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My Honest Feelings Why I Believe Dean Would Be a Very Weak Nominee (LONG)

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:02 AM
Original message
My Honest Feelings Why I Believe Dean Would Be a Very Weak Nominee (LONG)
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 12:31 AM by DoveTurnedHawk
I am not a "Bash Dean" type of guy. I think he's got his pros and his cons, and I am really not interested in tearing down Democrats, especially when my own chosen candidate obviously eschews such tactics. That said, I think it's absolutely critical that every voter understand exactly what those aforementioned pros and cons are. Dean's pros are that he brings lots of money and support, and that he is not afraid to take it directly to George W. Bush.

That said, Dean also brings many, many cons to the table, in my honest opinion.

1) Dean is a moderate who is perceived to be a liberal by the general public. This results in a double-whammy for liberal Democrats, namely a candidate who is less likely to be elected in the general election, and less likely to enact the reforms you want in the event he manages to get elected.

The standard response I've seen to this is some combination of, "Dean and his supporters will single-handedly take back the language and attitude that have been pervasive throughout this country for the last few decades, and make being perceived as liberal a good thing again," and "Dean will energize the base, so we don't need those squishy moderates and conservatives anyway."

I find both arguments exceedingly unpersuasive. While it's certainly POSSIBLE that Dean and his supporters will single-handedly be able to reverse decades worth of inculcation by the whore media and the Republicans, and suddenly make being perceived as "liberal" a good thing again, I certainly don't find it all that PROBABLE. It's a long-shot, and I don't like taking chances on something as big, as important to all of us, as the upcoming election. Much more likely, I believe the Republicans will ratchet up their well-financed attack machine and fit Dean into a comfortable target box: Dean is an angry, liberal, out-of-touch governor of a small New England state (that elects Socialists to Congress, to boot). I personally believe those attacks will work, especially since the stock Dean supporter response of, "Dean won't sit and take it like Dukakis did, he'll fight back," fits neatly into the "angry, negative Democrats" stereotype that the RNC is ALREADY pushing online.

As for the "energize the base" argument, first of all, the base will most likely ALREADY be energized, since most of us view Bush as such a travesty. Second, elections are won and lost on a grand scale, you need tens of millions of votes to move the needle, and in light of the historically declining number of self-identifying Democrats and increasing number of self-identifying Independents, those votes are typically better sought from the broad middle than the shrinking left, who are already more likely to vote for the eventual Democratic nominee this year than in 2000, no matter what a few dedicated partisans might say to the contrary. Before you respond by saying, "But the base has only been shrinking because the spineless Dems in Congress haven't stood up to Bush," please check the statistics. This trend has been happening for many, many years, if not decades.

Even if Dean gets elected, however, that will mean we're electing a man who most of his well-educated supporters have conceded is, at heart, a moderate. I am a Democrat, and despite my perception here as being a moderate Democrat, I consider myself to be significantly more liberal than Howard Dean, certainly. Ideally, I don't want a candidate who is more moderate than me, I want a candidate who combines "liberal" and "electable" as well as possible.

2) Dean has no foreign policy experience whatsoever, and this is a critical flaw in our post-9/11 world. Dean's stock responses, namely that Bush didn't have any foreign policy experience either, and that Dean will assemble a crack team of advisors, are both exceedingly unsatisfying to me. First, I don't really think we need any candidate to compare himself or herself too closely to Bush in the general election, because it does the candidate a disservice, to which Dean himself has so often alluded.

Second and much more importantly, however, the two situations are readily distinguishable: before 9/11, Bill Clinton left us with the joy of being prosperous, and the sole superpower in the world. Foreign policy experience in the 2000 election was NOT a critical criterion in a candidate for that very reason. But now we are perceived to be in the midst of a dire war by most of the American public, and foreign policy is very much on their minds, especially when the Republicans use their well-financed attack machine to fit Dean into another very comfortable target box: Dean is a typical, unpatriotic Democrat who is weak on defense and foreign policy. Again, I personally believe those attacks will work, especially since the Dean response of attacking George Bush's foreign policy failures once again fits neatly into the aforementioned "angry, negative Democrats" stereotype.

Potentially much more importantly, those attacks on Dean might work, and might work very well, due to the capture of Saddam Hussein and the very real possibility that such capture will indeed make American troops in Iraq safer, since they give Bush a reasonable counter-argument. He can say that his foreign policy has NOT been a miserable failure now (even though we all know it has been), and the American public, content with the pap fed to them by the complicit mass media, will probably go along. So Bush will say, in a world that is still unsafe, do you want a proven leader who has led this country with firm and clear resolve, or do you want someone who will need training wheels on the job?

3) Dean's plan to repeal all of the Bush tax cut effectively raises taxes on the poor and the middle class, and this will go over like a lead balloon with the American public. Dean's response, that the poor and the middle class have actually been paying MORE in taxes and costs associated with service cuts after the Bush tax than before, is too complicated to sell easily, especially when the Republicans use their well-financed attack machine to fit Dean into YET ANOTHER very comfortable target box: Dean is a tax-and-spend liberal who wants to raise YOUR taxes, middle-class soccer moms and NASCAR dads who actually vote. Again, I think those attacks will work, since the truth is at its core: any way you slice it, if Dean enacts his plan, the poor and the middle-class will be paying more in federal taxes.

Dean's defense here, namely that the increase in taxes will be more than offset by restored benefits and services, MIGHT technically be true. It does NOT follow, however, that the ONLY path to restoring services is to raise taxes on the poor and the middle-class. There are many alternatives. You could raise the taxes on the wealthy EVEN MORE (my preferred solution), while keeping the tax cuts on the poor and middle class. You could cut spending in other areas that do not provide services, such as defense spending (Dean has vowed to maintain the defense budget at current levels, unlike other candidates who have vowed to cut it by as much as 15% or even 25%). Or you could continue running a deficit, a position traditionally embraced by Democrats when faced with the alternative of cutting services.

4) Obviously, your mileage may vary GREATLY on this, but I have a real problem with certain elements of Dean's personality and character. This subject has been both hashed out so many times before here, and is also admittedly based a great deal on subjective criteria, so I will decline to address certain of my concerns here. I will say this, however. IMO, Dean is more susceptible to this type of charge than any other candidate, especially when the Republicans use their well-financed attack machine to fit Dean into, you guessed it, another very comfortable target box: Dean is a flip-flopping, arrogant, egotistical, stretches-the-truth-to-the-breaking-point Democrat just like his new soul mate, Al Gore.

I will also note that on two separate occasions, with two different candidates, Dean and/or his campaign has willfully spread lies in order to stay on message. The first time is with respect to Wesley Clark. Dean's campaign decided the proper message against Clark was to paint him as a Republican. So shortly after Clark entered the race, Dean lied to everyone when he said that Clark was a "Republican until 25 days ago." I am sure Dean knew better than that, since Dean is a smart man who breathes politics, IMO. But even if you give him the benefit of the doubt, even if you think that Dean genuinely believed that statement, after Clark got in his face about it, you'd think Dean would think twice before doing it again. But just a couple of days ago, Dean's spokesman, very shortly after insisting (rather ironically) that Dean's message was a positive one, decided to slam Clark AGAIN on this subject, saying that Clark can't "make up for a lifetime of voting Republican. We're looking forward to seeing the Nixon-Reagan-Bush-Rumsfeld-Cheney ad." Clark's "crime" that prompted this vicious attack? He dared to use stock footage of Clark and Clinton together in a complimentary fashion. Talk about a "nuclear" response for an innocuous occurrence that wasn't even targeted at Dean!

The second time is with respect to Dennis Kucinich. Dean's campaign decided a long time ago that the proper message for the entire campaign was that Dean was the only one to oppose the war, even though that's certainly not true. But Dean goes out with a TV commercial anyway, saying that very thing. Kucinich gets in Dean's face about it on national TV at a debate. Dean qualified his statement, saying he only meant the only "major" candidate, or whatever. Fine. Again, even if you give Dean the benefit of the doubt on this, after Kucinich got in his face about it, you'd think Dean would think twice before doing it again. But again, just a couple of days ago, a glossy mailing went out, once again repeating the lie that Dean was the only one to oppose the war, or whatever. Yes, there might be absolutely tortuous convolutions of the English language that might, in the mind of some ardent Dean supporters, justify the statement and somehow magically make it not a lie. But I think most people who are paying attention, and are being honest about it, will acknowledge and agree that it was, in fact, a lie.

I don't like politicians who lie for any reason, and I especially don't like politicians who lie just to stay on message. That's no message I want to hear, personally. And it bothers me that Dean doesn't appear to have any problems with this type of behavior.

Those are my honest thoughts, feel free to take 'em or leave 'em, as you choose.

DTH
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Very sound, astute, thoughtful...
...reasonable, fair, clear, and logical.

So it has NO PLACE in this forum. :spank:

I'd say we have 85-90% agreement on your analysis. I appreciate your taking a stand on the lies, and how they played against the Kucinich campaign.

I wish you good luck. I took the reasonable tack once, and it made no difference on the level of hostility and willful ignorance I was met with - but like me, you seem to have a thick skin. :-)
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Thanks Man
I do have a thick skin, and besides, I've got about half of the really out there Dean supporters on Ignore already. :D

DTH
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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Amazingly On Point. Thougthfully argued. How Come its not Locked?
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. LOL
Oh, maybe some un-named over zealous supporters who like to call flamebait on posts they don't like have gone to bed.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
117. teee heee heee...That was funny as hell n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
36. Looks like your prediction came true
And I will not be surprised to see a lot more to come.

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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. if Dean's weak, then the rest of the pack must be complete feebs
and that includes Clark.

your reasons why Dean may turn out to be weak are based on speculation, as are your reasons why Clark may turn out to be strong. you're applying 100% negative speculation against Dean, and 100% positive speculation where Clark is concerned. that's your privilege of course, but in the end it's not very convincing.
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
145. Way to win is for Party to LIFT UP their best leader. Primary Process suck
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. OK. Here's my short version of the defense for Dean..
1) Dean is a CENTRIST not a moderate.

2) So was Bill Clinton, and he turned in one of the best foreign policies in US History.

3) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=101480

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=5119

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=17310

(thanks to dsc)

4) Dean is one of the most consistent politicans. Yes, he may flip-flop, but he stays on the message. Clark flip-flops far too much, my friend...

