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Florida Democrats will attempt to destroy Dean for not giving in to them.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:56 PM
Original message
Florida Democrats will attempt to destroy Dean for not giving in to them.
Some are going so far as to say he should get with Hillary and Obama, and broker a deal. Yeh, that would work really well...to try to tell the wife of the former president what to do.

Here's the problem...he is the chairman of all of the party..Florida is NOT the center of the universe except in their own mind. It has been Hillary's superdelegates leading the way here, and then being the first to condemn no matter what steps were taken.

He is the chairman who has tried to open up the party to the people out side of DC. He has tried to change the power structure to include all the country and all of the states, and not just a few elite states.

In trying to be fair, he will pay a price. It will be the tactic to say he is not leading, but when he does try to lead fairly they will attack him for that as well. He was an object of discussion on the Hillary conference call...and it was not pleasant. They are all so "disappointed."

I see two compliments to his work in this article at the St Pete Times. The rest is what is coming...it will be the tactics. He will be portrayed as inadequate, as weak, for not stopping Florida from moving their primary ahead. He let the rules committee do its job. They took away the delegates because Florida appeared before them and did not tell the truth.

In this article he is criticized for letting the rules committee do that. For not standing up the rules committee.

I like the quote from Harvard research, Elaine Kamarck. She did a long study on the 50 State Plan, and found it was working well.

I think Dean has stayed exactly the right course, which is stay in the background and work to find a consensus," said Elaine Kamarck, a member of the DNC rules committee and former senior adviser to Al Gore's presidential campaign. "If he were to get out front on this, people would be yelling at him that he shouldn't be out front on this. He can't win."

She said only two entities have the authority solve the problem: the DNC rules committee, which must okay any new election that could distribute delegates to the candidates; and the party's credentials committee, which decides who gets seated at the national convention.


Thanks, Elaine, I remember how the blog treated you at times because you were DLC. You are right, Dean is playing his role in an impartial manner.

I also thank Florida DNC member, Alan Katz, for this comment. The only decent one from Florida.

"Here we are three years later — the Democrats won the House and Senate, we have paid staff in every state in the country, and we are a real national party," said Allan Katz, a DNC member from Tallahassee who is close to Dean. "I happen to think he provided a good balance."


As to the rest of the article, it is mostly criticism. There is this paragraph.

Dean backers say he must not jeopardize his neutrality, and any attempt to count the delegates could be seen as favoring one candidate over another. They say Dean has far less latitude under DNC rules than his critics suggest.


Here is the article from the St. Pete Times.

Critics: Dean too quiet on Florida's delegates

You can read the rest if you wish. I am very aware that this is a contest, and it was a contest from the beginning. It is a contest between a campaign which does not use the 50 State Plan, does not use the DNC voter file, and does not approve of any states but the really really big ones.

It is a campaign that said that the rules of the DNC were not the rules of her campaign.

The rules the party has put in place to choose its nominee are not the rules of the Clinton campaign and, just like the Obama campaign, we are doing what we can under those rules to secure the requisite number of delegates for the nomination. One way to avoid the situation described above is to figure out some way to honor the votes of Michigan and Florida, where there was record turnout. Counting the delegates in Florida and Michigan is a civil rights issue, and a solution needs to be figured out before the convention.


I have had to live among the people who started this thing here in Florida. It has been made clear that it was not being done for the people of the state, but for the super massive egos of the state party leaders.

Floridians now do not even know what they want. To be fair to the people who were screwed by the party leaders, Dean offered a revote. Now their heads are popping here...a revote..goody. But now they don't even want it unless it is all on their terms.

Here's a surprising part of the article from someone I do respect. Wexler is admonishing Dean to get an agreement from Obama and Hillary. He seems to think that will solve all the problems. He surprised me with this line of thinking.

Rep. Robert Wexler, who supports Obama, said he spoke with Dean this week and encouraged him to sit down with Obama, Clinton and Florida Democrats to broker some sort of deal.

"Stop with the technicalities — the chairman of the party needs to prevent us from driving over the cliff," Wexler said. "He did sound amenable to that."


