Hey! If Kerry is electable....

[CTLawGuy]

why the hell are so many here worried about a few leftists not liking him?

I was under the impression that every moderate in the country was going to come running to someone who served in the Vietnam War.

Nader is nobody. For every leftist that supports Nader, 3 moderates support Kerry, right?

Why is everyone so worried? Are we doubting our own propag... I mean theory?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Your vote for Nader

you vote for Bush, it is THAT SIMPLE... and yes Nader has
actually received suport from the RNC

[CTLawGuy]

2. ok, I agree

but so what? Why waste breath on it? Those nader voters have a zillion moderate replacements.

[David Dunham]

3. Nader is a loser and worse even than Bush to many moderates.

[NoPasaran]

4. It's not so much their votes

It's their souls that trouble us.

[CTLawGuy]

5. why?

Who cares about their souls?

[NoPasaran]

9. Because

If they vote for Nader because they have some stick up their ass over Kerry or the DLC or some other lameass leftwing excuse then they are eternally damned.

[JHBowden]

13. I think we're all damned in *this* world

if Bush gets four more years, SC judges, etc.

If that doesn't worry people, then something is wrong.

[Monte Carlo]

6. Hello? Can you hear me, back there in March?

Electibility is something for the primaries. Sometimes you have to live with a candidate you didn't like then.

[CTLawGuy]

7. electability is WHY those people in Iowa

picked Kerry. Most of them agreed with Dean on the issues. We have Kerry now, becuse of his "electability."

[Monte Carlo]

10. So what's your point?

We picked a lousy nominee? Either case, he's OUR nominee now, and I don't see what this lamenting is going to accomplish.

[H2O Man]

14. I'm curious, too ....

about what exactly darboy's point is? Please explain.

[CTLawGuy]

16. Im trying to get you to stop

harassing people who criticize Kerry as if what they are doing will destroy his candidacy.

Its really turned this board into something shameful.

Im also using the same rationale Kerry supporters used to help him get nominated to call into question those same supporters current attitude toward dissidents.

[H2O Man]

20. Oh, okay.

I can't recall doing that. I certainly don't think that Kerry is perfect, and for that reason I have never hesitated to make serious and constructive comments about him. But, I must plead guilty to wanting to make sure that whoever the democrats run beats bush. I had said long ago that Kerry was not my 1st choice, or even my fifth choice, but because he is the nominee, I will support him 100%. Perhaps an important thing for many people on here would be to define what an effective "leftist" is, as well as what it is not. It simply means to effect change in a positive direction, for the benefit of the average people. It means working together with those who may hold some different views. It means having that maturity to see the connection between what we do today, and it's impact on the future. Further, being a "leftist" does not mean being bitter when you don't get your own way. It does not mean trying to cause dissention among the effort that holds the promise to effect that positive change. It means having an open mind.

[emulatorloo]

12. Says You!

I picked Kerry because I picked Kerry.

Dean and Kerry were my top two.

Dean was too conservative for me.

Others here in Iowa told me the same.

[Frances]

8. About 48%

of the country will vote for Bush even if God comes to earth and is the Democratic nominee.

The people who voted in the Dem primaries thought Kerry would have the best chance to get 51% of the vote.

If you are saying that you want Bush for president, then by all means vote Nader.

[JHBowden]

11. Kerry is electable, AND he needs the votes of leftists.

Voters could have selected an unelectable candidate the needed the votes of leftists, but that would be stupid.

[CTLawGuy]

15. how about we should have picked a candidate

who leftists would be proud to support and then tried to conivince swing voters those policies are good. That would have been easier.

I realize that we can't do anything about that now.

BTW, couldn't I argue that Kerry is unelectable if he can't get leftists to like him? You seem to agree that Kerry is "electable" but also NEEDS the votes of leftists. However, he's having trouble getting those votes. And to some people around here, that means he's going to risk losing.

[H2O Man]

17. The question remains:

What exactly is your point? Would you advocate that self-defined "leftists" support Kerry? Not support Kerry? Or should they be passive-aggressive in their approach, in hopes that Kerry will make a hat-in-hand appeal to them?