Hawkeye-X
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BobbyJay Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. IMO it's easier for Clinton to present himself as a centrist than it is
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 12:33 AM by BobbyJay
for Dean. The whole Vermont whacko thing will be hard to shake.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. I think Dean's record in Vermont *5 term Governor and all* will
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 12:36 AM by mzmolly
bode well for him in the GE. He is, in fact a pragmatic leader who accomplished much (according to the people who elected him 5 times.)

So I don't think there is much to 'shake' there really.
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BobbyJay Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
88. Don't believe me? Just wait
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
118. If you think Dean is a centrist then why does most everyone else
who support Dean say that he is a Liberal taking the party to the left?
I thought the whole problem was that the DNC had moved to far to the center and Dean was taking it back to where it belonged...to the left?
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #118
136. lol, good point
What is Dean, exactly? Do all his supporters even agree?
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. You don't like politicians who lie for any reason?
So I assume you're not supporting any of the nine Democratic contenders for president, nor are you a supporter of Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham Clinton?

I can cite lies that every major candidate has told, as well as a whole big long laundry list of lies by the Clintons. . .
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. tell me one lie Kucinich has told
besides his slip up in a Michigan debate where he said 300 people were murdered in a month(a statement he said after the debate was a slip-up as I don't think 300 people have died in a city in america during one month).

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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Remember, you asked for it, man
I like Dennis, but like every other Democratic candidate, he's told whoppers. The biggest is on abortion.

Kucinich claims, "I became increasingly disturbed about politicization by the Republican Party and moves toward the criminalization ." Kucinich cited extremist legislation proposed to ban contraceptives. Yet Kucinich voted for that exact same ban on contraception for women in federal employee insurance plans.

If people are going to insist on purity tests from candidates, they're going to get burnt, including Dennis.
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. links...
where are these quotes coming from? where is the record of his vote?
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. If you insist. . .
Scroll down to the bottom of this article here: http://www.pulsetc.com/article.php?sid=583

Also, take a look at http://dennisthemenace.blogspot.com/

Finally, take a look at Kucinich's voting record at plannedparenthood.com.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. So you've got-
an article, a blog that is clearly anti-Kucinich, and the PP voting record...

Unfortunately that doesn't show us the legislation or the vote, the blog-spot is pathetically biased in any case and much of its content is false (I've read it before), and Dennis has never once denied his former PL stance. There is no lie here.
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
52. exactly...no lies by Kucinich
just a bad voting record on one issue that he has now been enlightened upon.

which in itself is a good thing and something he should be applauded for.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #52
82. Kucinich just HAPPENED to turn pro-choice day he launched campaign
God visited him the night before his campaign launched and he miraculously changed his mind just before his campaign launch rally.

RIIIIIIIIght.
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #82
94. show me links
of such accusations...

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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #94
99. The announcement of his position came out day of start rally
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 01:44 AM by mouse7
Go look at his website. The date of the kickoff and the date of the position change are the exact same.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #99
143. Check your facts--you're wrong.
Find the last time he voted against Choice. It was years ago.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #39
57. The argument that Kucinich has never, ever lied is a hoot
But believe what you will. Go to the media and proclaim Kucinich has never lied. Don't let me stop you. :)
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #57
74. Oh I'm sure he has lied sometime in his life...who the hell hasn't?
there is a difference between lying about policies and lying about how much much you weigh or how old you are though.

you still haven't made your case in catching Kucinich in a policy lie or any lie at all for that matter(weight or not).

So please...keep digging since you said you had proof.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #74
79. Kucinich has lied about policies
If you consider a flip-flop on abortion out of opportunism to be dishonest, which most people would.

Does that make him horrible? Of course not. I love Dennis. But please, please, please drop the "holier than the pope" schtick.
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #79
92. how is it dishonest?
he is being honest.

he would be dishonest if he still believed in his pro-abortion past and saying he was pro-choice, that is not the case.

or giving remarks that can be perceived as having it both ways...with IF statements and whatnot(something Dean likes to use a lot..."i'm for the 87 billion in Iraq/Afghanistan but only if it comes from Bush tax cuts"...which then Dean later says he is against the whole plan in itself...that is a lie and an example of dishonesty)...but Dennis has been honest about his position the whole time. It may be a different position than from what he held 2 years ago...but it has been an honest change and honest remarks to go with it.

I'll repeat again...show me where Dennis Kucinich has lied.
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #27
49. your point has NOT been made...
you didn't give the full context of his quote.

“I became increasingly disturbed about politicization by the Republican Party and moves toward the criminalization .” Kucinich cited extremist legislation proposed to ban contraceptives. “Mostly, I listened to a lot of women. What became clear to me is this isn’t only about choice. If women can’t make these decisions for themselves, they can’t take their equal place in society. That’s what’s at stake.”

Furthermore...I went to the planned parenthood site...searched for Dennis and did not see anything about this supposed vote he made. And if he did make this vote it was before he was enlightened on the issue. No one is denying DK's pro-abortion record...what is being debated here is has DK lied about anything...you have failed to show me how DK has been caught in a lie.

and the dennis the menace site is laughable...I can't believe you linked to that as part of your attack. haha.

please...show me some DK lies...come on.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #49
60. Wow, never doubt the power of the true believers!
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 12:57 AM by Brian_Expat
As I noted, anyone who thinks their candidate has never, ever bent the truth needs to take a deep breath.

Hint: Flip-flopping on abortion to capture the Dem nomination and then claiming "evolution" is bending the truth.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. You're a Dean Supporter, and You're Criticizing KUCINICH for Evolving?!?
Wow, that is RICH!

Dean has "evolved" on:

Medicare
Social Security
Affirmative Action
Welfare
Campaign Finance Reform (this was an impressive one, it only took him a few months to evolve on this position)

And about half-a-dozen others I'm forgetting right now.

And once again, no one is saying candidates are perfect. But there is a difference between unambiguous lies and even "bending the truth," as you say above.

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. No
As I noted before, every candidate has told their share of whoppers. I am laughing at the all-too-common notion that "only my candidate is honest," and that every other candidate is a dishonest lying sack o' potatoes.

I mean, honestly, if someone really "doesn't like people who lie FOR ANY REASON," (s)he shouldn't be supporting any candidate in this race.
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. you have still failed to show any Kucinch LIES...
so that being said...any lies he must have told...like how he bought a fake ID and used it to get into a bar when he was 17(fake story...just making it up) really aren't that important.

I'll ask again...show me a Kucinich lie.

If he has done one...as you said...there must be proof, no?
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. So some lies are important, others aren't
That's a long way from saying "he's not lied."

And Kucinich's flip-flop on abortion is just as bad as Dean's supposed "corporate flip-flops" that Kucinich advocates rage about -- which is why "holier than thou" rhetoric is so tiresome.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #78
119. You want proof? You got it!
The Kucinich campaign claimed in an email today that "Howard Dean <...> supports sending additional U.S. troops to Iraq (Meet the Press, 6/22)"

Let's check the transcript. Dean actually says
We need more troops in Afghanistan. We need more troops in Iraq now. I supported the president's invasion of Afghanistan for the obvious reasons, what had gone on and the murder of people. But I do not support what the president's doing there now. We need more people there. We cannot be making alliances with warlords in the hope that we're one day going to have the democracy in Afghanistan. And what I would do in Iraq now is bring in NATO and bring in the United Nations, because our troops on the ground deserve better support than they're getting. (Emphasis Added)

He failed as mayor of Cleveland. He thinks he knows it all and refuses to work with others. So he's passed next to no legislation.

He voted with right wing anti-choicers for years. Now that he wants to be President, aware most Democrats are pro-choice he's denying his extreme anti-choice record.

Kucinich flip flopped and sided with right wingers on other issues too. He helped them impeach Bill Clinton, but now he won't help us impeach Bush.

He keeps attacking other Democrats more than he attacks Bush. We don't care who you support, just as long as it's not Bush or Kucinich.

http://www.littletinylies.com/archives/001518.html

I got more if you want...
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #119
139. 'scuze me, but
doesn't (from your post)

We need more troops in Afghanistan. We need more troops in Iraq now.

=

"Howard Dean <...> supports sending additional U.S. troops to Iraq (Meet the Press, 6/22)"

???
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #139
147. "We need more troops in Iraq now" Thanks for pointing that out.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #60
85. what a fallacy
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 01:16 AM by ZombyWoof
If Kucinich flip-flopped on abortion just to appeal to today's moderate Democrats and to pander to middle-of-road swing voters, then why is he still steadfastly against NAFTA, WTO, and for single-payer healthcare, all anathema to today's DLC Democrats? His platform isn't exactly selling out when you look at the whole. (That would be Dean for selling out).

Fact is, Dennis didn't change his views on abortion, he just no longer feels it should be legislated against, or should judges be nominated who will endanger Roe v Wade. I am 110% pro-choice, and I can tell you, whatever reasons he had for changing how he votes, the fact is, he wasn't lying. We should all wish that even the most ardent anti-choicers come around like he did, in terms of the LAW (which differs from personal morality, which he knows the difference, unlike the GOP). He has managed to win his district three times with a huge majority, and abortion was never an issue there, and it isn't one now, in light of the war and the economy, the two cornerstones of his campaign.

Plus, he changed his way of voting before he was drafted to run after his "Prayer For America" speech. Blows your argument all to hell.

But I had fun doing so.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
32. "....no really, it's huge....."
Just kidding, a little levity. Laugh once in a while.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. ROTFL
Ok, I adore Dennis, but you got me with that one!
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Aside From, "I Did Not Have Sex With That Woman," Please Post
the "laundry list" of Bill Clinton lies. Preferably without relying on RW sources.

I look forward to your efforts.

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Bill Clinton, claimed he would fight for gay equality
He instead passed Don't Ask, Don't Tell in the military (breaking his campaign promise over full service in the military).

He also signed the Defense of Marriage Act, in direct contravention of his promise to support federal recognition of domestic partnerships, and to add insult to injury, advertised his support for DOMA on right-wing radio to attract fundamentalist votes.

