If your Priest or Pastor is caught molesting children, should you be held responsible for this?

[JackORoses]

Should you be accused of supporting pedophilia?

No and No.

Guilt by Association is the last bastion of those who have no real ammunition to use.
This tactic is despicable. It will fail miserably.
Nice try, Hillary.
You will not be able to ride this to the nomination. It such a shame that this is what you now focus your campaign upon.

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. If you keep attending his church? Yes you are n/t

[noel711]

20. In most cases, pastors investigated for sex crimes...

are removed from the parish.

A church is NOT the pastor. A church is a community of faith.
The pastor is the leader and the speaker.
A pastor is never perfect, a sinner just like the members.

In most cases, when a pastor is removed from the pulpit for
pedophilia, the congregation stays together for healing
and moves on with new leadership.

But you can't blame the members for a pastor's crimes....

That's like accusing all the residents of New York for
the bizarre behavior of Eliot Spitzer.

[Fredda Weinberg]

29. Wright retired. No one removed him or condemned his word until

they became public.

If NYers, including me, had encouraged Spitzer to stay, you could blame us. But we just watched an orderly transition ... Obama isn't giving you that cover. Sorry.

[KneelBeforeZod]

31. In most cases, child molesters aren't public about their molestation ...

Thus the congregation would not be responsible, because they didn't know. In this case, the offending statements were made publicly, and in full view of the entire congregation. It would be as if the congregation KNEW their pastor were a molester, and continued to seek his spiritual guidance.

At the very least -- even IF Obama doesn't agree with a word of this, this indicates a SEVERE lack of judgement on Obama's part. He's a political figure with high aspirations, he should know better than to attend a church where such things are being said regularly. Playing this off as a "crazy uncle" won't work either -- you don't choose your crazy uncle, you select your pastor. And, presumably, if you attend his church for 20 years, you agree with his doctrine.

This is a mess.

Z

[noel711]

54. If the congregation knew...??

In my experience, I've know far too many congregations
where the pastor was guilty of sexual misconduct.
(yes, it happens! Far too many? yes, even more than
one is far too many. But in my experience,
I've know about half a dozen cases where there
was what is termed "sexual misconduct." This term
is used usually for someone who is a philanderer.
The abuse of children is especially treacherous,
and in my denomination, the perps are dealt with
to the full extent of the law, no exceptions.

And the people, when informed, were horrified!
their trust was betrayed, and not a one of them
felt any need to keep that man around.
Not one.

In regard to spiritual advisor,
they too aren't perfect.
They may have good advice about many things,
but the advisees have the sense to know when
to disagree.

[Khaotic]

51. Really? (response to post #1)

So the Catholic church shouldn't exist given the inquision, the dark ages, etc.

I'm not religious, but I know that a church is only a building which houses people of the same religion.

A religion is ONLY a collection of people with similar faith.

No two people have exactly the same faith.

While the catholic religion is guilty of a lot of bad things, those who profess the religion are not guilty of each others wrong doings.

If everyone in a religion were then they would all think alike and do alike. They don't.

Thus why so many catholics rarely go to confession, eat meat on Friday during lent, and have sex like no one's business before marriage.

They share similar faiths, but no in total agreement w/ the CHURCH.

Until a church starts posting excommunication signs in the foyers of all the churches for those who "fall" from the legistlated faith of the church, people will have differences with the church, but will continue to attend services at that church.

If that can no longer be true then everyone needs to become a Unitarian.

I suppose that wouldn't be such a bad thing.

[amandabeech]

57. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think that sometimes

Protestants and Catholics see their denominations, pastors and congregations in a different way.

My family is split between the p's and c's (and yes, I have Irish ancestry, too). The c's think more about Catholicism as a movement and don't seem to get worked up about the particular priest or congregation. The p's, of which I am one, sort of, think about ministers and individual congregations. The p's are the ones that have schismed all over the place after all.

My Catholic relatives, one of whom went p and is now back to c, only talk about individual priests when they talk about how fast the priest can get through the service. I've never heard them talk about the quality of the homily. The p's, on the other hand, talk incessantly about the sermon and the minister (they don't like the hell fire and damnation variety that occasionally shows up even in the northern United Methodist churches that they attend.)

I'll have to test it out, but I think that my c relatives will not question whether Obama should have left that UCC congregation. I think that the p's will think that either he should have found another UCC church or tried to foment a dismissal in this particular congregation.

Any comments?

