An honest question for Sen. Clinton's supporters

[PatGund]

In reading some of the rather.....heated.....debate here, I have seen several times complaints that Sen. Obama "brings too many new people into the party", and dismissive (if not downright insulting) comments about youngsters, college students, and the like.

I'm 42 so I'm not a "youngster" by any stretch of the imagination. And I've been a Dem since I left the LP in the early 90's. What I don't understand is WHY do you people seem to think that bringing new people into the party, bringing youngsters into the political process, is a bad thing??

Not to mention this weird notion that only a few big states should count.

The problem with this country for a long time is very apathetic voters. Which is harmful to the country and the democracy we're representing. Getting new people - even if they're not at first supporting the person you're supporting - involved in the process and active politically, should NOT be a bad thing.

Yet I'm seeing people here say things like "I've been in the party for 20+ years and these newcomers should keep quiet because we know what's best". Or "we've been waiting too long to vote for (name of person here), and the people that support that other person should just wait their turn until we're done". "(person)'s supporters are just lazy college students who won't vote in the GE anyway". And so on....

Can't you see the damage you're doing?? Unless another generation or two of apathetic non-voters is what you want for this country.

What will save this country is getting as many people as possible involved in every state. And the "old coots" in the party should be welcoming this influx of new blood and new ideas into the Democratic party. Not complaining about "waiting their turn" or some such nonsense.

Unless you want to continue being stagnant that is. In which case, you reap what you sow

[Kittycat]

1. Agreed. I've found it very disheartening.

There are young voters involved in both campaigns - certainly one more than the other. But making broad, sweeping statements, denouncing their involvement and excitement - shunning them in a sense - is anything BUT democratic.

[rodeodance]

4. can you read---the post was addressed to Hillary supporters

[Forkboy]

6. Then answer the questions asked of them.

:shrug:

[Kittycat]

10. Yes I can... But we can't expect you to answer, now can we?

I pointed that it's disparaging to both camp's supporters. And I can comment wherever I damn well please.

[JimGinPA]

15. Once Again You Bring Nothing To A Converation

[babylonsister]

20. Don't be so snippy; this is a discussion board.

:spank:

[ruggerson]

59. um, you haven't spanked me in a while

and I'm starting to feel neglected.

[kikiek]

41. Hmm..maybe the question wasn't so honest.

What a surprise.

[PatGund]

46. Actually...

It was a question I asked honestly, without trying to pick on one person or another

[kikiek]

56. Then it is attracting the wrong people.

[PatGund]

57. How so??

[kikiek]

60. It was taken over by people not supporting Clinton. You were asking Clinton supporters. Who will

honestly answer your question when they know they're going to be attacked. Don't you see this happening?

[PatGund]

5. Understand

My worry is if that continues, they'll end up feeling like "second class citizens" in a party that should be representing them as well.

[maddiejoan]

2. My concern is not that they are here now

My concern is that they won't be around in November.

My other concern is that the loyal steady base of older Democrats and women (who vote in larger margins traditionally) will not be adequately reached out to, in favor of these "new faces".
Will they sit at home in numbers that they never have before?

Will these new faces vote straight Democratic down tickets? We won't know until we find out.

[ClassWarrior]

9. Why does it have to be a zero-sum game? Why can't we all win?

Who says that the loyal steady base of older Democrats and women will not be adequately reached out to? Unless that means selfishly, at the exclusion of all others...

In fact, that's the whole underlying premise of the Obama campaign -- that anyone who steps up and gets involved will have a place at the table.

:shrug:

NGU.

[maddiejoan]

16. Like I said it's a concern of mine

November is a long way from here.

I'm not giving an 'answer', I'm posting my concern --and my concern is that new young voters might not be here in November.

From what I've seen from Obama supporters --the older voter is considered to be 'in the way' of progress.

Not a good message.

[ClassWarrior]

18. Then quit looking at supporters and look at the campaign.

I see something very different.

NGU.

[maddiejoan]

22. That's rather presumptive of you

I have looked quite closely at the campaign.

I think it's one of the most vile disgusting underhanded campaigns I've had the misfortune to witness.

[DeadElephant_ORG]

26. Maddy - would you mind telling us your age? jus in round numbers. I genuinely want to understand

[DeadElephant_ORG]

27. I'm 46, by the way. Which happens to be Obama's age.

[maddiejoan]

28. I'm 47

[DeadElephant_ORG]

29. thank you. I don't think of myself as a "boomer". Do you?

[maddiejoan]

30. I think of myself as being in that odd

group between X and boomers.

I'm neither/nor

[DeadElephant_ORG]

33. same

[DeadElephant_ORG]

37. the reason I asked - I want to know who has what "dog" in the generational "fight"

[maddiejoan]

40. I feel like an observer

in this generational fight.

