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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:03 PM
Original message
I, too, am a pastor in the United Church of Christ
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 05:05 PM by mycritters2
And thought I'd give my perspective. First, many of you know I am not a supporter of Obama, for political reasons. I'm a progressive populist, quite a bit to the left of him, especially on issues of labor and trade, which I think should be given more attention in this race. I supported John Edwards and am not sure who I support of the candidates left running. I have no favorite here.

As a colleague of Jeremiah Wright, I have mixed feelings about his recently posted sermons. I have a very definite opinion about the one (apparently a Christmas sermon--which seems odd) where he compares Obama's and Clinton's life experience. You know..."she doesn't' know what it's like to be Black", etc. This seems to me to have clearly crossed the line, in terms of 501c3 issues. One cannot endorse a candidate from the pulpit, even if that candidate is a member of the congregation. It's clear to me that he was encouraging his congregation to vote for one candidate over another. This is illegal, and he should be held appropriately responsible. So should his church. I've written my judicatory exec voicing this opinion.

As to the sermons where he accuses the gov't of making drugs available to African Americans and spreading AIDS, where he says "God damn America", well, I'm willing to give him some latitude on these matters. I'm told that these are widespread views among African Americans, and that there may be good reason for them to believe these things. This I cannot judge. I do believe Wright was trying to speak in a prophetic tradition, especially when he says "God damn America". The prophets often had only the strongest condemnations for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. This country is a mess, and someone needs to say so. Loudly and strongly. I believe that was his intention. The Christian pulpit is no place for nationalism. I understand his feelings.

His speaking also comes out of a Black preaching tradition different than my own. The United Church of Christ is a predominantly white denomination, with its roots in the Genevan Reform of the 16th century. My own preaching style reflects this Reformed heritage, but many African Americans have made the UCC their home along with others whose roots do not lie in Europe. We are grateful for this diversity, and accept that each congregation worships in its own way. Rev. Wright is speaking to an African American congregation, using an African American style. This style is more likely to challenge the culture than that of those of us who have, admittedly, benefited from this culture (and yes, its racism). If he seems angry, that doesn't seem like much of a surprise. 400 years of oppression would piss me off, too. I think his preaching reflects this history.

Trinity United Church of Christ is one congregation in a larger denomination. The UCC is a majority white denomination. If Trinity were a separatist church, it simply wouldn't stay in the UCC. I've served on committees with staff and members of Trinity, heard Trinity's choirs sing at Conference meetings and General Synod, had kids from my (very white) congregation come home from church camp with stories of friends they made who belong to Trinity. I've never felt that race was a factor in any interaction I've had with anyone at Trinity. They clearly see all of us as sisters and brothers in Christ--and in the UCC. These are hardly the behaviors or attitudes of separatists.

We in the UCC get used to being told we're not Christian. We were the first modern church to ordain women and gays. As a national expression of the church, we recognize marriage equality. We take stands that even other Christians oppose. So, being attacked is not new. But it is always disappointing.

Finally, a word about Obama's relationship to Wright. Some of you know--and have let me know--that I can be an asshole. It's true. BUt most of the time, I'm a pretty good pastor, committed to preaching Jesus' message of justice, peace, and new life; offering care to those in need, administering a small congregation to the best of my ability. I also have some parishioners who can be assholes. But most are hard-working people of dignity, integrity, and kindness trying to live as they believe the Creator hopes they will. I hope that no one will judge my fine, caring parishioners by my asshole moments. I hope Senator Obama will be accorded the same consideration as regards his pastor, asshole or not.

Say what you will, I continue to be proud to serve a congregation of the United Church of Christ, and humbled by the responsibilities and opportunities this affords me. Yes, I wish Jeremiah Wright were more temperate in his speech. But we each, in this denomination, have freedom of the pulpit. And the heavy responsibilities that brings. But, over all, we're some pretty good folks trying to build the kingdom.

Thanks,

Critters
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for the perspective, mycritters!
:thumbsup:

K&R!
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. You're welcome! Thanks for the k&r. nt
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for the post.
Recommended.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thank you. nt
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Interesting post!
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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. God bless you
My father was a UCC minister and I thank you for setting the record straight
about our denomination.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. You're welcome. I love this church! nt
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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. My non-Christian friends tell me I'm the most "Christian" person they know
Sorry if that sounds like bragging but I think it's more a reflection
of the teachings of the UCC, which parallel "what would Jesus do" more
closely than most other denominations (IMHO).
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. Very thoughtful post
Bless you and your work!
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Thank you! nt
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. thank you very much for the reasoned and considered post.
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 05:13 PM by Texas Hill Country
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. You're welcome! nt
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you for a thoughtful, well-reasoned post.
K/R.



:kick:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. You're welcome! nt
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. My understanding, the Prophets were "rabble rousers" using politically incorrect speech
and questioning the status quo.

Wright is in that tradition.

And what he said is very much in line with what MOST Democrats accept. He just used raw language.
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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. The prophets got in a whole lot of trouble
with the Dominant Powers when they spoke out in truth.

They threw Jeremiah down a cistern coz they didn't wanna hear his preaching.

They cut off the John the Baptist's head coz he condemned that
Herod with pedophiliac tendancies.

And they crucified Jesus because he dared speak up for the forgotten,
the lost and the vilified.

