When asked about his past comments on Vietnam atrocities...

[TLM]

Kerry comments on his HAIR!?!?!?!

WTF???

Then he backtracks and says atrocities was the wrong word to use to describe incinerating people alive and mowing down innocent men women and children with machine gun fire?

This is exactly why I can't stand this guy. This arrogant smarmy fence sitting flip flopping BS. Has this guy stood firm on any position ever?

This is what the dems have to offer?

[Dookus]

1. umm... he made a small joke about his hair

and then went on and gave an in-depth answer to the question. Jeez...

[TLM]

9. Oh so it was just a little joke about his hair...

to try and deflect the question about MURDERING PEOPLE!


I know there's nothing more amusing than a good hair joke when I'm asked a serious question about my past statments on war time atrocities.


Face it... the guy took one position when that position was good for his career, and flip loped to another position when that was good for his career.

[JI7]

20. some people are just upset

their candidate lost. this person is claiming in all these posts that kerry tried to avoid answering the question, when in reality he answered the fucking question and said the war crimes accusations have been proven to be true. he said the words he used then were honest though he could have put them differently and considered others feelings. of all the canidates who ran in that primary, only kucinich, sharpton, and kerry had ever attended anti war rallies.

[TLM]

22. only kucinich, sharpton, and kerry had ever attended anti war rallies.

And of them how many voted for the war in iraq then flip floped?



"this person is claiming in all these posts that kerry tried to avoid answering the question,"

It was a deflection. It just failed miserably. When his little joke crashed like the Hindenburg, he was forced to address the question as he addresses all questions, by playing both sides... we were proven right BUT... but we shouldn't have been so straight forward and used terms like atrocity.

Same old Kerry... one step left and one step right so he can continue to straddle the middle.

[JI7]

23. he didn't try to avoid answering any question

everyone who was watching it at the time said he handled it as perfectly as he can. only you who has always hated kerry complained about something so small. not only did he answer the question but he said the war crimes was true and that his words then were honest.

it's not as if dean was so anti war considering he never attended any anti war protests and he supported a war resolution.

[TLM]

27. Funny you didn't answer my questions about kerry...

all you did was repeat teh same BS and attack Dean.


And Kerry did handle the question as perfectly as a status quo DC insider who supported the war in Iraq then flip floped to oppose it, could have. By making a disgustingly bad joke and then hedging his previous position by saying he should have used diferent terminology that atrocities eventhough he was absolutly correct in using those terms.

Even when he knows he is right... he still has to hem and haw and ride that fucking fence.

[JI7]

29. answer the question about kerry ?

i answered the question about him. he said what he said was honest. i'm sorry you don't get that. i'm sorry you can't see that use of words does matter sometimes. nothing kerry said changes the fact that kerry did not backtrack on war crimes accusations and in fact said it had been proven to be true and that his words were honest.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JI7]

33. none of them have done that

[TLM]

37. Kerry did...

but of course like most blinder clad kerry supporters you'll argue that voting for the IWR and attacking Dean for wanting to wait for UN support and saying saddam had nukes, wasn't really supporting the war in Iraq.

RIght.

[zoeyfong]

52. Some people just can't defend their candidate's warmongering

for votes, so they resort to infantile personal insults. The original post was right on, and the truth hurts. But hey, as long as kerry wins, what's a few thousand dead people and a few hundred billion dollars down an Iraqi toilet?

[mouse7]

62. Read post #58 n/t

[Democat]

2. You support Bush getting another term, then?

If not, why the hell are you starting yet another thread bashing the only candidate who has a chance of beating Bush.

Not only that, you are using right wing talking points exactly, "flip flopping"? Are you on the RNC mailing list, maybe the Bush 2004 talking points list?

Is it your goal to help Bush get elected?

[wtmusic]

5. No kidding

There're a lot of us around here who would have preferred another candidate, but Kerry is MLK, FDR, and Mohatma Gandhi combined compared to Shithead.

[Democat]

7. Kerry was not my first choice either, but I support him all the way!

We must get rid of Bush!

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

14. Maybe he just reconsidered his position

after thinking about his career for 30 years.

