I wish people would stop bringing up

[pbca]

Michigan, Florida and the 'Dream Ticket'

The 'Dream Team' is not a dream to most Obama supporters and Obama has completely rejected it. You can't have a Obama/Clinton or even a Clinton/Obama ticket without Obama so that's not going to happen.

Michigan and Florida were told before the primaries that their's wouldn't count. They have (rather generously) be given an opportunity to do them over and neither seems inclined to do that. Without doing the primaries over Michigan and Florida won't count so we can stop debating it - if they announce new primary dates, legitimate ones, then it will count otherwise it's over for them: the DLC has already cancelled their reservations for the convention so...

[JuniperLea]

1. I wish people would stop behaving as if this sort of thing has never happened before...

Except for the Bush/Cheney regime, you would be hard pressed to find a P and a VP that got along well, or a VP that adamantly opposed being the VP to whomever, only to wind up being exactly that.

History is a very important subject.

[Political Heretic]

2. Regan / Bush is a good example.

I mean, I know its total heresy to bring up an example using republicans. But those guys did not like each other in 1980. For reals.

Bush to Regan = "Voodoo Economics." :)

[On the Road]

3. Yeah, It's Pretty Much Par for the Course

Everything gets on the table. I don't blame Hillary Clinton for bringing it up, but I think Obama would be crazy to take her up on it. Especially with Bill Clinton around, no one will know who's in charge. Obama needs someone more closely connected with the state parties.

[JuniperLea]

27. Hehe! Hillary would be in charge, without question...

Or so would be the American read on the situation. There was a lot of talk about her being in charge of the first Clinton administration;)

[KittyWampus]

14. I wish DU'ers would accept the fact Hillary brings NOTHING to a Democratic ticket at this point

[JuniperLea]

28. I wish DUers would understand that they are welcome to thier opinions

But just because they have an opinion, it doesn't mean that a) they are correct in their assumptions, and b) everyone should agree with their opinions.

There are a whole lot of voters and delegates out there who do not agree with you. Besides, the Democratic ticket would win on it's own without a candidate at this point. My dog Jack could win against McCain.

[Birthmark]

4. Gotta love the fascism among Dems.

"Your party leaders screwed up. Therefore, YOU don't get to vote." Yeah, that's progressive.

[pbca]

5. What exactly is the DLC supposed to do?

Invade Florida and Michigan and force them to have primaries? Spend the General Election warchest going into those two states and organizing the primaries for them?

It is up to the state legislatures and the state Dem. parties to hold primaries - but in Florida and Michigan they have refused to do so.

Letting the results of the illegitimate primaries stand is not an option.

I feel badly for Michigan and Florida, but it would appear that the state of Florida is simply incapable of holding a legitimate election of any type.

[FlyingSquirrel]

6. I think they should penalize them 1/2 of delegates and superdelegates.

And seat the rest. This allows them to not have to re-run anything, provides a penalty, reduces the (unfair, in many peoples' eyes) advantage to Clinton, and generally makes everyone unhappy which probably means it's the right solution.

[Gore1FL]

9. wxcep for those voters who believed it when they said it wouldn't count

and didn't vote.

The results of MI are clearly not solved by this either.

[Birthmark]

15. A. There is no evidence that those people exist

B. I have proposed a solution (or two) to that in another post.

I guess it feels too good to put one in defenseless voters for the DNC to adopt a reasonable position. At least the DNC feels all powerful...and that's what it's really all about, isn't it?

[pbca]

22. You are sooo going on ignore

You bring nothing to the table, you can't make a reasonable point - just a temper tantrum..yes, yes I know 'facist' *yawn*

[Birthmark]

24. Yeah, I understand.

I mean, I'm a maniacal child. After all, I pointed out that there's no valid evidence that people stayed home in FL. AND I *still* proposed a reasonable solution to accommodate those people.

I'm clearly out of control. lol

[Gore1FL]

31. I can provide some right here:

Democratic voters in FL as of 2004: 3,583,544

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/FL/P/00/

Democratic primaray voters 2008: 1,447,200

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

My guess is either people stayed home or 2.1 million either moved or died.

[Birthmark]

8. Florida HAD a primary

...with a record turnout and ALL of the candidates on the ballot. Now, if you're really truly worried about the dozen or so that allegedly stayed home, then I'm open to re-opening the voting to those that didn't vote in January.

