted" by running for President--he is simply offering himself, no different than Hillary or Edwards.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. Would Hillary be where she is if she'd married a guy named Clarence who was a plumber?

Or, if she'd been raised a Muslim?

Would Eisenhower become president if he'd been a sergeant in WWII?

All sorts of things combine to make presidential candidates.

BTW I'm not a fan of either Clinton or Obama.

[sfam]

85. great response! nt

[featherman]

22. Would a charismatic, young white Senator from a major state with

a name like Charles Edward Taylor eloquently delivering a message of hope and change and touching hearts around the country be in the same position?

No, he would be the obvious and presumptive nominee at this point.

[MethuenProgressive]

24. Like John Edwards?

:shrug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. John Edwards, who the DLC had to destroy first, who came in

2nd in Iowa but was treated as an also-ran. He scared them more than Obama did because they couldn't believe a black candidate could actually make the grade, so HE was the one they torpedoed.

Yeah. Like John Edwards.

[yardwork]

31. Correct. He would be coronated by now.

Hell, an old guy named Ronald Reagan was coronated.

[bullimiami]

23. wtf kind of stupid question is that. he is the sum of his parts.

would hillary be where she is if she had a penis. would mccain?

why do we play along with these stupid games.
would bush have become the president if he werent the gold plated spawn of the elite? would he be if he werent an insane sociopath?

obama is who he is. he is black, he is white, he is the sum of his parts. it is like that for everyone.

[scheming daemons]

26. Would Hillary if she were male? Would McCain, if he were not a former POW?

One's life story and biography reflect on people.


If John McCain had been a better pilot, and didn't get shot down and spend 5+ years in a prison camp.... would ANY of us have heard of him?


If Hillary Rodham had not met Bill Clinton.... would she have EVER been in a position to run for Senator in NY - a state she never lived in before 2000?

Would we have ever HEARD of Hillary Rodham?



Your question is ridiculous. Who a candidate *IS* is what drives their appeal!


Would Ronald Reagan have won two landslide contests if he was never an actor?

[MethuenProgressive]

27. He'd still have the HillaryHater support.

They wouldn't care what color he is, as long as he's not her.

[yardwork]

29. John Edwards was in the same position four years ago, and he's white.

John Edwards had even less experience as a politician than Obama, and he made it to the VP nominee slot.

I think that Obama's success is due to his charisma. He is a good speaker. He excites and motivates people. He's also very centrist in his policies. He appeals to moderate Republicans and Independents. The other, more progressive candidates, were dismissed as being "too liberal."

Being black is not an advantage to being elected president of the U.S. We've never elected a black president. Being a white male is clearly an advantage.

[helderheid]

32. great post.

[Occam Bandage]

30. President.

[SoonerPride]

33. Yes.

It is about the message of change and hope, not his skin color.

[Flabbergasted]

35. Are you asking if his skin color was an advantage...of course not.

[gravity]

36. He would be running for president

Race and gender, even if you assume they are helpful (I think are more of a barrier personally), only get you so far.

To be an effective candidate, you have to have the knowledge and drive to win it. You have to know how to work the political system, and inspire people to support you over the other candidates. Gender, race, and other circumstances can determine how you run your campaign, but it isn't the factor which makes you who you are.

If Obama was white, he would have ran his campaign a little differently, but he would have still gotten to the same place because he is the master at playing politics. Hillary is very good too at the political game, but I think Obama one ups her.

[Emillereid]

38. Yes, I believe he would be - what is attractive about Obama is his message of hope,

his willingness to take on the entrenched powers in Washington, his ability to inspire and his even, unflappable temperament.

[durrrty libby]

39. Simple truthful answer. NO

[rucky]

54. oops...

but go with it, anyways, because it's about as coherent as any other Ferraro defense I've heard so far.

[tabasco]

96. You can't handle the truth.

The truth is that your candidate is losing. Rather than face up to it, you make reprehensible comments, which only reflect on yourself.

[Guava Jelly]

40. Yes

:)

[rateyes]

41. He is white, isn't he?

The wonderful woman who gave birth to him was. How much Anglo-Saxon blood has to flow through one's veins to be white? And, if just a few of one's ancestors were black, what percentage of that heritage has to be yours to be considered black? Because, truth be told, very few of us are "pure blooded" anything.