[Fredda Weinberg]

64. I grew up going to synagogue. I know what my responsibility

If you ignore yours and want to support hate speech, feel free. But you won't find support in the general electorate, thank goodness.

[oviedodem]

2. Its a republican tactic which has now permeated into the Democrats, Politics in

America is at an all time low.

[JoFerret]

59. Your faux outrage is misplaced I think

.

[displacedtexan]

3. If I don't speak up, yes.

[MonkeyFunk]

4. Pretty poor example

IF you keep attending his church, give him tens of thousands of dollars, and talk about him as your spiritual mentor, then yeah, you're sorta fucked up.

[ExtraGriz]

14. wasnt it $25,000 he gave to wright?

[noel711]

24. It's NOT Wright's church.....

It's the people's church.

Of course he is the leader and speaker,
but the people have every right to disagree.

AND when people give offering to the church,
the cash doesn't go to the pastor (who is salaried, and paid
by the church officers and board). The majority of the
cash collected is for missions, and upkeep of the ministies..

[MonkeyFunk]

36. If you think

voters will find that a salient point, god bless ya.

[noel711]

38. Most folks out there don't give a shit....

most folks know very little about church politics,
and base their opinions on Fox.

This is a firestorm based on prejudice,
and it pains me to see a good man, Obama,
get blasted because of the mass misinterpretation
of his pastor.

I agree with most of what the man said.
But we're told it is 'inflammatory'
and thus it will be.

[MonkeyFunk]

46. Then Obama

should give a nationwide address on why "God Damn America" isn't inflammatory.

[noel711]

53. Did you listen to the whole sermon...?

Listen to it, and see if you dont' agree....

This is a very progressive pastor.
He laid a lot of the blame for the disaster
at the feet of Bush, and our complacent culture
of consumerism and self-love.

I agree with most of his statements...

And after 9-11 I preached a sermon that Sunday
that pointed back to the USA, and our lack of
concern for other nations, and lack of compassion
for the forgotten of the world.

No, I didn't say 'God damn America' but there were
condemnations...

I've also preached against the war.
Some folks don't like it.
Too damn bad.

wanna buy a tape of my sermons?
I didn't think so.

I'm not as flashy as WRight...

[MonkeyFunk]

65. I don't want anybody's sermons

I wish all the religious nutters would shut up.

I didn't like when Falwell and Robertson blamed the US for 9/11, and I'm not gonna accept the same argument from a so-called progressive.

[noel711]

76. So I'm a religious nutter...

when I defend another progressive?

My offer to buy my sermons was not serious...

But it sad when progressives... seem not so progressive...

Why am I a 'so called' progressive?

what is a progressive but someone who wants us out of the
situation we are in?

What is a progressive but someone who sees the value in
every human being, and resists racism and oppression?

You have a litmus test for progressives?

[MonkeyFunk]

79. I didn't call you a religious nutter

[Khaotic]

52. A salient point?

What the fuck?

A church rarely belongs to the pastor there.

Very few examples of it.

Maybe if you attend the fucked up church in Kansas, you know the one w/ the mother fucker who tells everyone F*gs Must Die.

It's not a fucking salient point. If you think it is then you're plenty fucked up.

It's pointing out a fact most should realize before it's pointed out.

[MonkeyFunk]

69. Referring to a church as so-and-so's church

doesn't imply ownership.

This is a ridiculous distinction.

[boston bean]

5. Hopefully you would leave if the priest is telling you he what he wants to do to children.

or his sick thoughts.

[JackORoses]

15. what if the preacher tells you all atheists and unbelievers will burn in hell?

Yet, you know an atheist. Does that mean by staying at the Church you are supporting the firey immolation of this person?

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I'd walk out right in the middle of the sermon and

I'd do it dramatically, too, by walking up to the front of the church and walking out one of the side doors.

But my pastor wouldn't preach that sort of hate. And he's a priest, by the way. All priests in charge of parishes
are called pastors.

Edit: FYI, my closest friend is an atheist. We respect each other's views.

[noel711]

27. To what church do you belong....?

Every parishoner doesn't have to agree with everything
the pastor says....

My congregation is open enough to tell me when they disagree
with me.... and I appreciate that input.

YOur logic doesn't hold.

[backscatter712]

6. Wright isn't accused of molesting children. Just shooting his mouth off.

And Obama's already expressed his disagreement with those statements.

Put this one to bed with all the rest of the Obama "scandals".

