I think that Florida and Michigan need to be counted, and I'm an Obama supporter.

[FightTheRight89]

Even though it may decrease his delegate lead, it's going to be real blow to his legitimacy as the nominee if the two states aren't counted, even if they did bold-facedly break the rules set by the DNC.

[Changenow]

1. At least the Hillary supporters

finally got the word that she is opposed to any redo.

Why not just give Hillary the nomination, why have any elections?

[BearSquirrel2]

8. A redo would allow Obama to take a majority ...

Even if Obama lost the redo, he could still get enough pledged delegates to take a majority and end Hillary's bid to steal the nomination. Of course she is against any revote.

[mmonk]

2. It doesn't appear Florida reps know what they want.

They can't seem to agree on anything when it's in their court so to apeak. What does the party in Michigan want?

[redqueen]

10. I thought I read they were planning a caucus...

but I'm not positive.

edit: 2 sources form a quick search - seems pretty iffy.

http://www.tcbusinessnews.com/newsflash_detail.php?recordID=397&edit=true
http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/5119

[mmonk]

13. Wow, that's a switch.

[redqueen]

20. I edited it to include a couple links...

looks like something's maybe being talked about, but noting's definite.

[scheming daemons]

3. They will be.... after their revote...

...

[BearSquirrel2]

4. The only way to count Michigan and Florida ...

The only way to count Michigan and Florida is if they actually elect delegates under Democratic party rules. There ARE NO FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN DELEGATES!!! They violated the rules, there were no campaigns. I could sponsor my own little election and CLAIM that these were delegates and they would be just as valid as those of Florida and Michigan.

They need to select delegates under the rules. Primaries or caucuses. Pick one or there is no representation.

[pbca]

5. People have tried

they were offered the opportunity to have legal primaries and they rejected the idea. They are out but they have no one to blame but themselves.

MI and FL chose not to have legitimate primaries, they chose not to be counted.

[DrDan]

12. remember it is the party leaders that made these decisions - not the voters!!!!!!

The voters did not reject the idea.

The voters did not choose to not have a "legitimate primary"

The voters did not choose to not be counted.

The party leaders made these decisions - at the expense of the voters. And as one of these voters - I AM PISSED!

[OhioBlue]

15. you should write your State party leaders. n/t

[DrDan]

17. sure - but in the meantime - the voters got screwed!

[OhioBlue]

22. yes, they screwed you over

so make them fix it.

[WilyWondr]

21. Representative Democracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Representative democracy is a form of government founded on the principles of popular sovereignty by the people's representatives. The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representatives—i.e., not necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances. It is often contrasted with direct democracy, where representatives are absent or are limited in power as proxy representatives.

The voters of FL and MI had their representatives make this change. Have you heard about all of the recall elections in FL and MI?

Me neither.

The people wanted their primary moved and it was moved by their representatives. End of story.

[DrDan]

40. you are so confused . . .

[pbca]

23. Ok, it was the party leaders

But they are the ones that make such decisions - just like the government makes decisions for the country. MI and FL should definitely replace the party leaders but I don't know what can be done to fix this year.

[LakeSamish706]

6. I disagree, it has nothing to do with Obama or his campaigne... It was a ...

decision that was agreed to by all those involved and they knew the consequences of there actions.... It should stand...

[DrDan]

14. wrong

it was not a decision that was agreed to by all those involved.

I am involved. It was not my decision - it was the decision of the party leaders!

[TwilightGardener]

26. So? Get involved and get rid of your party leaders. It's their fault.

There are PLENTY of states that hold late contests and don't normally have a say in the process. FL amd MI aren't speshul. They blew it, and now they're just as irrelevant as places like Oregon and SD.

[DrDan]

33. and Nebraska

sorry - saw on your profile you were a Cornhusker.

I was born in St. Paul - just north of Grand Island. Moved away when I was in 6th grade - but have been a rabid Husker football fan all my life.

GBR!

(on edit - cannot spell rabid)

[TwilightGardener]

35. ...

:hi:

[DrDan]

7. I have a real problem with any rule that strips a party member of their vote

I know it's just a primary and the party can establish the rules - but, to take away the voice of their party members is just not right. One of the cornerstones of this party is equality - particularly when it comes to voting and elections. Then to establish a penalty that removes that right is wrong - praticularly when the disenfranchisement comes via the actions of the party leaders - not the ones being disenfranchised.

I agree with you - it will taint the nomination. It will cost votes in the GE. It will lead to some very serious dissatisfaction among the D voters in FL and MI. Dean needs to get this resolved.

[mkultra]

11. I think that when FL and MI

tried to strong arm the DNC into allowing them to go early, they shouldnt be suprised when they get it flipped back on them.