[PatGund]

47. same here

[PatGund]

14. My concern....

I'm not saying you don't have a valid point here.

The problem is that outright dismissal of these "new faces" leaves a block of people - that either nominee will need in the GE - feeling like second class citizens. And if dismissed like this, how many of those new faces will become the "loyal, steady base" of tomorrow??

If these new faces are basically told "shut up and wait your turn", how many will be there when it will supposedly be their turn??

After the convention, there won't be a "his side" or "her side" There will be a "our side". And if we're going to take back our country from the grasp of those who would destroy it, we NEED as many people as we can get on "our side", young and old, of all races and genders. Not just for THIS election.....

....but to build a strong foundation for the elections to follow.

[Igel]

68. As a late comer to the conversation, I'll quip.

My quip is this: There are a fairly large group whose attitude is, "STFU, old-timers, your time is past."

I'm 48. A baby boomer under the first definition (which had the cut-off at 12/31/59), but never much like a baby boomer.

Like baby boomers, the younger generations don't like being told they don't have the ultimate truth, they won't be the saviors of society. Telling them to be patient, that maybe they're wrong, just gets a kick in the teeth. Audacious, to be sure.

[FedoraLV]

51. Then shouldn't we

as campaigns and parties, do our damnedest to see that *all* our supporters will turn out in November -- and long after?

If an organization isn't keeping young people the answer isn't to shrug and say, "Oh, those shiftless young folk" ... the solution is to figure out what you're doing wrong and fix it so the youth contingent stays.

-FedoraLV

[maddiejoan]

69. Where did I blame "the young"?

I blame an insubstantial candidate running with the same substance of a new flavor of breakfast cereal.

All packaging and sparkle --and likely to fade away like any "fad"

[Fresh_Start]

3. I don't think its a concern about new participants

I think its a fear of abandoning traditional members

At various times, Obama has distanced himself from older democrats especially the boomers.
There has been an appearance of ageism especially from obama supporters who have literally said if you don't like Obama just crawl into a corner and die.

While I'm not supporting either Obama or Clinton for my own reasons, I share some of the concerns

[PatGund]

7. Ageism....

The question I would have is ageism - of either direction - worth it?

Wouldn't a better solution be to learn from each other? Both groups of people have much to offer and teach each other - as long as neither side dismisses them out of hand. Or worse, out of a sense of entitlement

[Fresh_Start]

11. if the pie was big enough....but the pie has shrunk

US cannot afford all of Obama's programs so which supporters are going to get the short end of the stick?
I'm guessing he'll abandon the elderly and poor rather than abandon his college supporters.
But I'm a cynic.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. Do the master and apprentice learn from each other?

To a small degree.

There is no replacement for experience and maturity.

[PatGund]

52. To a certain extent, yes......

But at the same time, if someone doesn't have the wisdom to USE that experience (Rumsfeld) or maturity, it doesn't matter what age one is.

I'm 42. I know a lot of people more mature and less mature than I am. Some are older, some are younger. Same with experience. Age does not automatically confer wisdom.

It's just as stupid to dismiss someone's viewpoints or opinions as being "too young" as for being "too old". I'd rather see the young and the old learn from each other.

[DeadElephant_ORG]

36. which generation are you NYCALIZ? Are you personally at risk of being "abandoned" by the party?

[Fresh_Start]

45. me personally no

but I do lots of volunteer work and I see people abandoned by government and society

[helderheid]

8. To the greatest! I'm 33 and my parents are 63 - ALL Obama supporters!

[Whisp]

12. Obama is upsetting the status quo that so many are invested in

either emotionally or financially. the big pols rely on the little ones being emotionally invested and good little vacuous followers.

Obama virtually came out of nowhere to sneak up on the Anointed and overtake her (and her seedy co-workers) unawares.

This is truly a danger to the established one party system - they are not amused at some young upstart shaking up their perfect tag team for so many decades. The gall of him Interfering with their protections of each other (bush/clinton/bush/clinton) and bringing in new voters that may threaten this comfy system the establishment pigs worked so long and hard to filth up to the extent that it is today.

if Obama pulls this off with all that artillery behind the scenes that are against him - he will not only be a great Leader but a true hero to overcome those greatest of odds of succeeding against the PowerHouses

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

13. Bringing new blood into the party is only a problem if they're voting for Obama. OK if it's Hillary

[Arkansas Granny]

17. I have not seen anyone complain about "too many" new people in the party.

I think it's wonderful that young people are getting involved in the political process as they have much more of their future at stake that I do at age 60+. My biggest concern is that the enthusiasm they show now won't translate into a vote in the GE. Polls indicate that those under 25 have the lowest turnout numbers for voting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. I think it's debatable that he's bringing people to the party.