I think Wright is in good company.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. The prophets wrote about social justice
It was the later redactors like Ezra who somehow managed to ossify the Tanakh.
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FREEWILL56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
166. Offshoot question for you.
Were you on the old Charlie Rose forum?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you for your needed perspective. nt
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. how lucky it is being a pastor. I love religion (my last name is
Bishop) and would love to do this myself. Ah, the next life I have I might give it a go. Either that or archaeology. :)
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Lots of clergy begin later in life. More and more pastors are "second career". nt
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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
103. Ah, Rogue...
It's lovely and it's challenging.
Take a few seminary courses, dip your toe in the water,
and let the spirit change your life.

It isn't always easy...
There are times you take a beating...

even here at DU I feel maligned often
for being a pastor. Maybe we need our
own group.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #103
111. There are several of us in the Liberal Christian/Progressive People of Faith DU Group
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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Hi Critters,
Thanks for your perspective, and a dose of history.

One problem with the media bashing Pastor Wright
is that they dont' understand the African American
tradition of prophetic preaching, and thus they come
off as racist.

Be careful; some folks might say because you're
UCC with pastor Wright, you must be a little nutty
too... But I agree with Jeremiah. I'm cut out of the same cloth.

I'm clergy too (Lutheran), and sometimes I get a little
hot around the collar (no pun intended) at some of the
misconceptions of the Church and religion in progressive
circles. Some folks don't know how a Christian can be
progressive.

Keep the faith! Have a good Holy WEek!
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Thank you! Nice to hear from a colleague. Have a good Holy Week!
And welcome to DU!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
149. As a cradle Lutheran, tired of the personal piety, I appreciate reading some words of reason!
Thanks for being a presence, and for helping to keep peoples' noses to the grindstone.

BTW, what do you think of the Network of Spiritual Progressives?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. I think it was a Jeremaiad
It is pretty well-established in the prophetic tradition to warn of God's judgment against the nation if they don't change their ways.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Precisely. nt
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. My mom is a UCC pastor, too
Although I'm a lapsed Presbyterian at heart, I dig that church.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
18. Nicely done.
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 05:19 PM by cbayer
My father is a far-left progressive minister of the Disciples of Christ denomination and we always had close ties with UCC congregations. He remains extremely politically active. He also supported Edwards and is now supporting Obama. I haven't had the opportunity to speak to him about this whole brouhaha, but I can guess what he would say.

I think he would say that ministers lead their congregations but do not represent them. He has always taken stances further left than most of his congregates in order to inspire thoughtful conversation, debate and, hopefully, political action. And he knows his audience and how to get them fired up.

And I think he would re-iterate much of what you have said. Thanks.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. My father's family is all Disciples.
One of my great-great-great (not sure how may greats) grandfathers was actually baptized by Barton Stone. My grandmother was deeply proud of that. I've done interim ministry work for the DOC and wish we'd go ahead and merge, already!! Thanks for your perspective, and give your father my best as we begin Holy Week!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
150. "He has always taken stances further left than most of his congregates "
:applause:

Please give your father a hug for me!!

Oh, that other clergy would have that spine!
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
20. Thamk you
Could you Bless this board?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. I can give it a shot, but I'm not making guarantees!
:)
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. That's all I can ask
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
147. That's really funny... on so many levels!
:rofl:

Thanks.... I needed that today!!!
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. If he had praised Obama without mentioning Hillary Clinton,
...would you still say that Rev. Wright broke the law?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. If he was encouraging people to vote for him, yes.
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 05:23 PM by mycritters2
We are not allowed to endorse candidates in our professional role as pastors. I can tell people, in private conversations, that I like Edwards. I cannot tell them they should vote for him when I'm functioning professionally--and NEVER in a sermon. Wright knows this.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. Thanks so much for sharing your perspective.
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Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
28. K and R thanks. Just one question. Is calling yourself or others an "asshole" a sin?
:evilgrin:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Not if they're really assholes. It's the "bearing false witness" stuff that gets you in trouble.
But anyone who's read DU much at all knows I am, at least occasionally, an asshole. To deny it would be a sin!
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
35. Thank you so much. This is enormously enlightening!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
36.  A fine rundown! I'm PISSED AS HELL, TOO!!!
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 05:30 PM by bobbolink
And, yes, I'd like to see some well-placed anger spoken from the pulpet!

It's waaay past time for tearing down some temple money tables!!

:applause:

The Meek Are Getting Ready!
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. bobblink, I love your passion.
Here, and on the Edwards board. If only more felt the same way!!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Aw, thanks! I'm still trying to dig the nails out of my hands
from some of the reactions I've had!


AND... my KINGDOM for more pastors with YOUR passion!!

:applause:

'course, my kingdom amounts to ... oh, about 3 cents.. hehehe
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I'll take whatever "kingdom" I can get.
Luvya, bobbolink! :hi:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. .
:hug: :yourock: :hug:

I'd really like to be in YOUR church when you get wound up!

:hi:
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
37. Thank you for that wonderful post! I think I tried to check out..
.. the UCC chapters in my area many years ago. Being a reformed Catholic, I was reticent to pick up the religion yoke again, but I had heard many excellent things about your congregation's tenets.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. I started my ministry in Will County.
My first call was in Peotone. I know the pastor in Plainfield, and like her. Not sure who else I know in that area now, but I'd encourage you to visit a church. We are good folks.
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. Plainfield is just north of me. I think I might just do that.
I'm a little worried about what my wife might think. She's also a refugee of 8 years of Catholic school, and firmly atheist. But, and I know this sounds pedestrian, she may find a "woman pastor" cathartic! I know I would!
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latinolatteliberal Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
40. A very enjoyable read
Your post was a calm perspective amid a sea of rage here at DU. Thanks.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Indeed, Uncharacteristically so.
I felt the need for some well-reasoned thought, and no one else was likely to do it around here! :)
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
43. Many thanks. This was a much needed perspective.

