If your church

[BlackVelvet04]

If the church you attend has a preach who ....

preaches hatred toward homosexuals WALK OUT
preaches discrimination toward women WALK OUT
preaches hatred toward Blacks WALK OUT
preaches hatred toward Whites WALK OUT
preaches that the Bible gives you the right to ask for the damnation of anyone WALK OUT

If you don't, you're part of the problem and you damn sure aren't part of the solution.

[hedgehog]

1. Why should I walk out? I'd rather stay and make the preacher walk away! nt

[BlackVelvet04]

9. and that does nothing but create two groups who end up

hating each other. and if the majority agree with the pastor they get another pastor to preach the same thing.

[whopis01]

135. Great. More of the 'Love it or leave it' mentality.

There are more ways of addressing problems than simply walking away from them.

[XemaSab]

2. What if it preaches hatred towards warmongers and bigots?

:shrug:

[BlackVelvet04]

5. If it preaches HATRED toward anyone

it isn't fit to be in.

[eileen_d]

3. Boy, life must be easy for you!

Things aren't always that simple. People's ties to churches and communities are complex.

[BlackVelvet04]

6. No, having the courage of conviction is NEVER easy....

it's just right.

[Bluebear]

It's not always easy to do the right thing.

[BlackVelvet04]

24. No, it isn't easy....

but it's possible and it's worth it. I couldn't have lived with myself if I had stayed in a church where the Deacon said he didn't want any n*****s in his church and most of the congregation agreed. I couldn't live with myself if I had stayed in a church that hated homosexuals and wanted them all to burn in hell. NO, it wasn't easy walking out, especially at age 17, but I did it and I would do it again, and again, and again.

[Bluebear]

45. Bravo.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

50. I knew there was a damn good reason why I like you so much!

[BlackVelvet04]

56. Now you're making me blush.....

:pals:

[Little Star]

65. Are we related? I told mine what I thought of their hypocrisy

left the church and home at 16 because of my parents church and religion.

[BlackVelvet04]

87. We could be......

does your family lean toward short, dark haired, dark eyed southerners?

I don't go to church to hear hate and divisiveness....if I want to listen to that I'll turn on Fox News. ;-)

[Little Star]

108. Short, southern and Melungeon. NC, GA &TN. Mtn. Folks.

Blue/green eyes, brown hair. What states did your family come from?

[emilyg]

Amen.

[VotesForWomen]

137. i didn't find quitting religion hard at all. nt

[Hepburn]

4. I am an atheist....

....so your question is irrelevant. Anything else you care to whine about?

[DesertFlower]

47. me too.

:toast:

[whopis01]

133. It wasn't a question.

Also, even if you are an atheist, there are others who are not, so it is difficult to see how your choices make someone else's statements irrelevant.

Perhaps you could have worded it more accurately and claimed that the statement was irrelevant to you.

[MadMaddie]

7. I stopped going and enabling the hatemongers....

I have no use for them...

They rob their parishoners of their hard earned money...by making them feel guilty and that they won't be blessed or saved...

[BlackVelvet04]

11. I can't believe what passes for churches today.....

hatred is never Godly.

[MadMaddie]

17. Agreed...and when you mix church and (state/politics)

you get a very dangerous combination.

[BlackVelvet04]

20. YES you do....

and Bravo on you MadMaddie for having the courage to walk out.

[adoraz]

8. the only problem is

people like you who still haven't accepted Obama will be the nominee, and are trying to bring him down.

This will not affect the outcome. It came at a PERFECT time for Obama. By next week it will be old news.

Notice how Hillary and McCain didn't touch this today? What does that tell you?

[BlackVelvet04]

10. Nice way to ignore the OP....

go piss on another thread, you have nothing to contribute here.

[adoraz]

15. nice way to ignore my point

my point is its not a big deal and the ONLY people making it into a big deal are those against Obama.

There is no evidence Obama was even at those sermons. He was at others, yes. I am sure there was SOME bad stuff at them, but if the stuff was bad enough we sure would have heard about it all by now.

Personally, I didn't see much wrong with what he said, and yes I have seen all the videos released by the media. Hell, I am white and I agree with much of what he said.

