Why doesn't Obama's time as a community organizer count as part of his "lifetime of experience"?

[dansolo]

Being President involves more than just being Commander-in-Chief. Being a successful community organizer involves a lot of the same skills that any successful leader would need. Is it just the Beltway mentality, that only Washington experience is relevant? Obama has demonstrated, in both his community organizing, and throughout his legislative career, that he has been able to convince people, even those who oppose him, the value of what he proposes. When you strip away the partisanship, it becomes much easier to get things done. That is the most significant thing that he, as opposed to John McCain and Hillary Clinton, can bring.

[paperbag_ princess]

1. if it were a small blip on his resume that would be great.

but it is #3 after a partial Senate term where he voted "present" way too often and state legislator.

[Liberal Veteran]

7. So voting present less than 3% of the time is way too often? How many votes has Hil missed?

[niceypoo]

Legislators vote 'present' for political reasons

afraid to take a stand on an issue

[TheDoorbellRang]

10. Illinois legislators -- both Republican and Democratic

have explained this procedure used in the Illinos legislature. It is a false argument used against Obama

'Present' votes defended by Illinois lawmakers
by Daniel C. Vock, Stateline.org Staff Writer
January 25, 2008

In most legislatures, lawmakers vote either "yes" or "no" on bills, but in Illinois, senators and representatives can hit a third button for a "present" vote. Now that quirk -- not unique to Illinois -- has sparked heated exchanges among Democrats vying for president.

The two main rivals of Illinois' U.S. Sen. Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination accused him during a debate Monday (Jan. 21) of ducking important votes by voting "present" about 130 times during his eight years in the Illinois Senate.

But Obama's former colleagues who still serve in the Illinois Capitol say that the attacks are off-base and that either Obama's opponents don't understand how things work in Springfield or they are deliberately distorting his record.

more...

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/707/present-votes-illinois

[rug]

22. If you can't vote "Yes" or "No", what does it say about your judgment?

[IsItJustMe]

30. Some pots of shit are better left alone. It tells me he has good judgement.

[rug]

37. Most bills are pots of shit of one kind or another.

Avoiding them instead of arguing to change them - or voting use or no on the final language - simply ducks the question. Leaders don't duck.

[karynnj]

31. It says you understand that there are three valid ways to vote in Illinois - all of which have

purposes. HRC, by the way, knows this. She grew up in Illinois and it would have been covered in her high school government class. Here is an op-ed written by someone with Illinois Senate and Clinton White House experience. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F03E6D7133DF935A25751C0A96E9C8B63&scp=1&sq=present+Illinois+&st=nyt

The "present" vote was described as someone not happy enough with the language of a bill to vote for it, who want to signal that they would vote for an amended bill. The US Senate does not have that vote - Senators must vote yes or no, even though on many things they are really "yes,but" or "no,but". Their floor speeches can reflect those "buts", but as can be seen others can and will assign meanings to votes that don't reflect where the Senators were in the process. A "present" vote would be useful when you they aren't happy with either a yes or a no.

An example of where this could have been helpful was the IWR. Consider someone like Senator Biden, who was one of the sponsors of the alternative Biden/Lugar amendment (that people like Dean said in Fall 2003, he supported). From comments in 2007, he felt that something had to be done, the sanctions - at least from most of the world were going to be lifted - and if Saddam was dangerous, he would become more so - but he, like most Democrats wanted a resolution that gave up less to Bush. Here, he could have voted "present", explaining this. You can make the same case for many other Democrats - some more easily than others. The result, it still would have passed - almost all Republicans would have stayed "yes" and Democrats, like Leiberman, Zell Miller and Edwards (a co-sponsor) would have been "yes" in addition to some of the more conservative Democrats.

So, given that it would have still passed, would it make a difference? I think so - in that the numbers would show the truth - a very substantial majority of Democrats would have been "No" or "present", arguing mainly that it was premature to give Bush authority. That would make it harder for Republicans to spin it as bi-partisan.

[karynnj]

32. Do you think everything is black or white?

[rug]

35. Do you think declining to decide is good judgment?

[karynnj]

40. It is refusing to say yes or no, when the answer is that a better

solution is available. Read how it is described by the various Illinois legislators - who said they have all used it for the purpose it was designed for. The fact is it was different than not voting.

[Maribelle]

33. It sounds exactly like good old fashioned back room Chicago politics, doesn't it.

Poor poor Obama - - your typical old school Chicago politics from an era that was perhaps the most corrupt in the nation, is forced to vote "present" for political reasons.

I guess this "change" mantra Obama and his followers keep trying to jam down the throats of the unknowing is proven false by his good old fashioned back room Chicago politics, now isn't it?

[TheDoorbellRang]

39. Just offering information for those inclined to partake

The one thing that leaps out in this primary season is that no one seems to like how any other state but their own does things, as evidenced by the caucus vs. open primary vs. closed primary vs. two-step screeds.

Illinois has a procedure that they use in their legislature that varies from that used elsewhere and has nothing to do with backroom politics. :shrug:

[karynnj]

41. I think you failed grade school social studies - the Illinois legislature meets in Springfield the

capital of Illinois. With a candidate from Arkansas - I wouldn't speak of Chicago, which by the way is now a very nice city that has experienced a resurgence in recent times.

It's not the 1950s and 1960s anymore.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

11. Your use of the bullshit "present vote" canard automatically discredits your opinion. nt

[sniffa]

12. Thank you

I've been debating whether to add you to my ever-growing ignore list, but always sided on not hitting the Red X. You've solved this dilemma. :hug:

[paperbag_ princess]

17. okay cool-

I really don't even know who you are...so I could care less. Do you put everyone with a differing opinion on ignore? Not that it even matters...or that you are even reading this.