May your words be heeded.....
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Thanks! nt
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FedoraLV Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. Knowing your church
even only by reputation, I knew that if Rev. Wright were truly a racist firebrand that he would not have kept his pulpit for 20 years.

You have always been a church that has confronted injustice - and worked for reconciliation. Both.

Thank you for your words: they confirm what I have always known about the UCC.

-FedoraLV
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Thank you. nt
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
46. if you weren't an asshole you couldn't be in here
Your parishoners are very very lucky - and I am willing to bet that most of them know how lucky they are to have you.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Thank you.
Well, not for the "asshole" thing. :)
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
59. "I resemble that remark" lol
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tachyon Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Are you sure you wrote what you meant?
;-)
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. from one asshole to another yes!!
If anyone in here is willing to call themselves an ass then I embrace them and say me too!!!!
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tachyon Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
74. Oh, sorry, my damn martyr detector is out of calibration again.
;-)
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #74
83. martyr? not sure how that fits the OP called himself an asshole and I was simply embrassing
his self depreciating humor.
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tachyon Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. Hey, if you wanna embrass it, I won't depreciate it!
;-)
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #87
160. OK, folks, don't joke about poor spelling. It just encourages the spelling-challenged.
Embrace" not embrass

"Deprecate" not depreciate


Just so everybody knows the correct way.


Have a nice day!




YOU HAVE BEEN VISITED BY THE DU SPELLING POLICE.

I am juajen and I approve this message.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
53. What pray tell is 'the kingdom' ...
that Your Arrogance intends to build that GOD couldn't?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. We're doing to together. We work to build the kingdom of God,
with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Thanks for pissing in my thread!
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. and the good pastor works with the doubters and naysayers......
:thumbsup:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
167. Don't you understand ironical humour at all? It was a joke! When Bobbolink
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 05:26 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
finished one post of his with the line, "The meek are getting ready...!", I expect you realised he was referring to the Beatitude about the meek inheriting the earth.

But he didn't really mean that all over the world, the meek are taking up arms, studying agriculture and/or property valuation. In a purely joking way, it WAS meant to have a menacing tone, but that's where the humour lies.
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
55. You are very close to my PCUSA church.
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 05:48 PM by El Supremo
But the first Reformed church to ordain a woman as a minister was the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in 1889, Louisa Mariah Layman Woosley. That may not fit your definition of "modern". But the congregations that didn't reunite with the PCUS (now PCUSA) still do it today. There was even a womens' seminary in Weatherford Texas. My great grandparents were members there.

Oh, and thank you for your thoughtful post! Looks like it will be one of the "Greatest".
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Not wanting to pick a fight, but Antoinette Brown (later Blackwell)
was ordained in 1853, in South Butler, NY by the Congregational Church--a precursor of the United Church of Christ. The Universalists ordained Olympia Brown (no relation, but friends), five years later.
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. Pick a fight over some historical trivia? I hope not.
Wikipedia has quite a lot on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women

Now the PCUSA has been fighting for years over the ordination of gays. It is sort of "don't ask don't tell" right now.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
56. Sometimes pastors say stupid things
Thanks for posting. :hi:



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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. Don't I know! nt
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
61. Thank you.
Very well said and much appreciated. Please submit to Huffington Post for wider distribution.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Hmmm...interesting thought. I'll think about it. nt
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
64. You seem like a nice person, but Christopher Hitchens is right about religion.
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 06:04 PM by The Night Owl
You seem like a nice person, but Christopher Hitchens is right about religion. Religion poisons everything. One of the problems with religion is that it allows idiots and charlatans like Reverend Wright to rise to positions of prominence and influence. And all of us pay for what these people do to society.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. mycritters is a woman
And while Christopher Hitchens is right in many ways, he can be a bit of an asshole and this thread isn't about him.

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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Thank you for the correction. {EOM}
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #67
151. .
:thumbsup: :hi:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Christopher Hitchens isn't right about anything.

He's disgusting.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #64
77. What allows idiots like Christopher Hitchens to rise to positions of prominence and influence?
Whatever it is, I hope to avoid it.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #77
169. The fact that he was able to vilify Mother Theresa tells you all
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 06:02 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
you need to know about C Hitchens of that ilk.

I saw a photo of him on a website standing next to his brother, who is a Christian, though very mixed up, (mostly, I believe, because he relies on our far-right press in the UK for his income, public profile, etc, so Fidel and Ugo are very, very bad men.)

