Can Sen. Clinton be both her own woman and her husband's wife?

[saltpoint]

This is a political consideration, not a personal one.

She was demonstrably successful prior to marrying her husband. The two of them have impressive triumphs between them. I stood with the Clintons when the Lewinsky matter flared and stand with them still on that count.

Clinton would make history as the first female president. In your view, if she is to be properly assessed, are the criteria for that assessment found in her accomplishments as an individual woman or as her husband's wife?

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. What crap. The boy I married upgrades satellites uplinks; I'm a

computer engineer who taught him math. I had nothing to do w/his other talents.

What does one career have to do w/the other?

[saltpoint]

2. That's the intent of the poll. That's why I posted it.

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. So somebody else can claim that either he or I have less value for

being a successful team? No thanks ... but I accept your good intentions.

[saltpoint]

4. I'm able to pick up on your point, Fredda.

No kidding.

Got it.

[Swamp Rat]

5. LOL!

:hangover:

[saltpoint]

12. - - - -

:hi:

[ThatBozGuy]

106. The poll is a bit of a bait and switch......

Ms Clinton is running on the experience of being her husbands wife and thats in her positives, so there for by her own positioning and no one else, therefore by her definition she shouldn't be measured as her own woman.

[XemaSab]

6. One of the most frustrating things about Hillary

is the inability to seperate her accomplishments from her husband's accomplishments.

Either she gets to take some of the credit AND some of the responsibility for the Clinton administration, or she doesn't.

Also, if you really can't tell where Bill ends and Hillary begins, then aren't we voting for Bill again too? And if a vote for Hillary is a vote for Bill, then how is she her own woman? :shrug:

[saltpoint]

8. Hi, XemaSab. Yes. There is is. The hinge of the poll question.

She builds her profile on accomplishments of her husband's administration without shouldering the blame for its shortcomings and political failures.

It's a crediBILLity gap.

[Cha]

62. CrediBillity gap indeed, Crusoe.

I read they made a decision to bring out bil's accomplishments for her to campaign on so in hilary's world they will take credit where they like and ignore the rest.

I didn't start paying attention to politics until 2000 so I'm not really all that understanding of what bil did except "22 million" new jobs" and it wasn't a fascist takeover like the subsequent 8 years.

We're finding out that hilary has padded her resume and I'm wondering how many perspective employers would hire someone who's so blatantly fattened up their "experience" for the job?

[saltpoint]

69. Hi, zidzi. Plus, I just don't understand with the cash she raised for this

gig why they couldn't have found some better speech-writers and strategists.

My god. Mark Penn?!

[Cha]

71. They wanted to go for the expensive

one who excoriates.

OT, but, I just read where Bill Bradley was on mtp this morning. Did you get to see him?

[saltpoint]

72. Dammit, no, I missed it broadcast and may hope to grab a clip of it later.

I'm big on Bill Bradley.

[Cha]

78. I know :-)

The writer was not being too nice about Bill and I wanted to read what you thought. I know some writers have to have a hook and they don't care if they're unnecessarily mean to someone to make another point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5109145

[saltpoint]

79. Yep. Evidently there's a rash of anti-Bradley sentiment afoot lately.

I think it will blow over and when President Obama takes office, I think Bill Bradley will be prominent in that Cabinet.

[Cha]

84. I just read some more

replies and the last one was giving Bill lots of Kudos! I knew it!

[saltpoint]

86. If not for veep, you know, Bradley would be great at Health and Human

Services.

[Cha]

91. Yes, and Bill Bradley is given

his props by DUers.. it will be amazing to have real caring people running the various departments in our country.

[saltpoint]

92. Dear god yes. We've endured 7-8 years of total crooks, thugs, morons,

and dodo-heads.

Time to put a few class acts in key positions.

[XemaSab]

100. She's basically running as the incumbent

If GHW Bush in 1992 had only run on the first Iraq war, he would have been a shoo-in.

Unfortunately, the economy was in the tank and he had reneged on his promise not to raise taxes, among other shortcomings.

As the incumbent, you're not allowed to pick and choose. :shrug:

[BlackVelvet04]

94. How completely

disingenuous.

Bill's accomplishments are NOT her accomplishments and I don't believe she claims them as such. The fact that she made contacts and garnered information and understanding by virtue of her position as First Lady is indisputable. She was privy to much most people are never privy to. During her time as First Lady she was in a unique situation that opened the doors for her to use her abilities, talents and skills to affect change. She can't undo the fact that she was First Lady nor should she and it in no way diminishes her intelligence, hard work and abilities.

