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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:15 PM
Original message
Electoral Maps: Obama v. McCain / Clinton v. McCain
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 10:07 PM by Time for change
National polls comparing Democratic vs. Republican candidates for the 2008 Presidential election have consistently shown Obama doing better than Clinton against Republican candidates (and Edwards doing better than either of them), including McCain. I recently found two poll analyses of the electoral breakdown for the two Democratic candidates against McCain.


Survey USA – March 6th

Superficially, the Survey USA electoral map shows both Obama and Clinton beating McCain, with Obama doing only slightly better than Clinton:

Obama v. McCain – Obama wins 280 to 258


Obama gains from 2004:
Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, North Dakota, Iowa, Ohio, Virginia

Obama losses from 2004
Pennsylvania, New Jersey


Clinton v. McCain – Clinton wins 278 to 260


Clinton gains from 2004
Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, Arkansas, West Virginia

Clinton losses from 2004
Washington, Oregon, Michigan, New Hampshire


Actually this favors Obama much more than a superficial look indicates
First, Obama’s performance compared to Clinton’s is much better than it looks at first glance, because many of the states indicated on the two maps are tossups, which were indicated as going to the candidate with a very lead. When tossup states (5 points or less) are excluded from the analysis, Obama beats McCain 229-123, while Clinton beats McCain only by 203-201.

Secondly, these polls were taken of registered voters rather than of “likely voters”, which is more commonly used and generally considered more reliable. Normally, Republicans do better with “likely voters” than with registered voters, since a higher percentage of their registered voters usually turn out on Election Day. However, this year promises to be very different if you take seriously and consider important the fact that Democrats have consistently turned out for the primaries this year in hugely greater numbers than Republicans.


Hominid Views collection of polls

This electoral map is a collection of the most recent reputable polls for each state, as discussed here. This was published on March 7th. This analysis shows Obama doing substantially better than the Survey USA map and Clinton doing substantially worse:

Obama v. McCain – Obama wins 309 to 229



Obama gains from 2004
Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, North Dakota, Iowa, Ohio, Virginia

Obama losses from 2004
None


Clinton v. McCain – McCain wins 303-235



Clinton gains from 2004
Ohio, Arkansas, West Virginia, Missouri

Clinton losses from 2004
Washington, Oregon, Michigan (tossup), New Hampshire, Wisconsin


Final comments

One reason that it is important to look at polls of head to head competition against McCain at this time is that they can be useful (and rightly so) for the super delegates to consider in making their decision on who to vote for. Certainly electability should be one important consideration.

And these polls don’t take into account Obama’s money advantage due to his record fundraising, which shows no signs of abating, with another $55 million raised in February 2008.

It is also important to note that Obama’s fundraising has come very disproportionately from small donors, averaging only $109 per donor:

And that brings up another very important point:

Obama will arrive without any need to curry favor with Big Oil, Big Media, Labor, or any of the other significant fundraisers who have historically helped to propel candidates into office and then showed up to collect on their investments.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hillary would lose Washington and Oregon?
that's reason not to vote for her right there

how could she lose two of the more blue states out there?

AND she could cost us the governorship in Washington

Obama has coattails

Hillary barely has shirt tales


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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. She could lose here (OR) because she's not progressive enough.
Too pro-war, pro-military, anti-green, anti-environmentalist.
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
41. That's where
I'm coming from.
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sueragingroz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
47. so they'll give the state over to McCain instead?
that's ludicrous.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Polls have her down here in Wa. as well
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 10:31 PM by Upton
and you're right she could definitely cost Gov. Gregoire her job.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. That's the way it's shaping up
Here are two sets of polls showing Obama over McCain big in Oregon, while Clinton is losing in both polls to McCain:

http://www.oregoncatalyst.com/index.php?/archives/1226-Oregon-Poll-Barack-tops-McCain.html
Obama +8 over McCain, McCain +8 over Clinton

http://www.blueoregon.com/2008/02/new-rasmussen-r.html
Obama + 9 over McCain, McCain +3 over Clinton

These are in addition to the Survey USA poll that I note in the OP.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. I'm an Obama supporter, but I don't think the Pacific NW will go red if Hillary is the nominee
On the other hand, she'd probably have to fight for the states, and pour money into them, whereas, if Obama is our nominee *crosses fingers* there is no contest. McCain might as well not show his face here.
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d.amber Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. I'm from Washington and I saw massive Obama support
In fundraising alone before Edwards dropped out, Clinton was behind Edwards in fundraising.

I think she could very well not win Washington in a general, but I think Washington would go with Obama no matter what...except if he took Hillary as his VP. We want change out here.
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kick for a victory in the GE
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Yes We Did Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. I really think that is a bunch of bullshit.
None of these polls take one very important think into consideration.

The republicans don't like McCain. We are turning out 3-1 to vote. There is no way in hell it is that close if Obama is the nominee.

He slaughters McCain.

But, hey, they gotta try to feed us as much bullshit as we can stomacher.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. That's what I'm saying
These polls were taken of registered voters rather than of “likely voters”, which is more commonly used and generally considered more reliable. Normally, Republicans do better with “likely voters” than with registered voters, since a higher percentage of their registered voters usually turn out on Election Day. However, this year promises to be very different if you take seriously and consider important the fact that Democrats have consistently turned out for the primaries this year in hugely greater numbers than Republicans.

Anyhow 309-229 is a pretty solid victory.
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theredpen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. I posted this last week.
Great stuff, but a little out of date, though.