US leaders, evidently, he views as paragons of virtue in comparison. Anyway, the point this was leading up to was that while Peter looked clear-eyed, his brother our friend who, I believe, is said to enjoy the odd tincture, slouching and looking very bleary-eyed and "out-to-(liquid) lunch", immediately reminded me of that photogaph of poor Khalid Sheik Mohammed after he'd been water-boarded and tortured at Guantanamo. If there is a black humour in that, it is nevertheless a factual statement of my impression on seeing the photograph.
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haroldgiowa Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #64
86. Religion does not poison everything people do. NT
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #86
114. You missed the point. Religion is the poison and snake oil salesmen...
...calling themselves men of God serve it up while demanding that everyone respect their superstitions.
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Unca Jim Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #114
138. Sorry...
but atheism as it is practiced by many is just as poisonous. As others have said: Its not the ideas, it's what you do with them. For example, showing up on a dog-lovers forum and talking about your anti-dog views would just make you look like an asshole and convince no one either to give up their dogs or admit your views about dogs were correct.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
66. Thanks.
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 06:02 PM by intheflow
I posted something similar last night. It really pains me to see the UCC denomination smeared in this way, a lot of posts I'm seeing on the board seem to think Wright is a fundamentalist preacher. This is more a reaction to his African American preaching style, I fear, than what he's saying apart from the few OTT comments he included in the sermon making the rounds. :(

However, I feel compelled to point out one small mistake in your post. :blush: The UCC was not the first church to ordain gays and lesbians. The UUs hold that distinction, ordaining their first openly gay minister in 1969, three years before the UCC. But you're right in that the UCC was the first Christian/trinitarian church to do so.

(Sorry, I'm a former UU minister, just can't keep my mouth shut like so many of the UU ilk. I'm sure as a UCC, a spiritual cousin to UUs, and poster of this thread, you understand. :P)

Keep speaking that truth to power!! :hi:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #66
81. You're right. I should have said "Christian".
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 06:32 PM by mycritters2
I was married to a UU, so I know these things. It was an oversight on my part. Thanks!

And thanks for your post of last night!
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #66
90. Former?
Intheflow, what happened? You were one of this UUer's favorite ministers. Did you get tired of it?
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #90
112. Hi Maat!
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:08 AM by intheflow
Long time no write! :hi:

Yeah, former. The two years on the Mississippi Coast did me in. Between my volunteer time and my volunteer coordinator job, I had a rotating door of over 1500+ volunteers I worked with plus I had a 1/4 time congregational ministry for the last year. I was routinely working 90-110 hours a week from July 2006 to April 2007. So I don't know if it's forever, but I'm really burned out on professional ministry right now.

OTOH, I'm moving across country in a few months and I'm cruising all the local churches to see what other leadership openings they might have. So I guess I'm still in the mix.




Or maybe I'm just a sucker for punishment. :rofl:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
68. Despite all that, I still think that Obama

was foolish to remain a member of Trinity once he developed aspirations to go to Washington. He knew that Wright had extreme views --he says he disagreed with him about some things --he knew that Wright went to Libya with Farrakhan to visit Qadafi, how could he imagine that Wright being his mentor wouldn't become a problem for him politically? He should have cut the ties years ago.


You'll want to see this if you haven't already:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120511457633523621.html

"Trinity's national parent, the United Church of Christ, recently disclosed that it's being investigated by the Internal Revenue Service for a speech Sen. Obama gave to 10,000 people at a church conference in June in Hartford, Conn., in which he mentioned his candidacy and parts of his platform, namely health-care reform."

Could be bad for your church. Also, the pastor who's replacing Wright is already in trouble over a sermon he
gave at Trinity recently.

"In some instances, the church's ministers alluded to Sen. Obama without naming him. During a Trinity sermon observed by a Journal reporter on March 2, the Rev. Otis Moss III, the pastor, preached, "There was a non-Babylonian, a young man who heard the word of God and said, 'I have the audacity to hope!' Now the whole nation says, 'Yes, we can! Yes, we can! Yes, we can!'"

"Because that phrase is so identified with Barack Obama and because he is a member of the congregation, it's possible that it could be interpreted as an implicit endorsement,'' Ms. Aprill says. Mr. Moss didn't return calls seeking comment."

There's much more, not just about Obama, but it has quotes from the Christmas sermon Wright gave, comparing
Obama to Jesus. A lot of it is about increased IRS investigations of churches.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. delete
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 06:21 PM by madrchsod



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FVZA_Colonel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #68
120. While it coul create some difficulties, I don't think simple membership will be that damaging.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 02:42 AM by FVZA_Colonel
And I think the IRS investigation is a bit silly when cast against the political activites of the religious right since the late 70's.


I do not mean to denegrate what you're saying, I just don't know if Trinity Church membership will be that bad.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #120
125. I agree
Also, in the general election, going after Obama's church or ex-pastor opens McCain up to his association with that loon Hagee (sp?) who blamed sin in New Orleans for Katrina.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #120
170. It would be the natural, even routine, response by this administration
to those perceived to be their enemies (with a pulpit, moreover), i.e. vehement anti-capitalists; at least, the extreme forms of capitalism we have in the UK and US.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
72. thanks for your remarks critters
I always enjoy reading your thoughts.

Remember the night I asked you to look up whether Wright's congregation was "open and affirming" or not? We found out it was not, and I am curious as to who decides on the church by church level. Was that a decision Obama and his fellow parishioners made by vote? Was it solely up to Wright? Who decides whether to follow the national church or not?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. Each congregation is autonomous.
General Synod and other national bodies speak only for themselves. So, the congregation of Trinity decided not to be ONA. I will say that Jeremiah Wright has more influence on his congregation than most UCC churches. When he retired, he named his successor and the congregation acceded to his wishes. This has some of my friends in his association quite angry. The rest of us do not get to pick our successors. One thing that I think will come out of this (I hope) is that judicatories will stop kowtowing to large churches and ask them to play by the same rules as everyone else. I hope. I think Wright began to believe his own PR. And much of that PR came from the judicatories and national offices. There's a lesson to be learned here.