[XemaSab]

101. It doesn't diminish her intelligence, no, but intelligence is not the same as experience

If she's going to use her time as First Lady in the "experience" column of the resume, her accomplishments in that role seem to be failures (health care), entangled with her husband's hard work (Kosovo), or sort of a charm-school graciousness when dealing with tense situations and foreign leaders (Northern Ireland).

If she's going to take credit as the power behind the throne for the good things her husband did, how can you also not hold her accountable for the more lackluster accomplishments of the Clinton administration? NAFTA, ignoring genocide in Rwanda, welfare reform, and so forth?

I'm not saying at all that she should be held to blame for these things, because that's sort of silly. She didn't do these things, so why should we hold her accountable?

But the flip side of that coin is why should we give her credit for good things if we're going to ignore the bad things?

[saltpoint]

107. One of the difficulties she's having is she does indeed claim them

as her own, or rather, makes the assumption that voters will assume she was "highly invested" in those successes, while at the same time miraculously NOT invested in the failures of those 8 years.

That was a mixed period in Democratic party politics.

The poll questions, by the way, cover the full range of responses, including other, but again, it would be obviated if Sen. Clinton were not her husband's wife. Without a doubt, her husband's political celebrity as been an enomrous boost for her at the expense of other Democratics originally in the race.

[anonymous171]

7. She is forever connected to her husbands legacy.

[saltpoint]

9. Agree. Blanche Lincoln was going to run for president in 08. Hillary Clinton

announced and sucked the air out of the room for other women candidates.

And as long as she's in the race with 7 other (original) announced Democratic candidates, she needed to make a compelling case that she was more qualified than they are, and she doesn't appear to have made it.

[libbygurl]

45. And how did she not make her case?

And so she's not allowed at all to make a bid for the presidency since she's Bill's wife? I'll grant she's inextricably linked to Bill's legacy, but that may be a plus or a liability, depending on your POV.

All pres. candidates can run on their record, their character, and their proposals. You seem to have made your mind up already regarding the first. The second, I don't know your thoughts on that. Re the third - all they can offer now are proposals until they assume the presidency, and the deep detail of Hillary's knowledge of what she plans to do beats that of the competition. There is, of course, the additional kink of having proposals go through Congress yet, but I like what I read/hear from Hillary. I also like her strength of character - which some snarkily call other things I don't care to repeat here.

[goldcanyonaz]

10. Without Hillary, Bill would never have become President.

[saltpoint]

11. Without Cuomo's and Tsongas' withdrawal from the race, you mean.

The 60 MINUTES interview was a cartoon.

[Cameron27]

13. Without HIllary, Bill would never have re-elected.

[saltpoint]

14. The Pukes ran Bob Dole. My god. Richard Speck could have beat Dole.

[K Gardner]

15. LOL ! You slay me.

[goldcanyonaz]

16. And, Obama beat Alan Keyes, what's your point?

[saltpoint]

17. The point was Hillary was a nonfactor, and then some, in Bill's 96 win

over the hapless Bob Dole.

She played virtually no part in any big gesture of his administration EXCEPT health care, which she bungled badly.

[rodeodance]

18. This poll will be biased because you know dam well there are more

Obama supporters on this site.

Shameful.

[saltpoint]

19. Posting in a political forum on a political topic is "shameful"?

I'm not convinced.

[Forkboy]

21. Everything is shameful to rodeo...I think there's some payola involved for using the word.

;)

[saltpoint]

24. rodeodance knows I respect her views, and have done that often.

She also knows that she can post whatever thread she wants whenever she pleases.

People disagree. I hope she can accept the whole range and not just her personal issues.

[Forkboy]

34. I think rodeo can be very smart, and have enjoyed her posts in the past.

Sadly, this election has turned many I respected into those I have a hard time taking seriously. It's the biggest negative for me on DU during a campaign season. I've seen too many turn into mindless partisan drones, and it'll be hard to take some them seriously again when it's over after seeing this insight into their personalities.

[saltpoint]

35. Yes -- I have a feeling Howard Dean's role in our party is about to

accelerate.

I don't have any inside scoops to relay at all, it's just a hunch, but it's a hunch coming from the deep marrow.

[Swamp Rat]

46. Amen!

:hi:

[rodeodance]

31. and is not my point and you know it.

[saltpoint]

33. In a forum, rodeodance, you can make points as you wish.

Make one, and stop attacking with this "sexist" bullshit.

It ain't sellin'.

[Dr. Strange]

105. Let's do a poll!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5115992

[XemaSab]

102. Looks like "her own woman" is WAY out in front

So much for the push-poll theory. :P

[saltpoint]

108. : ) -- maybe it's a Diebold poll!

