I'm a Lutheran...

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

"Jews are a base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."

"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."

Martin Luther - On Jews and Their Lies

"The Devil, with his angelic snout, devours what exudes from the oral and anal apertures of the Jews; this is indeed his favorite dish, on which he battens like a sow behind the hedge ..."

Martin Luther - Vom Schem Hamphoras

I say this because a colleague mine asked, "How can I vote for Barak Obama when his pastor -- his spiritual leader -- has said this kind of stuff." Bear in mind that the swill you read above is not some "early writing" of Luther's that he later recanted. This was written in 1543, three years before his death and a full 26 years after posting his 95 these on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg.

My point here is that if I can be a Lutheran and ignore the ranting above, I see no reason why Obama can't admire Rev. Wright but not accept every syllable of his world view. Now I've read transcripts of Wright's sermons, and what is most shocking is his rhetoric. Take away the incendiary language and the bombast, and many of Wright's points have been made by sober, thoughtful intellectual, both black and white.

[oviedodem]

1. I'm a lutheran too and I saw that while becoming a member but

am smart enough to realize that Martin Luther does not speak for me. Much like Wright.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

2. ...and for what it's worth

I believe the main denominations of Lutheranism officially renounced those writings several decades ago.

Which furthers my point that being a "follower" of an individual doesn't mean that you have to agree with everything that person says or does.

How many here want to defend FDR on the subject of Japanese-American Internment Camps?

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

5. I am a Baptist

I don't agree with the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) about much of anything. I still am a Baptist. Old habits are hard to break. At least they have come out and are admitting that global warming needs to be looked at. It is a start.

[Faygo Kid]

14. Me, too, and as proof, I had pickled herring on hardtack tonight.

Scout's honor. Before seeing this post.

Doesn't get more Lutheran than that. Can I expect Sean Hannity to condemn me, too?

[Berry Cool]

3. Believe it or not, having grown up Lutheran, I was once smeared online by a stranger

who knew this fact, and who attempted to use it against me to persuade others that I was anti-Semitic because "all Lutherans are anti-Semitic." Her justification was the above words of Luther.

I was disgusted. These quotes were never aired in any Lutheran church I ever attended, and they were certainly not the lessons taught to me in church. In fact, I remember being shocked and disgusted to learn that there were other religions whose adherents had picked up the message that it was OK to be anti-Semitic because Jews were "Christ killers."

We would all do well not to pass snap judgments on others based on what we know of their religious beliefs. Or lack thereof. That being said, I am glad Obama is taking the steps he is to divorce his own beliefs from the radical sayings of a man that he knows well and considers a mentor. After all, Luther died a long time before I was born, and it's not a shocker that I was not exposed as a child to some of his more unsavory beliefs.

[JVS]

10. Another quote

" There are now not a few persons who preach and read about Christ with the object of moving the human affections to sympathise with Christ, to indignation against the Jews, and other childish and womanish absurdities of that kind. Now preaching ought to have the object of promoting faith in Him, so that He may not only be Christ, but a Christ for you and for me, and that what is said of Him, and what He is called, may work in us." -Concerning Christian Liberty

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/cclib-2.html

Sadly there is no English translation of Dass Jesus ein Geborner Jude Sei (That Jesus Christ was born a Jew) out there, in which Luther condemned anti-semitism (although Luther never did view the Jewish religion as legitimate)

Scholarly treatments of Luther paint a much more complex picture than popular knowledge.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

11. And to be fair...

Everything Luther said about the Jews, he also said about the Pope.

It was apparently a common rhetorical practice in that era to heap really over-the-top invective upon your target. If you read it with that in mind, some of it's kind of humorous, in an "I fart in your general direction" sort of way.

[prairie populist]

4. Many times I have been at odds with the Methodist Church

but as anyone who is a regular churchgoer knows, a church is as much about the community of members as the pastor.

Over the years there have been pastors that I have listened to spew sermons that I considered offensive, especially on the gay marriage issue.

But just when I think I absolutely have to switch churches I look around at the blue-haired ladies that stitches quilts for my kids when they were born or sent cards or brought food when I was sick.

And I grit my teeth and resolve that the church will have to be enlightened from within, not beaten down by leaving the older members to struggle to keep the doors open on their own.

[Beregond2]

6. Episcopalian

Exactly. I am an Episcopalian, because I love the tradition of doctrine and worship it represents. But the current Archbishop of Canterbury, with his backward views, does not speak for me, nor do the homophobic bishops of the "Southern Cone." I think that people who are not part of a faith tradition don't understand that they are all "big tents," with people of wide-ranging beliefs and styles of conduct within them. Even the Catholic Church, which does everything it can to enforce uniformity of belief, can't bring it off.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. Excellent post

It is a wise person who realizes that every word a teacher utters is not always divine or inspired. All teachers are human, and as such are prone to human frailties.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

9. On a more contemporary note...

The ELCA is (and has been) struggling with the subject of gay marriage. It appears that the compromise position that was floated this week will please nobody. But whatever the "official" position is has no effect on my own opinions.

Furthermore, I would point out that nobody held John Kerry (Roman Catholic) accountable for the anti-gay and anti-woman stance of the Pope.

[noel711]

8. Thanks Jeff...

One thing I appreciate about being Lutheran is that
we are 'thinkers.' We don't simplify things just
to make them palatable to the masses.

And accepting the fact that we are all saints
and sinners simultaneously. We are gifted,
yet flawed, and its a relief to know that.

No one is perfect. Sadly, in this political climate,
its so easy to tear each other apart over simplifications
and damn one another's bleeding.

Sadly, this thread isn't sensationalistic,
But I salute you my brother!

[Drunken Irishman]

12. I'm a Catholic.

And have respect for Pope Pius XII and his leadership, even though he wasn't vocal during WWII and the rise of Fascism in Europe. In fact, he had a relationship with Hitler. I'd hope that this does not make me a Nazi sympathizer.

The Catholic Church has a bloody history of doing some very bad things. And while I personally denounce those actions, it doesn't change the fact that I still love my Church and its values as a whole.

But I guess I am guilty by association.

[stevedeshazer]

13. I'm a recovering Lutheran, and I completely agree.

That ain't what Jesus would have said. He was a Jew, after all.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

15. Missouri, Wisconsin, or ELCA?

[stevedeshazer]

17. ELCA

When I was a kid, we had services in Swedish.

[MadMaddie]

16. Excellent point...

[rucky]

18. I'm a Jew and I went to a Lutheran university

I didn't know that about Luther, and never felt anything but welcome at the school.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

19. As long as you weren't at Wittenberg in the 1530's...

I'm sure you were treated well. Except for Friday Night Lutefisk...