When are we going to see that we are all members of the same race? It's called the human race.

[Dinger]

42. I Don't Know

I do remember at the 2004 democratic Convention that he spoke, and his possible candidacy was "started" at that point. I have a recording of that somewhere. I'll have tom check it out. Anybody have the transcript?

[rox63]

43. Yes - In fact he'd be ahead of where he is

He's had to work harder to get ahead because of his race. So he'd probably have had the nomination wrapped up over a month ago if he was white.

[BeyondGeography]

44. He wouldn't be in Pennsylvania explaining to white people for the umpteenth time

why they should vote for him.

He'd be the nominee by now.

[shraby]

45. Honest answer. Yes. He has a message

that resonates with people and the rare ability to inspire. His skin color is immaterial.

[elehhhhna]

47. "Geez, Napoleon, there's no way anybody could ever know that"

[AngryAmish]

48. He would probably have a hard time winning his specific state senate seat

[theboss]

49. Of course not. Black men have it easy in this country.

As a white guy with an Ivy education, I am constantly blocked in my rise to the top by these young black men who get every advantage.

Frankly, I am sick of it.

[rucky]

50. Even if he got into Harvard on affirmative action...

He EXCELLED there. And that opened more doors for him.

I think Obama is a great success story!

[Captain Hilts]

61. Yes he is. nt

[Catherine Vincent]

51. Obama is the Great Black Hope!

:evilgrin:

[frazzled]

52. Absolutely: just look at first-termer John Edwards in 2004.

And did you ask then, "Would John Edwards be where he is today if he were black?" I don't think so.

[moobu2]

53. No

[Eric Condon]

55. Honest question: If your aunt had balls would she be your uncle?

The two questions are pretty much one and the same.

By the way, hi everybody, I'm new here. I've been reading this site for years, and I figured I'd go ahead and join up.

[Blue_Roses]

56. you used one of your 3 for this post?

:shrug:

O-kay :eyes:

[BigDDem]

57. Could he have beaten Alan Keyes?

[Carrieyazel]

58. No, he would not be where he is TODAY. But prior to last year, the answer would be yes.

His successes all his life including his election to Senate, were not because of race. But after he declared for President, race has mattered greatly.

That is the reality.

[treehuggnlibrul]

59. I believe he would.

While I'll vote for Clinton if she becomes the nominee, I think there are a large number of Americans who are tired of a Bush or a Clinton in the Whitehouse. They're tired of the old guard and want someone new. That, coupled with Obama's oratory skills, and his vote on Iraq, his charisma, his community organizing experience (and a campaign organization that is AMAZING) are helping him. And in some ways, Clinton herself is helping him. People are so bloody tired of the crap, and I think (though I loved Bill as a president) that his comments and her campaign have pushed people toward Obama. I also feel her campaign hasn't capitalized on her strengths.

I believe that the fact that he's black has helped him some, but if it were just his skin color that was winning this race, then why didn't previous black candidates do just as well as Obama is doing?

I'm a 44-year-old white woman, and race wasn't a factor for me. Nor was gender.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

62. No..

Hillary would have had to drop out after Ohio as her race baiting tactics there would have been no use! So were Obama not black he would be the democratic nominee right now..

[endarkenment]

65. Four months ago he was too white.

By the way he actually is neither white nor black, and actually those distinctions are ridiculous anyway.

[Blu Dahlia]

67. He would have the nomination sewn up

People wouldn't constantly be raising the bar for what constitutes a win.

[julialnyc]

68. Yes..... or further

Here is a guy with a first name one letter off from the guy behind 9/11 a middle name the same as the dictator in Iraq and a background that was anything, but apple pie. You have to be very talented to get around that obstacle. Right now the color of his skin does make people hopeful that we are in a better time and have gotten passed certain prejudices, but by no means did it get him there

[cloudythescribbler]

71. If Hillary were male, she wouldn't have married Bill Clinton and wouldn't be a leading pol

These kinds of speculations are inherently silly, and often divisive. It is unfortunately telling about Ferraro that (although I didn't hear about it at the time that I remember) she made similar comments about Jesse Jackson in the 80s.