You really think you are defending Kerry by saying he's reconsidering his previous anti-war crimes position now hat he's older?

How is that any better?

[Democat]

17. You can face reality or you can deny reality

If you are trying to bring down Kerry, then the result is Bush winning.

That's it. There are two people running - one will win and one will lose.

Don't like it? Too bad. We all have to live with it.

I wish we had a different system sometimes too, but we don't.

Knowing the way the current system works, like it or not, wouldn't our effort best be spent trying to help, rather than undermine, the one person who has any chance of beating Bush?

As far as your repeated use of right wing talking points, have fun with it, but realize what you are doing. You are repeating what the right wing told you.

[TLM]

24. So any criticism of Kerry is right wing talking points...

I see.

If the choice is to fall in line behind Bush or fall in line behind Kerry... I say fuck both your lines.


I reject the premise. Bush will win or Kerry will win... either way it's business as usual in DC.

The Kerry folks worked so hard to keep people like me out of the process... to silence any of the candidates who had any potential for real change. And now you want my support to help you prop up this corrupt system with yet another luke warm status quo DC insider corporate whore?

Fuck that.

Your candidate has to earn my vote. He doesn't get it by default simply by being the 2nd worst candidate running.

If your candidate can not inspire the voters to vote for him... that's his fault, not the fault of the voters for daring to commit the heinous crime of having higher standards.

The people who are really helping the right wing are those who continue to let fear and ignorance lull them into compliance with a system that continue to spoon feed us candidates on a slow race to the bottom of the fucking barrel.

[zoeyfong]

59. Kerry is a pathetic alternative to Bush, so who cares?

In 2004 Democrats had the opportunity to present voters with a clear alternative to the disasterous bush administration, but true to the spineless nature of this party, they chose to go with somebody who, at least recently, has seemed determined to not to let any daylight show between him and president bush. His criticisms of the bush administration are hollow and without effect, and he offers no bold alternative plans, only suggestions that this or that be tweeked around the edges.

I am seriously thinking about switching my party membership to independent. I'm sure many here would say good riddens, but they ought to take note of the fact that the democratic party has been steadily losing membership for years; we used to be a solid majority nationwide, now we are about even with republicans. We have also been moving right and watering-down traditional liberal positions for years.

[mouse7]

65. Read post #58 n/t

[Piperay]

70. Self-deleted

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

10. So Kerry didn't say it?

Or did he and you're just trying to avoid addressing it by attacking one of the half dozen shows that ran the clip of it today?

[sandnsea]

28. Out of a 1 hour show

You refer to a 2 second clip out of a one hour show to make a case. Rove couldn't do better himself. TDS was really cute, but that's what it was meant to be, cute. Not a report. Why's it so important to you to piss on Kerry?

[TLM]

30. So did he say it or not?

Again you attack one of the many shows that replayed clips... without addressing that Kerry did in fact do exactly what I said he did.

care to try again?

[sandnsea]

35. Read it all

Where did all that dark hair go, Tim? That's a big question for me.

You know, I
thought a lot, for a long time, about that period of time, the things we said, and I think the word is a bad word. I think it's an inappropriate word. I mean, if you wanted to ask me have you ever made mistakes in your life, sure. I think some of the language that I used was a language that reflected an anger. It was honest, but it was in anger, it was a little bit excessive.

Well, let me just finish. Let me must finish. It was, I think, a reflection of the kind of times we found ourselves in and I don't like it when I hear it today. I don't like it, but I want you to notice that at the end, I wasn't talking about the soldiers and the soldiers' blame, and my great regret is, I hope no soldier--I mean, I think some soldiers were angry at me for that, and I understand that and I regret that, because I love them. But the words were honest but on the other hand, they were a little bit over the top. And I think that there were breaches of the Geneva Conventions. There were policies in place that were not acceptable according to the laws of warfare, and everybody knows that. I mean, books have chronicled that, so I'm not going to walk away from that. But I wish I had found a way to say it in a less abrasive way.