Those are just two. I could go on and on. . . I think my point stands. Was Clinton a bad president? Hardly. But if you don't like politicians who lie, and you're being honest, then you're sitting out this entire election and most others in the past.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. Clinton did fight for gay equality
Unfortunately, he lost. He didn't promise to win, did he?
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. If you call signing DOMA "fighting". . .
. . . I'd hate to see what he'd do if he capitulated. :scared:

The point is, every politician lies, and anyone who thinks their fave hasn't is either naive or a scary fanatic.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. I'm Not Quite That Cynical, and There Is Also a Difference
Between a clear lie, and a difference in perception.

As far as Bill Clinton and certain others are concerned (including some gay folks I know), I'm sure he really did believe that he fought for gay rights. It's a rather subjective notion, "fighting" for gay rights.

The two instances with Howard Dean that I cite above are unambiguously untrue statements, IMO.

Additionally, I would posit that some candidates are far superior on the issue of honesty than others, despite the cynical viewpoint you appear to espouse.

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. You don't fight for equality. . .
. . . by signing anti-gay bills, Bill.

I would posit that some candidates are far superior on the issue of honesty than others

Perhaps, but the original poster claimed (s)he couldn't support any candidate who lies. In which case, that person cannot support any of the major or minor Democratic candidates for president (or anyone for president at all!)
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. I *Am* the Original Poster, and You Are Badly Mistaken
Perhaps, but the original poster claimed (s)he couldn't support any candidate who lies.

Wow, you REALLY need to read more carefully. Here is what I said:

"I don't like politicians who lie for any reason, and I especially don't like politicians who lie just to stay on message. That's no message I want to hear, personally. And it bothers me that Dean doesn't appear to have any problems with this type of behavior."

As many, many, many people here could tell you, I am certainly not some idealistic purist. I am a pragmatist. I know some compromises are inevitable.

But you still haven't addressed the issue of Dean's clear lies, IMO.

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #46
65. You don't like politicians who "lie for any reason"
Yet you like one of the candidates in the race -- who lies for various reasons.

Just pointing out the silliness at the base of your argument.

Everyone's candidate has told some whoppers, and every single candidate's true believers think that their candidate either hasn't lied, or their candidate's lies were "for our own good" while others' lies were clearly Satanic in origin.

Essentially, I was inviting you to climb off your high horse. :)
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. Please Point Out Where CLARK Has Lied
And I wasn't aware it's silly to dislike dishonesty. In fact, it makes me quite sad that you appear to believe the contrary proposition.

Jesus. Whatever happened to integrity in this country?

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. Oh, man. . .
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 01:09 AM by Brian_Expat
Wesley Clark has never, ever, ever lied. Except when. . .

A) He described Bush's foreign policy team as "great" and said "we need them there."

B) Then decided to run against Bush on foreign policy.

C) Stated he'd vote for the Iraq War Resolution and said he was a lot like other Democrats in that regard.

D) Then said a few days later that he was completely opposed to the War Resolution (after a small media firestorm).

E) Now insists he's been a long-term critic of the Bush administration from the beginning.

Of course, this is painfully spun by the candidate's supporters as "out of context" or in excrutiating detail to insist Clark thought Bush was hunky-dory on Europe but nowhere else.

C'mon, people. Every candidate's supporters should drop the "holier than thou" schtick. It's sad. Talk about policy.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #76
86. None of These Are Lies, Not Like the Dean Quotes, Anyway
A and B must clearly be examined within the context of passage of time.

C and D are not lies, it was Clark misspeaking, as he has admitted.

E, I haven't seen. Clark certainly has been criticizing the Bush administration for a long time, however, the devoid-of-context quotes that the media loves to cite notwithstanding. If you read the remainder of the transcripts from Clark's events where he praised Powell et al., he is very critical of the Bush administration.

Are you really so unable to admit that some people in this world are more or less honest than other people? Come on yourself. It's obvious that some candidates are better on this issue than others, just like some people are. I would like to vote for a candidate who is more honest. Again, no one is perfect. But some are better than others.

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #86
108. Just like I said. . .
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 02:48 AM by Brian_Expat
For you, every flip-flop, change and mistruth spoken by your candidate "must be examined within context," while every one by an opposing candidate is evidence of evil itself and clearly renders him or her unfit for office.

Thanks for demonstrating it so brilliantly. :)
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #108
128. There's a Difference Between Unambiguous Lies and Subjective Opinions
Factually, it is a lie to say, "Dean was the only candidate to oppose the war from the start." That is an unambiguous, categorical statement of "fact." It is a lie to say, "Clark was a Republican until 25 days ago." Again, an unambiguous, categorical statement of "fact."

The only possible defense in these cases would be if Dean was simply mistaken. However, that defense has been destroyed by the fact that he was called on it each time. Thus, Dean KNEW it wasn't a mistake. Yet he did it again anyway. That becomes deliberate lies.

In contrast, offering opinions on the Bush team at time A and different opinions on the Bush team at time B is obviously a function of changing opinion. Admitting that the equivocating answer to a hypothetical question was a misstatement is exactly that.

I'm sorry you are unable (like everyone else here) to defend Howard Dean's statements, and instead must point desperately to a cynical (and false), "They're all liars so who cares" type of argument.

I am sure others will be less cynical, more discerning, and more discriminating in their candidate choice. I applaud them.

DTH
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #108
151. The big problem with Dean's lies...
Is that they have been lies about the other candidates.

As for Clark's machinations, his big problem is that he
voted for Republicans in the past and said some nice things
about Bush and the gang. Now, he has to compensate for that
because the media and some Democrats can't stand the thought
that a politician might not be a partisan hack their whole
life at all times.

As for the rest, they all lie...it's kind of part of the job
description. But the only one I see consistently lying about
the other Dem Candidates is Dean. Shame on him.
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dd123 Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #70
146. Wasn't Clark accused of seriously overcounting number of
tanks destroyed in the Kosovo war?

Found a link:

http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/news/articles/du/security.htm

The same officer said he had found the remains of only 13 Serb tanks in Kosovo - precisely the same figure for destroyed tanks given by the Serbs after the war and 83 tanks fewer than General Wesley Clark, the supreme Nato commander, claimed his aircraft had destroyed.

--this ever been debunked?
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
158. OK I'm curious, what did Edwards lie about ?
I'm honestly unaware of anything not saying its impossible
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. one kick and then you apparantly cant provide one
n/t
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent points
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 12:23 AM by quinnox
All are true, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see Dean is the weakest of just about all the major candidates to field vs. Bush.

Dean has no defense to several points, national security experience? "Uh, I have visited a lot of foreign countries" Sorry, that only works with Dean supporters. Another try, "Um, I will choose a good vice president to plug that hole in my resume" Sorry, but people vote for the top of the ticket, not the bottom of the ticket.

And Dean is from a tiny, obscure state in New England. Vermont carries the grand total of THREE electoral votes. Ain't going to help much. Dean's electoral college chances are weak, and less than weak.

Dean's tax plan does present worrisome problems as well, I can see the RNC commercials now --------- (low voiced narrator) "Dean will raise your taxes".
And I say this as one who recognizes the same weakness in Gephardt's position, a candidate I happen to like.

The base argument is also very well stated, all Democrats will be fired up, and no, sorry, it isn't because of Dean. It is and will be because of Bush. He is such a disliked figure among most Dems, they will eagerly vote for the nominee, no matter who it is. Sure, there will always be a tiny percentage of disgruntled Dems who might not vote if their candidate doesn't win, but it isn't significant statistically.

Bottomline, Dean would lose vs. Bush badly, and probably in the process give the GOP a filibuster proof congressional majority, barring a miracle. If that doesn't scare you, nothing will. And not only that, but he isn't the best candidate from a purely liberal Democrat point of view anyway.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Thanks! I Also Note VT Will Go Dem No Matter What.
We certainly don't need Dean as our candidate to carry VT!

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. "If that doesn't scare you, nothing will"
Nothing like a message of hope and solid ideas to win the election for the Democrats, eh?

* "Tiny obscure Vermont"

* "Dean would lose versus Bush badly"

* "Give the GOP a filibuster proof majority"

ad nauseum.

What Democrats need is a candidate who gives people a need to vote for him/her -- and a candidate who has new ideas for the country. Regardless of your statements, Democrats will not win the election by declaring that if the front runner is nominated, nuclear bombs will rain down on our cities and Satan will arise from the La Brea Tar Pits to claim his dominion on Earth.

That kind of crap is the "politics as usual" that alienates 50% of Americans from the political process and keeps them out of the voting booth -- one reason why the once-majority Democratic Party is now just 33% of the electorate, tied with the GOP.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I Advise You To View All Candidates With a VERY Critical Eye
Because no one's eye will be more critical than George W. Bush's.

What Democrats need is a candidate who gives people a need to vote for him/her -- and a candidate who has new ideas for the country.

Lots of Democratic candidates fit that bill right now.

Regardless of your statements, Democrats will not win the election by declaring that if the front runner is nominated, nuclear bombs will rain down on our cities and Satan will arise from the La Brea Tar Pits to claim his dominion on Earth.

No offense, but I view your statement as rather poor hyperbole. No one is saying that, not me, not the candidates.

That kind of crap is the "politics as usual" that alienates 50% of Americans from the political process and keeps them out of the voting booth -- one reason why the once-majority Democratic Party is now just 33% of the electorate, tied with the GOP.

I repeat: that trend has been happening in BOTH parties for many years, if not decades.

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
68. I don't act out of "fear"
I act out of hope. If I acted out of fear, I'd be dead. You'll have to find another motivator.

Re: your other comment

that trend (party erosion) has been happening in BOTH parties for many years, if not decades

It's been happening much more in the Democratic Party. In 1991, over half of Americans considered themselves Democrats. That's now down to just 33%. Many of those people quit the party because they didn't believe it stood for them, and arguments based out of fear didn't concern them.