[TexasLady]

10. Exactly

by this time next week, someone else is going to be in the spotlight for something stupid they said or did.

[Yes We Did]

23. He's "denounced & rejected" just to make Hillary happy.

[backscatter712]

26. Using those words... n/t

[maddiejoan]

7. If he does it in front of you

then --uhm--yeah.

duh.

[Fresh_Start]

8. does he preach pedophilia and you continue to support

him?

[saracat]

9. Are you responsible if you "keep " going to the molestor for spiritual advice"

What about having the "molestor baptize you kid"? Are you responsibe if you say the molestor "inspires you and you dedicate a book to him? Are you responsible if you give the molestor a post in your campaign? Geez.it isn't as though this was just a one time thing and as though this isn't ongoing. Today Obam refuses to take this racist of his African Amreican Religious Leader Committee!This is a tacit understanding that is okaying his remarks just as Obama did with MCCurkin.

[noel711]

33. There's a big difference between having an advisor

that is a sexual predator (which if he is, he should be pulled out of
the parish by his bishop!)...

and an advisor who is a provocative prophetic preacher.

NO sane parent, or parish, would continue the employ of a pastor
who is a sexual predator.

Molester? How is this a parallel to Wright's words?

pastor Wright's controversials sermons were preached years ago;
Do you think he needs to run all his sermons by Obama for approval
in case Obama was going to run for president?

Hell, I don't ask for my parish's approval before I preach.
I've preached some very disagreeable sermons,
especially after Sept. 11, and especially about my
opposition to the War. Does that make me red meat for
removal from my pulpit?

I'ts called preaching justice, which is what I thought
we progressives were supposed to support!
Prophetic preaching is provocative! It should make you think,
it should provoke you to action and justice.

[amandabeech]

66. And which denomination is this?

Have any of your parishioners left for another congregation?

[noel711]

77. In my parish?

yes, because I'm too progressive,
and am not judgmental and narrow.

I don't like to put up walls between people.

I won't condemn homosexuality,
I won't condone racism,
and I won't use the scripture to beat people up.

And those are the people that I gladly send on their way.

[DJ13]

11. I think defending Obama's Pastor is the wrong approach

Obama already distanced himself from Wright's statements months back, just defending either Wright or Obama wont make the goosestepping Hillary supporters back down.

The only approach at this point to take is to go on offense.

Illustrate the Right Wing church Hillary attends in DC and remind people that she is closest friends with people most Democrats would consider our Party's enemies.

[amandabeech]

61. She belongs to the United Methodist Church and attends the Foundry congregation.

She attends an interfaith, and somewhat conservative prayer group that is not affiliated with the UMC.

Let's not tar the UMC with with any of this Fellowship business.

[Zookeeper]

12. If your priest is publically promoting child molestation, yes.

Doesn't anyone on either side have anything better to do than invent "what if's?"

Here's one: What if....John McCrazy is elected because we've all been acting like a bunch of two year olds?

[JackORoses]

17. what is it that Wright is accused of promoting exactly?

[DemBones DemBones]

22. Watch the tapes or read the threads if you don't know. nt

[KneelBeforeZod]

13. Theoretically, the Pastor doesn't preach about the glory of child molestation ...

This stuff is really a disaster for the Obama campaign. This isn't a distant supporter, campaign fundraiser, or minor acquaintance -- this is his supposed spiritual leader of 20+ years. Whether we agree with some of his sentiments or not -- this won't play well in middle America. Videos of this raving pastor next to McCain's "war hero" POW photos will present a stark contrast to independent and flyover voters. Obama doesn't need to win the left to win the election, he already HAS the left. He needs to win the middle against McCain -- a man notorious for his hold on the middle.

Unfortunately, this might make Obama entirely unelectable. For the first time -- I think Hillary Clinton might be a better choice for the Democratic Party to present in November. Prepare for President McCain.

Z

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

16. disaster

I think not. z,z,z,z,z

[KneelBeforeZod]

21. Maybe you're right ...

And, I sincerely hope you are -- but I am not nearly as confident. I still think Obama would be the best President of this group -- but I believe his electability has taken a serious hit here. He needs to win independents from McCain in order to prevail, and this could monumentally damage that ability.