[paperbag_ princess]

16. weird- so much anger

I just calmly answered the OP. You may disagree with me...but that is how I see it and I am not alone in my opinion.

I think you all know that he is weak here...that is why you are angry.


I know that Hillary is weak on likability...I don't get angry when people express concerns about it

[EFerrari]

19. I have no problem with Obama not having year of corruption behind him

like McCain. He has more experience as a legislator than Clinton does.

[Mass]

21. Actually, being a community organizer is important. More than being Arkansas first Lady, that

Hillary thinks is so important. It empowers people, rather than just giving thinks from the top, which is what kings and queens do?

As for your comment, I cannot even make sense of it. You do not vote present in the US Senate and being a state senator is important for the state in question.

Being first lady, however, is just being married to a president. Aside from that, she has been a one term senator, elected on her husband name, and a corporate lawyer.

[paperbag_ princess]

24. you think ...I think

You think it is important... I don't. We each have our standards.

Being a state senator is not enough for me...there is no one who I would vote for out of a state senate position.

Hillary was a different kind of first lady. She held an important role in all of her husband's administrations unlike most First Ladies.

Edit to add: Pardon my error..It was in the Illinois legislature....

[Mass]

28. Thanks for your opinion, and note I disagree.

[islandmkl]

2. yeah, but you see, he actually did spend time doing that...

there is no framework to compare to clinton or mccain in that regard...

so they just ignore it, as if he was a kid with his first local job, doing errands and such....

and Barack knows that the record speaks for itself and those who know about it know about it...

he knows those who know and don't care are in the same group as those who don't know and don't care...

plus, in this primary, deep background doesn't seem to influence too many voters...it's the dirt that moves numbers...

[papau]

3. lawyer for slumlord and community organizer - OK - no problem - those are the facts

[jmg257]

4. It is. Alot of people include that service in his resume.

[Cali_Democrat]

5. Lifetime experience only counts when your the scorned wife of a cheating husband. n/t.

[Cha]

6. 'Cause hilary's the

Decider..or freakin' thinks she is.

[Ravy]

8. Honestly, I believe she is referring to foreign policy.

Of course Obama's time as a community organizer was valuable to him, and the very fact he did it when he could have been making megabucks is laudable, imho. But when she talks about "commander-in-chief" duties, she is talking only about foreign policy issues. Commander-in-chief is only *one* of the hats the president wears.

[theboss]

29. And she has led how many summits?

When she cites 35 years of experience, she is telling us how long ago she graduated from law school

[amborin]

9. 'cause it means he knew Rezko was a slum lord hurting folks

[NDambi]

13. Because he's not the Hillster...that's why

:sarcasm:

[MattBaggins]

14. As an Obama supporter

It is because it sounds as silly as Hillary negotiating the Peace in Ireland, or Romney Turning around the Olympics.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

15. I used to work for ACORN. Do I get to be President now?

Jesus H. Christ... he is the least experienced major Presidential candidate in 150 years.

The point is not debatable.

That doesn't mean he can't be a good President. It just means that people trying to spin him as being experienced are fools.

It's like arguing that Hillary Clinton is as tall as John Kerry. (Hint: She isn't.)

[Hugabear]

20. 150 years ago - who would have been president then?

Let me think...

Could it have been ABRAHAM LINCOLN?

Way to go and prove your point!

Quick, can you name any of Lincoln's great legislative achievements during his brief tenure in the House? Of course not. Lincoln is known for what he did AFTER he was elected president.

[democrattotheend]

18. I think it definitely counts

In fact, it's one of the factors that made me decide to support him. His experience as a community organizer is clearly reflected in the way he has run his campaign, and it is refreshing to see a candidate who understands the importance of grassroots activism.

You are absolutely right about the skills that one develops as an organizer being valuable to a politician, particularly in terms of the ability to convince people on both sides of the aisle to get on board with a bill or proposal. Those skills will make him an effective president if he can get that far.

I have a friend who used to be a union organizer, and I can see in him that same political talent - the ability to convince people, the ability to get people fired up, and the ability to make whoever he is talking to feel like they are the most important person in the world to him. I've encouraged him to run for office but he says his views are too left wing for this country. I told him he should move to the People's Republic of Vermont, a state for which I've had a special place in my heart since I worked on the Dean campaign.

[Vinca]

23. If Hillary was a community organizer, it would count. It doesn't

count if it was Obama. Similar to the big state/little state thing. Hillary, of course, is counting everything from when she was heading up the college Republicans. Then there is the Sinbad, world peace tour.

[usrbs]

25. It does. It's a point in his favor

It does lead me to believe that he's at heart a good person. It's just a very thin basis for a run for President.

And yes, being the very involved spouse of a Governor and President is more applicable experience in my book.

[pampango]

26. Corporate boardrooms count for more than community organizing.

Or am I sounding too Republican now? ;)

[cooolandrew]

27. They count MIGHTLY it is how he overcame the Clinton machine and how he will change America for the

better.

[tekisui]

34. Everyone has a "Lifetime of Experience".

[Seabiscuit]

36. Indeed, he didn't have any trouble convincing Rezko of the value of his propositions.

And he's got a nice house to show for it!

[boston bean]

38. the six months he did that? i don't know. nt

[jackson_dem]

42. It does--it just doesn't qualify as experience that prepares you to be president

You and I have a lifetime of experience. Are we ready to be president?