[BlackVelvet04]

19. It IS a big deal....

pull your head out of your ass if that's possible.

[adoraz]

23. can you tell me

what exactly he said that has offended you so much?

and no need for the asshole comments buddy.

[BlackVelvet04]

26. Well, God damn America....

for one. That's just wrong on so many levels.

[adoraz]

35. okay, so here is the problem

1. Where is the discrimination in that which offends you so much and who is it directed at?

2. the Church publishes their sermons, and that is the worst thing he has said in all of them. To me, that doesn't sound like a big fucking deal. I hear far worse shit every day. To top it all off though, there isn't even any proof Obama was actually at that particular sermon.

[Zookeeper]

117. You must be a man. How about Wright's rant about how...

Hillary doesn't know what it's like to be a black man in America and therefore have difficulty getting a cab? About how she's never been judged for the color of her skin?

That was seriously stupid. I can say that Obama doesn't know what it feels like to worry about getting raped while waiting for a bus at night. And being a man brings him plenty of benefits in some areas compared to what women experience. African-Americans used to be lynched, but women of all colors are still being abused and murdered just for being women.

So, I think Wright is an asshole. And I'd be very disappointed in Barak if he never called Wright it.

[usrbs]

59. It is a big deal, but your blinders won't let you see it.

And his explanation is disingenuous and unbelievable, and there's already eyewitnesses who claim to have seen him in one of the sermons. But you're right - the timing is good for your candidate and he may have fallen on the right defense - flat denial. Repeated enough times, some will believe this.

And for the record, I agree with a lot of what Wright says, but Obama himself is disassociating himself from Wright's statements. To tell the truth, the assertion that AIDs was a Whitey invention disturbs me the most because it means the guy, Obama's advisor was a nut. And what does that say about BO?

[emilyg]

71. Accept the fact

it is a very big deal.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

52. hmmm interesting.....I didn't see anyone's name in the OP

[laugle]

64. We don't have to

"ACCEPT" Obama! The people of this nation will decide not YOU! How arrogant that statement is!

Hillary/McCain don't need to touch this issue, it has a life of it's own!

[ExtraGriz]

113. obama is doing a good job of this all by himself

wright brought him down, rezko brought him down....obama brought himself down. face it, obama is done, wright flushed his nomination down to where it belongs.

[VotesForWomen]

138. i'm sorry, what does that fiction have to do with the OP? nt

[golddigger]

12. You forgot one BV...

If the preacher starts humping the podium in a obscene matter, with kid's in the audience WALK
OUT

[BlackVelvet04]

14. Good point....

I forgot that one.

[emilyg]

77. Yes.

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

13. I walked out of a church in 1970 with a hateful,crazed priest.

He loved the Vietnam war,hated "dirty hippies", and scorned non-Catholics.

I never went back.

[BlackVelvet04]

16. BRAVO....

I like people who have the guts to say NO to hatred and discrimination.

[golddigger]

18. A big kick...nt

[CreekDog]

21. Thanks for the instruction, who made you God

:hi:

[BlackVelvet04]

28. You're welcome, my child....

now walk in the light.

[CreekDog]

40. If you're God I'm an atheist

:hi:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

55. She's really easy to get along with once you people learn to worship her.

:pals:

[BlackVelvet04]

62. ROFLMAO.....

that's really funny.

[CreekDog]

123. i'm very teachable, here i am

:yoiks:

[CreekDog]

122. i need some smoting

:rofl:

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. Actually, I think you're part of the problem.

And you're also very obviously not interested in context or facts; a few sensationalised snippets taken out of context get publicised, and you take it as 'hatred toward whites'. That's just ridiculous; Wright may be saying uncomfortable things, but what he's talking about is institutionalised racism and power structures. (Not to mention that opposition to sexism and homophobia are part of his ministry, which is more than one can say for most Protestant denominations.)

And while I'm not religious, personally, I think it's kind of simplistic to expect people (even liberal people) to turn their backs on the faith they were brought up in rather than to work within it. (I suppose you think Catholics can't be good liberals, either.)

[eileen_d]

25. Thank you.

Your second paragraph said what I meant (up there ^^) better than I could.

