As a Catholic, I've had to listen for years as certain jackasses in collars

[hedgehog]

have denounced contraception and told me that "homosexuals are inherently disordered" and that only celibate males can celebrate Mass. I ignore the jackasses and listen to those who are living examples of the Good News. There are even some priests who are right most of the time and astoundingly wrong on one or two issues. As A Catholic, I am reminded that I, too am not perfect. I'm still a Catholic.

[fbuzz]

1. You Ran For President, Put Him On Your Campaign, And Was Mentored By Him For 20 Years too?

Wow! What are the odds?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. The same odds that you've been tombstoned.

[goddess40]

2. religion isn't ala carte, it's all or nothing

nor is it a democracy that the members can change it's a top down dictatorship. If you're a member then, technically, you support all it's tenants. I know the vast majority of Catholic's that I know do it the Ala Carte method but the leadership still takes their membership as 100% support for all their rules.

[LTR]

5. Funny

I know very few people who agree with their pastors 100%.

[theredpen]

7. The term is "Cafeteria Catholics"

Conservative Catholics hate hate hate "Cafeteria Catholics" but the Catholic Church is a big tent, even if Pope "I was just following orders" Benedict XVI wants to make it smaller.

Just look at the Jesuits. They do all sorts of disruptive things. They hung out with Sufis during the Crusades, they were welcomed into Japan in the 1500s, they accepted Native Americans as Brothers in the 1600s and in the 1700s, a Jesuit tried to integrate Confucism into Christianity.

Every few hundred years, the papacy says, "Enough of your apostacy! Disband!" and they say, "We don't report to you, you're just the bureaucracy. Shag off."

[reflection]

8. I have to disagree with you on that.

I don't check my identity at the door to my church. In fact, my church (which is a Disciples of Christ branch) encourages each member to study the Bible, try to take it in the context of 1) who wrote it 2) when they wrote it, and 3) why they wrote it, while also studying the etymology of the original passages. It can be particularly maddening sometimes. Translation upon translation upon translation. :)

[hedgehog]

10. It is my observation that there are two groups of people who insist

the "it's all or nothing"

1. Conservative supporters of the hierarchy (although oddly enough they tend to ignore the just war doctrine and option for the poor!)

2. People who dislike all organized religion or a particular sect.


BTW- the only required beliefs are encapsulated in the Nicene Creed. Everything else; the papacy, clerical celibacy, contraception, whatever; is up for grabs and subject to change.

[JerseygirlCT]

13. Since when?

Of course it is.

It's a congregational way to practice what is a personal relationship. Of course it's a la carte. Some of those in power just don't like to admit that.

People are *always* individuals.

Look, I left the Catholic Church because of its misogyny. Couldn't raise children to think there's anything ok with that. I joined another church. But do I agree with everything my pastors have said? Do I agree with every decision that church makes? No. And I'm not expected to, either.

[redqueen]

17. Uh, it's not just "Catholic's".

And despite your desire to do so, you don't get to tell others what their adherence to or participation in any religion entails or requires from them, personally.

[skater314159]

21. And you claim to speak for the Goddess?

I think that paganism goes against your statement... and it sounds like you ARE a pagan.

Maybe you shouldn't say things about others' faith and religions that you don't want stated about your faith.

[goddess40]

23. I'm a recovering catholic

although I never really bought into all the hocus pocus nor could I stomach the disrespect that they afford the women of the church.

[theredpen]

26. Some of the most respected Catholics are women

Being clergy is piffle compared to being a Saint.

Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing that out.

[BlackVelvet04]

3. did you ask one of them to mentor you for 20 years? n/t

[theredpen]

11. In another "Wright" thread

Someone spoke of a dear Rabbi who had provided years of counsel and support, which he gratefully accepted despite the fact that the Rabbi was a Bush-supporting right-winger.

Human relationships are complex and pastoral relationship is doubly so. There is more to Rev. Wright than the snippets of heated rhetoric being pushed by the right wing noise machine (and their willing accomplices here on DU).

[JerseygirlCT]

15. Yes, exactly.

Why this rush to knee-jerk reactions? Why are all these seemingly intelligent people at DU suddenly becoming what they've fought for years?

[4_Legs_Good]

29. I lived with one (a Catholic Priest at a Newman center) for a couple years

and he certainly was a mentor of sorts. He said all kids of sh*t I didn't believe in, but also some words of wisdom I will never forget and taught me a lot.

In the end he committed suicide after being accused of child molestation 20 years previous.

Now that's the kind of thing that could come back and bite me in the ass if I ever ran for President. I lived with and was mentored by a probable pediphile priest.

Does that sound fair?

David

[Straight Shooter]

4. Did you consult their counsel before making "bold political moves"?

Do you consider them your "moral compass"? I'm a Catholic (lapsed Catholic), but it was never the Church that guided my morals, because if it were, I'd be an anti-choice, anti-fornication, Pope-loving congregationist.

