FL and MI are in the hands of the credentials committee now.

[madfloridian]

I see so many posts here saying Dean sucks, Dean makes me sad, Dean is a loser. It is all so silly. At this stage the rules kick in for whether the two states and the Hillary campaign go to the rules committee or more likely the credentials committee this summers.

I doubt they will bother with the rules committee since they are the ones who sanctioned them.

There is apparently going to be a push by the Hillary campaign to win no matter what, even though the figures are now against.

People keep coming here in droves now to condemn the ones who are not in control of this right now. Learn what is going on, and stop trying to disrupt and divide the party.

Nobody wins that way.

Read this article all the way through, carefully. Take time to do it.

How The Battle over Michigan and Florida is Fought.

Less than a year ago Florida and Michigan embarked on a dare. Republican and Democratic Party rulemakers wishing to prevent a cycle of states moving their dates forward and moving the Presidential race into 2007 drew a line in the sand. The states of Florida and Michigan crossed that line and forfeited their delegates on the Democratic side. They thought maybe their contest would influence the race anyway and by the time the convention came around the parties already having settled on a nominee would restore their delegations so that it wouldn’t become an issue in the general. For better or worse on the Democratic side the race continues and Michigan and Florida’s gamble is looking more and more like a bad one.

Then comes the discussion of the committees who are in charge of this now. It was never in Howard Dean's hands. He was not even at the rules committee meeting which sanctioned Florida. The committee was appointed by McAuliffe in December 2004.

The chairs of the committee are all veterans of the Clinton administration in some way: Alexis Herman, James Roosevelt, Jr. and Eliseo Roques-Arroyo: this led to certain conspiracy theories. But all three have maintained their neutrality; there are many Clinton officials supporting Obama, and it’s hard to find prominent Dems who didn’t play some role in the Clinton administration.

Anyway, Mr. Dean has not packed the committee with Clinton loyalists. He’s packed the committee with, well, Dean loyalists. Those of us who covered the Dean campaign will be familiar with many of the names,and the names follow.

I know many of them from before, they are fair people who believe in following rules.

Here is more:

After around the end of June the Credentials Committee begins to take over. I’ll explain how the members of this standing committee for the convention are selected. There are 183 votes on the committee (including a quarter vote given to American Samoa, the Virgin Islands, Guam, and Democrats Abroad). 157 of them (we’ll exclude Democrats abroad and the three territories) of them are divided by population with every state (as well as Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia) having a minimum of one member. The elected delegates to the convention of each state and territory vote who they want their members to be. But of course it isn’t that simple.

..."In addition there are 25 spots on each committee for “Party Leaders and Elected Officials” called PLEOs who are elected by the Executive Committee of the Democratic National Committee. Nominees for these 25 spots are submitted by Howard Dean after “consultation with the State Chairs from those states from which members are contemplated to be nominated.”

With Obama doing well in smaller states and smaller states being overrepresented (in terms of population) on the committees Obama will have a plurality of members. Both Clinton and Obama will still probably need the votes of members selected by Howard Dean in order to reach a majority.

Then the article covers the convention. There are step by step rules which the media is ridiculing, and which people are coming here in droves to shout out against.

But that is the way things work. FL and MI know it. Hillary knows it. They do not care. They want it to be their way.

The battle is on, and it is not the fault of Howard Dean or the DNC. It is fault of two states who butted ahead in line, and a candidate who thinks the rules do not apply to her.

Read the article, and quit the talking points.

[suston96]

1. Yeah, quit talking about the Democratic Party Charter ......

....which guarantees every Democrat full participation by voting in the nominating process, and quit that endless whining that every vote counts. That's a myth - used to sucker people into becoming Democrats.

Quit those silly talking points.

[JVS]

2. link?

[suston96]

17. This is the 15th time I post this and its link.....

The National Convention shall be composed of delegates who are chosen through processes which (i) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate and include affirmative action programs toward that end, (ii) assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who participate in the presidential nominating process, . . . (v) restrict participation to Democrats only . . . ."