One interesting thing about the data behind these is that Obama was within 1% point of beating McCain in Texas. That's a statistical dead heat.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Obama seems to have more appeal in the West than a Dem presidential candidate has had in quite
a while.

A Democrat for president hasn't won ND since the Johnson landslide of 64.
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thevoiceofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bullshit. Hillary loses Florida.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. And, Obama loses Ohio.
If that's the litmus test around here, then we can all play.
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thevoiceofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Gosh. I wish I could reply. But I've ignored you for some time. Bye.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. That may be right
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. I would think Obama has a much better chance of taking FL.
He hasn't brought his revival to town yet, but when he does get here I think he can turn FL around the same way he has done in TX.

I don't think Clinton can beat McCain down here.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. what a bogus piece of biased markley
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. so its biased if its not pro-Hillary?
so what flavor is the kool-aid tonight?


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. Why make a statement like that without even explaining your point of view?
How does that contribute to discussion?
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Biased and out of date.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. On what basis do you think it's biased? And regarding being "out of date",
national polls have consistently shown Obama doing better than Clinton against McCain and all other Republicans over a period of several months. Do you really think that 11 days is going to make that much of a difference?

The main value of these electoral maps IMO is that it shows where Obama's relative strength lies compared to Clinton.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Um, Hillary is beating McCain by 5 now....and Obama is within the MOE... so yes.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. You're talking about a single poll in which the difference between Obama and Clinton is within
the MOE.

Taken against against a long string of polls showing Obama doing substantially better going back several months, I don't think that means much unless it continues. On the other hand, the data in this OP represents 50 individual state polls for each of the four maps presented.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Well in this case 11 days COULD make a difference
11 Days is a long time in the world of politics. With this whole Reverend Wright thing, Obama's numbers may have slipped some.

But then again, maybe today's speech was reassuring to many. I hope so. I like him. I support him. And if he's the nominee I want to see him win.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. It was an excellent speech
I have to believe that if he's come this far, a little thing like this can't hurt him when he handles it so well. But our corporate media will keep coming at him, you can be sure of that.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. Is that your epitaph?
Sounds about right. :shrug:
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
18. as a south dakotan, let me say there's no way that O will win ND. nt
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Really? So how many North Dakotans have you talked to or polled on this issue?
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
20. No way in Hell HRC will win FL come this Nov.
And no way in Hell Obama will lose NJ come this Nov. too
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Did you note the Hominid Views collection of polls in this OP?
That has Obama winning PA and NJ and Clinton losing FL.
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
24. K+R - I appreciate the time it took to post this
If either Democratic candidate can win in the GE, why not celebrate just that one little piece of information for the moment? Our country is turning the corner.

:thumbsup:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thank you -- damn right, I think we're finally going to get a Dem President after 8 of the worst
years in the history of our country. I'd rather see Obama get the nomination, but I feel quite sure that Hillary will be a lot better than McCain.
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ORDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
29. Interesting as an aside, but really pretty irrelevant this far from the GE. I'm more interested
in getting our nominee, the sooner the better.

:dem:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
45. I've said it before: The sooner Obama wins the nomination the better off we'll be
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
30. kicked and recccccccccccccccccc'd
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
31. That doesn't take into account the fact Obama's electability is steadily declining
Nominate him and what will the map be in November? :scared:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. Yes, when a fellow Democrat says that the Republican opposition is a more
"experienced" Commander-in-Chief, that tends to damage one's electability. If stuff like that keeps up, it will be very difficult for either candidate to maintain their electability.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
33. old data
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Are you aware of any newer state level data that contradicts this?
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
34. What a waste of time that was.
For one thing, it's much too early and many of the states are way too close to draw conclusions about who will win.

For another thing, it's much too early and many of the states are way too close to draw conclusions about who will win.

And finally, it's much too early and many of the states are way too close to draw conclusions about who will win.

P.S.

It's much too early and many of the states are way too close to draw conclusions about who will win.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Polls don't draw conclusions
They show trends.

Why do you think that people pay so much to have them taken if they don't have any value?
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. It's too early to show a trend when McCain has the advantage of
Hillary and Obama still battling each other.

As most have stated here, that's why we need to resolve this long before the Convention. Either of our two candidates can become stronger against McCain in many different states, and it's really too early to be able to predict ALL of the states each candidate will match up better in. Some, yes. All, no. But it's an interesting analysis, I'll give you that. I live in WA and I cannot imagine any scenario where Clinton would not win the state -- IF given enough time to campaign one-on-one against McCain.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I certainly hope that this fight for the nomination will be resolved as quickly as possible
I honestly don't see a way that Clinton can win this without hurting the party. I'm very disappointed that she has gone so negative, especially her implying that McCain would be a more "experienced" Commander-in-Chief than Obama, and trying to change the rules in mid-stream to get the FL and MI delegates.

But that's no reason not to pay attention to polls. For one thing, if we see both candidates losing ground to McCain that should be a wake-up call to stop this crap. For another thing, if the superdelegates see polls that suggest that Obama has a better chance of beating McCain, that should be an incentive to make sure that they don't hand the nomination to Clinton against the will of the people of the Democratic Party.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
36. CO Goes Blue For Obama
Convention, we nominate first multi-racial president! party, party, party
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
46. More stupid polls
NO Democrat is going to lose Oregon.

Anyone who tells you that is full of shit....
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Really? Too bad we aren't all omnicient like you! There would be no need for polls, like these
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