It is very clear that many of "the crossovers" who are voting in our primary, intend to vote for McCain in the general. Is this true for Hillary? Yes, but exit polls suggest that it's to a much smaller degree.

Here are my concerns about Obama:
1) his lack of specificity.
2) his studious avoidance of anything that might make him appear (gasp!) liberal, such as refusing to have his picture taken with the Mayor of San Fransisco.
3) his healthcare plan which has as its main feature, the fact that it's hardly any different than what we have now.

Here are my concerns about many of Obama's supporters:
1) they appear naive to a fault. Witness this thread.
2) they are eminently willing to dismiss critical mistakes ("For the first time, I'm proud of my country")
3) their contempt for americans who have any maturity. "Middle-aged white women" had heroes when they were in their twenties too. There's often a good reason that they have different heroes today - because they grew up.

[DeadElephant_ORG]

34. Lumberjack - Maddy and I just gave our ages. Would you share yours with us?

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. 46

[DeadElephant_ORG]

43. thank you. ... some kind of a trend here. ? tail end of the boom?

[The Night Owl]

23. How many elections do we have to lose before we realize that depending on the youth vote...

How many elections do we have to lose before we realize that depending on the youth vote is a bad gamble? Need I remind everyone that it was the youth vote more than any other voting block which failed to come through for us in 2004? I am tired of waiting for the youth vote to get their asses to the polls.

[DeadElephant_ORG]

31. 2004 ?! "Rock the Vote" and all that. Record numbers of youth voted

They were overwhelmed at the last minute by evangelicals - so called "values voters"

[The Night Owl]

35. Rock the Vote was a failure in 2000 and 2004...

According to AP, only 1 in 10 voters in both the 2000 and 2004 election were in the 18 to 24 range.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/03/MNG5B9KH4C1.DTL

Dismal.

I'm beginning to think that the only reason why young people get involved in campaigns is that they enjoy the social aspect.

[DeadElephant_ORG]

38. hmmm... I'm not as quick at research. Weren't unmarried women the biggest non-voting group?

[cbayer]

24. There is every kind of -ism imaginable on this site

And the vast majority of it is used to bash the "other" candidate and his or her supporters.

That being said, you are getting some excellent responses to your question from both sides.

[PatGund]

48. Which I think is a VERY good thing!

[cbayer]

50. I need some clarification.

Do you think it's a very good thing that we are beating each other with racism, ageism, sexism, and religious intolerance?

Or that the responses the OP is getting is a very good thing?

[PatGund]

54. Well, I AM the OP

And I'm enjoying seeing some honest, constructive answers to the question I posed.

I was trying to be careful with my wording. As I have said in the past, I'm a very relucant Sen. Obama......well, I can't say I'm a "supporter" as much as I can say I find him the least objectionable of the three in the race. But I was genuinely curious as to something I had been seeing, and wanted to make sure I wasn't misreading it.

Besides, having dialog that isn't the "he said / she said" stuff is far more enjoyable in my viewpoint. In the GE, we won't have the luxury of "his side" vs. "her side", it's going to have to be "OUR side" if we want to take back the White House and save this country.

[cbayer]

58. I realized after posting that you were the OP.

My bad.

I think you asked an excellent question and the responses were much more enlightening than most of the conversation going on around here.

And you didn't say anything about the current flamebait topics.

Thank you.

[PatGund]

63. Not a problem

Thank you!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

25. Good luck getting an honest answer.

[DeadElephant_ORG]

32. it's already succeeding. Read this thread!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

42. I thinks it is wonderful that he does this....it's the 1 time Rethug crossover voters and.......

his embracing the rethugs and putting Ronald Reagan above Dems that I take great issue with>

[MethuenProgressive]

44. What a silly strawman you've set up to knock down.

"I have seen several times complaints that Sen. Obama "brings too many new people into the party"

Baloney.

[PatGund]

49. Look Around......

In the last few days, I've seen comments from a lot of people on this forum saying or implying just that.

What set me off was a post from someone saying "they just need to wait their turn, same as we did" Which made me really think on why people would say such a thing.

[Beacool]

53. I'm on my way out the door, but I'll respond briefly.

This is not just about Hillary. I personally don't think that Obama is prepared nor experienced enough to be president at this point in time. Furthermore, I would say the same thing even if Hillary was not in the running.

If he had stayed in the senate and built up his resume, I would have been glad to have considered him and might have even campaigned for him. As it is, I don't think that he is deserving of the presidency. Therefore, I have made up my mind that if Hillary is nowhere on the ticket I will probably not vote or write-in her name.

[PatGund]

55. Personally....

I don't think ANY of the three Senators in the race (Clinton, Obama, or McCain) are deserving of the presidency. I have a list of people who I think would have been far better - and more deserving - in that role.