Democratic National Committee, Charter of the Democratic Party of the United States, Art. Two, 4 (emphasis added). <450 U.S. 107, 118>

Is there something about this part people don't get? "The National Convention shall be composed of delegates who are chosen through processes which (i) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate."

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:i1Dy8P2UOcoJ:www.democrats.org/pdfs/charter.pdf+Democratic+Party+Charter&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

[Johnny__Motown]

25. I'm sorry but I don't quite get your point.

*Is there something about this part people don't get? "The National Convention shall be composed of delegates who are chosen through processes which (i) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate."*


are you saying MI and FL were not given....full, timely and equal opportunity to participate?


It seems to me that they/we did. If MI and FL were allowed to break the rules then how would that give the other states who did obey the rules equal opportunity?

[TAWS]

3. The delegates have to approve the recommendation of the committee, so it doesn't really matter

And since Obama will have more delegates, they will not overturn Michigan and Florida.

[mohc]

5. Not to mention

That Obama has almost clinched the majority of Credentials
committee spots. 

State                   Members Votes
ALABAMA                 2       2
ALASKA                  1       1
AMERICAN SAMOA          1       0.25
ARIZONA                 2       2
ARKANSAS                1       1
CALIFORNIA              17      17
COLORADO                2       2
CONNECTICUT             2       2
DELAWARE                1       1
DEMOCRATS ABROAD        1       0.25
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA    1       1
FLORIDA                 8       8
GEORGIA                 4       4
GUAM                    1       0.25
HAWAII                  1       1
IDAHO                   1       1
ILLINOIS                7       7
INDIANA                 3       3
IOWA                    2       2
KANSAS                  1       1
KENTUCKY                2       2
LOUISIANA               2       2
MAINE                   1       1
MARYLAND                3       3
MASSACHUSETTS           4       4
MICHIGAN                6       6
MINNESOTA               3       3
MISSISSIPPI             1       1
MISSOURI                3       3
MONTANA                 1       1
NEBRASKA                1       1
NEVADA                  1       1
NEW HAMPSHIRE           1       1
NEW JERSEY              5       5
NEW MEXICO              1       1
NEW YORK                11      11
NORTH CAROLINA          4       4
NORTH DAKOTA            1       1
OHIO                    7       7
OKLAHOMA                2       2
OREGON                  2       2
PENNSYLVANIA            7       7
PUERTO RICO             2       2
RHODE ISLAND            1       1
SOUTH CAROLINA          2       2
SOUTH DAKOTA            1       1
TENNESSEE               3       3
TEXAS                   9       9
UTAH                    1       1
VERMONT                 1       1
VIRGIN ISLANDS          1       0.25
VIRGINIA                4       4
WASHINGTON              3       3
WEST VIRGINIA           1       1
WISCONSIN               3       3
WYOMING                 1       1
PARTY OFFICIALS         25      25
TOTALS                  186     183

I am not entirely sure if FL and MI also have their standing
committee memberships stripped, but states can not vote on
their own delegates in the credentials anyway. This means 89
votes are needed to seat MI and 88 to seat FL. The 25 party
officials are selected by the DNC, and one would have to
assume will back the sanctioning of the FL and MI delegations.
If 65 or so spots are allocated to Obama, he will probably be
able to control the decisions on the committee. Bases on the
states that have already voted, he should have that number
already. The allocation process is not exact, for example in
the above list any state that has 1 member gets 1 member per
standing committee, and there are 3 committees for a total of
3 members. If a candidate won that state 51%-49% they will get
2 of the 3 members of the committees, but which committee they
are on is not set. A drawing would have to be done to
determine which committee the members are assigned to. 

[crispini]

9. Wait, where does it say they "have to" approve the recommendation of the committee.

If it's like the state convention I've attended, the delegates can vote how they want, and can certainly vote to overturn the committee's recommendation if they so choose. That's the very essence of a floor fight. :D

[UALRBSofL]

13. crispini you are right

That's why there is this flap about Hillary and Obama. Obama is blocking re-do's and Hillary is trying to get a re-do. That said, if Obama blocks it there is nothing the committee can do. Sadly. :(

[crispini]

15. Yes, but there are several steps here.

If there is no re-do, then the contest goes to the credentials committee. The credentials committee makes a recommendation to the floor. So even though it looks like there is going to be no re-do, depending what happens after this, the delegations might still be seated in some form or fashion.