Bob, you and the other Florida leaders have been the ones driving us off the cliff. You may be for Obama, but you are hurting the party. Stop the spin, step back, take a deep breath, and think what you guys are doing to the party. Dean is highly respected by many, and you are driving a wedge.

There is a court case Monday on appeal. No telling what will happen. There was a lawsuit by Bill Nelson. There was a lawsuit against the state. There will be an injunction filed if there is a revote.

A campaign is using its surrogates to damage the reputation of the party chairman who was supported by activists and the netroots. It is using them to instill doubt in his ability to function.

I hope enough see what is happening, but I seriously doubt it.

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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. He is leading. He has to enforce the rules and they chose to fuck around. He should not cave!
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. It's unfortunate things are going this way in florida
And I'm sorry your disappointed in Mrs.Castor, but, I'm starting to think she is understanding our situation. I do have family in the Tampa area as well. :)
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. Totally agree and, knowing Dean, he won't cave.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. No offense to Floridians here, but I'm ready for Florida to break off and float away.
Why is is that Florida is the site of sooooo many of our problems??
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. as long as Florida takes Texas with it
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hell-bent Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. Ha,ha,ha,
Bravo!
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Independent-Voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. Florida and Ohio have the unique ability to fuck up anything important it seems. I have no idea why.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
52. Yeah, I'm about to that point as well.
I love Florida but they have dysfunctional government. Go sit in the corner and let the grownups handle this one. Check back in 4 years.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks, mad..at least Rep Rob
Wexler is not dlc dino. Dean has helped our country so much and has weathered so many things in his life..I think he'll come out this okay.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. Here is what I meant about using the DNC voter files.
Sources of voter lists are defining the campaigns, could affect the election as well.

Rather than focusing on a handful of swing states, Dean and a chorus of like-minded allies have argued, Democrats should invest substantial time and money in trying to restore their competitiveness, even in Republican territory. As part of that initiative, Dean has provided every state party with funds to hire organizers and upgrade computerized voter files.

Dave Boundy, the DNC's political director, says that while Clinton has used voter files from a private vendor, Obama has mostly purchased the files from state parties. Under the agreement with those parties, Boundy added, Obama will update the files to show which voters responded to his outreach efforts. That should help state parties and the eventual nominee target their own turnout campaigns this fall.


And Hillary is most likely using Harold Ickes Catalist.

Perhaps Ickes' largest-scale project is Catalist, a private company born out of his open distrust in the ability of Democratic Party chairman Howard Dean to build a voter database to rival that of the Republicans. Ickes is president of the company.

"It's unclear to me," Ickes said, whether the Democratic Party's database is uniform and rich enough for a national election.

The Democratic Party's voter database, a party spokeswoman said, is fully functional and accessible through a central interface.

"Given the proven success of VoteBuilder in the 2006 elections and the overwhelmingly positive response we've had from the campaigns and state parties who used it, we are very confident in our voter file," said DNC communications director Karen Finney.


Using the party database, and in return, adding to it. Good for all the party.

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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. oh please.. that mess is entirely their own making
Edited on Thu Mar-13-08 10:03 PM by C_U_L8R
they were told the rules
they were warned not to move their primary dates
they were told the penalty they would incur
and the dumbarrogantfucks did it anyway !!!!
The good people of Florida should be emptying
their garbage cans on their legislature's doorsteps
because that is the mess they've made.

Blame it on Dean.. HA !!!!! That's just ridiculous.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. RCP shows Obama up 80K in popular vote at this time - redo FL/Mich and he may win the popular
vote going in to the convention - as it stands now he most likely will not. It is to Obama's advantage - if he wants the popular vote talking point - to agree to the mail in and indeed to fund the redo.


Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)* - 13,856,984 47.5% 13,776,339 47.3% Obama +80,645 +0.2%


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

Add in PA and PR and assume close in 8 others and Hillary ends up with more popular vote coming into convention.

Again, A redo of Mich/FL would help Obama by decreasing her margins in those states
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. They can have their effing redo....but NOW they don't want it.
They wanted it until Dean offered it, and then they didn't want it anymore.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. And actually what counts
is vote represented. the raw pop vote totals basically eliminate caucus state oters. If the formula is reversed to equate how many voters those delegates represent, He's outlandishly ahead. Unfortunately for Clinton, that is the only fair way to equalize them.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kathy Castor has so disappointed me.
"Asked about his leadership before the meeting, Rep. Kathy Castor of Tampa joked, "Who?""