[libbygurl]

20. What a sexist post. Stop the pretence of being a Clinton supporter, now or in the past.

A real Clinton backer would never post something as inane and sexist as this.

[anonymous171]

22. It's not sexist.

It's an issue with Clinton's claims and support.

[Breeze54]

77. No, I think it's an issue with others.

Other people, including many pundits, have asked that question.

[saltpoint]

26. We're howling at our house over your post.

Howling.

[libbygurl]

38. Glad to know you got some amusement over it. Howl away!

[UALRBSofL]

30. After reading the OP and the following posts

I can say this is a post to put down Hillary and as such puts all women down as well. In other words it's putting women in there place. This thread isn't about politics, it's about gender bias. I find it discriminatory toward all women, and frankly it disgusts me. GD-P has no place for posts like this. I would suggest to either take it to the lounge or not post this kind of bias at all.

[saltpoint]

32. So when the question is about a woman's individual accomplishments

and the answer is she doesn't have very many, it's "sexist" ?

Sheesh.

[libbygurl]

39. Did you miss her years of work as a US senator from New York?

Stop already with the loaded questions.

[saltpoint]

43. Not at all -- I have acknowledged those years of service.

But other men and women have served longer.

Joe Biden, for example.

Barbara Boxer.

etc.

[libbygurl]

67. Well, Boxer didn't run for prez. I like her. Biden - dunno what happened to him, because ...

...I liked him for a while there, too.

Thing is, why disqualify someone from running for office because their relative did? It's like no relatives of actors should go into the acting business, no children of doctors should become doctors, etc.

Hillary happens to have been married to Bill - why take that against her? She has clearly shown to me her strength of character - how many wouldn't have buckled under long ago after having been what she's been through? That's why I think you are drawing a very weak argument here with loaded dice. (Pardon the clumsy metaphor.)

[saltpoint]

70. Actually, I don't think others are holding her marriage against her.

I think she's ill-advised in using her marriage to advance her career, and that there is an accumulative distrust and dissatisfaction with the Clinton 8 years which is manifest in the Obama success this winter.

There are county-level Dem organizations who would have taken many other Dem noms over HClinton from the git-go, and this was long before she began to lose her polling position.

Boxer SHOULD run for president. I think she'd be damned refreshing.

Agree that her marriage does not disqualify her from her pursuits. It has helped her quite a bit, in some instances, not so much in others.

A lot of the post-08 political analyses is going to hinge on the Clintons' marriage as a very significant factor in the nomination outcome, IMO.

[zabet]

23. Is your wife her own woman

and your wife at the same time?

This is not personal, just seeing
if you are objective enough concerning
the questions posed in the OP.

Name all the male politicians judged
by the actions of their wife, or by
who they married. It just does
not happen that way.

[anonymous171]

27. Name all the male politician whose wives were in elected office before they were.

[zabet]

37. Being as the majority of our

elected politicians are female :sarcasm:

Women are not elected largely
due to sexist attitudes that
paint them as weak.

[saltpoint]

42. More women than ever before serve in public office.

Give us at least a few more weekends to totally re-haul public perception, ok?

[zabet]

49. I know that.

Just pointing out that it happens
to the women who have husbands who
were politicians because statistically
those numbers are higher.

[saltpoint]

52. Yes -- which is why the trajectory favoring women in public service

is on the rise and is encouraging.

Bella Abzug, for example, is my idea of a public servant.

Long, long, long before she is my idea of a female public servant.

Would that she were with us still.

[VotesForWomen]

74. name all the men who put their own careers aside to help their wives get elected to public office.

[saltpoint]

111. I'd start with Bill Clinton, which re-introduces the problem Hillary Clinton is

having.

She is a political celebrity on the back of his presidency, for good and worse, but she (understandably) cherry-picks the good and tries to disown the bad.

It doesn't work that way.

You've tried to frame the argument on sexist grounds. That isn't the question at hand.

[saltpoint]

28. citizen_jane, howdy. You missed the mark on this one.

Either Hillary Clinton is her own woman and deserves credit for it, or she is her husband's wife, he of recent political celebrity, or both, or neither.

Y'all were given the full range of choices.

And you missed the mark.

I'm sorry.

[zabet]

36. No I did not.

Your perception could possibly
be skewed by where you think your
wife stands or should stand in
relationship to the question posed.

Hillary is her own woman. To be
sure she was a confidant, a sounding
board and a source of support for Bill
in his political career. That does not
make her any less of an individual for
helping her partner in life.
A wife is just one of the facets of
Hillary as a woman and one that has little
to do with her qualifications as a Nominee.
Hillary listening to and discussing issues
that Bill faced as president are not what
one considers wifely duties. They are more
in the line of political advisor and consultant.