Ferraro is a good illustration of why the Democrats haven't even risen to the task of making New Columbia a state, despite votes there to do so.

Q -- If Fiorello LaGuardia were an Armenian (both parents), would he have become mayor of NYC?

[itcfish]

72. He Would Be

in the same place as Edwards or Biden. Obama is a novelty.

[goletian]

74. yes. historically, black is not the color of privilege.

let me as a question: if she was never bill's first lady, would she have gotten this far? doubtful.

[DearAbby]

76. Take a look at who is sitting in the White House today

the idiot had/has absolutely no experience, how in the hell did he make it so far...he was WHITE and had a daddy with lots of money. Do you believe *ush would be where he is today if he were black?

Obama had to overcome many obstacles, coming to be where he is today. He is not black, he is BI-RACIAL. The mixed kid with a funny name. Walk a mile in those shoes. See how far it takes you.

You honestly believe everything was handed to him because of the color of his skin? Being where he is today shows me an exceptional man. A man with character, strength.

[yardwork]

77. Excellent post. I wish I could k&r several posts in this thread, including yours.

[Johnny__Motown]

78. He would be even further ahead

[mrreowwr_kittty]

79. No. The primary would be over and he would have won by now.

Without the Muslim emails and the racebaiting, Clinton wouldn't be as close as she is now.

[CreekDog]

80. If he were a martian he would be in space

next question?

[Indy Lurker]

82. IF being black is a huge asset to Obama

Why did Hillary's ads made him blacker?

[npincus]

83. ridiculous. Where would YOU be if YOU were white/black/Asian?

Where would Edwards be if he were black, or a woman, or a radish? Silly.

[theredpen]

84. He's in Chicago today

I'm almost certain that white men are permitted in Chicago, so he could be where he is today. I know for a fact that not all white men are in Chicago today, so statistically, just going on race and gender, there's only a small probability that he'd been in Chicago specifically.

If you take "where he is today" to mean "North America" your probability increases dramatically. If you take "where he is today" to be "The Milky Way Galaxy" then I can say with certainty that yes, he'd be where he is today if he were a white man.

Do I win something?

[sueragingroz]

86. The elephant in the room: White Guilt..

I was googling the concept and came across a very interesting essay in Harpers that was written in 1999 by Shelby Steele.

What is white guilt? It is not a personal sense of remorse over past wrongs. White guilt is literally a vacuum of moral authority in matters of race, equality, and opportunity that comes from the association of mere white skin with America's historical racism. It is the stigmatization of whites and, more importantly, American institutions with the sin of racism. Under this stigma white individuals and American institutions must perpetually prove a negative--that they are not racist--to gain enough authority to function in matters of race, equality, and opportunity. If they fail to prove the negative, they will be seen as racists. Political correctness, diversity policies, and multiculturalism are forms of deference that give whites and institutions a way to prove the negative and win reprieve from the racist stigma.

<snip>

The real difference between my parents and myself was that they protested in an age of white racism and I protested in an age of white guilt. They were punished; I was rewarded. By my time, moral authority around race had become a great and consuming labor for America. Everything from social programs to the law, from the color of TV sitcom characters to the content of school curricula, from college admissions to profiling for terrorists--every aspect of our culture--now must show itself redeemed of the old national sin. Today you cannot credibly run for president without an iconography of white guilt: the backdrop of black children, the Spanish-language phrases, the word "compassion" to separate conservatism from its associations with racism.

So then here you are, a black American living amidst all this. Every institution you engage--the government, universities, corporations, public and private schools, philanthropies, churches--faces you out of a deficit of moral authority. Your race is needed everywhere. How could you avoid the aggressions, and even the bigotries, of white guilt? What institution could you walk into without having your color tallied up as a credit to the institution? For that matter, what political party or ideological direction could you pursue without your race being plundered by that party or ideology for moral authority?

Because blacks live amidst such hunger for the moral authority of their race, we embraced protest as a permanent identity in order to capture the fruits of white guilt on an ongoing basis. Again, this was our first fall by our own hand. Still, it is hard to imagine any group of individuals coming out of four centuries of oppression and not angling their identity toward whatever advantage seemed available. White guilt held out the promise of a preferential life in recompense for past injustice, and the protest identity seemed the best way to keep that promise alive.