[CTLawGuy]

19. Im supporting Kerry becuase I can't stand Bush,

but I will not rule out advocating a primary challenger in 08, should he win, and should I feel that Kerry is a less-than-adequate president.


Leftists will do what they do... they will be more likely to be cooperative however if they are not bullied into "falling in line", with accusations of secretly supporting Bush.

[Monte Carlo]

18. If by 'leftists' you mean 'darboy'...

... then I don't know why Kerry can't get you to like him. He may have trouble getting the 'leftists' votes, but he will get a lot of them.

[CTLawGuy]

21. maybe I can shed light....

"... then I don't know why Kerry can't get you to like him. He may have trouble getting the 'leftists' votes, but he will get a lot of them."



1. Kerry supports corporate Tax Cuts.
2. Kerry implied that Bush would win the war on terrorism.
3. Kerry supports middle class "tax cuts" at the expense of social programs and a balanced budget. (I thought that republicans would believe that the middle class would be better off with tax cuts than social programs.)
4. Kerry voted for the IWR and has not, to date, apologized for it.
5. Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, along with a zillion other dems I realize that, without reading it first. He has not, to my knowledge, apologized for voting for it.
6. Kerry is running an "I'm not Bush" strategy, rather than a substantive campaign.
7. Kerry voted "present" on the meidcare bill that he skipped a primary debate to help filibuster. He has not, to my knowledge, explained or apologized for that.
8. Kerry told Spain that pulling their troops out of a failed occupation is equaivalent to a victory for terrorists.
9. Kerry supports forced community service as a requirement for graduation from high school.
10. Kerry uses his vietnam service for political gain in a way that I believe would make the John Kerry of 1971 embarassed.

he will get a lot of leftists votes, but they won't be happy about it.

[H2O Man]

22. I would venture that

I am as much of a "leftist" as anyone on here. I'd be glad to compare my "credentials" with anyone who is claiming to represent "leftists" and says they do not support Kerry. It's not necessary to discuss if anyone is supporting Kerry in 2008. We need to unite in an effort to kick bush & co. out of the White House. Let's not be sore losers here. I supported someone other than Kerry, but he lost. Being mature means you don't pout or have a hissy fit when you don't get your own way in every single thing in life.

[CTLawGuy]

23. look at post 21 and see if that's having a hissy fit...

Kerry diverges with a lot of Dems, not on tiny insignificant issues, but on MAJOR issues, such as war, and tax policy.

[H2O Man]

27. Actually, it was an interesting list.

In many ways, it would seem more a definition of "main-stream" democratic party values than "leftist" thought .... which is fine. Yet the fact remains, if we were to put these concepts and values on a cultural graph that represents our nation -- today -- and we agree that bush & cheney are found on the far right, and Kerry somewhere near the center (though we agree further to the right than we like), then the simple truth remains: to move our country from bushland to the promised land, we need to journey through that territory that Kerry defines. True leadership does not insist upon trying to move a population faster and farther than it is capable of moving. But it does keep a focus on moving in the correct direction, and coordinating efforts with those who are moving in the same direction.
It can not include creating tensions that are likely to cause a weakening in the movement, and can allow others to create shifts that will move us further to the right. So, while I agree wiith you list of concerns, your tactics create an equal concern.

[blm]

25. Many longtime leftists KNOW Kerry's record and are glad to vote for him.

It only seems to be those who have confused the hot rhetoric Dean the longtime centrist used during the primary and the facts of Kerry's REAL longtime leftist record who have a continuing problem with supporting Kerry.

I could care less how long they balance that chip on their shoulders. There are more people out there who will bend to the truth than there are who hold on to deluded perceptions.

I trust that Kucinich will shine the proper light where needed. He is an honest voice that wants to see Bush's days in power over come November. I'll depend on that truth being heard by enough people who care more about the survival of democracy than their own hurt feelings.

[JI7]

24. most liberals do support John Kerry

most liberals like myself do support john kerry and are long time supporters of his.

if you don't want to vote for kerry then don't vote for him.