[BlackVelvet04]

29. You have no idea what I think ......

there isn't any context needed to condemn God damn America.

[eileen_d]

34. Of course there is!

What is the context, by the way? I'm a little behind.

[BlackVelvet04]

39. No, there isn't. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Sure there is.

'damn' as in 'condemn', as opposed to 'bless'...and he was talking about inherent inequalities, institutionalised racism, power structures...from the perspective of a member of an historically opressed minority group. Context is everything.

[BlackVelvet04]

38. Wrong....

it isn't up to anyone to ask God to damn anyone. EVER

[GoldieAZ49]

43. asking God to condemn our country is not the solution

It is the greatness of this country that allows us to confront and speak out against inequalities, institutionalised racism, power structures.

This country is not perfect and continues to have growing pains, the growth is slower than we would like, but please tell me of a country in the world that doesn't have the same struggles we have?

There are many that are far, far worse.

[TexasLady]

32. Good point

I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, who have nothing to do with politics for the most part(unless they have changed that TOO) but defend my parent's right to believe what they want to. I personally can't stand what they believe anymore, but I always find myself sticking up for JW's because I know so many personally.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

27. So would would you do with the Pope?

[BlackVelvet04]

31. Ignore him like I've always done ............n/t

[hedgehog]

53. The only people who pay attention to the Pope are right wing Catholics

and people who don't like the Catholic Church!

[NewHampshireDem]

30. Abe Lincoln, America Hater

“Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right.”

[BlackVelvet04]

33. I didn't see anything in that statement that says Lincoln hates

America.

[GoldieAZ49]

37. I have walked out of several churches over the years

of different denominations when they started in with the pity the heathens that don't do it the way we do

I believe in God, and I believe we are either all Gods kids or none of us are

No one is better than I am, and no one is worse than I am

Jesus didn't come to call the saints, or he wouldn't have come to earth

I would rather see a sermon than hear one

I know not everyone here agrees, but I think we can disagree without being disagreeable

[goodgd_yall]

41. Even though I agree with many of Wright's sentiments

I don't agree with how he uses his position as pastor. Pastors are usually looked up to as examples, but Wright makes sweeping generalizations about groups of people. That, from what I understand, doesn't reflect a Christian message. That's not to say that sermons need to be wishy-washy and never challenge the church people. They should! Which makes me wonder---who is Wright challenging? Isn't he preaching to the choir? I think pastors, priests, ministers, rabbis, and so on, can be tempted to use the pulpit as their personal sounding board. If the message doesn't contribute to the parishioners' growth toward wholeness (a more Christian life, in this case), I would be apt to think that the preacher is getting too full of him- or herself.

[RevCheesehead]

42. If I did,

I'd be out of a job. O8)

[zabet]

44. K and R

Do not support hate.

:patriot:

[BumRushDaShow]

46. The spiritual head of my church is this man....

The Archbishop of Canterbury (The Most Reverend Rowan D. Williams)



As a member of the Episcopal Church USA, my church is a member of the Anglican communion as headed up by that man. This is one of the oldest denominations (yet perhaps also one of the smallest in terms of number of congregants, but also one of the richest) in the U.S. And over there in jolly old England, they have refused to acknowledge what the church did here - ordained straight women and openly gay men and women, not only as priests, but Bishops. So because the group here did this, some dioceses within our church are breaking away and becoming affiliated with other Anglican churches abroad (either in South America or Africa).

And here we are in 2008, some 215 years after a radical named Absalom Jones:



demanded to be ordained into the Episcopal priesthood thanks to the shoddy treatment of African slaves and freedman in the U.S. Episcopal church here in Philadelphia. And Jones eventually formed St. Thomas African Episcopal Church, with he as the first black Episcopal rector in 1794. He and fellow AME church-founder Richard Allen went on to petition the gov't, with often fiery sermons, to repeal the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793.

So you propose leaving this church despite the fact that I was confirmed by the first black woman Bishop in this church (who was also one of the first female priests some 30 years ago), and despite the fact that others before me fought to counter injustices for over 200 years, just because the Archbishop preaches division? :shrug:

Why not continue to fight for equal recognition of people as people instead and let the others go?