Alot of those stories have been documented. Have some been discredited? Sure, they have, Tim. The problem is that's not where the focus should have been. And, you know, when you're angry about something and you're young, you know, you're perfectly capable of not--I mean, if I had the kind of experience and time behind me that I have today, I'd have framed some of that differently. Needless to say, I'm proud that I stood up. I don't want anybody to think twice about it. I'm proud that I took the position that I took to oppose it. I think we saved lives, and I'm proud that I stood up at a time when it was important to stand up, but I'm not going to quibble, you know, 35 years later that I might not have phrased things more artfully at times.


I don't see how in the world anybody could have a problem with this. He was not accusing soldiers of war crimes at the time, he was accusing the policy makers of creating war tactics that caused the troops to unknowingly commit war crimes. So he says he wishes he would have been more selective in his words. So as not to hurt the soldiers who were only carrying out orders that they didn't know were against the Geneva Convention in the first place. And if you haven't been in a war, you have no idea what you would or wouldn't do and have no basis for judgment.

[TLM]

53. First off the joke was tasteless and just plain DUMB

way way out of place for this serious issue.


And again as kerry does... he takes one step left and one right... he rides the fence.

What he said was true, but still he hedges it and says that he used the wrong words and that he should have been more artful. Which is what bugs me about him... one man's "artful" is another mans sugar coated soft sold bullshit.

There were war crimes and Kerry was right to say it and he was right to be angry... but he can't just say that. He has to spend half his answer giving one way and the other half pulling back so by the end he's right in the middle.


Honestly his aswer was typical... same Kerry we've seen for years. He's for it, but against it... he supports it but does;t support it... same old crap.

But there's no excuse for that joke. He joked about his fucking hair when asked about war crimes... jesus fucking christ.

[sandnsea]

55. Whaaaa

Dean didn't win. Whaaaa. That's honestly all I hear.

He said he wished he'd been more selective in the way he presented his case. That's all. So that the troops wouldn't have felt like he was accusing them of anything. He was attacking the policy makers, not the troops. He wishes he would have been clearer about that. Why is that so hard to understand? Or accept?

And the only clip I've seen of this hair remark at all was on TDS.

Your guy lost. It is really time to get over it.

[JI7]

31. because Kerry beat his candidate

in the primary.

[TLM]

34. Funny how personal shots at me and attacks on Dean

Are the only way you seem to be able to defend kerry.


And the fact is I didn't like Kerry before he beat Dean... which is one reason I supported Dean and not Kerry.

So acting as if my dislike for Kerry's pandering fence riding crap is somehow based only on his defeating Dean, is a cheap and desperate ploy to avoid addressing criticisms of Kerry by attacking me personaly.

[JI7]

39. yeah, i know you didn't like Kerry

i always loved him and i love that he beat dean. although dean would most likely have lost even without kerry in the race.

[TLM]

42. And regardless of bush or Kerry winning..

The Bush pro-war, pro-patriot act, pro-no child left behind agenda still wins because BOTH of the candidates supported it.

I find it not at all surprising that someone so happy about an outsider voice being shut out of the race, would have no problem with a candidate who supports so muh of Bush's agenda.

[JI7]

45. i thank Al Gore, Bill Bradley, and Tom Harkin

for endorsing dean. dean had the biggest names from the establishment behind him, yet he still fucked up and imploded. well, at least he can't accuse the establishment of being against him. one of the funniest things i saw during the primary was when dean attacked kerry for being a washington insider and voting for patriot act, no child left behind and iwr, and right after that praising tom harkin for being different even though tom harkin voted for the patriot act, no child left behind and iwr.

[TLM]

47. And again... why is it you think that to attack Dean

somehow answers criticism of Kerry?

[JI7]

49. hahahha

same reason i don't need to take seriously "criticisms" of kerry from right wing assholes who don't like kerry anyways. i know they don't really care about the issue and are just looking to attack him.

[TLM]

51. Well so you admit you're not debating...

and simply flaming.

So what's the point of responding to you?

Those who refuse to even process criticism of their candidate ... well debating them is rather like trying to convince a KKK member that racism is a flawed philosophy. Since they did not reach their conclusions based on reasoned evaluation, then reason is hardly an effective tool in changing those conclusions.