[saltpoint]

41. Marriage is supposed to be an equal "facet" but what it is in the

case of the Clintons is a liability.

They are not perceived as a plus in all quarters.

That was my hinge.

Look carefully at the number of times Hillary had her husband out there campaigning. Then look at the missteps he made in South Carolina.

Next listen to her attempt to claim credit for Irish peace negotiations and SCHIP -- both challenged by others involved -- as a status-grab because she was her husband's wife.

Finally, how does her record of public service compare with other women's? I'd take Barbara Boxer over her any day. I'd take Barbara Jordan were she still with us. Bella Abzug. And many others -- who are, not incidentally, their own women too, by that standard.

HClinton hasn't lost so much ground because she's female. She's lost ground because she's run a very poor campaign as her husband's wife.

[zabet]

48. You can blame the performance of

her campaign on Bill but I would not.
Bill may have said things that were percieved
as racist or race-baiting in SC but, he did not
tell a lie.

Hillary has lost more ground than anyone
before she ever started campaigning. She
has been the subject of negative press by the
media for many years.

As far as the arguments over SCHIP and the
Irish Peace negotiations, they will disagree
on how much she had to do with it because
they are supporting her opponent.

I know Hillary is not perfect. Hell, who is?

I started as a Biden supporter, went to Edwards
and then went to Hillary.

[saltpoint]

50. Yep. I've followed your path, and applaud it.

Agree that more than one take can be weighed in for any one person's participation.

But the question remains:

Is Sen. Clinton's POLITICAL fortune based on the hinge of her own accomplishment as a woman or as her husband's wife?

[zabet]

51. Not on either one alone but,

also not on both alone.
More weighs in on it than
those 2 things.

[saltpoint]

54. Agree. So I put a full range of options on the poll.

I was hoping to keep this in the poltical realm.

Maybe I didn't word it well in the OP.

[zabet]

55. No problem.

Thanks. There are so few left that
can have a little civil debate in
this forum.

:hi:

[saltpoint]

56. If ever any poster WISHES to have a civil debate on DU he or she would be

wise to PM you in advance and request your attendance and participation.


:thumbsup: :hi:

[zabet]

61. And you too.

:hi:

[Forkboy]

25. I wish people would take her as herself, but I think that's probably unrealistic.

Especially with her constantly bringing up her past accomplishments, such as they are, with Bill. As long as she ties herself to him so will other people.

[saltpoint]

29. Agree. She approved his going around in her behalf, which is a walking

billboard that says, "My husband was the president; vote for me."

[robbedvoter]

40. Yeah...cuz, us womin are only half people - the half that cooks and cleans and carries babies

We can't very well think on our own - thanks for reminding me to iron my hubby's shirt

Then, when I am done, I'll ask him his opinion so I can give you an answer

[saltpoint]

44. Whoops! You forgot the single dads.

You also forgot the fathers who are wonderful, contributory parents.

Careful not to veer into sexism!

[mtnester]

59. Of course, you also forgot the corresponding poll

asking if Mr. Obama can be his own man..etc etc

[saltpoint]

60. Make one of your own if you want.

No one's stoppin' ya.

[mtnester]

65. Nah, yours said plenty

[robbedvoter]

64. Was your post refering to single dads? I only read of married women retaining

their individuality as human being - it's what I answered to. Straw men noted.

[saltpoint]

68. Well, there's a lot of dads out there who do a great job parenting.

[robbedvoter]

95. So they are. OP however had NOTHING to do with parenting, neither did my reply

[bain_sidhe]

47. Hillary is a red ball

(My favorite analogy for complicated things, and I'm going to inflict it on you here. Sorry. But not very.)

A red ball is round. A red ball is red. The attributes are separable--if you take away the red, that does not affect the roundness. If you squash it and take away the roundness, that does not effect the red.

But it takes both attributes to make a red ball.

**edited for clarity. And typos.**

[saltpoint]

58. I like the analogy and imagery.

True of many things.

[bain_sidhe]

63. True of all of us, I think

We're all red balls... the sum of our experiences and knowledge. Take away any major experience or body of knowledge, and we just wouldn't be the same person.

[saltpoint]

66. Agree. Politically, thought, U.S. politics is pointedly compartmentalized.

Hence, there is Eliot Spitzer -- clean-as-a-whistle crusader paying for high-dollar prostitutes.

Franklin Pierce -- by any measure a spectacular failure politically but a man deeply loved and honored by certain of his close friends.

Etc.