Kathy was one I trusted, just like her mother, Betty. I have been so upset with her unfairness.
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. CNN has a story on the FLORIDA DEMOCRAT that introduced the bill to move the election date up.
Edited on Thu Mar-13-08 10:07 PM by kwenu
Don't blame Dean!!!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Do you have a link? Must be dear Jeremy..
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. See my sigline
But, hey, it's not like the nominee will *need* Fl's Electoral Votes, right?

Howard's Rules are far more important than winning the White House. :sarcasm:
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. To your sigline
Kiss your own ass. The Party will be fine without you and without rules, Florida will have their 2012 primary in the spring of 2011. Fine lawmakers you have elected there.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Hey, thanks for the support
Someday, when someone tries to disenfranchise you for the actions of others...well, you actually can count on me to help you recover your Right. I think this exchange says something about both of us.
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I think it says you are a typical Hillary supporter
Blame the correct people for your "disenfranchisement". It sure as fuck isn't Howard Dean.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. It was Dean and the DNC that disenfranchised me
They aren't required to do so. It is their choice. Had they imposed a reasonable penalty, they'd have my support. But they overreacted and penalized the innocent.

I understand the pathological need to label me as a "Hillary supporter." It allows you to explain my position to yourself utilizing a political basis rather than a philosophical basis, therefore, dismissable as just so much campaigning. You'll have to find a new explanation, though, since I was never a fan of Hillary OR Bill. Ever...with exception of the Impeachment nonsense.

Disenfranchising the innocent is wrong. Period.
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. The rules were in place, the legislators ignored them
The blame goes to the legislators. THEY are the ones that need to kiss asses, if anyone should. It is unfortunate for the voters, but it is reality. If Dean were to just give in and let the delegates be seated as is, that would mean the rules are worthless, and I would want Wisconsin, my state, to make sure that they lead off the primary cycle in 2016, because there would be no repercussions. Dean and the DNC are the easy targets, the FL legislators and Governor are the correct ones!
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Okay, so...
...by your reasoning...if I shoot at a cop...that cop is justified in gunning down my whole family? You would just claim that it was unfortunate for them? I find that hard to believe...yet it's the same logic you are applying to disenfranchising 1.75 million voters.
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
50. No, that analogy would make sense if the DNC were not seating, say, Georgia's delegates.
It's more like this: if a cop guns down a family in the line of duty and the family's kin sues the government, then YOU as a taxpayer will have to pay because the cop was working for you.

Best thing for voters in FL and MI to do: vote those assholes out. They used your vote in a play for power and lost.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Wonder how all the Obama supporters would be talking if Obama had won the state.
You can only guess.
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. It wasn't going to count no matter who "won" it
So, I wouldn't be complaining about it right now like many Hil supporters are. Why couldn't MI/FLA legislators follow the rules and fill out the proper paperwork to have their primary moved legally? Is it that damn hard to follow the rules?
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
30. I think we'd both guess the same thing.
I base that on how often my concern is construed as "supporting Hillary" rather than on the notion that innocent people shouldn't be punished. As I said, these exchanges tell us something about all involved. What I'm hearing in some quarters is pretty alarming.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. and what if Hillary had quit the race after finishing 3rd in Iowa Like Howard Dean?
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 12:08 PM by Capn Sunshine
You can only guess
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Please stop using facts like that.
It just confuses people. Losing 14 of the last 17 states...please don't say that either.
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hell-bent Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. And, you might add
that Obama broke the "rules" by running his ads on MSNBC(other media?)here in central Florida. WTF? Why didn't he abide by the agreement not to campaign here in Florida. The St. Pete Times reported that there were Obama signs near polling places in some areas of this state. He got permission? From what person? Howie?
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
55. How is any of this Howard Dean's fault?
The DNC tried to reason with us before our own legislators did this to us. They knew that we, the people, would be the ones to get punished, but that didn't stop them, or even slow them down. They couldn't have cared less. Seriously.

Why are mad a Dean, he isn't the one who disenfranchised anyone, it was the state leadership. Why don't you see that?