I'm also open to seating half the delegates (excluding the super-delegates who should NOT be seated under any circumstances).

But there is no rational way that anyone can contend that FL's primary wasn't a legitimate expression of the voters' will.

MI is a mess.

[Gore1FL]

7. How is that fascism?

The states involved approved the rules and then broke them. That isn't fascism, it is incompetence--and not on the part of the DNC.

FI th punishment for doing so bothers you, one recourse is to complain to the members of the rules committee that voted for it. Yoiu can reach one of them, Harold Ickes, at the Clinton campaign.

[Birthmark]

11. The State Party leaders broke the rules...

...so take it out on the voters...who had no say. Of course that's NOT fascism. What was I thinking?!

:sarcasm: - just to be clear

[pbca]

13. It's something you need to take up with your state party

Not the DNC. If they are incapable of holding a primary you need to replace them.

If I'm in a class with 48 other people and two of us break the rules taking a test and are told the results don't count that's only fair. There is nothing to whine, cry or complain about.

If the prof. is good enough to say - 'but you can take the test over' - the two of us would be fools not to jump at the chance, if we whine and cry and lobby to have our original tests counted that's just childish and absurd.

[Birthmark]

17. Bum analogy.

We, the People who voted, didn't break any rules. Your analogy is self-serving twaddle. Sorry.

It is the mere childish ego of the DNC that prevents a solution that is fair to the 1.75 million voters of FL.

[pbca]

20. No, you were told before you voted

that it wasn't going to count. You just want to change the rules after the fact. You are behaving like a spoiled child and anyone who doesn't let you get your way is a *gasp* 'facist'

[Birthmark]

23. Yeah, I must be a child.

Who else would object to being disenfranchised for something for which they bear absolutely no responsibility? A mature man would simply say, "Not counting my vote? Oh, no problem." Is that your take? lol

And We, the People, voted on the only day that the State Legislature allowed. We had no choice. I have voted in every Federal and State election (and most locals) since 1976. It is the RULE that is the problem. It is an attack on the People for actions in which they had no part and no control.

But you can console yourself with how "right" you are (and I mean that in several ways) during McCain's four years as President. Hey, if that's your thang...well, there's not much I can do to stop you, is there? Man, that must feel good, to impose your will on the defenseless like that.

[Levgreee]

16. They still allowed Florida to move the primary back again, so they couild vote.

Giving a state the choice to vote, if they just do not break the rules, is fascism? At any time they could have gone back on their decision, and gained the right to vote for delegates again.

You think it's good to just give in to a state that doesn't respect agreements made months ago, and does an obvious power play... setting precedent for losing total control over the order of the primaries? (if Florida did it successfully, why couldn't other states?)

The Democrats should have been marching in the streets of Florida, demanding that Florida moves back the primary again, so their votes would count for delegates.

[Birthmark]

18. No, throwing out 1.75 million votes is fascism

You could look it up.

[Gore1FL]

29. No it isn't

It's tragic. It's mind boggling. It isn't fascism.

Now, if a dictatorial ruler of the DNC imposed the rules, there was not a vote on the rules, etc.

It is not the DNC's fault. Although, if you feel it is, send Harold Ickes of the Clinton campaign mail complaining about his vote to strip FL and MI of their delegates. You might wantt to ask what other bone headed decisions he would make as a member of the White House staff,in the infantesimal chance Hillary gets the nomination.

[sharp_stick]

10. fascism?

Taking definitions from Jonah Goldberg are we?

[Birthmark]

12. Yes. Fascism.

Taking political tactics from Karl Rove are we?

[DemVet]

21. EXACTLY!!!! Just my point exactly. Punish the masses for the mistakes of the few.

[spoony]

26. Too right.

[DemVet]

19. MI and FL WILL be brought up until they are NOT disenfranchised.

It just stuns me that people want to penalize the entire Democratic Electorate of two large states just because a few party bigwigs screwed up.

Amazing.

[Birthmark]

25. It is amazing, isn't it.

Another one that goes into my list of "Crap I Never Thought I'd See."

[meow mix]

30. i suppose its fine to have half the partys candidate not on the ticket huh

give it a rest. you dont care about being fair you just want to cheat.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

32. It's the new politcs, or something