Basically, to return to ascendancy, the Democratic party needs a message of hope, optimism, action, decisiveness and principles -- not fear and panic (which is the core of your post).
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
144. Dean is the angry advocate of No Real Change At All
He's bang alongside the status quo. Go to his site and try to find a concrete policy that represents substantive change. I can't find one. Maybe you can.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. So facts are Dean is an opportunistic DINO and is also unelectable.
Gee, no wonder so many Americans are so vehemently against Dean. I thought it was just the Confederate flag, NRA and states rights pandering, but at the end of the day Dems are waking up to the fact that this Dean guy is a custom ordered punching bag for the Bush campaign.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
30. Yea, those things too
There is just so much Dean has flubbed, it's hard to cover it all.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #17
109. How sleazy
People who support a "Democrat" who voted for Reagan and Bush and who has been a registered Democrat for under six months have NO place accusing long-term Democrats who fight for Democratic values of being "DINOs."
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MIMStigator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. your first sentence SAID IT ALL
"Dean is a moderate who is perceived to be a liberal by the general public"

worst of both worlds
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. I prefer
a liberal who is perceived to be a moderate by the general public. That's why I support Kerry
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I Prefer That Too
Kerry and Clark both fit the bill, IMO.

DTH
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
22. Trying to find what part of this is an original thought?
Perhaps you can highlite the new information for me? I could swear these issues have been regurgitated daily.
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BobbyJay Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Yeah, screw well-written artistry
GO DEAN!!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Artistry?
okey dokey ;)
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. I Repeat
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 12:41 AM by DoveTurnedHawk
Those are my honest thoughts, feel free to take 'em or leave 'em, as you choose.

No one's forcing you or anyone to participate in this thread. If you want to have a constructive discussion rather than make dismissive comments, though, please feel free, I'm happy to engage you. Again, I hear that's what we do here.

DTH
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #33
45. Your right DTH, it's what *we* do
again and again and again and again. I guess I come here hoping for an original thought/post now and again. I was disapointed that the long list of letters you posted, contained nothing new, that's all. I simply shared my thoughts as that is also *what we do.*

Night :hi: :boring:
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. Feel Free
I'm sorry you're NBD, I think that's a really short-sighted view, IMO.

DTH
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. I'm sorry your ABD I think that's a really short-sighted view
;)

outta here DTH, untill we meet again :hi:
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Unlike You, I *Will* Work and Vote for Dean If He's Our Nominee
The situations are clearly not comparable.

DTH
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Some Issues Have Been Raised, IMO None Have EVER Been Dealt With
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 12:37 AM by DoveTurnedHawk
Not satisfactorily, anyway. And as for what's new, my take on it is new (well, mostly new, anyway). Last I heard, that's what we do here, is discuss politics.

DTH
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. Your right the issues have been raised...
and some will *never* be satisfied no matter how much proof/information you provide them.

Discuss away. :)

Didn't mean to crash the party. :party:
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. If It's So Easy, Please Feel Free to Repost Your Counter-Arguments
I've already started you off above by reiterating some of the common, and IMO unpersuasive, defenses by Dean and his supporters above.

DTH
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. Nah, I'm totally bored with the subject matter.
sorry. I'm unpersuaded, unimpressed, and uninterested un-till next time. :*
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. How Convenient
See ya. We'll miss you.

:kiss:

DTH
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #43
64. How many times?
Every single point you raise has been argued to death on this forum, and you Dean opponents keep wanting "answers" that have been posted voluminously. How many "Dean supporters: Convince me Dean is the right guy" threads have you seen? I've seen plenty!

The real question is: How many times must DU's Dean detractors fall back on pretending not to hear all the arguments for Howard Dean?

How many more tiny bits of flesh can we whip off this rotten horse carcass?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
34. On point 3
I am amazed that after the Clinton miracle anyone would advocate just running deficits. What Clinton provided in the 1990's was supposedly impossible. Years of economic theory told us that we couldn't have full employment, low inflation, and low interest rates. Yet we had them. And we did that by cutting our deficit in terms of GDP and in actual terms. Running deficits will lead to either unemployment, high interest rates, or inflation. We have unemployment now and when that gets solved we will have either inflation or interest rates going up. The other problem with deficits is we were counting on paying debt now so we could borrow money to get over the SS hump. SS will not survive as we know it if we continue deficits in 2010 and beyond. That would ruin the elderly poor at the behest of the young upper middle class. Poor people got nothing from these cuts. The only poverty level people who did are single. Anyone else pays no income taxes at all. None. The lower middle class did get a pittance but the upper middle class is the only middle class group which benefited to any extent and it is immoral to starve the future poor elderly to give the upper middle class more money to spend at Starbucks.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Raising Taxes on the Wealthy and Cutting Defense Are Far Preferable
As should be clear from my statement above.

So rather than attacking the least preferable option (yet it's certainly more preferable to cutting services, IMO), how do you deal with those?

I await your reply.

DTH
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. Dean would raise the taxes on the wealthy
more than Clinton did (the Clinton who lost Congress if you recall). I am including the restoration of the Estate Tax in that BTW. Defense can't be cut. As it is our troops are on food stamps, our National Guard troops our losing their livelyhoods, and our troops are not getting basic supplies. I would love to cut defense but until that mess is cleaned up we just can't. BTW no candidate has mentioned any specific cuts amounting to anything like 15 to 25 percent and both Clark and Kucinich have advocated increased pay which means they are cutting the rest of the defense budget even more deeply. Like it or not those middle class tax cuts have to go too.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. Dean Wants to Raise Taxes on the Poor and Middle Class, He Admits It
Why can't you?

Most of the other Democratic candidates want to repeal only that portion of the Bush tax cut that favors the wealthy, so Dean isn't any more progressive than the others on that. I want ALL of the Democratic candidates to go even further, I want them to tax the wealthy EVEN MORE than they were under Clinton. Dean's not advocating for that.

As for defense, you're mistaken, you can easily increase pay but decrease the overall budget. It's called cutting weapons systems, which is exactly what Clark has proposed (particularly Air Force programs).

The middle class tax cuts ABSOLUTELY DO NOT have to go. There are many other options, and if the above is the best you can do in terms of attempting to justify Dean's foolish plan, then I'm afraid we Dems are in for an even longer road if he is our nominee.

DTH
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #51
71. First no candidate is raising taxes on anyone
we are restoring taxes. And the poor didn't get any tax cuts. No one, not a single, solitary person, who qualifies for EIC got a single, solitary cent from those cuts. (Unless they inherited a mongo estate). Poor people, that would be those who live in poverty, aka the poverty level, do not pay any income taxes at all unless they are single. After that the standard deduction is above the poverty level and stays that way until a family has something like 11 kids.

Again, I did say the lower middle class got a pitence and that upper middle class did better. But those tax cuts are actually set to expire in 2005. So that technically wouldn't be a tax increase.

Name systems Clark would eliminate which total 50 billion dollars (that is less than 15 percent of current defense spending)
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #71
91. WHAT SPIN! "Restoring" Taxes? Come On!
The reality is, taxes are at a certain level RIGHT NOW. Dean is going to raise taxes from that certain level right now, to a higher level for anyone. The more savvy, IMO, Democrats are only advocating for raising them on the wealthy.

Poor and middle-class taxpayers in this country are not stupid, you know. People will know what "restoring" taxes on the poor and middle-class means.

As for defense, 50 billion dollars is NOTHING. That's like 20 B-2 bombers.

DTH
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #91
100. If we call them tax increases we will lose no matter what
I again think Clinton should have taught us that one.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #100
101. Which Is WHY We Should NOT Increase Taxes on the Poor and Middle Class!
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 01:56 AM by DoveTurnedHawk
That is my entire point! You act as if there is only one decision, now that Dean has decreed his position! That is absolutely not the case. There are other, far superior alternatives available to us.

I would actually LOVE it if Dean "evolved" again on this issue, and recanted his position, since I DO think it makes him much less electable in the general election.

DTH
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #101
113. Mondale and Clinton both tried
the I will only increase taxes on the wealthy. Mondale lost outright though that was only 1 reason and Clinton won but lost Congress when he reneiged on the cuts for the middle class. Tax increases for the wealthy end up being portrayed as tax increases for everyone. It should be noted that Clinton actually cut more people's taxes than Reagan did but we know who is portrayed as what.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #113
129. Mondale Admitted Famously, "We Will Both Raise Your Taxes"
He tried to play the "honesty" card, and got destroyed for it.

Raising taxes only on the wealthy is a reasonable and decent argument, and it is substantively different from raising taxes on everybody. Howard Dean doesn't even have a fig leaf to cover himself on this issue, unless you count the ridiculous spin that some people are trying to roll out.

I honestly hope he changes his mind on this issue, if he's our nominee.

DTH
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #129
140. Every candidate is using the exact same spin
Not one candidate has said he would raise taxes on the wealthy when asked. Instead they discuss restoring the rates or other similar words.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. But It's Not Just the Wealthy With Dean!
Can't you see there is a very real, substantive difference between raising taxes only on the wealthy, and raising them on everyone?

DTH
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #141
157. If it is spin in case a then it is in case b to
Either we are raising taxes or we aren't. It doesn't change depending on whose taxes we are discussing. Spin is spin. I think it is valid and not spin but it is valid in both cases.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #157
161. Big Difference Between "Restoring Taxes" on All vs. Just the Rich
This really ought to be crystal clear.

You are a smart person.

So how can you not see this?

How can you not admit this?

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #51
84. "Raise taxes on the middle class and poor"
Most middle class and poor people received little to no benefit from the Bush "cuts" -- just a few dollars (under $100) in many cases.

But don't let me stop you from repeating a Republican talking point for Clark ® .
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BobbyJay Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #84
90. My "middle class family" received a tax cut.
And it helped. And will receive another one soon.

You think they will vote to have their taxes increased?


LMAO
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #90
110. You've received advances against your refund
Oh, and you received a couple of $400 payouts if you have kids. Of course, those payouts are then immediately taken away from you in increased property and other local/state taxes to pay for Bush's unfunded mandates (check how much your state income, property and vehicle tax increased this year).

The vast majority of us received no "cut" worth having -- especially if you're single or don't have kids.

And no piddling $400 check is worth bankrupting the government over.
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BobbyJay Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #110
121. Don't fucking tell me what I got.
You have no idea what I got. You have no idea whether my state taxes, tuition and car tax went up. Quit taking everything that Dean says as Gospel.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #84
93. I Received a Tax Cut, and Dismissing the TRUTH as a RW "Talking Point"
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 01:29 AM by DoveTurnedHawk
Will not work in the general election.

I mean, WTF. Do you guys really think this type of pathetic argument will sell?