[JI7]

57. debating ?

hahhaha, calling kerry in your post swarmy and flip flopper fence sitter etc, and you expect me to take the "crticisms" seriously and debate ? hahhaha. it's like right wingers who support bush attacking kerry and questioning his military service and the extent of his wounds.

[zoeyfong]

64. Another solid defense. All attack, all the time is not going to

bring people to the democratic party. This party needs to develop a strong, consistent, morally defensible platform and do the work to sell it. ABB screaming is no substitute for that.

[mouse7]

66. Read post #58 n/t

[zoeyfong]

61. Stop making sense.

[mouse7]

67. Read post #58 n/t

[sandnsea]

46. The campaign is OVER

You can drop the political rhetoric now. I'm sorry Howard didn't send you your marching orders on that subject, he really should have.

Howard Dean didn't support pulling the troops out of Iraq. Howard Dean didn't support repealing all the Patriot Act. And Howard Dean didn't support repealing all of NCLB. So why the hell did you support Dean again? I really never figured that out.

Campaign rhetoric. Politics. Get it?

[TLM]

48. Then why continue to attack Dean...

as if that somehow ammounts to a defense of Kerry?

"Howard Dean didn't support pulling the troops out of Iraq."

Yeah he did.... and replacing them with UN troops.


"Howard Dean didn't support repealing all the Patriot Act."

No, he simply opposed renewing it. Whereas Kerry voted for the fucking thing.

"And Howard Dean didn't support repealing all of NCLB."

Nope just the rediculous parts.

Did you have a point other than changing the subject from Kerry?

[sandnsea]

54. Post #35

You still haven't answered it. But you sure have a need to keep raving about Dean. It's your problem, not mine. I just find it comical that you can't see that you just listed Kerry's position on Iraq, Patriot Act and NCLB. So why not support Kerry? Dean would have voted for Patriot Act too, he already said so. Dean would have voted for Biden-Lugar and we would have had a war, he already said so. Dean didn't support NCLB. But he wouldn't repeal all of it either, just like Kerry.

Say it with me. Campaign rhetoric. Politics.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

63. Read post #58 n/t

[DustMolecule]

4. He's not the nominee....

...only the nominee hair-apparent ;-)

[rockymountaindem]

6. Relax...

one moment he's too wooden and the next he shouldn't be making jokes!

Some people refuse to be placated.

[TLM]

12. He was still wooden....

The joke wasn't funny... it came off as a desperate attempt to try and deflect a serious question about how his current positions and policy directly contradict his past positions.

Jokes a fine... just not when you're trying to avoid answering questions about war atrocities. That's the same crap bush does when he's asked a serious question.

[rockymountaindem]

13. Ok, if you can't see the difference

between Kerry making a glib remark and then giving a serious, reasoned answer and Bush just dodging the question entirely, then you're just lost, man.

What else can I say?

[TLM]

15. Kerry's serious reasoned answer...

was one long backtrack. Basically blaming his previous comments on the ignorance of youth.

When the fact is I think back then he was more willing to tell the blunt truth about the mistakes politicians were making with war... and now he's just another one of those politicians makin the same mistakes.

Now he has to sugar coat the truth, flip flop and backtrack. Because he has become exactly what he used to fight against.

[JI7]

21. he didn't backtrack on aything

he said those words were honest. he said the war crimes have been proven to be true.

[TLM]

25. But that he shouldn't have used those words...

Because acusing people of war atrocities who had commited proven war attrocities wasn't very nice.


In other words... 30 years of being a politician has taught him to sugar coat the truth for political advantage. IOW he's learned since then to ride the fence.

[Guaranteed]

16. LOL, well, you know...

there's a time and a place for jokes....

I dunno..it seemed out of place, to me.

[Old and In the Way]

18. Well, I'm sure if he knew you were watching the program, he'd have

answered that differently. Seriously.

I guess being an integral player in getting the last major war stopped don't mean a lot to you, eh? He's "just like Bush" in that regard, too.

I suspect that presidential politics is a little too shallow for you. When someone has to appeal to 250,000,000 people, there's a good chance that you won't agree with every position or statement that the nominee makes. Of course, if he did cater to your needs, he'd be assured of at least 1 vote.