Each church, though, decides whether to follow national. No body of the UCC can tell another what to do.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #78
92. Although ...
Rev. Wright did come out strongly in favor of marriage equality:

http://www.nbjcoalition.org/about/supporters.html (his name is near the bottom of the page).

Many steps are requried to become an official welcoming and affirming church, as you undoubtedly know. I know of at least one church (my friend is the minister) in which they are openly inclusive, welcoming and affirming in spirit and practice, but do not have enough funds right now to go through the classes and get the designation (I hope I understand what is going on here).

But, anyway, I digress ... thanks for your good work. We UUers join the local UCCers in a weekly peace vigil.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #92
99. This conference has no classes. Churches can just vote whenever they feel ready.
I wish there were a clearer process. My congregation became ONA before I came here, but didn't fully discuss marriage equality issues. We had to have those discussions after I agreed to do my first same-sex wedding, and it was a bit contentious. If I had been here at the time, I wouldn't have let it come to a vote without a better process.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
73. What a beautiful post! Thanks and recommended.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. Thank you. nt
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
76. "Jane Fisler Hoffman, a Minister in the United Church of Christ"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioaChVw_pUw&eurl=http://www.tucc.org/about.htm
YouTube - Fact Check: Barack Obama's Church

http://www.tucc.org/home.htm
Trinity United Church of Christ
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
80. Still not enough posts to recommend
(I'm pretty quiet. How many do you need to recommend a post?! )

This is a nice post - you manage to bring up some really hot button issues - from the obvious Wright controversy, to religion and even race in general - in a very reasonable way, even without any bias about the candidates (that I can see, anyway). I hope you get through to some people around here!

--From another Edwards fan :hi:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Thanks, and welcome to DU! nt
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #82
89. Thanks!
.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
84. You sure sound like a good Pastor to me...
Everybody can be an asshole at some point in their lives, but what is important is the way you lead your congregation, "offering care to those in need", alot of Churches of all demonations forget this quite often. To me, Church is somewhere to go to worship and for comfort, peace and wisdom, admittedly which I don't do often enough.

You say that a Preacher cannot endorse a candidate, I did not know that because in the Catholic Church where I live people are basically called "sinners" if they vote for pro-choice candidates and gay rights candidates. This kind of preaching is what turns me off, I don't know if all demonitations feel the same way, but yours' seems very progressive. "We were the first modern church to ordain women and gays. As a national expression of the church, we recognize marriage equality. We take stands that even other Christians oppose." Its quite refreshing!!

I am also an Edwards supporter who doesn't yet know who I will support. Usually everything is decided by the time our state (PA) has its primary, but not so this year, so I have a choice to make.

K&R
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. Yes, this law school graduate has researched the law with ..
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 08:20 PM by Maat
Americans United for Separation of Church and State ( www.au.org ).

A pastor can't electioneer ... and what that means is up to interpretation, but individuals have gotten in trouble in the past with the IRS for 'naming names,' and urging voting for one candidate over another. I'm not a practicing attorney, just a lay researcher at this point and AU member, but it certainly seems as if Wright likely crossed the line. I hope that he doesn't get the whole UCC organization in trouble for it. Most ministers I know carefully couch things in terms of issues and 'conservative' and 'liberal;' that way, since one is talking philosophically, one can't get in trouble for electioneering.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #84
100. Thanks for your kind words.
Clergy can take stands on social issues, even on referendum issues that are not partisan. But we can't endorse a candidate or a party by name. We have a lot more leeway than most people realize, which is why it irritates me that some can't live within such broad parameters.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
85. Let's keep this kicked folks!!
:kick:
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #85
105. deleted
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 11:10 PM by hay rick
deleted
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
88. That was a great post, Critters
Thank you for that perspective.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
93. God bless you n/t
And, k and r
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
94. Oh, yes
As a non church going, secular Christian, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
95. Good post. Don't usually respond to say that.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
96. A welcome post....Thanks for sharing...n/t
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Taxmyth Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
97. For what it's worth
I'm kind of worried about the possible backlash from the Pastor's words but you wrote something that actually kind of hit a chord with me and gives me a little more clarity on this:

The prophets often had only the strongest condemnations for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. This country is a mess, and someone needs to say so. Loudly and strongly.

While often expressing disdain for organized religion I remain a somewhat spiritual person. Your explanation of the UCC makes me want to hear more and experience a service for myself. Thanks for the enlightening words and keep up the good work.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
98. Thank you!!
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
101. Pastor...
Thanks for a terrific post.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
102. Thanks for the great post mycritters.
:toast: from one asshole to another. ;)

I love the UCC, and if they had a late Sunday service, I might even bring myself to do more than get the email action alerts.
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il_lilac Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
104. Thanks for the sound reason
I am UCC too, and my pastor (also a great friend) and I talk politics passionatly. I have been pushing him to put more politics (meaning social justice issues) in his sermons and he has started to test those waters much to the uneasiness of older and/or more conservative parishioners. He introduces me as our congregations "social conscience" LOL. I consider it a compliment!
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
106. Thanks for saying this
Edited on Fri Mar-14-08 11:11 PM by AnnieBW
I'm a Wiccan and former Catholic, so I really don't get the whole "spiritual advisor" thing. We were never really close to our priests the way that Protestants are close to their pastors. It's more of a personality-based thing. What I'm seeing is an attempt to tar Obama as a "scary black man with a scary black guru/pastor". It's not like that at all. I think that Rev. Wright probably got on a roll with his preaching, and got carried away. It happens when the Spirit takes over. They RW is also trying to draw attention from the Hagee and Parsley endorsements of McCain by throwing a "racist black preacher" out there to counteract some of the scary stuff that those two nutters have said.