DTH
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #93
111. If you received a sizable tax cut, you are in the wealthiest class
And no matter how big your "cut" was, you more than paid for it in cuts to state services and local and state tax increases designed to offset unfunded mandates. Most Americans, when offered a choice, will choose well-funded schools, hospitals, and homeland security over a piddling tiny tax cut.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #111
130. Umm...I Think You Need to Re-Read My Thread-Starting Post
Because you've circled back to exactly what I've already addressed:

"Dean's defense here, namely that the increase in taxes will be more than offset by restored benefits and services, MIGHT technically be true. It does NOT follow, however, that the ONLY path to restoring services is to raise taxes on the poor and the middle-class. There are many alternatives. You could raise the taxes on the wealthy EVEN MORE (my preferred solution), while keeping the tax cuts on the poor and middle class. You could cut spending in other areas that do not provide services, such as defense spending (Dean has vowed to maintain the defense budget at current levels, unlike other candidates who have vowed to cut it by as much as 15% or even 25%). Or you could continue running a deficit, a position traditionally embraced by Democrats when faced with the alternative of cutting services."

DTH
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
40. Beautifully stated. I think I may cry.
Fantastic piece. The fact that all of it is wrong doesn't tarnish it's beauty, in my humble opinion.

Nice job.

*sniff*


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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
41. Paul Krugman wants you to can it
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 12:45 AM by mouse7
"...Let me suggest a couple of ground rules. First, while it's O.K. for a candidate to say he's more electable than his rival, someone who really cares about ousting Mr. Bush shouldn't pre-emptively surrender the cause by claiming that his rival has no chance...."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/02/opinion/02KRUG.html?ex=1073624400&en=ad95bae4b759c899&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
55. I Never Once Said Dean Has "No" Chance
Anything is possible, I've said that a million times. Dean could possibly win, I even say as much above. I'm quite clearly saying that Dean is less electable than certain of his rivals.

DTH
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MIMStigator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #41
59. Paul Krugman said "it would be nice if Mr. Dean were a decorated war hero"
and he said "there's nothing in the polling data suggesting that Mr. Dean is less electable than his Democratic rivals, with the possible exception of General Clark"

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/02/opinion/02KRUG.html?ex=1073624400&en=ad95bae4b759c899&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. Nice Quote! What Do You Say To That, Dean Supporters?
Are you still liking Krugman so much?

DTH
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MIMStigator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. waah waah POOP! POOP!
:hi:
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #63
75. Yes, It's a great Krugman piece
Krugman clearly has respect for Clark and Dean. Krugman says Clark may be more electable than Dean, however he also says...

"...Mr. Dean's rivals may well believe that he will lose the election if he is nominated. But it's inexcusable when they try to turn that belief into a self-fulfilling prophecy...."

So follow the advice of the Krugman piece and stick to issues discussions and cut out the slash and burn crap.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #75
87. Umm, This *Is* an Issues Discussion
It's also an electability discussion, which is exactly the type of discussion you said was fair game earlier.

DTH
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #87
96. NO NO NO... DON'T go there!
"...Mr. Dean's rivals may well believe that he will lose the election if he is nominated. But it's inexcusable when they try to turn that belief into a self-fulfilling prophecy...."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/02/opinion/02KRUG.html?ex=1073624400&en=ad95bae4b759c899&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #63
83. I say Krugman's a helluva writer
And yeah, things probably would be easier on Howard Dean if he were a "decorated war hero". But then again, maybe not....Clark is running way behind him.

shrug.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
56. Well that's it then! Pack up camp and everybody give up
the only guy with any kind of a shot to beat Beat Bush doesn't impress ya.

:shrug:

Mmmmmmkay.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. Sorry Walt, "Proof by Blatant Assertion" Doesn't Fly With Me
I've said exactly why I think Dean's chances are poor. Do you want to try actually addressing the issues now, instead of posting one-liners?

DTH
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #61
89. It's been hashed and rehashed all over GD2004
:shrug:

Mmmmmkay
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
62. Dean is his own worst enemy
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 01:02 AM by BeyondGeography
I started out for the guy, because he was the only candidate who seemed as pissed at Bush as I was. I also agreed with his position on the war.

But he lost me fairly early on with one statement that very few people probably remember: "America will not always have the strongest military in the world." Now you might find that to be fairly harmless (you couldn't argue with his main point: we need to exercise soft power, not just hard power), but I was appalled. I mean, Americans live in fear of losing their most powerful status. Remember the insanity of the Cold War, Howard? Why would an anti-war "liberal" from Vermont, with no history of military service give the post 9/11 War on Terra Republicans a chance to run the following ad: "Dean: We won't have the most powerful military."

If you extend your timeframe out far enough, like 200-500 years, Howard could be right. But why would any DEMOCRAT (you know, the wimp party) who wants to be POTUS next year, say such a thing?

But that's how it is with Howard: He gives the opponents all the ammunition they need. And his supporters can point to the whole quote and say: "But you're just taking the whore media spin for granted, here's what he really said"...Sorry, folks. it doesn't work that way. He does this over and over again. "Osama: Innocent until proven guilty." Yep, here come the litigious Dems. It's going to be Free Mumia and Osama, with Howard Dean leading the way.

I'm tired of losing to the Pubs, and Howard Dean is a losing nominee.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #62
112. Great Point
I heard that statement & knew I could never suuport Dean.

First of all, it was so dumb to say that, even if he believed it.

Second, what are Dems perceived to be weakest in? National security, military affairs, etc. This just reinforced that preception.

I will bet you that will be in 1 of the 1st Repug ads.

Dean is a loose cannon.
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #62
152. "America will not always have the strongest military in the world."
Bingo. Straight into their hands. I can hear it already: Democrats are soft on national defense.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
69. I'm going to let Krugman respond to most of this attack piece
Response to #1 from Krugman

"...It's true that if Mr. Dean gets the nomination, the Republicans will attack him as a wild-eyed liberal who is weak on national security. But they would do the same to any Democrat — even Joseph Lieberman. Facts, or the lack thereof, will prove no obstacle: remember the successful attacks on the patriotism of Max Cleland, who lost three limbs in Vietnam, or the Saddam-Daschle ads...."

Response to #2

Krugman doesn't specifically address this issue in his piece. Therefore I will fall back on history. Clinton, Carter, FDR, and Woodrow Wilson were also governors with no foreign policy experience when they entered the White House.

I seem to remember something about winning the World Wars under FDR and Wilson. Carter now has a Nobel Peace Prize. Clinton's did pretty well, and is currently working on his Nobel Peace Prize in Kashmir.

Response to #3

Again no exact Krugman response... historical response instead

The tax rates during the Clinton Presidency were very popular. Dean isn't raising taxes. He's returning them back to the levels they were under Clinton when we had record surpluses and huge job growth.

Response #4 from Krugman

"...Mr. Dean's character will also come under attack. But this, too, will happen to any Democrat. If we've learned anything in this past decade, it's that the right-wing scandal machine will find a way to smear anyone, and that a lot of the media will play along. A year ago, when John Kerry was the presumptive front-runner, he came under assault — I am not making this up — over the supposed price of his haircuts. Sure enough, a CNN host solemnly declared him in "denial mode...."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/02/opinion/02KRUG.html?ex=1073624400&en=ad95bae4b759c899&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
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MIMStigator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. "Dean not less electable than rivals with the possible exception of...
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 01:09 AM by MIMStigator
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. To quote Krugman n/t
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #69
81. Thanks for Trying to Respond, Here Are My Rebuttals
1) Are you able to admit that certain Democratic candidates, objectively speaking, have more foreign policy experience than others?

If yes, then you should be able to understand that Republican attacks on this issue will be more or less successful, relatively speaking, based on such criteria. It will be difficult for Republicans to paint war heroes such as Kerry or Clark as unpatriotic. It will be difficult for Republicans to paint Senate FP members and Generals such as Kerry or Clark as weak on foreign policy.

If no, then it's probably not really worthwhile for us to continue this discussion, because if you can't admit that basic fact, then we have no real common frame of reference.

2) You should study history a little more carefully if you're going to try to cite it like this. Aside from the obviously declining relevance to modern elections the further you go back in history, FDR and Wilson were elected prior to the time when our country was at war. Clinton and Carter did not preside over wars at all.

3) Dean is proposing to raise taxes from their current levels. If you cannot admit this, then again, there's not much for us to talk about. If you cannot admit this, I've pretty much already won the argument anyway, IMO, because it becomes obvious to all objective observers that your partisanship has outweighed your objectivity.

4) Again, the character and integrity issues are very subjective, so I will certainly concede that reasonable people can disagree here. But please try to explain the two unambiguous Dean lies, no one has been able to so far.

DTH
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #81
95. Reply to attack piece...
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 01:33 AM by mouse7
1)No.... Rove will paint Wes Clark as being to the left of Lenin, just like they do with Dean and just like they did WITH CONFIRMED DRAFT-DODGER SAXBY CHANDLESS vs. heroic Cleland.

Good God man, don't you get it. Look up the Chandless v Cleland race again.

2) Ahh historic examples don't matter now, huh? Wilson and FDR HAD NO foreign policy experience when elected. They won World Wars. Live with it. They depended on competant professionals in their respective field to conduct foreign policy and defense. Clinton and Carter also did fine with no foreign policy experience. The fact there were no wars under Clinton and Carter PROVES they did well. Wars are the very definition of diplomatic failure.

3)Dean is proposing a return to Clinton level tax levels from when the economy worked, jobs were plentiful, and we weren't in debt to our ass. Keeping Bush tax levels means a candidate cannot use the Clinton-era economy as an argument for their election, because they are a vital component of the Clinton-era economy. Dean says the Clinton-era economy worked, let's go back to it. I can't wait to hear how you think a GENERAL can come up with a better economic solution than what was achieved under Clinton.

4)Krugman makes it clear THERE IS NO ROOM FOR DISAGREEMENT on this. Enough of the BS personal attacks.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. You Didn't Answer My Points
1) Again...CAN YOU ADMIT that some candidates are better on foreign policy than others? CAN YOU ADMIT that it is better, electability-wise, to be a war hero than someone who avoided service in Vietnam?

2) Umm...to reiterate, how can you possibly compare elections during peacetime to elections during wartime? Are you truly unable to see the difference here?

3) See above regarding the supposed "restoring" of the old taxes. This is getting kind of ridiculous, IMO.