I live in Texas, and a few mild Obama SUPPORTERS I've talked to about this are SERIOUSLY considering changing their support based on this. Nevermind Hillary supporters, moderates, independents, or liberal Republicans who weren't sold on Obama to begin with. This stuff doesn't play well to the masses here in flyover country. As much as we dislike the word "patriotism" -- it matters to people here. He simply cannot win if people are convinced that he's not patriotic. The "Hussein" nonsense and hand-over-the-heart tripe, etc. didn't stick because they were garbage and people saw through it. People simply aren't convinced this is the same-old garbage. His continued attendance at a church with this pastor makes people nervous.

Z

[DemBones DemBones]

32. I think you're right and this has legs, long legs.

The church sells those videotaped sermons and they've probably been taping them for twenty years or more so
we've just seen the tip of the iceberg.

Wright also went to Libya with Farrakhan to visit Qadafi, and calls them both good men!

And a preacher doing pelvic thrusts during a sermon and saying something about 'Bill doing this to us while
Monica was doing it to him'? :wow:

That'll play really well in all those red states that crossover Repubs helped win for Obama.

People in red states go to church more than people in blue states do and I guarantee they haven't seen their
preacher do pelvic thrusts in church, or heard him say "God damn America" over and over, after saying God
should not bless America. I'm waiting to hear how much $$$ he makes. Eight thousand people in his church,
including Oprah, I'm guessing he does pretty well, especially if Oprah tithes.

[KneelBeforeZod]

40. Even weirder than the thrusts ...

>> And a preacher doing pelvic thrusts during a sermon and saying something about 'Bill doing this to us while
Monica was doing it to him'?

... is that was apparently his CHRISTMAS DAY sermon (according to the date stamp I've seen connected with the tape). Not sure how he got there from the birth of Christ. Nothing says "celebrate the birth of our Saviour" like mentioning Monica Lewinsky and doing pelvic thrusts.

Until this -- I was convinced we'd win. But, I've been waiting for the "October surprise". This is it -- and it may sink his political career.

Z

[DemBones DemBones]

18. If you watched him do it over and over, yes, you would be legally

responsible as well as morally responsible.

Barack and Michelle have been watching and listening to this man for twenty years, exposing their kids to him,
too. I wonder if their daughters think all white people are evil? I wonder if they think they live in a terrible
country? I wonder :wtf: Barack and Michelle thought would happen once the media decided to stop fawning and
start investigating.

The media made Obama and now it's their job to break him and assure a win for McCain.

I've told you Obamites for weeks that this would happen. It's a little earlier than I expected, but I knew some
things about Wright and I knew the media would be investigating. They probably have had the tapes for months; the church sells them, you know. And Wright is just one little piece of what will come out. Count on it.

[MediaBabe]

41. I know WTF Michelle and Barack thought

They thought they were different. They didn't feel that they were being fawned over. They thought that this is the way all public figures are treated and that those who are getting a bad shake deserve it.

Now for the rude awakening, and if he is the nominee it will only get worse. I almost feel sorry for them. But then I think of how they smeared Hillary and Bill as racists and my sympathy fades.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. Your One Track Mind Is Obsessed With Hillary. It Is Unhealthy. This Has Nothing To Do With Her.

Open your mind. Just try. It won't hurt. I promise.

And your analogy is fatally flawed. It's also irrelevant.

[JackORoses]

42. sure it doesn't. this has quelled the Ferraro dust-up quite nicely, don't you think?

How does it feel to support Hillary's fatally flawed campaign?

If opening my mind means compromising myself the way you have, I'll pass.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. Oh So Now This Is Some Huge Conspiracy. ROFLMAO!!!!

You're too much!

:rofl:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. Yes, Genius. Everyone's Prejudiced Here. It's All One Big Conspiracy.

God are you silly.

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[JackORoses]

62. not everyone. just those who choose to use Obama's race against him.

Like I said, playing off the prejudices of others is just as racist as holding those prejudices.

Can you understand that?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

67. I Haven't Seen Anyone Here Do Such A Thing. Do You Frequently Make Things Up?

Can you show me a post, quote, or otherwise, that shows anyone here has played off the prejudices of others?

Personally, I think you're making it up, and just using unfounded and absolutely disgusting charges of racism and prejudice left and right towards anyone who disagrees with you, based solely on the fact that you don't have the intellectual capacity to wage thoughtful argument. Yup. I'd say that's probably the case here.

[JackORoses]

70. anytime you or others claim that Obama's race will the prevent him winning the GE

you are playing off the prejudice of others.

anytime you say that Obama's Muslim ancestry will cause him to lose, you are doing the same.
You are betting on the worst in people, and using that to advance your purpose.