If anything, Christianity has been used to oppress people for generations, which is why you have so many atheists and agnostics who see the hypocrisy for what it is. Yet others still rely on the church as their mental support system and prefer that to going to psychiatrists and drugging themselves up on Prozac or Lexapro.

[BlackVelvet04]

61. If division is your thing then stay....

if it isn't protest by leaving, or not, but I for one won't compromise because of tradition.

[BumRushDaShow]

66. Sadly, you missed the point of what I wrote...

Or perhaps you don't understand the Episcopal Church and what is happening with it, although its turmoil has been in the news quite often the past couple years.

The U.S. church itself has fought to change against the wishes of its parent. And this has put the parent in a quandary, as the church here is one its wealthiest and most powerful. So because the U.S. church has embraced the oppressed communities, but the parent has not, does this mean I should leave anyway? Certainly those who believe in the elitist church, without women or gays as priests, are leaving left and right. Should I join them then or should I remain and keep the church moving in the direction to where it stands in sharp contrast to other churches that deny women and others a path to preach and pastor?

[BlackVelvet04]

78. does your pastor stand up and preach division? n/t

[BumRushDaShow]

95. My pastor is gay

But the titular head of my church wouldn't recognize his kind. Go figure.

But because the titular head does such, should I still leave rather than embrace what the U.S. denomination has done in terms of embracing the oppressed?

You see, the problem isn't as simple or narrow as you are trying to make it. The entire body of the Christian church has preached hate and division almost since its founding. But there is a thing in Christianity that you seem to ignore and that is forgiveness. ;) How many parables are out there that illustrate this over and over and over?

[BlackVelvet04]

106. I'm talking about what the actual church you attend

preaches.


As for forgiveness, let me give you an example. I'm walking down the street and my neighbor pulls out while talking on his cell phone, distracted he hits me. I can forgive him but I won't walk by his house again.

Forgiveness doesn't mean putting up with.

[BumRushDaShow]

110. Does that really matter when my church is part of a larger organization

where the 2 financially support one another and are intricately intertwined?

Again, do you see the error in generalizing and oversimplifying?

And you definitely have a different interpretation of forgiveness than myself. IMHO, your example is superficial in terms of forgiving someone for a lapse in attention resulting in an accident. I am talking about forgiveness on a deeper level. On a spiritual level that permeates the psyche of a person and influences their behavior. In essence not throwing out the baby with the bathwater as you propose that people do.

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

-the Gospel according to Luke 6:35-36

What often happens in many black churches is that they see the above (and similar entreaties) and they rail against the abuse done to them, reaching for the Old Testament and the "Eye for an eye" doctrine. But then they eventually embrace the above because there is always that hope that they will one day be rewarded... because as is often said, The Lord don't like ugliness, and what goes around comes around. And when you have been around long enough, this is often true - at least in terms of how bad situations can often rectify themselves, sometimes almost miraculously (at least in terms of perception).

But just like the subject of politics, the subject of religion is always controversial and no one will "win" any argument about it, despite people constantly trying... and our debate could go on for days and never be resolved. We have different perspectives and should merely agree to disagree.

[CreekDog]

48. women can't become pastors in my church

do i need to leave oh wise one?

[BlackVelvet04]

57. I would....

I won't support discrimination by financial support or my attendance. If you hit them in the pocketbook they eventually have to change or cease to exist.

[usrbs]

63. I would consider it

Religion shouldn't get any special pass. There are plenty of churches around, and surely you could find one more in line with your beliefs.

An article came out a few weeks ago about how a surprising number of Americans switch religions. If they could, so can you. So could Obama.