I don't know who's throwing this stuff out there, but I doubt that it's the Clinton campaign. Probably Rove and Novakula.

Either way, keep up the good work, Reverend. There should be more REAL Christians like you. Live long and prosper.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
107. what's the last thing
that goes through a bug's mind when he hits a windshield?

His asshole.

An old joke but I thought you might appreciate it. Thanks for an excellent and informative post.

I'm waiting for the media to latch onto McCain's recent flirtation with Jerry Falwell with the same fervor they have displayed for Obama/Wright.

I'm waiting...

I'm waiting...

I'm waiting...

I'm still waiting...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
108. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Texifornia Donating Member (399 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
109. An important distinction
The sermon with the quasi endorsement of Obama over Clinton is a problem for the church. It should not be a problem for Obama (he's already done what he can do in that regard), but the church could and should in my view be in some trouble for it.

As far as the other sermon in question, I've had pastors with some pretty loonie ideas so I do not believe it is fair to apply guilt by association on any of these ideas. The pastor, however, crossed an important line with the "endorsement".
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bleedinglib Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
110. It's obvious that--
this pastor gate flap is all about tenderizing obama so he will be easier to defeat this fall?
He has already received more scrutiny from the
msm than shrub got in eight years?
Remember what Hagee recently said about Catholics? MCshit
denounced it and that was all forgoten.
Robertson, Hagee, Falwell and the big right wing christian zealots have on numerous ocassions (from the pulpit) critized America and stated how God was punishing us for not following his word. On numerous Sunday mornings they would preach entire surmons
about how 9-11 was allowed to happen because of Americas
disobedience. The gays & adulters, the liberals are the cause of Americas problems. America will suffer until they repent?
(although war is good) (greed is better) comes the cry from
the golden shrines they have built. HATE, HATE, HATE.
Did anyone hear a peep out of cnn, msnbc, Faux or nbc,abc, cbs
lou dobbs, o'really, tucker??
No, because this is off limits !!
BLIB
:wtf:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
113. Well said, Critters.
:hug:

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nonoxy9 Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
115. Took the words out of my mouth, Critters!
This whole thing has been eating me up for the last 24 hours.
As I first listened to Rev. Wright preach I fully understood where he was speaking from, not from my own experiences but from my respect for HIS experiences as a black leader during the height of the civil rights movement. Even B.O. said tonight on Olberman that Rev Wright's anger is an expression of his personal experiences. How come so many white folks (like I am) still don't understand that and respect it?
As a lay pastor with the United Methodist Church I feel blessed that I have the freedom to speak freely always knowing that I must take full responsibility for my words. I know Christ did not call us to simply say the easy things, but to speak honestly even when we know we'll catch hell for it.
God bless you, Critters, for putting this into a Christian perspective so eloquently.
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DianaForRussFeingold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
116. Bookmarked and saved! Some things never change! (The Religious issue JFK 1960)
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 01:12 AM by DianaForRussFeingold
K&R! Thank you so much for your very significant personal views on this! :hug:
I thought you might enjoy seeing this...
Rare Video of John F. Kennedy's speech before Houston ministers 1960--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bVfKT8RK0I&feature=user :kick:

edited to add--Like JFK,I also believe 'we have far more important and critical issues to decide this campaign and they are not religious issues-- the real issues have been obscured',no doubt deliberately...

While, I'm not supporting either candidate yet, this part of JFK's speech would make one heck of a commercial.
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
117. A very insightful post. Thanks.
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pjt7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #117
118. Thanks for sharing your opinion
& teaching us a little something about your church~
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
119. K&R
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
121. Very good post
Thanks for your perspective.
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kentj44 Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
122. i thought the preachers quote
was "god damed america" there is a difference if put this way.i listened over and over god damn and god damned are 2 different things.
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Radio_Lady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
123. K&R... Thanks, Critters.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 03:48 AM by Radio_Lady
Excellent representation of your positions.

I appreciate your time in composing this message.

Cordially,

Radio Lady Ellen in Oregon
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #123
124. K/R.
Another :kick:
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caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
126. K&R! Excellent post! Thank you. :o) n/t
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Gala328 Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
127. Well said, mycritters.
Well said, indeed. As a theologian, myself, I cam certainly appreciate and understand your comments as well as your prospective.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
128. Thanks. I agree with you.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 06:49 AM by susankh4
The UCC is a proud tradition. My son is in divinity schoold at Harvard, where several of his colleagues are UCC. (He is UU.)

:kick:

(I still think that the videos in question are bad news for our party in Nov., but that's a whole nother subject.)
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
129. Great perspective.
I have no problem with what Rev. Wright said for many of the reasons you state. Yes, he was out of line supporting one candidate over the other but as he is retired now, perhaps his church will get a warning and that will be that.

Unitarian Universalist here... a liberal faith that gets trounced publically from time to time too. Have admired the UCC for its TV ads of the past few years and for its very public stance on what it feels is the right way to be in the world.

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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
130. I have a question
In this NYTimes article about Obama disinviting Wright to introduce him when he announced his candidacy for President, Wright says he received a call from Obama on a Friday night "15 minutes before Shabbos".

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us/politics/06obama.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Does your denomination observe Saturday as the sabbath?