[JI7]

19. he answered the fucking question and said what he said was TRUE

he said his words were honest. when russert tried to claim the war crimes accusations were false, kerry corrected him and said much of that has been proven to be true. the only thing he did was say he could have spoken differently and considered others feelings, especially other soldiers.

[TLM]

26. Yeah... he could have done then what he does now...

ride the fence.

Even when he was right... he says he should have sugar coated the truth.

He couldn;t just flat out say... I was right and I was proven right. The fucking truth hurts. Because had he done so it would have made his current support of vietnam part II look rather hypocritical.

[sandnsea]

36. Or he could have gone skiing, hehe n/t

[TLM]

38. Quick can't defend Kerry....

so attack Dean...


Haven't you heard... Dean's out of the race.

Can't hide Kerry's fuck ups and fence riding behind attacks on Dean any more.

[JI7]

40. Dean fucked up and imploded

[TLM]

41. Quick attack Dean more...

Change the subject from Kerry's flip flops which you can't defend.

[JI7]

44. and Dean STILL fucked up and imploded

with what you claim are kerry's flip flops, and Dean STILL fucked up and imploded. not that he would have won without kerry in the race. in that case it would most likely have been john edwards. or maybe wes clark who was anti war, but who dean attacked as being republican and supporting a war after wanting him to be his vp.

[TLM]

50. Oh i get it....

Since you have no defense for Kerry... you're just going to fall back on Dean bashing and keep repeating the same tired attacks in the hope of getting me to mae some personal attac that can be alerted on, right?

No attacks on Dean will change the FACT that Kerry bent over for bush and supported his agenda for three years, then sudenly flip flopped for the campaign. No ammount of attacks on Dean will change the fact Kerry is just another poll driven status quo supporting political hack... the worst kind of empty compromise.

Nor will it change the fact that Kerry winning will change very little... as you pointed out the candidates who represented change were quickly shut out of the process in favor of the guy who won't change the status quo.

[JI7]

56. i thought it was great when Dean complimented Tom Harkin

for being unlike john kerry who voted for patriot act, iwr , and no child left behind even though tom harkin voted for all those things himself.

[mouse7]

58. Horseshit. You don't have anything on the line.

I've got $800 a month in prescription that I need to be taking. Kerry loses, they won't be covered and there's a good chance I won't make it to the next presidency.

You want to play mental masterbation and dress-up radical, do it elsewhere. Go hang out on infoshop.org news board and play pretend anarchist with all the other wannabees who will talk all day and never do a fuckin' thing.

[zoeyfong]

68. What do you think Kerry is going to do about your bill? Besides,

thanks to kerry, a whole lot of other people have already gone to early graves. What about them???? Btw, I *will* do an f-ing thing; i will vote for someone other than bush or kerry.

[mouse7]

69. zoeyfong, you don't know any fuckin' issues, do you?

whine, whine, whine, and then it turns out you don't know what the fuck you're talkin' about. No big surprise there. So... READ...

Providing Quality Health Care and the Right to Live in the Community
High quality, accessible, and affordable health care should be a right for every American, and is especially important for people with disabilities. John Kerry's plan will:

(1) PROTECT AND STRENGHTHEN MEDICAID. John Kerry is firmly opposed to the Bush Administration's proposals to slowly but surely defund and turn Medicaid into a block grant to the states. Kerry's plan gives states money to invest in Medicaid, so that the health and independence of more than 10 million children, adults and older Americans with disabilities throughout our country can improve.

(2) PASS THE FAMILY OPPORTUNITY ACT. No parent should have to turn down a job or give up the custody of a child to ensure that the child gets health care. In a recent survey of 20 states, 64 percent of parents with children with disabilities reported that they turned down jobs, raises, and overtime pay to remain under the income limits required to qualify for Medicaid coverage. John Kerry strongly supports the Family Opportunity Act, which gives states the option to expand Medicaid coverage for children with disabilities up to age 18 in families with incomes up to 250 percent of the federal poverty level (or $46,000 per year for a family of four). It also grants immediate access to Medicaid services for those children with disabilities who are presumed eligible for SSI.