It's passive/aggressive.
You get to claim that you aren't racist while at the same time drawing conclusions based on your skewed view of the world in which racism still wields influence in our politics.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Well Since I've Never Come Close To Saying ANY Of Those Things, You're Way Out Of Line.

You're a one trick pony, and you can't even get your facts straight when using your one trick.

How pathetic.

[JackORoses]

78. I can tell I have struck a nerve since you make no effort to defend yourself.

You attempt no discussion.
You seem to be a No Trick Pony.

How are you going to live when Hillary has become an ex-candidate?

[NMMNG]

28. If you know about it and you don't leave the church, yes.

Anybody who continues to attend and otherwise support a church that engages in such behavior, when they know it is occurring, is implicitly or explicitly supporting it.

[JackORoses]

43. are you allowed to attend the Church if the Pastor leaves?

are you forever held accountable for the things he did?

[NMMNG]

60. He's attended the church for 20 years

Wright didn't retire 20 years ago. He retired last month.

And Obama didn't just sit in church and listen to a few sermons. He was very closely associated with Wright over the course of two decades. The man has guided him both politically and spiritually.

The senator “affirmed” his Christian faith in this church; he uses Wright as a “sounding board” to “make sure I’m not losing myself in the hype and hoopla.” Both the title of Obama’s second book, The Audacity of Hope, and the theme for his keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in 2004 come from Wright’s sermons. “If you want to understand where Barack gets his feeling and rhetoric from,” says the Rev. Jim Wallis, a leader of the religious left, “just look at Jeremiah Wright.”

Source


There is no way anybody can claim Obama has nothing to do with Wright, or that he can't be held accountable on some level for his rhetoric. The man spent 20 years in close association with him. If he found anything objectionable over those 20 years he had ample opportunity to speak up or leave. Now that the cat is out of the bag it is a little late to be saying "gee, I don't agree with everything the man says but don't hold that against me".

I sure as hell wouldn't stay in a church that was preaching hate, let alone let the pastor be my close spiritual/political guide and mentor for two decades.

[Unsane]

30. Dumb analogy overload!

There's been a lot of them today.

[DemBones DemBones]

34. Hey, he's one of your crowd!

[Unsane]

37. I don't have a "crowd"

I support Obama, but I'm objective about it. His HuffPo statement and his supposed appearance on Hannity tonight has somewhat assuaged my concerns. Another step is to make sure this pastor has no connection whatsoever to the campaign.

[Umbram]

50. Oooga, ooga, not my clan - you enemy, me thump - oooga. (nt)

[BigDDem]

35. If you continue to go to said church for 20 years

and not disassociate yourself until it becomes public knowledge, you show very poor judgment. That's bad news if judgment is your claim to fame.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

39. If I KNEW he was, and I still supported him ...

personally, and financially, I'd say that I would bear some personal responsibility.

[JoFerret]

45. If you KNEW - yes

Obviously. What a silly question.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. probably the worse example ever

[Umbram]

49. I guess if he's raping children on the alter during mass, then yea? (nt)

[NJSecularist]

55. Guilt by association is a disgusting tactic but it is a Republican tactic.

It is a method that sometimes works.

[JoFerret]

58. Nice try Hillary? rather - shameful try JackORoses

No-one invented this "pastor".
This is not a campaign ploy.


No one made Obama use a quotation for his book.
And etc.

And - BTW - I would be happy with either or both of these candidates.

But it is very reasonable to consider whether this affects OUR chances in November.

[depakid]

63. If you knew about it- and continued to attend the church

and associated with the pastor- then Hell Yes!

Not that this simple truth will make any difference to the Obama über alles crowd.

[Tennessee Gal]

68. You are right.

Obama knew what this man was saying from the pulpit. He could have denounced it long ago. He did not.

[Auntie Bush]

72. "Guilt by Association is the last bastion of those who have no real ammunition to use.

This tactic is despicable. It will fail miserably."

Please remember this when you bash Hillary for Bill's mistakes. If you want people to forgive or distance themselves from his mentor...then you shouldn't hold Hillary responsible for Bill's escapades. Isn't that fair? :shrug:

[amborin]

73. not a good analogy

how about if your pastor advocates pedophelia?

[knixphan]

74. If your husband owes favors to the Saudi monarchy...

...and you're elected to the highest office in the nation...

[Tennessee Gal]

75. Guilt by association that lasted 20 years

and included this minister performing his marriage and baptising his children.

Don't forget that.