Just curious - I didn't expect to see that word used by a Christian minister.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #130
172. No. We're not sabbatarian, so I'm not sure why he used that term,
unless he observes Shabbos as part of his own spirituality. That's possible.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
131. K&R Thank you n/t
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
132. I at one time belonged to a UCC Church
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 07:12 AM by davidpdx
though I am now living overseas. I respected the fact that the church was very tolerant of different kinds of people. Given the fact I grew up in a very small town with very few minorities and gays, though I never believed in discrimination. When I moved up to a larger city to goto college (this was in the early 90's), I started to walk around looking for a church. While it sounds kind of funny, I actually asked plenty of questions of the pastor after the first service about the church. Having been to churches before that preached hard core against tolerance (again being from a small town, that's the way most people are) I wanted to find a church that fit my own beliefs. The pastor was a woman and the assistant pastor (not sure if that's the right term) was openly gay.

While I understand that each of the UCC Churches are independent, I still believe that UCC Churches preach tolerance. Personally I haven't looked at the video (and won't), but I have and still do support Obama. What his pastor said or didn't say won't change that. The fact that I have gone to a UCC church won't make a difference either.
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JPZenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
133. Someone should offer video of Wright's calmer moments
The few excerpts used by Fox News certainly were inflammatory. However, people who know him say Rev. Wright is generally a moderate person. I'd love to see someone issue a video with the calmer and more uniting moments from his sermons.

Right now, many rednecks think Obama is secretly ready "to take over the world for those people" in the middle of the night.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #133
136. JP, they won't
Because only the inflammatory things matter. While I haven't seen the tape personally, I still support Obama.

It's amazing people will continue to cut down Obama and increase the risk of the chance of McCain winning in November. Suddenly we are hearing Obama and his supporters are the problem. Meanwhile McCain's chances are getting better and better by the day.

There's a good chance the next president will appoint at least one SCOTUS seat. If McCain won, his SC justice along with Bush's two would: overturn Rove v. Wade, civil liberties would be destroyed and corporations power will become even worse and there will be tax cuts of plenty for the rich.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
134. TAX THE CHURCHES!
TAX THE BUSINESSES OWNED BY THE CHURCHES!
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #134
159. Did you know that the "caps lock" key can be "un-pressed?" No? I didn't think so.
Redstone
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #134
173. For profit businesses owned by churches are fully taxed.
Even unused parsonages that are rented out are taxed.

Or maybe, to help you comprehend, I should say "FOR-PROFIT BUSINESSES OWNED BY CHURCHES ARE FULLY TAXED!!!11!!
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
135. Thank you
I am a DOC. I get told often I am not a real Christian either. Rev. Wrights words do not bother me. I have been blessed to have a wonderful friend that explains things to me when I don't understand. I have never walked in the shoes of a black person and I have learned not to be so egotistical in telling them I understand everything about being black because I can't. It's kind of the same in that no one knows what it's like to survive cancer.

My concern is has the line between church and state been crossed by some of his sermons? I know the IRS wants to investigate UCC because of a speech Senator Obama gave at the convention. I read his speech and don't get why the IRS has their panties in a wad. Rev. Wright's sermons appear to be different. I say appear because all we see are snippets.

The UCC and the DOCs work closely at least where I live. My daughter has benefited from attending both camps in the summer.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
137. Thanks for being an informed voice of sanity and reason
Something that is largely missing in GDP :-)
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blue neen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
139. I was raised in the United Church of Christ and also was married there.
I credit my upbringing in that church as part of the reason why I turned out to be an open-minded adult.

We had a wonderful preacher whose name was Reverend Hennessey. His wife always lead the Vacation Bible School in the summer...we would get drove of kids from other churches, and they were very welcome there.
I remember this one particular song we sang, "I'm in the Lord's Army." She was an enthusiastic song leader to say the least. :)

One particular thing that sticks out in my mind is that the atmosphere was one of positivity. We weren't constantly being told we were sinners or how we would go straight to the devil if we did not contribute enough money to the church.

I have wonderful memories of my church from childhood and am thankful for that.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
140. Nicely said.
:thumbsup:
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swishyfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
141. Well said n/t
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mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
142. Seattle UCC Member Here!
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:48 AM by mntleo2
I am a middle aged white woman and I guess I would not even BE a UCC member if I were not a progressive.

Yesterday I heard on the Ed Schultz show, a woman who was taking his place for the day speaking with Tucker Carlson about Pastor Wright. They expressed "outrage" and "shock" for a clip the host played where Pastor Wright talked about American violence where we killed millions in Japan during WWII, participated and supported the apartheid in South Africa, and our own long history of slavery and racism in this country. I listened carefully to Pastor Wright's words and found that no, I was *not* shocked, I was in complete agreement with him.

My church like Critter's is mostly white, but for over 40 years we have shared our church with a Taiwanese UCC church. We often do things together, and I have attended many a service in Taiwanese. Recently their youth pastor has been giving an English service that is widely attended by people of all races ~ and this little church is in a predominantly white neighborhood.

My minister also royally paid his dues when in the 1990's he defied the sanctions against Iraq and took medicine to dying Iraqi children with a survivor of the Holocaust and Physicians For Social Responsibility and he went again with Rep McDermott right before the war again in defiance of the sanctions and to protest the coming war. He was fined and tried for treason. In the 1980's my former minister and this church participated in the sheltering of hundreds of fleeing refugees from El Salvador, supporting a Tucson Presbyterian church and again these people in Tucson were tried for treason.