[CreekDog]

121. mine is in line with my belief in God

i line up with churches on the basis of what they teach about God. what they teach about politics, that's secondary to me.

i have left a church based on what they teach about baptism and communion. i have not left a church because they leaned Republican or because their members or pastor seemed to. again, my experience with churches i have been in is that when they talk about baptism and communion, they say that comes from God. when they mention politics, i have not felt someone claim that they are speaking for more than themselves.

in other words, when they speak as people, i can disagree with them as long as they are only claiming to speak as a person. when they speak for God (or claim to), it is over that where a disagreement would leave me to leave.

that's how it is for many churchgoers.

and many churches with liberal political philosophies don't teach doctrines of baptism, grace, communion and conversion that i believe. so i'm sort of stuck, i can either go where they agree with my politics but not my theology or vice versa. it being church, i go where the theology is right and the politics are not taught as divinely inspired.

now do you see how people can be progressive and go to conservative churches?

[usrbs]

130. Slightly more

But not entirely, and that's probably because I'm a fervent humanist. But thanks for trying to explain, it does shed some light.

It's odd that the progressive churches tend not to agree with your religious beliefs.

[VotesForWomen]

140. equal respect for women is not 'politics.' it's a shame that you don't see that. nt

[VotesForWomen]

139. is that a rhetorical question? shit yes, you should leave. if they didn't let blacks be pastors wou

would you leave? i'll let you answer that to yourself.

[NOLALady]

49. Fat Chance.

That is MY Church.

I was Christened there, went to school there, sent my kid there and I will be buried from there.

That has been my Church probably since before the current priest was born. If/When he messes up the Community will confront him. Our Church has generational members. An idiot priest will not run them away. Hell, we pay his salary. It is not his Church.

Actually, I no longer attend Church regularly, but many of my friends still do. They keep me up to date. And he has been challenged/confronted about divisive rhetoric.

[Dinger]

51. K & R! : )

O8) :bounce: :applause: :patriot:

[jwirr]

54. I am lucky that my church does none of those things.

[shraby]

58. I was of the impression that in most churches,

if the preacher/pastor/priest/rabbi said things that the congregation wasn't pleased with, the preacher/pastor/priest/rabbi was removed and replaced.

[GeorgeGist]

60. If you need to go to church ...

to learn right from wrong, you have a problem.

[mdmc]

67. how about fuck you - pray how you pray - i'll pray how i pray

I'm a roman catholic - it ain't perfect, but it is how I was raised.
Sorry for the foul language, but I hate catholic bashing...

[BlackVelvet04]

74. I don't believe the OP mentioned the Catholic Church...

or any other church. A bit defensive are you? If so, why?

[mdmc]

83. The leader of my church, Pope Ratzinger or whoever he is

is always saying stupid shit about gays. And the church won't allow women to be priests.

I disagree with the Roman Catholic stances on gays and on women. But I am still a catholic.

My local priest feels the same way I do. He even came out in support of New Paltz Mayor Jason West --- during a sermon.

Religion has been a great source of evil in the world. And a great source of comfort. Take it for what it is worth.

I just hate to see people bashed for their religion.

[JVS]

68. My fellow parishoners don't dictate my politics, and I'm not going to let you dictate my religion.

[rodeodance]

69. gee Blackvelvet has so much power----whow whow

[JVS]

76. She is the one presuming to tell people what religious affiliations they should keep.

[BlackVelvet04]

82. I didn't mention religious affiliations....

I mentioned behavior.

[JVS]

84. You told people when they should leave their churches. That is affiliation.

[BlackVelvet04]

93. sorry....

I misread. I was thinking you said denomination. I truly don't understand why anyone would stay in a church and support it if the pastor preaches discrimination, hatred, or divisiveness. That's so completely the antithesis of Christianity that I can't comprehend it.

[eileen_d]

90. Stop splitting hairs

JVS's response was on point. You're backpedaling.

[BlackVelvet04]

94. No backpedaling....

I read one thing and thought another. I answered him....are you just in this to piss on the thread? JVS and I are having a conversation so why don't you run along and let us have it without comments from the peanut gallery.

[eileen_d]

97. LOL! If you want to have a private converstation

take it to PM. It's called a discussion board. Never mind though, I've made my point, I'm done with ya. :toast:

[BlackVelvet04]

100. I hope that's a promise. n/t

[eileen_d]

128. Ha! I hid this thread

because I was getting too salty, but now it's late and I'm back just to be annoying!

[JVS]

103. I find your treatment of eileen bitter and divisive, the antithesis of Christianity.

I won't talk with you any more on this issue.. since you have excluded her from the conversation.