There actions are fascist in nature as they are attempting to force their way into more power.

[sabbat hunter]

25. if you have a problem

with what the party leaders did, then get people to run against them.

Dean has already offered a way to resolve it, hold new primaries.

If D voters in MI and florida stay home over this and McCain is elected as a result, they will have only themselves to blame.

[mkultra]

9. i disagree as well.

you know what they say about hitting your head against a wall.....It feels real good when you stop.

There are multiple applications of this metaphor in this case.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

16. I'm with you. The voters can't help it if their leaders are boneheads.

[navarth]

18. Michigan voter here. I disagree.

The state parties fucked up. The rules are set. It was a dumb move. We're done here. Forget about it.

I want to say this once more: You CAN'T seat the Michigan delegates. It's UNFAIR. Obama was NOT on the ticket. Neither was Edwards, who I wanted to vote for. I wonder what the race would look like if JE had won Michigan? Hmm?

Obama followed the rules and he wasn't on the ballot. You CANNOT seat Michigan delegates without being TOTALLY unfair. This is beyond ridiculous.

Want to re-vote Michigan? Fine, I'll vote again. But not with my tax dollars. No sir.

Sorry if that hurts any feelings.

[eissa]

24. Great points

ITA. The voices of MI and FL should be heard, no question about that. I would love a re-vote because I know at this stage Obama would definitely get more delegates out of it. But I don't get this attitude of giving the DNC the finger and then expecting them to pay for their defiance. The states' party leaders are to blame for screwing the voters -- their anger should be directed at them and not anyone else.

[Tarc]

28. We don't do collective punishment here

The voters of two critical states should not be disenfranchised because of their state party's actions. Both should just hold a revote and get it over with, and if someone doesn't like their tax dollars paying for it, then they can go pound sand for all I care.

[navarth]

31. I don't feel punished.

A revote is ok with me. I guess I could give tax dollars for it, but my state is in financial trouble right now and it doesn't sound affordable.

I don't think Florida needs a revote do they? I mean everybody was on the ballot, so it doesn't seem unfair.

I don't think it would feel good to pound sand, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed there.

[redqueen]

19. Seat 50/50, or re-vote. They can't be seated as is. (nt)

[Recursion]

27. IIRC, when Florida and Michigan changed their dates, Hillary was already coronated

...and had been declared the nominee by the fawning press for several months. Kind of ironic how much more influence they would have had if they kept their dates where they were.

[stray cat]

29. even if only Hillary was on the ballet in MI

and many people in both states didn't bother to vote because they were told nothing was going to count? Its like telling students not to bother taking an exam because it was practice and wouldn't count and then counting it like a regular exam.

[bunnies]

30. Allowing states to break DNC rules sets a dangerous precedent.

DNC rules would be worthless if FL and MI are allowed to count.

[TBF]

36. I agree - the DNC should hold their ground.

[democrattotheend]

32. I could accept counting Florida, but something has to be done about Michigan

I'd be okay with awarding him all of the uncommitted delegates, but I don't think that's possible under the rules. I'm fine with a revote in Michigan or a caucus. And I have a strategy for how he can win it.

[NoBorders]

37. Same here.

I could accept seating FL delegates, even though it is an unfair advantage for Clinton. But MI is different. Either way, it's not enough to put her over the top in delegates.

[ORDagnabbit]

34. so as an obama supporter you're okay with michigan counting even though he wasnt on the ticket?

[FightTheRight89]

39. Certainly not as the delegations stand right now.

There needs to be some compromise, some sort of revote...or I feel the Hillary crowd will throw a shitfit and not accept Obama.

[Ino]

38. I don't know why a state...

I don't know why a state can't have its primary whenever it wants to. However, everyone agreed in advance that MI & FL delegates wouldn't be seated if they moved their primaries up. Even Hillary, when asked why she left her name on the MI ballot, said it didn't matter because the votes wouldn't count.

Then after MI primary and right before FL, she changed her mind and began this whole controversy (very reminiscent of the NV caucus lawsuit).

She has now influenced & poisoned a fair re-vote with her claim that she's the only one who fights for your voting rights!

But she doesn't want a re-vote? Just seat the delegates from MI where Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot? From 2 primaries where God knows how many people didn't bother to vote because they were told it didn't matter? Where people may have voted for her because she promised she'd MAKE their votes matter?

I don't know how she can get away with these manufactured controversies. It's very Bush/Rove-like -- claiming agreed-upon rules (or the Constitution) are a matter of opinion.

[Tarc]

41. Clinton has voiced support for a revote

No idea where you're getting you "But she doesn't want a re-vote?" nonsense.

[Ino]

42. From post #1 and #8 on this thread

You notice I used a question mark. A link would have been more helpful than your snippy reply.