Was the above "political" or was it social justice and were we right to stand up against our government and tell them they were wrong? Well if you look at the history of things, you would say perhaps not as the wrong people who should have been tried for treason. Because the very people responsible for the horrors and carnage in South America are the ones who are responsible today for the Iraq war ~ and we might say for the outrage of people all over the world who have been exploited and enslaved for a few of our citizens to enrich themselves.

Our church has a long history for social justice. I do not support endorsing a candidate from the pulpit, but I will have to say, is it wrong for Pastor Wright to support a member of his flock who is making history for the one of the basic reasons he became a minister ~ for the empowerment of his people? Yes he was passionate, so what? I saw the same passion in "Jesus Camp" when they rolled out a cardboard cutout of George Bush and told the children he was doing God's work, which I am sure similarly done in every right wing mega-church in this country. I wonder if any of them get investigated for wrongly preaching from the pulpit ...but I digress.

My points here are that I resent Pastor Wright being singled out for being a "kook" when there are some REAL kooks using Jesus name to make war, enslave people, and do gross injustices around the world and here in our own country. Again I cannot support anyone touting a candidate from the pulpit, but I might ask if Pastor Wright is so wrong to shout to the world something he probably did not believe he would see in his lifetime: one of his own people (and one of mine too for that matter) who became a major candidate for the president of the United States and perhaps the leader of our country!

Maybe I would want to shout my support from the rooftops too!

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #142
154. "I saw the same passion in "Jesus Camp" " Very good point!
Oh, if we only had a REAL media that would pit these two videos together!!

REally, people need to be reminded of the assholery that has gone on for so long in this country!

Many fine points you've made, especially about the "treason"..

:applause:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
143. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #143
146. So when Obama gets the nomination, who will you be voting for in Nov?
:shrug:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #143
174. Welcome to DU.
Why come to a Dem site and talk about why you won't vote for a Dem?

Whatever. Enjoy your stay.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
144. Thanks, a much needed post. I only wish that Rev. Wright would have
thought about how his speeches would have effected Obama's campaign. Saying that, the first thought that came to my mind when I heard it was: He is saying what many of us think and do not say.
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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
145. Thank you, Critters.;-)
This is an excellent OP.

You are a good person, helping others
is-- oh darn, I have writer's block- ;)

You are a good guy, your life's work is helping others
and we have many things in common.

You must be an outstanding pastor!

Thanks so much for this great thread,

God bless you and the good work you do for others.

:D :pals:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
148. I just got this quote today, and while not directly connected, it seems to me to have be appropos:
I'm a big fan of Jean Vanier, and often find his words to be healing as well as thought-provoking. Here is his quote for today:

"The Real 'I' in Public Life
The emergence of the real 'I,' the refusal to compromise with a world which crushes weak people and personal freedom and conscience, this refusal to compromise with evil and forces of corruption and oppression, seems to be particularly hard in public life. When we commit an injustice through fear of losing our position or good name, when we lie because we are afraid of conflict or rejection, when we accept bribes, the 'I' is plunged deeper and deeper into the dark areas of our being."


- Jean Vanier, Our Journey Home, p. 167
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
152. Thanks for posting this! You sounds like a pastor I'd enjoy listening to
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
153. Thanks for posting this.
:thumbsup:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
155. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #155
161. What a wonderful contribution to the discussion. Thank you so much. Gee, why is it that
I suspect you're not black?

Redstone
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #161
177. Damn! I missed it!! nt
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
156. EXCELLENT post! Thank you for your perspective, Critters!
Really valuable to illuminate this controversy and give it a fuller and broader perspective.

We ALL need this voice of yours to be heard!

Have you considered sending this around to other blogs?
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
157. Fascinating post.
Thank you for providing some much-needed insight into the Jeremiah Wright conversation.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
158. OK, then here's MY perspective, since you gave us yours:
Terrific post. One of the very best I've ever seen on DU.

I wish I could recommend it more than once.

Redstone
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #158
175. Thanks, Redstone. nt
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
162. Delighted to give this a K & R!
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
163. Thank you for an excellent and thoughtful post
As we blow all of these issues way out of proportion, we don't have time to focus on the really big things that SHOULD receive our attention.

It is tiring that the UCC spends so much time as a public punching bag because it tends to be more progressive ... but then again why is a denomination that talks about God's extravagent love and says that ALL are welcome for worship ... why is that somehow NOT Christian? hmmm.

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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
164. Thank you so much for your perspective. nt
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
165. Unitarians Considering Christ rocks!
;)

Kicked.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #165
176. That's us!!
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Jazzgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
168. I know I'm posting late but thanks for such a reasoned post.
I am so glad someone was able to intelligently explain the fact that African American churches and their parishioners have very different perspectives and experiences. That doesn't mean we're racist but we do tend to look at the world through different colored glasses. Thanks for the explanation.

JG
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TheCentepedeShoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
171. Thank you !!!
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Citizen Kang Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
178. I grew up going to Plymouth Congregational Church in Des Moines, Iowa
and was baptized in the United Church of Christ. I can tell you that the United Church of Christ is probably one of the most liberal, tolerant and most Christ-like of any Christian church. It angers and shames me to see such an obvious smear on Barack Obama and how many Democrats are cheering for it.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #178
179. I served a church 90 miles north of Des Moines for 5 years.
Went to Des Moines all the time. The Associate Conference Minister was, is, a good friend of mine. Plymouth is a great church!
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medeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
180. kick
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