An obvious problem here is that we blacks fell into a group identity that has absolutely no other purpose than to collect the fruits of white guilt. And so the themes of protest--a sense of grievance and victimization--evolved into a sensibility, an attitude toward the larger world that enabled us always and easily to feel the grievance whether it was there or not. Protest became the mask of identity, because it defined us in a way that kept whites "on the hook." Today the angry rap singer and Jesse Jackson and the black-studies professor are all joined by an unexamined devotion to white guilt.

<snip>

James Baldwin once wrote: "What Europe still gives an American is the sanction, if one can accept it, to become oneself." If America now gives this sanction to most citizens, its institutions still fiercely deny it to blacks. And this society will never sanction blacks in this way until it drops all the mechanisms by which it tries to appease white guilt. Guilt can be a very civilizing force, but only when it is simply carried as a kind of knowledge. Efforts to appease or dispel it will only engage the society in new patterns of dehumanization against the same people who inspired guilt in the first place. This will always be true.

I strongly suggest that you read the entire article before you make any snap judgements:

http://www.cir-usa.org/articles/156.html

Here's the irony: Obama has been seen to be trying to transcend race - make the campaign about hope and change and a new way of dealing in politics. He should be commended for that.

However, when you look at it on its face - the fact that he is on the verge of becoming the democratic nominee for president as a first term senator with a very skimpy resume and some dubious dealings with a known influence peddlar who is currently on trial - you have to ask yourself - how can this be? How did this happen?

The question is valid. The answer will differ depending on your perspective.

IMHO, white guilt is a poison in this election and it has no place in american politics. But it's there nevertheless. It's the white elephant in the corner and it's hurting Obama and his campaign in the long run more than it's helping him. That is what I believe that Gerry Ferraro was trying to get across before she was slammed by David Axelrod - a white man - as a racist in his daily conference call with the press. http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/03/11/obama-camp-responds-to-geraldine-ferraros-comments/

Gerry Ferraro has a perspective. Voicing it does not make her a racist. At least not IMHO.

Shelby Steele has a perspective. Does that make him a racist?

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue.

Note for the record: Back in the day, I was an out of the closet white lesbian woman and I was told that I got a summer job at my law school's legal aid program because of affirmative action because one of the professors on the selection committee was a lesbian and she made the argument that I should get the position based on my sexual orientation. I know what that feels like.

I also know what it feels like to have my boss not want to be in the same room with me alone anymore after he finds out that I'm gay.

I'm not equating GBLT issues with issues with race, but I do identify with oppression and affirmative action because I have experienced it on some level since I chose to come out of the closet back in 1992.

I live it every day in a country where homophobia is tolerated at all levels of society.

And I support Hillary - not because she is a woman, and not because of McClurkin, but because I honestly truly believe that she is the most qualified for this really nasty job that I can't believe anyone is fighting over. I have always believed that she was the brains of the operation the first time around and my wanting her to win doesn't make me a racist.

I will not waste any more time trying to prove that negative on this board.

[Radical Activist]

87. If Obama was white Hillary would have dropped out by now.

She lost 14 of the last 16 states.

[Cha]

88. Yes, he would.

Does that answer your question?

[roseBudd]

89. He would still have charisma. Would he have a different persective because he would not have been

a black teenager in a predominantly white school, city, state?

Probably. He is who he is because he is a biracial man, which in the USA is really just black.

[BklynChick]

91. he wouldn't be who he is if he was white.

[tabasco]

92. Good leaders rise to the top no matter what their color.

Your strident ignorance is on display for all to see.

[redherring]

93. Absolutely not

He has almost no experience. He's been a senator for 4 years, 2 of which went down the drain running for presidential nomination. Hillary has more than that.

[Tennessee Gal]

94. No, Absolutely not.

That is why I do not support him.

He is not ready.

[Blue_In_AK]

97. I personally don't see him as being any more "special"

than any other politician. He gives good speeches, but everybody talks about "change" whenever an election rolls around. I think he's a good Democrat, but no better or worse than any number of other good Democrats. I'm just not all that impressed and haven't been. I don't care for Hillary either, but either one is worlds better than John McCain.