4) 4)Krugman makes it clear THERE IS NO ROOM FOR DISAGREEMENT on this. Enough of the BS personal attacks.

This is the most incredible statement I've seen here in a long time. No room for disagreement? This isn't Russia (or the Soviet Union, as some seem to think), you know. I am not a slave to Krugman (who, incidentally, appears to agree with me more than you).

And I'm sorry you seem to feel this is a personal attack. It's not, and I think most fair-minded people will realize that.

DTH
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #97
102. I certainly did answer... you just didn't like responses
1) Yes some people would be better on foreign policy than others. Career diplomats. Last time I checked, GENERALS aren't career diplomats. If you were supporting Warren Christopher for President, I'd grant the point. Generals couldn't be more clueless on diplomacy.

Dean did not avoid service in Vietnam. Dean was voluntarily taking an entrance physical to enter OCS and active duty when he too the physical he ended up not passing. Read the WHOLE NYTimes article. It's all there.

http://college3.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2003/11/22/1126070.xml

Also Federal law requires anyone entering the service bring all potentially relevant medical record to a military physical. I had to bring 5 inches think files to my entrance physical for my knees and allegies.

2)Neither Dean nor Clark would be commanding units in Baghdad. So actual military command experience isn't terribly useful when commanding the civilian government in wartime. Letting the professionals handle commanding their appropriate tasks in a civilian government is appropriate. Dean has experience in civilian exacutive management. Clark has none. Clark has the same amount of foreign policy experience as Dean.

And... FDR WILSON CLINTON CARTER

3)So General Clark has a better economic solution than that proven in the Clinton years? You're the one spinning and dodging. Please tell me this grand economic strategy that Gen. Clark has developed and the experience he has in developing entire new economic strategies from square one.

4)Krugman makes it clear THERE IS NO ROOM FOR DISAGREEMENT on this. Enough of the BS personal attacks.

Let me quite from your #4...
"Dean is a flip-flopping, arrogant, egotistical, stretches-the-truth-to-the-breaking-point Democrat just like his new soul mate, Al Gore."

Yes, that's a personal attack. There's no roon in the party for it. You want to deliver to a potential nominee, find another party to do it in.

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. Perception Is Everything, in Elections
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 02:34 AM by DoveTurnedHawk
First, although I know you're not happy with me right now, I commend you for actually trying to discuss these issues. They're not going away any time soon, I'm afraid.

1) Yes some people would be better on foreign policy than others. Career diplomats. Last time I checked, GENERALS aren't career diplomats.

Clark can point to his role in holding together a 19-nation coalition during wartime, his role in negotiating the Bosnia peace accords, his role in ending the Kosovo conflict without a single American life lost, and many other events. Those are big, huge, major foreign policy experiences, and they're all more than Howard Dean can muster, or even come close to mustering. Dean has already admitted his weakness in this area. I'm glad you appear to be conceding that point here.

I actually agree with you that most generals (although Clark is not "most generals" certainly) aren't going to be as good on foreign policy issues as State department officials. That said, the American public will perceive a general to be far superior in matters of foreign policy than a governor of a small state whose only foreign border is Canada.

Dean did not avoid service in Vietnam.

He absolutely did, and he even admitted that he wanted to avoid it. I don't blame him! And I'm not saying he did anything wrong in bringing his X-rays for his obscure, non-debilitating medical condition that his personal doctor diagnosed into the physical with him.

That said, it's obvious that the simple fact of the matter is that Dean will not be able to attack George Bush on the issue of him going AWOL or avoiding service in Vietnam (Bush's National Guard form clearly indicates he did NOT volunteer for service overseas), since Dean would be a hypocrite for doing so. That's one HUGE Bush liability off-the-table for Howard Dean.

It's also obvious that the American public will perceive a man who volunteered to serve in Vietnam, was wounded and decorated for his service there, and made his career in the armed forces as more patriotic than someone who avoided service.

2)Neither Dean nor Clark would be commanding units in Baghdad. So actual military command experience isn't terribly useful when commanding the civilian government in wartime. Letting the professionals handle commanding their appropriate tasks in a civilian government is appropriate. Dean has experience in civilian exacutive management. Clark has none. Clark has the same amount of foreign policy experience as Dean.

And... FDR WILSON CLINTON CARTER


I'm not sure why you continue to raise the completely irrelevant Presidents as an issue, since they were all elected during peacetime.

We are widely perceived to be at war right now, against a dire and brutal enemy who desires our death and destruction. Who do you think the American public will believe is more likely to protect them successfully? A governor with zero foreign policy experience? Or a general who faced down a dictator and brought his regime down?

This isn't about commanding units in the field. This is about leadership, and perception, and real experience.

3)So General Clark has a better economic solution than that proven in the Clinton years? You're the one spinning and dodging. Please tell me this grand economic strategy that Gen. Clark has developed and the experience he has in developing entire new economic strategies from square one.

It's all available on Clark's webpage.

More importantly, however, Clark is not advocating for an increase in taxes on the poor or middle class. Frankly, Clinton wouldn't advocate that either, not in an election year! The reality is, Bush DID force through his tax cuts. They are a reality, and we have to deal with them.

Raising taxes on the poor and middle class is not going to win us any votes. We need to adopt other alternatives, such as cutting the defense budget instead, or raising taxes on the wealthy even more, or run a deficit for a few years longer than some deficit hawks might prefer. Any of these are better than the notion of telling NASCAR dads and soccer moms that we're going to raise their taxes.

Let me quite from your #4...
"Dean is a flip-flopping, arrogant, egotistical, stretches-the-truth-to-the-breaking-point Democrat just like his new soul mate, Al Gore."


Umm...do you understand the basic proposition that all of the things I said were anticipations of what the Republicans are going to say?

Yes, that's a personal attack. There's no roon in the party for it. You want to deliver to a potential nominee, find another party to do it in.

I like my party just fine, thanks very much, and I won't have anyone, especially a partisan who just appears to be mad at me for pointing out certain basic and apparently irrefutable (based on the efforts in this thread, anyway) truths, chase me away.

Bush is going to hit these themes. The defenses I've seen here are weak, and in fact were already anticipated for the most part in my original post. These defenses don't become any more persuasive just because they are spoken with lots of passion.

DTH
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #104
115. Too bad yours are wrong.
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 03:27 AM by mouse7
1)"Clark can point to his role in holding together a 19-nation coalition during wartime"

Clark is claiming credit for NATO now? NATO was around for a half-century before Clark got there, and will be there long after we all croak.

"his role in negotiating the Bosnia peace accords"

Clark's role was providing security for the areas the negotiations were taking place.

Clark did command NATO forces in Kosovo.

Dean however did on a daily basis have to deal with an abundance of agreements with Canada. From agriculture, to business, to energy, Dean had to get adjusted to working in an international environment. Dean admits he's weak on foreign policy. Is that one of Dean's lies too? No... not that one, okay. Well Dean's weak and Clark needs to admit that he's weak, too.

2)Dean did not avoid service in Vietnam. I gave you the chance to read the NYTimes article before I made you look bad, but you refused to read it. That's you're fault. not mine...



"...In early 1970, more than a year before Dr. Dean's student deferment was due to lapse, he decided to see where he stood.

If approved for service, he said, he thought he might try Officer Candidate School, as a Yale friend had done. He said he had never considered the National Guard.

So, he came to his physical armed with X-rays and a letter from his orthopedist...."

"...A few weeks later, a letter arrived informing him that his draft classification had been changed from 2-S, the student deferment, to 1-Y...."

http://college3.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2003/11/22/1126070.xml

The article clear says Dean was voluntarily there to take his physical more than a year before his student deferment expired, and that Dean had selected Officer candidte School as his career option. Draftees get no career option. The only way a person got to choose any career programs was if they entered active duty voluntarily. Was Dean happy about the prospects of a serving in the military, no, he wasn't. However, he clearly had decided at that point the better option was to enter at that time and go to officer's candidate school rather than wait to get drafted and have no choice what he did while in.

Sorry, I've already had this argument here last week. It's on a long thread. It's agreed. Dean was attempting to enter active duty voluntarily when he failed his physical. If he had known for sure his medical condition would keep him out of the service, Dean never would have considered Officers Candidate School. He went that day thinking he was likely to end up on active duty in OCS.

3) Clark's economic package is on his webpage. Great. What the hell do Generals know about economics? Dean knows the Clinton economy worked. We all know the Dumbya economy doesn't work. Most prefer candidates who don't try to fix what wasn't broken. Clark is going to have to argue his ideas are better than Clinton's and Dumbya's. People will percieve a general making wholesale economic policy changes. That's a real bad perception problem.

4) No, that wasn't neo-con attacks. I do believe you said...
"I have a real problem with certain elements of Dean's personality and character."

That's a personal attack. I want those out of the discussion. So does Krugman. Stop doing the work of the neo-cons.

Lies? I guarantee Clark was NEVER given the FORMAL invitation to be Dean's VP. Clark knows he was never given a formal invite when the news first broke, too. He had lots of ways to say he was not interested in being Dean's Veep than making up a lie like that. If you are not given the FORMAL invitation, you haven't been offered. Here's an example of Clark's inexperience. Feelers and low-level discussions happen all the time. Clark's political inexperience with such thing made a mess on the front page for days for both campaigns.


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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #115
131. You Are Desperately Trying to Defend Your Candidate
I'm sorry it's so hard to do, it must be frustrating indeed, especially when the defenses are so counter-intuitive.

Clark is claiming credit for NATO now? NATO was around for a half-century before Clark got there, and will be there long after we all croak.

Clark is claiming credit for being the head of NATO during a time of war. He really DID hold things together. He received raftloads of medals and awards, from the US and NATO countries. I think most fair-minded people who are not desperately trying to deflect attention from their own candidate will acknowledge his experience here.

Clark's role was providing security for the areas the negotiations were taking place.

Blatantly untrue, just read excerpts from Richard Holbrooke's book on this subject.

Dean however did on a daily basis have to deal with an abundance of agreements with Canada. From agriculture, to business, to energy, Dean had to get adjusted to working in an international environment. Dean admits he's weak on foreign policy.

Exactly, he does admit it. So I'm not sure why you're trying to defend him using deals with Canada, the "argument" looks kind of ridiculous, IMO.