[BlackVelvet04]

105. Good. n/t

[rodeodance]

85. I think wee little leprechauns are whispering in your ear.

[eileen_d]

73. Well said. nt

[Barack_America]

70. Please provide examples of when Jeremiah Wright, preached...

either "Hatred toward homosexuals" or "Discrimination toward women".

I'm assuming that:
1. You're discussing he and Obama's relationship in the OP
2. That you're using the videos as weak evidence of items 3-5

I'll wait.

[BlackVelvet04]

72. I didn't mention Jeremiah Wright, did I? n/t

[Barack_America]

75. So this has nothing to do with Obama?

Then why are you posting it in GDP?

[BlackVelvet04]

80. Because I wanted to........

if it encompasses things said in Obama's church so be it.

[Barack_America]

86. And if people assume that this refers to Obama's church "so be it" too?

How very fair of you.

[BlackVelvet04]

91. yes, it is.....

I'm not going to be dragged into arguing about what Wright said....not in this thread. My OP encompasses ANY pastor who preaches hate, divisiveness and anger.

[Barack_America]

92. And, once again, your OP then does not belong in GDP.

But nevermind.

[BlackVelvet04]

96. Well, call out the national guard..........n/t

[rodeodance]

104. I am laughing so hard at the response of the Nat Guard!--chuckle

[BlackVelvet04]

107. .......

[Zookeeper]

119. Well, he launched into a rant about how Obama, as a black...

man, has it worse than Hillary, a white woman, because black men have trouble hailing cabs.

Apparently, it hasn't occurred to him that women of all colors are at risk of being raped, beaten, murdered and sold into sexual slavery just because they're women.

Does this mean Obama shouldn't be President? I'll leave that up to each of us to decide, but Wright comes across as an asshole. It bugs me to see Obama supporters ignoring Wright's hateful comments just because they're afraid it will hurt Obama.

[shayes51]

79. Great post!

[Hoof Hearted]

81. It took me a long time to find a liberal church that I was comfortable in.

I would never stay in a church that preached hate from the pulpit.

Ever.

Obama is toast, and he has only himself to blame.

[BlackVelvet04]

88. Like I said in another post....

if I want to hear hate and divisiveness I'll turn on Fox News.

congratulations on sticking to your guns and finding a church that doesn't preach those things.

[rodeodance]

89. hi, have not seen you for a while--glad you found something your like:-)

[Hoof Hearted]

120. I've had mid-terms do deal with Rodeo. Nice to see you !

:pals:

[rodeodance]

129. ah--i do recall now. nice you could drop in. hope things going well. bye for now

[Warren DeMontague]

98. Or, you could just not go to church.

Personally, I wish I could vote for someone who does something more constructive with their Sunday Mornings, like sleeps in.

But that's just me.

[BlackVelvet04]

101. I seldom go to church any more.....

the last two times were for weddings. I live in Jerry Falwell land and no way would I have anything to do with a church that supports that type of mentality.

[Warren DeMontague]

124. Ah, for me, this is the closest I've ever been to "Church"

[CatsDogsBabies]

99. And

Eventually you will be all alone. Walking out is not always the answer. Eventually walking out will lead to endless divisions when you realize there is always something wrong with the other person, their opinions aren't exactly right, or they are ignorant, or hold weird views. It is hard to remain in a community where you believe there is injustice, but unless someone is willing to live with the frustration and heartache that comes from trying to move things forward from within, nothing will ever change. The reality is we all get some good and some bad from the communities we belong too. The idea that you will achieve some community sanitized from all the failures and limitations and ignorance that is part of our human experience is just stupid. It is hard to cast your lot with the messy mass of humanity, but bearing with one another really is a virtue. It really is possible to tell someone that you believe they are wrong without completely turning your back on that person. I think your post is completely off the mark in principle. Do you really believe walking out changes anything? It's cowardly, allows you to feel superior without actually doing anything, without getting involved in al lthe mess.