(3) FULLY IMPLEMENT THE OLMSTEAD DECISION. People with disabilities and older Americans must receive the support they need to live in their own homes and communities. John Kerry believes that states must be given increased resources and tools to carry out the Olmstead decision and must be held accountable for doing so.

(4) ENSURE REAL PRESCRIPTION DRUG COVERAGE UNDER MEDICARE. The prescription drug plan that just passed is less about prescription drug benefits and more a prescription to benefit big drug companies. John Kerry's plan will lower prescription drug costs, make sure seniors and people with disabilities on Medicare can choose their doctors instead of forcing them to join an HMO, ensure beneficiaries can get quality wrap around services through Medigap, and ensure that there is always a Medicare-run plan with a guaranteed premium in every area.

(5) ENACT MiCASSA AND THE MONEY FOLLOWS THE PERSON ACT. Americans with disabilities must be assured equal access to quality home and community living services. John Kerry is an original cosponsor of MiCASSA and the Money Follows the Person Act. Passage of both of these bills is vital to ending the institutional bias that makes it impossible for millions of Americans to exercise the most basic of human liberties: freedom, choice, and independence. Kerry supports increasing funding for independent living centers, areas agencies on aging and similar local organizations to build capacity and support people with disabilities in moving out of or keeping from needlessly going into a nursing home or another institution. John Kerry will work to provide decent wages and benefits to the community based services workers who help make independence possible.

(6) ADOPT A COMMUNITY FIRST POLICY IN AMERICA. There is an institutional bias that must be reversed to ensure that Americans with disabilities of every age have the services and supports to live in the community of their choice. To do this, John Kerry will appoint a national bipartisan Community First Commission made up of Members of Congress, Governors, distinguished older Americans, veterans, Americans with disabilities and other experts. The commission will identify short and long term policy reforms that could and should be pursued to:
Guarantee that all Americans with disabilities who can live in their community with affordable supports have equal opportunity to do so regardless of age, disability, State of residence, employment status or form of assistance required.
Create a greater federal role in equitably financing and enhancing the quality and appropriateness of all long-term services.
Eliminate the institutional bias in Medicaid and Medicare that robs millions of Americans of their most basic freedoms, dignity and daily independence.
The commission will submit findings and recommendations to the Kerry Administration and the leadership in both houses of Congress by July 26, 2005 - the 15th anniversary of the ADA.

(7) ENHANCE MEDICARE. The federal government has a critical role to play to assure that workers with disabilities have the insurance coverage they need to be as independent and productive as possible. John Kerry believes we should enhance coverage for employed beneficiaries with disabilities. He will work to eliminate the two-year waiting period to become eligible for Medicare and expand coverage for certain other competitively employed individuals with disabilities. John Kerry would also modernize Medicare benefits to include inpatient and community rehabilitation services, community transition services, mental health parity, durable medical equipment, and skilled home health service. He will direct HHS to fund a series of demonstrations aimed at identifying cost effective ways that best promote the health, independence and productivity of people with disabilities and to improve upon the permanent risk adjustment payment system to promote better health care.

(8) ENSURE MENTAL HEALTH PARITY. John Kerry believes we need to require full mental health parity once and for all. Not just mental health parity for certain benefits or certain mental health conditions or with unnecessary loopholes that allow insurers to skirt their responsibility. He will fight to pass full mental health parity legislation.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/awd/healthcare.html

Voting for someone other than Kerry means you're doing nothing but pointless intellectual masterbation with your vote, and you're helping make sure that Bush gets elected and me and others like me will not get the medications and health care we need.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

72. No, they are.

Unfortunately, there just isn't a word that better describes the meaningless self stimulation these individuals are engaging in.

[Hav]

73. hahaha

I agree, there is no better word to describe what they do.
What a pitiful performance. Can't they keep it private when they have to do it...;).

[sandnsea]

43. Quick, read post #35

Respond there. This was a joke. Don't even have a sense of humor do ya? Maybe that was part of the problem. Grandiosity.

[Moderator]

74. I am locking this......

The point of this thread has been made and all
we have now are personal attacks or implied personal
attacks.


Thank you.

DU Moderator