2)Dean did not avoid service in Vietnam. I gave you the chance to read the NYTimes article before I made you look bad, but you refused to read it. That's you're fault. not mine...

I read the article. He absolutely avoided service, and has admitted as much. Again, I'm not holding that against him, except to the extent that I acknowledge how it will affect his ability to attack Bush and his electability with certain segments of the population, as Dean's mother has even admitted.

3) Clark's economic package is on his webpage. Great. What the hell do Generals know about economics?

Most generals? Nothing at all, probably. But Clark reached four stars, so he oversaw large forces and budgets, larger than Vermont's, I believe. Additionally, Clark has a masters in Economics and taught that subject as well. I think Clark knows more about Economics than Dean, probably.

I do believe you said...
"I have a real problem with certain elements of Dean's personality and character."

That's a personal attack. I want those out of the discussion. So does Krugman. Stop doing the work of the neo-cons.


That is me giving my honest opinion. I'm not going to censor myself from having an honest discussion just because you and Paul Krugman (who again appears to agree with me more than you, not only when he says discussions about electability are fair game, but also when he concedes that Clark is probably more electable than Dean...in those cases, I'm glad you appear to place such stock in his opinion) say so.

Lies? I guarantee Clark was NEVER given the FORMAL invitation to be Dean's VP.

How? Were you there? I wasn't aware Howard Dean was posting on this message board under the screen name mouse7!

Here's an example of Clark's inexperience. Feelers and low-level discussions happen all the time. Clark's political inexperience with such thing made a mess on the front page for days for both campaigns.

No, although Clark didn't raise this issue (Steph did), I think Clark nevertheless wanted to take the opportunity to quash the VP talk, and so it was a deliberate, tactical move. I don't think it went nearly as badly as you appear to, but obviously YMMV.

Again, I'm sorry you appear so frustrated by this discussion. I'm actually enjoying it very much.

DTH
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #131
133. You've proven you can't discuss
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 11:20 AM by mouse7
To start with, I've said over and over that I'm a Wellstone ABB, however you keep on pushing this "my candidate" crud. My candidate died last year. I have no dog in this. However, that's inconvienent for you so you go so far as to post claims about ME in the discussions that aren't true.

I do believe you said...
"I have a real problem with certain elements of Dean's personality and character."

You're not willing top stop making personal attacks.

That makes anything else a non-starter.

I'm not willing to have discussions with those that are making personal attacks that do nothing but write ads for the neo-cons in October and November.

I'm sure you'll declare victory or something like that. Whatever. I don't give a crap. I tried to get you to start having reasonable discussions within reasonable guidelines and you refused.

Your loss.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. I Certainly Will Declare Victory, Thanks
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 11:28 AM by DoveTurnedHawk
It should be clear to anyone who reads our subthread. But I'm sorry you feel the need to run screaming from this thread just because I'm not kowtowing to your demands about what we can and cannot talk about. I'm not even the one making a big issue over it in this subthread, we haven't really even been getting into the substantive reasons for why I have a problem with Dean's personality and integrity, you're just playing semantic word games with the term "personal attack" leveraging off of my original post, which long ago passed the edit period, and citing Krugman as if he's some kind of god, even though he agrees more with me than you.

To start with, I've said over and over that I'm a Wellstone ABB, however you keep on pushing this "my candidate" crud.

By the way, I haven't seen that once, certainly not here. Do you really think I read everything you write?

I have news for you: I don't.

DTH
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #95
120. An addendum to #3
I would like to point out that Clark supports supply-side economics which is proven failure for the past oh, 20 years under Reagan, Bush and Chimpy administration.

Clinton's economic plan was the only one that got the deficit under control and was in the process of paying down via our surplus.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #81
98. Oh come off it
Wes Clark saying 'Bush has a great team' makes Clark about as Republican as you can get. If Clark thinks Bush is so damn great, what's he doing in the Democratic Party?

And I haven't seen one of those brochures IN CONTEXT--Kucinich's campaign is sending them all over the country cropped. Why? Why don't they show the whole brochure? Is there something in there they don't want to show?

Unambiguous Dean lies. OK, then Clark is unambiguously ambiguous in his ambiguity. The guy has already said he would have voted for the war OH WAIT...I DIDN'T MEAN IT...HONEST...COME BACK...:silly:
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
103. As a Kucinich supporter.
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 02:36 AM by cyclezealot
Dean just does not come across as convincing. My crucial issues he claims to be a convert. But his past belies that fact. On my crucial issues, I demand purity to gain my enthusiatic support. Those being health care and Nafta.
But, if Dean is sincerely a convert, I just hope that he really is..Come November, I will just have to believe he is honest.
But that being said... Dean will take on Bush and make him look like the liar he is... Dean will not pulverize Bush as effectively as Kucinich can; but I have faith Dean can give Bush a hell of a night at the debates. And that seals the elections..As long as Diabolt doesn't steal it..
I do suggest Dean need watch and control his anger and not attack too aggressively as to be nasty, out of control, and not constructive. The public expects problem solvers, not just hot political rhetoric. Its ok for mobilazing our base, but elections are meant to change a nations direction and try to solve our problems..
As a Kucinich supporter, what problems Kucinich might have as a campaigner; other than those imposed by the media's stranglehold-our DK is too constructive, a real moralist/spirtual soul, and his values will not allow him to be vicious. I have talked to him..I just know that...He does not want to be President, if he has to violate his values and aspirations for a better country and world.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #103
116. But you "conveniently"don't demand "purity" on choice?
How "convenient."
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
105. A short reply.
1) The truth is that Dean governed Vermont very moderately, and this truth will insulate him from the Repuke charges that he is a radical liberal. Note that these charges will be made against any Dem candidate, and (other than Lieberman) Dean is in the best position to defend against them because of his long, documented record of fiscal responsibility.


2) It's true that Dean has no foreign policy experience, but that goes for any Governor. Meanwhile, Clark has no experience governering. Why am I supposed to be extremely concerned about the former, but blithely trusting about the latter?

Finally, our supposed "foreign policy experts" rushed us into the Iraqi quagmire based on lies.


3) Polls consistently show that over 60% of Americans are willing to give up their pittance of a tax break in exchange for universal healthcare.


4) If Dean's personality is such a hindrance, why is he winning?

5) Dean didn't lie about Kucinich. Dean was simply grouped Kucinich outside of the major candidates. It's just another case of Dean telling the truth -- perhaps a little too bluntly, depending on how you like your truth told.

Remember the stink that everybody raised when Dean said Graham was not a major candidate? And how long did it take until Dean was proven was proven 100% right on that? How is this "how dare he" flap any different?
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #105
107. I again repeat as Studs Terkel says.
If DK can't be a major contender, the problem is Not DK, but the country.that I believe. I dispute that he can't be a major contender. His latest fundraising shows he has raised probably $ 9 million.
He should soon have $3 Million in the bank..Since the Media deems him a political outcast, that ain't too bad.
In this day of personality cult politics where issues are unimportant...I suspect Winston Churchill, if he were an American,would pale under the money and glitz of an Arnold,the Terminator Schwarznegger...
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #107
124. Studs speaks the truth. DK has the best platform. And the problem is with
America, not DK.

However, DK will be lucky to amass 100 delegates in the 2004 primaries. And I'm being kind in allowing that possibility.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
106. AS I GO TO BED, I LEAVE YOU WITH A PARTING THOUGHT
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 02:45 AM by DoveTurnedHawk
After 105 posts, no one (well, no one that I've been able to see, anyway) has been able to dispute the most basic propositions I forward above, specifically:

1) Dean is a moderate who is perceived as a liberal;

2) Dean has zero foreign policy experience;

3) Dean advocates for an increase in current levels of taxation on the poor and middle-class; and

4) Dean and his campaign have spread lies about Clark and Kucinich, even after being challenged on them, just so Dean could stay on message.

Whether these propositions are positive or negative factors with respect to Dean's quality as a potential nominee, I leave as an exercise for the reader. (I mean, you obviously know my position on this already.) ;-)

DTH
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #106
122. destroying your entire "propositions"
You ignore and dismiss all criticisms of Clark and place people you disagree with on ignore.
You are not an objective source.
In fact, smugly patting yourself on the back for your own perception of objectivity is exactly the reason why Kerry's camp has failed miserably.
Expect the same results....
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
114. Same old stuff... so much hate on the Clark side.


Hate for liberal, and hate for new englanders, hate for anti-war folks, hate for Al Gore... it seems Clark supporters think he should reach out to swing voters by insulting and attacking the democratic base of liberals, and folks who are angry at bush, folks who were against the war, folks in the north, and the democrat who got more votes than any democrat in history.

Democrats don't win elections like that... republicans do.

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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
123. the shrinking left? sounds like wishful thinking on your part
many of you clark supporters are waay to the right of the candidate you support if his rhetoric is to be believed. Apparently you assume the best strategy is to appeal to the right while vocally marginalizing those of us on the left just like your soulmates at the DLC. Good Luck.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. I don't think the DLC is even this far right
If these guys think the left is shrinking they are delusional and have no understanding of polical dynamics.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #125
137. I'm Sorry, WHO Has No Understanding of Political Dynamics Again?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A49232-2004Jan2?language=printer

Almost half of voters, 45 percent, in a poll conducted for The Associated Press in mid-December by Ipsos-Public Affairs said they definitely would vote for President Bush, while not quite a third, 31 percent, said they definitely would vote against him. About a fifth, 21 percent, said they would consider voting for someone else.

In the most recent poll, the swing voters were more likely to be younger adults (between) ages 18 and 39, those without college educations and political independents.

In the coming year, the voters, especially swing voters, are certain to be influenced by the two big issues of the last year - how the economy is going and how the situation in Iraq is going.

Bush had more than a 3-to-1 advantage over Democratic front-runner Howard Dean on whom the public trusts more to handle national security, according to a recent ABC-Washington Post poll. "As long as the president has a stature gap on fighting terrorism," Kohut said, "he has a trump card."


Note: Claiming the WP is a right-wing rag, or calling the poll mere propaganda just because it disputes your worldview, is not a very persuasive response.

DTH
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
126. You talk about pros and cons
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 09:12 AM by Hep
You give pros one sentence and cons a whole (long) post. And then you say you're not interested in tearing down democrats.