[BlackVelvet04]

102. I don't walk away for every little disagreement...

but yes, walking away from a church that preaches divisiveness, discrimination, hatred and unrelenting anger does accomplish something....it saves me from taking that shit into my life and it deprives the church of my time and money. I've tried to talk to people in the church and change things and it doesn't work so I walk away. If you think it's cowardly that's your right, I think it's cowardly to support that kind of unChristian, inhumane crap.

[boston bean]

109. I stopped going when the pedophile priest scandal broke.

It took my husband a couple more years, but he finally stopped.

He became thoroughly disgusted when we found out that our priest, who married us, baptized our child had to resign after he confessed to pedophilia.

I was disgusted by the overall scandal and lost faith in organized religion, my husband still had faith until it hit close to home. He would go to church with my son, without me. I felt really bad for him (my husband) when his faith in organized religion was crushed.

[lib2DaBone]

111. Answer?

I hate churches. Walk away from them.

[judaspriestess]

112. kickee poo

for you!!!

[Firespirit]

114. Some people deserve to be damned

I agree that churches have no business preaching hate toward X group, because that is bigotry.

But I'm not on board with this idea of "we're all human beings and no matter what we do, it should be forgiven." There is this thing called justice, and it's not wrong to call for it.

[BlackVelvet04]

125. We're talking about eternal damnation and that's not for us

to decide. Earthly justice is something apart from that.

[dave29]

115. What should you do if you are not there?

?

[ExtraGriz]

116. great post

hate does exist, people will preach hate, but its our choice to be an audience.

[rodeodance]

118. yes and we are responsible if we sit there and do nothing.

[sueragingroz]

126. Here's a church any liberal christian can get behind:

http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/overview

Of course I'm an atheist... but this church is very mainstream in Canada and it is very cool.

[scheming daemons]

127. That's overly simplistic.

I've been a member of my church my whole life.

It becomes part of your family.


Our priest was forced to resign in shame after being accused of having sex with a pre-teen. Did I leave? No... the church is bigger than one pastor.


Our current priest rails about the evils of abortion almost weekly. I'm pro-choice. Do I leave? No.... I *DISAGREE* with him... but I'm not afraid to be around people I disagree with.


As for "preaches discrimination toward women"... I'm a Catholic. The whole heirarchy of the church involved the subjugation of women. Seen any women priests?

Yet, I'm still there.

Being Catholic is part of who I am.... For some of us... abandoning your church/religion would be like running away from your family just because you don't like some of your family members.


You don't get it.... and you don't get it, because your church (if you have one) is not as much a part of your "self" as it is with others.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

131. Christians condemn everybody. It's called Original Sin.

I refuse to set foot in a Christian church.

They tell us we are all evil because we are human. They are "commanded" to do this -- convert everyone else whether they want to or not.

I've been told personally that I'm evil and that I have to repent or go to hell. The legal term is "duress". They hate humanity from square one. These people cannot understand why I refuse to speak to them. They get their thrills from pointing fingers and feeling superior to everyone else.

We all do things that are wrong and we all make mistakes. That doesn't mean we should be condemned by other humans to an imaginary hell.

Original Sin is hate speech, as far as I'm concerned. It's abusive and causes people to internalize unearned guilt and shame. Some people get suicidal, because they take it seriously. Some people realize their inherent dignity and leave. Realizing that humans can solve problems, not God, is called humanism.

The problem of original sin is a made-up problem. It's a manufactured need for salvation, just like advertising.

My parents didn't raise me that way. I refuse to tolerate that crap. I have more self respect than that.


This is where I hang out: www.uua.org


BTW: The first Unitarian, Michael Servetus, was barbecued in Geneva
by John Calvin in 1553.

[DawgHouse]

132. I left my childhood church

after many years because as I got older I became aware that many of the membership were racist. Not the pastor, but some of the deacons were closet separatists.

My boss left his parish because the priest took a stand on the Schiavo issue that my boss found offensive.

It is not easy to leave a church, especially if you've been there a long time, but it is sometimes the right thing to do.

[olkaz]

134. This is the most ridiculous BS

If your preachers does some crazy crap, even after a talking to, get a new preacher for the church.

Running away from the church solves nothing.

[Skittles]

136. THAT, my dear, is why I do not go to church

no INDEED