But the question is not who is more deserving. It's either "who would be best in the role" or even "who would damage the country least in the role"

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. ... Or governor. n/t

[roseBudd]

66. Hopefully SCOTUS won't be a disappointment for you either since mccain

can't be expected to not disappoint you in that regard

[RazBerryBeret]

61. Good Post!

Obama supporter, so you can move on if you're not interested in what I'm saying.

Agree with the OP, I don't understand this attitude. I'm over 40 and have to admit my generation as a whole has not been too politically motivated. We've kind of made a mess of things. These younger people need to step up to the plate NOW, the majority of these issues will affect them almost more than us. ie--100 years in Iraq, who would that be supported if not by a draft? the enconomy, good luck landing that job when you get out of college...etc...

I have worked as an activist in 2000 and 2004, (I came close to being arrested on election day 2004--I'm an Ohioan) but I don't feel that I've done enough... but I have to say I and some of my friends discuss this frequently....WHAT will it take to force Americans to take some role, or at least be interested in our government? We've been through 2 stolen elections, an illegal war, unconcerned about a terrorist responsible for killing over 3,000 americans, we owe china over 571 BILLION DOLLARS and 405 BILLION DOLLARS to Japan, Torture, incredible loss of jobs, illegal wire tapping, historic drops in the stock market, equally historic rise in gas prices...need I go on?

I've been waiting for something to finally tip the balance, make the majority of americans realize this isn't right..this is one of the reasons I'm supporting Obama. His platform is to involve us in our government....I'm willing. Transparency in government so we know what is going on. this appeals to me. and I would really like to see an almost complete turnover in the congress and senate in the coming years, corporations do massive layoffs when they're trying to turn around a business (yeah, I've been through quite a few of them) why can't we do the same?

we seriously need to do things differently, this isn't working for the majority of us!

[jconner27]

64. Here's a better question

It seems like everyone in the so called "progressive" media has drunk the Obama kool aid its either Randi Rhodes doing her best Rush Limbaugh impression for the week, Olbermann taking up his last segment to bitch about Hillary for not backing away from Geraldine Ferraro fast enough for his liking but funny thing happen Friday night he allow Obama to spin out of the same thing he trash Hillary over two days ago. But here's the question for the past couple of months pro Obama caller, pro Obama bloggers, pro Obama posters have stated if Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic nomination they will not vote for her, yet if a Clinton supporter even thinks about saying they will not for Barack Obama they get label has a hater, a person that wants it their way or no way or they want to punish the Democratic party why is that? Obama supporters were prepare to screw over the Democratic party if they didn't get what they wanted, yet Obama supporters will demand unity if Sen.Obama wins.

[roseBudd]

67. It's not koolaid, it's a likeable dem candidate for the first time in a long time

Nobody hated Hillary among dems until she became increasingly obnoxious when she realized she might not be anointed.

What really ticks me off is the subtext of how pitiful white women are, especially the poverty stricken older white women, that Obama is going to let starve to death

White women were burned at the stake in unspeakable numbers

in Europe hundreds of year's ago

White women's faces are in all the unspeakable photos, the lynchings, a white woman's complicity is all over the Emmett Till case. It is white women who are screaming at black students attempting to enter a high school

[RazBerryBeret]

70. disagree...

Obama supporter, no kool aid involved.

and I think there are supporters on BOTH sides who label the opposing supporters as haters. it is definitely NOT one sided.
I was called a sexist on THIS site because I'm a woman who supports Obama....that made me scratch my head. it should be about who YOU think will be the best candidate.
People who say they won't vote in the GE if it's not for their candidate are extremists, but they exist on BOTH sides.

[roseBudd]

65. because the young and new voters are for obama

[NastyRiffraff]

71. There are two sides to this coin.

Personally, I'm thrilled that young people are getting involved in the process, and I give a large part of the credit (not all) for that to Obama. I hope they continue, and that their enthusiasm isn't ONLY for Obama, but for participatory democracy.

I'll keep this to the generational issue instead of going into other, more problamatical, supporters Obama has lured.

While getting new, young voters to participate is a good thing, I'm offended by Obama trashing boomers (of which he is one, albeit on the younger side) to do so. I understand why he did; he knew there was already a generational divide and played on it to bring young voters to his side. Okay, fine. That's politics, yada yada yada. But then, wondering why boomers are offended and then blaming them is pretty ballsy.

No, I'm not against getting new people into the process...young, middle aged, old, whatever. Far from it; the more the better. I take offense, though at taking advantage of distrust of boomers to do so, then blaming the boomers for the continued divide as a result.

[Texas Hill Country]

72. I have heard just as much from the Obama camp on here.