It isn't that I have a problem with your reservations or your opinions, as I know full well that you are entitled to them. But if you think it's critical for people to have all the facts, can you say you offered them with single word listings of two pros and several PARAGRAPHS of cons?

I mean, as far as I can see, your post just served to overjoy the Dean opponents, who look for every reason to snipe bitterly at Dean and his supporters, and inflame Dean supporters, some of which take great joy in responding with Hot Anger (tm). Is anyone more educated?

I'm so tired of these threads.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #126
132. I'm Sorry You Feel That Way, Hep
You give pros one sentence and cons a whole (long) post. And then you say you're not interested in tearing down democrats.

I'm not. I'm interested in having an open and honest discussion about Howard Dean's cons. That should be obvious from my thread title.

Anyone here is welcome to start a thread about his pros. I think they're pretty much undisputed, however, they're certainly not disputed by me, so I'm not sure what the point would be, but again, feel free.

It isn't that I have a problem with your reservations or your opinions, as I know full well that you are entitled to them. But if you think it's critical for people to have all the facts, can you say you offered them with single word listings of two pros and several PARAGRAPHS of cons?

See above. His pros are well-established. My strong opinion is that they do not outweigh his cons, but obviously YMMV.

I mean, as far as I can see, your post just served to overjoy the Dean opponents, who look for every reason to snipe bitterly at Dean and his supporters, and inflame Dean supporters, some of which take great joy in responding with Hot Anger (tm). Is anyone more educated?

I think we've had a good discussion, and I have enjoyed it very much. I know quite a few people have also enjoyed it, and have found it useful, and I'm not just talking about people who already hate Dean.

I'm so tired of these threads.

I'm sorry you feel that way, because I value your opinion. I honestly feel this discussion is important, and will continue to be important through the primaries. If nothing else, Dean and his supporters will need to be ready to defend against the exact Republican attack points I describe above, if he's out nominee.

DTH
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #132
135. This is the thing
I'm interested in having an open and honest discussion about Howard Dean's cons. That should be obvious from my thread title.

Yes, but why focuson cons? When is it ever a good idea to FOCUS on cons?

His pros are not well established if you read this board.

I think we've had a good discussion, and I have enjoyed it very much. I know quite a few people have also enjoyed it, and have found it useful, and I'm not just talking about people who already hate Dean.

Good discussion? Maybe 5%. People who find it fun are people who go to races to see car crashes and hockey games to see fights. This is not one side of human nature that I consider good.

I'm ready to defend Dean, but honestly, I never expected to have to defend against the kinds of attacks I've seen here. I mean, from Democrats. There has been some meaningful criticism and fair discussions, but not enough to make the BS worth it.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #135
138. It Is Our Duty as Voters to Do Our Due Diligence
Edited on Fri Jan-02-04 12:36 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
Due diligence entails not only looking at the pros, but the cons. We need to view our candidates, warts and all, shortcomings and all, so we can evaluate properly who will be our best standard-bearer come the fall.

And with all due respect, I think this IS meaningful criticism. I have said exactly why I have issues with Dean, and explained my reasoning.

Finally, I really do think Dean's pros are quite clear, at least to any reasonable observer. I'm not talking about the people who think Dean is the anti-Christ, I'm talking about most fair-minded folks on DU, who IMO know what Dean brings to the table. But obviously, YMMV.

DTH
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #138
142. Fair enough
thanks for taking the time to rationally discuss your views.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #142
162. Any Time, Thank You for Having a Civil, Intelligent Discussion With Me
I really appreciate it.

:thumbsup:

DTH
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
127. thanks for taking the time to put this together
you've made a great argument here, one I will certainly use parts of out here in the "real" world.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
148. I am incredibly impressed by your well thought-out post
and I agree 100%. Will the REAL Howard Dean please stand up?
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
149. DTH, you reign supreme.
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mbali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
150. Beautifully written,well-thought-out, outstanding post.
Thank you SO much for articulating what many, many people think.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
153. So you're afraid of what Rove will say.
I get it.
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
154. I'll leave it...
1) Image - this what you're essentially getting at. One reason for an early end to the primary is to allow a candidate time to adjust their position for the GE. Any candidate will be subjected to being defined by the opposition. For example, framing an image like the unstable "general" which might be used on Clark would be stereotypical and could be easy to impress upon the psyche of many. In order to counter smears, the candidate with the strongest organization and most resources to frame their candidate in the media would have the best chance for defense. Money and organization is a big advantage Dean has over the other candidates.

2) Foreign policy - Bush had the same weakness but countered this by announcing his cabinet beforehand with people like Colin Powell. Even 4 stars doesn't outrank a commander-in chief so it's not an issue you'll win based on resume but at best you can neutralize it. GOP is stronger because of the perception that they spend more on the military whereas Democrats shift the money to domestic policies. So the majority of military officers will vote Republican as it's perceived to be in their best interest but we might score points in the general from those that would prefer we spend $87 billion here in America as to over there. It's like two football teams with one being strong on offense and the other being stronger on defense. The offensive team is not going to beat the other team by playing into their strength. This is why the presumption of some that we can outmuscle Bush with a military person is playing their game and is a sure plan for defeat, imo. Elections are hardly ever decided on the basis of foreign policy. Placing your eggs in this basket would lead to defeat, imo.

3) Taxes - This is familiar ground for governors and where I think Dean will shine against this credit card administration. You can't win by saying I'll give more tax cuts than the other guy but you might convince voters that you can stop the flood of red ink and balance the budget before the bill with interest comes due on the backs their children and grandchildren. If people can be educated about the Bush tax, I think they'll prefer the fiscal conservative. When it comes to economics, Bush versus Dean, the advantage should go to Dean.

4) Character assassination - Yes, mileage may vary greatly since most of the other candidates have made reference to Clark's republicanism. That's politics and who's to say that if Rove had called Clark 25 days earlier to join the gop he couldn't have been convinced. While he might not have been a card carrying member the video of him praising Bush implies that he was at that time sleeping with them. Vicious attack? Clark's not running for student council but to head the Democratic Party's ticket. It's known that as a General a staffer was assigned full time for damage control because of Clark's speaking gaffes. Now he's packaged, programmed and presented to where I'm not sure how much of the real Clark is being shown. Is that a lie or is it just politics?

The concern for Kucinich is touching especially considering that evidently Clark doesn't think Dennis is a major candidate:

"It's now clear that I'm one of only two candidates in a position to win the nomination. And I'm the only candidate positioned to actually win the election."

-- Wesley Clark, quoted by the AP.

Clark would be a very weak nominee, imo.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #154
163. Umm...Huh?
1) Image - this what you're essentially getting at. One reason for an early end to the primary is to allow a candidate time to adjust their position for the GE. Any candidate will be subjected to being defined by the opposition.

Sure, but some are much more susceptible to it than others. Dean is in jeopardy because his perception is exactly what the American public has been trained to expect. It fits readily into a pre-existing stereotype, which, as any woman or person of color can tell you very well, can be exceedingly difficult to break out of, especially when dealing with the ignorant or apathetic.

You also do not dispute that Dean is a moderate, which is a good thing, since it's not really disputable, IMO. I don't want a moderate. I want a liberal who just looks like a moderate.

As an aside, Dean is also from Vermont, a safe Dem state. Some of our other Presidential candidates are from home states they can deliver, which also happen to be borderline or Republican.

2) Foreign policy - Bush had the same weakness but countered this by announcing his cabinet beforehand with people like Colin Powell.

Again, as I said in my original post...WE LIVE IN A POST-9/11 WORLD. The "I have no foreign policy but I'll assemble a great team" bit WILL NOT WORK.

Elections are hardly ever decided on the basis of foreign policy.

They are when we're at war.

3) Taxes - This is familiar ground for governors and where I think Dean will shine against this credit card administration. You can't win by saying I'll give more tax cuts than the other guy but you might convince voters that you can stop the flood of red ink and balance the budget before the bill with interest comes due on the backs their children and grandchildren. If people can be educated about the Bush tax, I think they'll prefer the fiscal conservative. When it comes to economics, Bush versus Dean, the advantage should go to Dean.

This is the area where I'm starting to feel Dean supporters really, really have an especial blind spot.

No one wants to have their taxes raised. Again, you can explain it and spin it and attempt to justify it all to the best of your ability, but the bottom line is middle-class America would much rather have their cake and eat it too. They want their services restored without increasing their own taxes. And as I say above, there are ways you can do this.

Admitting you'll raise taxes on the middle-class is a sure-fire way to lose the election in a landslide.

4) Character assassination - Yes, mileage may vary greatly since most of the other candidates have made reference to Clark's republicanism. That's politics and who's to say that if Rove had called Clark 25 days earlier to join the gop he couldn't have been convinced. While he might not have been a card carrying member the video of him praising Bush implies that he was at that time sleeping with them.

A lie is a lie.

I am amazed to see such cynical responses of, "It's just politics, so a candidate who lies just to stay on message is OK in my book!"

Vicious attack? Clark's not running for student council but to head the Democratic Party's ticket.

So I'm sure that you'll have no complaints about all of the attacks on Howard Dean, then?

Clark would be a very weak nominee, imo.

:shrug:

You're obviously entitled to your opinion.

DTH
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
155. Enjoyed Your Post, DTH.
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 07:16 PM by David Zephyr
I know that you know I disagree with some of what you have written, but your candidate will prove me right in making the contest into the 2 man race I said it would be all along.

It's time for the rest of the candidates, except Kucinich, to bow out completely and hopefully they will --- allowing America's Democrats to narrow their focus.

I'm still watching and waiting for Bill Clinton to weigh in for Clark which he will do shortly. Still, Dean will arrive in Boston with enough delegates, even should he stumble, to make the convention hall rumble.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #155
164. It's All Good, David
I'm always grateful for your commentary and opinion.

:yourock:

DTH
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dodgerartful Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
156. Yeah they might, and monkeys might
fly out of my ass.....I will leave your thoughts, discounted, on the floor....
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Clark4VotingRights Donating Member (795 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
160. Great post DTH, thanks.
I'm particularly alarmed about that "Dean has no foreign policy experience whatsoever, and this is a critical flaw in our post-9/11 world." Also the fact that he expects to "plug that hole" in his
resume with a VP. Um, why would we need Dean if the VP will be
the one who is running the show?
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