[IndianaGreen]

53. Do you think for one minute that Hillary Rodham would have been elected as Senator from NY?

I think not! Hillary has exploited the Clinton name when it was politically expedient. Have you all forgotten how she insisted on being known as Hillary Rodham Clinton, or just as Hillary Rodham way back in Arkansas?

[saltpoint]

57. Hi, IndianaGreen. Up to a certain point, I honestly thought Nita Lowy

would be New York's next senator.

Things changed.

[VotesForWomen]

80. dou you think for one minute that Hillary Rodham didn't help bill het where he got? you sound like o

one ungrateful SOB. i feel sorry for any woman unfortunate to be married to you.

[IndianaGreen]

99. I am a woman asshole!

And I would have divorced Bill if I had been stupid enough to have been married to him.

Everything I got, I got on my own, and I didn't need a man to carry me.

[XemaSab]

103. .

:thumbsup:

[VotesForWomen]

73. can sen. obama be both his own man and his wife's husband? nt

[LisaL]

75. Good question.

[saltpoint]

76. But Senator Obama's wife was never a U.S. president.

You missed the point.

[VotesForWomen]

82. so what? presumably they're a team. you seem fixated on something, and it is you who are missing th

the point.

[saltpoint]

85. Well, this time, I'm pretty sure I understand my own point.

Senator Obama's wife has never served in the White House.

Swear to god.

[Breeze54]

81. Yes, she is doing both.

Simple question, simple answer.

Next! :P

[Drunken Irishman]

83. I think if Hillary ran on her own record, she would have locked this nomination up long ago.

But she tried to have it both ways. She was her own woman, with her own experience, but then used her husband's experience as her own, too. 35 years she told us, but a lot of Democrats were tired of living in the past. Yeah, they loved Bill Clinton, but the Clinton presidency had long come and gone and it was about something new in Washington. This is what propelled Obama in the race, since he offered change. Once this campaign was defined by change, and it was, Clinton lost it. How could she be the change candidate when she had tied her campaign so closely to Pres. Clinton? That isn't to say she did not have some impact on her husband's presidency, but had this only been about HER record instead of "we did this," and "we did that," like the campaign was, I think she would have done far better than she is doing right now.

[saltpoint]

87. Lively post on Hillary Clinton by a very good writer, Lynda Obst.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lynda-obst/women-of-my-generation-ha_b_91468.html

[XemaSab]

104. This is a FIESTY article!

I hate when women identify as victims, act like victims, and love victims. And Hillary, as strong as she is, wins as a victim. That is the trajectory of her career. I am a victim. Punch. So why are women whining and the identifying with being the victim again? This is so un-Tina! Hillary was the victim of an oppressive media? Of being asked the first question? Poor baby. All that good coverage on Obama was about being the victor of 11 primaries in a row -- excuse us! And is Barack playing the victim of a real calumny? On Clinton's answer to the known question: "Are you a Muslim?" "Not as far as I know?" Are you not ashamed?

[Dinger]

88. Punk Post

That is all.

[saltpoint]

89. Well, thanks for weighing in.

[Dinger]

90. No Problem

[cboy4]

96. ....

:spray:

I wish I had your disposition!

You know, even when people disagree around here, the humor sometimes can be priceless. lol

[bklyncowgirl]

93. Didn't Bill Clinton once tout them as "two for the price of one."

In my mind Bill and Hillary are inextricable. I've always thought that he was the brain and she was the balls of the family. Or since both have brains aplenty, he was the charmer and she the enforcer.

He would never have become president had Hillary not had his back as rumors of his sexual excesses flew. He put her in charge of health care reform, she tried and failed. Once again she had his back (aside from reportedly hurling a lamp at his head) during the Lewinsky scandal.

She would never have been elected Senator from New York as Hillary Rodham. Her accomplishments in the Senate are her own and by all accounts she's been a very good, hard working Senator. Had she not voted for the Iraq war (also known as the biggest foreign policy blunder in modern American history) and strongly supported that war until she decided to run for president, I could have supported her on that record.

They're a team and imagining one without the other is almost unimaginable.

[120cars]

97. What a sexist post

Doubting a woman's ability to lead. It doesn't surprise me anymore.

[saltpoint]

109. A sexist post would deny outright Hillary Clinton's capacity based on

her sex.

This poll does nothing of the kind.

[JohnnyLib2]

98. Mold breaker, precedent setter, has done it her own way.

Ditch the poll; we are in a different era. :dem:

[saltpoint]

110. What era would that be -- one in which a feminist icon like Geraldine

Ferraro sings dung at other Democrats based on race?

Increasingly, Senator Clinton and her team leave the impression that it is they who are unaware that a new era is at hand.