The Problem is... We're Part of the Problem.

[Bonobo]

I have come to the conclusion that echo-chambers like this are a terrible place to try to advocate for a complex position on ANY divisive issue.

Generally, it is not conducive to long, nuanced communication because of many limiting factors; Like TV in some respects. Invariably, short messages packed with inflammatory, inflexible attacks grab more attention than long, deep-thought attempts at reaching out to the other side in an attempt at reaching a resolution or consensus. Furthermore, it is horrible for communicating emotions and feelings! Most of us involuntarily lump the posters here into our own pre-constructed "archetypes" and always take the WORST interpretation of what they say in an attempt to "win" the argument rather than trying to understand and breach the gap.

It's sad. It's also inevitable in this format, I think. People get together. They want to be nice, they say..."Nice weather" for a while. Then they get bored and start bitching about someone. Human/Primate nature, I think.

But still, it's good to be aware of and to remember again from time to time.

Echo-chambers and ear-muffs.

The loudest are often the most ignorant, while the real thinkers and doers just lurk and read -their very existence unmarked in "INTERNETLAND" where only the loudest (or rarely, the most eloquent writers with time on their hands) are heard and acknowledged.

Ironically, we both overestimate and underestimate the importance and significance of a place like DU.

Many think it reflects the reality of what is going on in the outside world. They may say "Hillary supporters are so obnoxious and full of themselves that I have decided that there is something wrong with Hillary" or "Obama is really hurt by this Wright thing because he sounds defensive", etc.

Others here think that DU affects the outer culture as a part of the media. I.E. People read DU on the internet and are influenced in how they vote.

In truth though, this kind of echo chamber merely hardens our positions by providing us with the kind of ammunition or "proof" to justify positions we already hold due to our preconceptions.

[Imagine My Surprise]

1. Finally, a sensible post. Thank you.

I think things are fucked up beyond any cosmetic difference an Obama or Hillary can pretend to offer.

[Fresh_Start]

2. I'm inclined to agree with you

while the online world has the potential to allow us to bridge gaps
it also has the ability to allow us to reinforce the gaps that exist

We're doing another us/them.
Not just between Du'ers and Freepers...
but we're willing to subdivide and destroy Obama Du'ers, Clinton Du'ers, Du'ers who believe either are acceptable, Du'ers who believe neither are acceptable

Its a good thing there's no ability to launch physical attacks from DU boards...otherwise I think they would be a lot of wounded DU'ers

[Bonobo]

5. I think if people realized they weren't changing opinions, they would just stop this.

Imagine you are sharing a coffee and croissant with a friend and next to you, is an intelligent-looking older woman wearing an "Abortion Rights" button. You know she's a liberal cause she's got the button and the denim jacket.

You say, "Hi. What do you think of this whole Democratic primary thing? Isn't Obama great? He's a real communicator!"

She replies, "Well, I'm a die-hard Hillary supporter. I think she's the one with the real credentials although I admit she doesn't give speaches the way he does!"

Now, in a coffee shop, with a kool, grey pony-tailed hipster in a denim jacket woman next to you, one thing you would NOT SAY is:

"Yeah, you Hillbots are all the same. Why does the idea of black president threaten you so much?"

to which she would not respond:

"I knew it. He's a cult leader. You can't name one real thing he ever did can you? Well, can you? You see!"

It doesn't happen that way in real life. It SHOULD not happen here.

[Fresh_Start]

7. I think we might even be able to discuss politics with people who don't agree with us

but sites like DU or FR are not intended to be places to change peoples minds.
They are intended for groupgropes for like minded individuals.

Mores the pity.
I should point out that DU ALLOWS more diversity of opinion than FR. I got banned after exactly one post where I blandly asked whether they thought the administrations actions re outing Plame were legal.

[housewolf]

3. Good point

Thanks for posting.

[anonymeme]

4. Nice Honest Try at Peacemaking, But Forums Are For Discussion & Debate And That's Not Always Pretty.

Nice Honest Try at Peacemaking, But Forums Are For Discussion & Debate And That's Not Always Pretty.

This isn't a dinner party at which everyone is going to be on their best behavior and careful not to offend the easily offended.

If it was, what would be the point?

And maybe we can't change any minds here, but at least we can show solidarity with those who believe as we do, so they don't lose heart.

[Bonobo]

6. The problem is that there is NO DISCUSSION AND DEBATE.

Don't you see that?

It's like the Monty Python argument sketch:

M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.

[anonymeme]

8. Thanks, Bonobo... I Think... Although I Now Have an Itty-Bitty Headache... *L*

You reminded me of the first time my husband and I every played the game Jenga.

We made it to the 36th story -- arguing the whole time whether it was a cooperative game -- my POV -- or a competitive game -- his POV.

But in the end it doesn't really matter if you've done some amazing things in the process and built something wonderful in the end!

[Bonobo]

9. .