[Nashyra]

26. It's about winning the fucking election

then we can put the pressure on him to govern from the left. Just like they did to *. It comes down to a simple choice, four more years of the * to make a "statement" or Kerry no matter what to give change a chance. I'll admit I could give a rats ass about principle at this point in time, to quiet the hostility and the savagery that this administration has brought to the world can only be brought about by regime change here in the US. So if you want the war or wars to continue and you want the same ole same ole probably worse vote for Nader. I'd like to see what the "leftisit" Nader supporters will do if the * gets re elcted and their friends and family start getting drafted for the War for Oil, you know the one that the
G (gas) O (oi) P (petroleum) party is advocating. Change can only occur when the status quo becomes painful enough, well the status quo has become painful enough for this voter so I will work, advocate and defend the Democratic nominee to the best of my ability. Flame away I could fucking care less.

[Cocoa]

28. I'm more annoyed than worried

I agree that Nader's effect will be virtually zero, but that doesn't stop Kerry bashing by supposed Nader supporters very annoying in the meantime.

[tedzbear]

29. This is good against evil!

Now that Bush/Cheney have taken their gloves off and are punching with their hypocritical iron fists, I hope Kerry slams them back with steel.

Comic book metaphor: Kerry is platinum (truth) and Bush is lead (lies).

[no name no slogan]

30. Gimme an F! Gimme an E! Gimme an A! Gimme an R! What's that spell?

Yep, you got it: FEAR

Today's Democrats (at least the leadership) is a pretty pathetic lot, even given the primary season. So many of them are so AFRAID of not being as "tough" as the Repubs that they buy into the right-wing's propaganda.

Unfortunately, they let this fear dictate how we battle the Repubs in the general election. Everybody's all worried about how we have to look "tough on terror", or people will be afraid to vote for us. We have to be "tough on crime", or "tough on drugs", or "tough on _______ (insert favorite issue here)".

Enough already. We've been waging a "war on terror" since the early 80s during the Reagan administration. What's the result? 9/11, the Marine barracks bombing in Beruit, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings in east Africa. A steady escallation in violence and death over the past twenty years, and greater hatred of the US across the world. Some "war", huh?

SOMEBODY has to stand up and break the cycle of violence. But, unfortunately, we're so wedded to the idea that we'll look "weak" if we refuse to bomb somebody that we're TOO AFRAID to do so.

We have to stop playing the game the way the right wing wants us to play it. Let's talk about HOPE. Let's talk about making the economy work for EVERYONE, not just the rich. Let's talk about letting countries determine their own destinies, without undue influence from multinational war profiteers. Let's offer them butter instead of guns to solve their problems. Instead of telling everyone what they should do, why not listen to what they want to do instead?

Yes, it's important to win, but it's more important to win for the right reasons. What do we win if we out-Republican the Republicans? Is that really a victory?

[sangh0]

32. It sounds like your peddling fear

We've been waging a "war on terror" since the early 80s during the Reagan administration. What's the result? 9/11, the Marine barracks bombing in Beruit, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings in east Africa. A steady escallation in violence and death over the past twenty years, and greater hatred of the US across the world.

Hold me mommy! I'm scared!

What do we win if we out-Republican the Republicans? Is that really a victory?

I'm afraid of winning! Waaaaah!

[seaglass]

31. Because Bush is electable too. Please don't tell me that you

don't get that because it would mean you've been asleep for the last 3.5 years.

Kerry was the most electable of all the candidates who ran for President.

[ACK]

33. WTF are you doing to stop fascism darboy?

Are you contributing to candidates that fit your world view?

Are you out there promoting candidates for local positions like school board and textbook comissions for your state? These local positions are incredibly important and highly ignored by progressives in my opinion.

Are you working to change the platform and push more progressive ideals inside the Democratic party?

Are you fighting hard to make the green party or your third party of choice a viable contender?

Kerry is more liberal than Clinton, Lieberman, and the way the DLC ran Gore last time.

We are talking about revising NAFTA putting the stops on the FTAA and actually talking about healthcare reform in this country again.

Is it a big step? No. Is it a small step in the right direction? Yes.

Make comments and suggestions. Follow threads like the one for a million signatures to move the party platform to a more progressive stance.

Follow Kok01's advice about local candidates and make comments from that angle.

However, making rude comments in April and contributing zilcho back in the form of a constructive post just makes me figure you are a first rate loser disrupter.

Dean has an organization for change. Contribute to it. Do something constructive you reactionary soul.

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