The only thing the Church ever really did for me was give me a great appreciation for statuary art, incense, and stained glass. :D

[theredpen]

12. Ah smells and bells

:D

It sounds like you had a crappy church because the Church offers moral guidance on a lot more than what you listed. There are social justice issues, just war doctrine... lots of things. My favorite is Liberation Theology, a brand of which is preached by Rev. Wright.

As for the rest, I refer you to answer #11.

[JerseygirlCT]

14. As a former R. Catholic, I can say that the church *did* guide my morals

I learned about things like social justice and our obligations to help those with less there.

The other stuff you mention? I also learned enough to realize it was man-made bs, and I left when I couldn't take any more of it.

The point is that there is good to be found in many places, and no person is perfect, just as there is room for all of us to be redeemed.

[azmouse]

6. I think you are representative of most people who belong to a church.

My husband is Catholic; I am not. But while he would never leave his church, he still does not agree with all the stands they take. Since I was not raised Catholic (and I don't agree with the things that church preaches) I have chosen not to join. That was an easier choice for me than it would be for my husband to leave the church and join another.

I understand your point. Obama's choice of church is his own. He may not agree with everything said there but he finds spiritual support in that community.

[theredpen]

9. This is a perfect example of a point I've been trying to make here

You don't just leave a church because your particular priest, pastor or rabbi has views you dislike.

The UCC itself is not about hating white people (or any people). The UCC is the only major Christian denomination that fully recognizes gay marriage. How many people who complain about Christian homophobia have also attacked "Obama's crazy church"?

Rev. Wright isn't a racist anyway, despite assiduous attempts to paint him as one.

[LostinVA]

16. I know at least two DUers who were devout Catholics who left over what the OP says

One is me. I couldn't stay part of a community that condemned me.

The other is a long-time DUer who can "out" themselves on here if they want. They walked out in the middle of an anti-gay homily rant by their priest.

[hedgehog]

18. The way I figure it, my family remained Catholic in the face of 700

years of active persecution by an occupying force. I'm not about to let a group of ignorant, misogynistic homophobes drive me out now. The hierarchy is about to collapse. You want to talk about a priestr shortage? What happens in 10 years when there's a bishop shortage? It's going to be a rough ride, but the Body of Christ will endure.

[theredpen]

19. I attend an Episcopal Church full of gay ex-Catholics

But I also considered a nearby Catholic church which had obvious gay couples as well. (I'm not gay myself, but I consider the ability of gays to be themselves as a useful barometer of the kind of values I hold.) I felt more "at home" in the Episcopal church, so I stuck with that.

Switching denominations is an option, but as hedgehog points out, some people feel that they shouldn't be forced to give up their church to those people. They deserve to be in the Church (Jesus, said so, after all) and they're not going to be cheated out of their rightful place by bigots.

I really admire people who hold that position; I often wonder whether I should celebrate with the refugees or suffer with those still on the front lines.

I don't think that Rev. Wright's positions place Barack Obama in nearly as large a quandary as Catholics who support reproductive choice or gay rights are in.

[busymom]

20. Have you ever considered

finding a more progressive catholic church that meets your needs better? We have a handful of catholic churches here and though the priests stick to the catholic dogma .... there are definitely those that are more progressive.

I would never go to a church for spiritual nourishment just to sit through lectures/sermons about things that I don't believe.

And maybe...the catholic faith isn't where you belong.

Think people, Think!

[scheming daemons]

27. Not everyone feels, as you apparently do, that they must agree with their church 100% of the time...

...

There isn't a church in existence that would fill that bill for me.


I go to the church I go to because of inertia. I was baptized there, married there, and my kids were baptized there... and it's habit.

When the pastor does or says something that I don't like... I roll my eyes or simply tune it out.


But I don't quit the church over it.


I'm a catholic who believes in pro-Choice, contraception, gay marriage, and eating meat on friday. But I'm still going to the same church.... even after our former pastor resigned in disgrace after rumors of pedophilia.


I understand COMPLETELY where Obama is coming from when he says he disagrees with his pastor on lots of things. It's still not a reason to quit your church, necessarily.

[theredpen]

28. That is an obvious consideration and the answer is yes

If I may answer on hedgehog's behalf, she's discussed her particular tale of woe regarding her church in either the Christian Liberal group or the Catholic Group many months ago. Naturally, all these points and suggestions were brought up.

She's short on options, as I recall.

[goletian]

22. lol, obama is a democrat not a republican, why do his religious ties matter?

hes not religious zealot, check his voting record. and if youre turned off by the pastor, open the bible! there is way worse stuff in there! this whole circus is a bunch of nonsense.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

24. I've been waiting for someone like you to stand up. Thank you! Well said.

[Catherine Vincent]

30. What does you being a Catholic and what you listen and agree with

have to do with General Discussion-Primaries?

[theredpen]

31. It's an oblique reference to the Rev. Wright flap.