Dean has been the only one trying to look out for the interests of the voters. Why wouldn't he? What kind of motive do you think he has, to make him go out of his way to screw FL and MI voters? How do you come up with this kind of stuff?

Dean cannot tell the Florida party leadership what to do, he tried, and they just thumbed their noses at him and the national party.

Can I ask you something that seems important? Who told you that this is Dean's fault? Do you remember who it was?
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. About those rules of the DNC
Wouldn't it be a good message for the DNC to show the rest of the country that they respect and abide by rules & pledges, unlike Republicans?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Florida went before the rules cmte. and did not tell the truth. They were sanctioned.
The DNC had transcripts of the things they had done, and they had tried to work with Florida for months, practically begging.

Florida sat before the rules committee and lied. There was no excuse. They have yet to tell the truth about what they did. They will attempt to destroy Dean and his 50 state plan first.

Read this:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1903
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. No
It was the Republicans in Florida in 2000 that insisted on a blind adherence to petty, arbitrary rules.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
57. That's total bullshit about FL 2000. Right-wing talking points.
Bush sued in FL and even though he lost his case in front of the FL Supreme Court, the Court granted him the releif he sought (because there was no objection at all from the Gore camp) and ordered a recount for the whole state.

Then, having obtained this relief, in violation of FL statutes, Bush went in front of the SCOTUS and cried that the rules were changed in the middle of the game.

You are completely wrong about Florida 2000.

You couldn't be more wrong!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
15. One more thing...
I never got an answer to this.

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.

Why not? Terry yelled at Levin. Nobody condemned him, no one sued him. Dean has had two lawsuits, plus the ugly continuing one from the gay community which they are playing out online to destroy reputations at the DNC.

So don't piss on my leg and tell me it is raining. It is an orchestrated effort.
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sonias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Good reminder, madfloridian
About the Michigan delegates in 2004.

:hi:

Sonia
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
25. Coincidentally the FL op eds slamming Dean are out in force tonight.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-forum16kingsleysbmar16,0,5631974.story

This one puts all the blame on him, and says he should be fired.

That is the tactic. I found about 6 more just tonight. Florida is perfectly innocent, Dean is evil.

I have lived among this, until I have no tolerance left.

Florida went before the rules committee, did not tell the truth, they were sanctioned.

This is an organized effort to hurt the chairman, even though he offered a revote.

Florida Democrats are cowards. They refuse to admit what they did. They will let someone else take the fall for it.

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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
26. My money's on Howard.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Maybe in the end, you might be right. BUT...
I have to live here, and what it is doing to my attitude is not good. They are so transparent in what they are doing. It is a shame.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Well, the bee hive's done been knocked over. It don't matter to the bees
whose foot did the kickin'.


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
33. The part that will linger is the lack of truth by Florida party leaders.
Truth seems to mean little to them. They have so long avoided it that now they are using Dean as their scapegoat completely.

He has been gracious, but I don't blame him for saying he is not going hang around the building in 09.

Maybe Terry will come back...or maybe Harold Ford. They would not fight the established Democrats. Things would be easier.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
39. Don't worry -Floridians are too stupid to get anything done
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hell-bent Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. And fuck the Bears too!
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. alrighty then!
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hell-bent Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. No, thank you! :>)
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
40. Howard Dean is proving his integrity in leadership by standing firm on the rules.
Any and all pressure on him to do otherwise is as disingenous as it is provocative.
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Independent-Voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Indeed. Dean's under alot of heat to buckle. A REAL leader doesn't stand for this kind of shit.
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hell-bent Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Is that according to the words
of the Chosen One? No doubt you were a orange-hat Dean supporter in 2004,right?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. I supported Wesley Clark in 2004.
so, there's that
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hell-bent Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. You go girl!
You are alright in my book even though you are misled by the Great Orator..... :>)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #44
56. You seem "hell-bent" on irritating some people.
.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
45. You make this sound like a bad thing.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
48. Dean's term is almost up - do you know if he wants to run again?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. I don't know.
I would doubt it after all that has happened.
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 12:40 PM
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53. "To try to tell THE WIFE of the former president what to do"? Unbelievable.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 01:11 PM
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54. kick
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