Edited to add: It really depends on a lot more than the campaigns as well. There are practical logistics coming into play at this time. For one, the Florida legislature would have to vote, for example.

[MaineDem]

4. Not quite yet

The Rules & Bylaws Committee still has control over delegates. I know they're about to meet to discuss Puerto Rico's changes.

I believe Credentials takes over as of July 1 or thereabouts.

[madfloridian]

6. Yes, July. My point is that it is the same rules committee that did the sanctions.

I doubt they are likely to be more sympathetic now. In fact Roosevelt urged a revote, didn't he?

I guess that was my point. If Obama controls the committee, the point is basically moot.

If the court in Atlanta rules in Dimaio's favor, then their decision would take precedent, I assume. Ruling will come next month.

So the only hope is the credentials, and calling out Dean and threatening to withhold funds is useless right now.

Hillary's major fundraisers are having a big dinner with Dean this week. To get his attention, I guess. To threaten again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-littman/howard-dean-meets-with-hi_b_92023.html

"Howard Dean wants to prove Them wrong. He wants Florida to know it can't count, that the vote in January was not fair, was against the rules, should not count. Hillary Clinton sided with Howard Dean until she won Florida and realized she could not come close to winning the nomination without it.

And so, her top fundraisers are attempting to bribe the Democratic Party. They are going to dine with Howard Dean this week and threaten him. They are offering to pull their money from the Democratic Party if Florida, which didn't count, continues to not count. The fundraisers don't believe in morality. They believe it's all about the money.

Barack Obama's fundraisers are not having the same meeting with Howard Dean because he raised money from a million people, and his bundlers don't wield the same power that Hillary's financiers wield. What's Howard Dean going to do, meet with the nurse who sent a $100 to the DNC because she loves Obama? Meet with the veteran who sent $300 because they like Barack's stance on Iraq? No, he's meeting with the Fat Cats, who really care less about Hillary and more about becoming Ambassadors under a President Hillary.

It's a meeting of the Ambassadors Club, that's what this is. Howard Dean and a bunch of people who want to give him cash to change the rules, to make Florida count, so that -- what -- so Hillary can win?"

[MaineDem]

19. I'm getting annoyed at the Clinton people

I don't think hers actions are winning the hearts and minds of the undecided supers. Just a feeling.

[madfloridian]

22. I hope you are right about the supers.

I know it is changing minds around our area. They are catching on now.

[crispini]

7. Recommended

Sorry I wrote a thread on this and missed your much better post! :kick: I should have known you would have it in the bag. :D

[madfloridian]

10. Well, technically, the rules committee is still in charge of delegates

as Maine Dem says...but I did not make my point well. That it is the same rules committee that sanctioned them in the first place.

I should know better than to try to throw posts together when I am tired. :evilgrin:

[progressoid]

8. Oh, stop with all of your facts and practicality and stuff.

We want hot-headed, meaningless rants!!

k/r

[MelissaB]

11. They do seem to get in the way, don't they?

:hi:

K&R

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

12. another great expose on what really went down in MI and FL

thanks Mad Floridian. I have used your OPs to educate people in my state.
We'll keep spreading the word.

[fadedrose]

14. Where the hell would we be without you?

Well, to be fair, there are a few others, but not many who know their stuff like you do.

I love Dean. He was the first to fire me up for a long time and I can't forgive the partyleaders for what I perceived as being the reason he lost the nomination when he ran.

[crispini]

16. I just read the post you linked to. WELL worth a deep read!

There is a LOT of stuff going on here! I think I will have to print it out and read it again.

[madfloridian]

18. Okay, looks like MI given okay for revote....

Here is the statement from the rules committee

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2008/03/dnc_mi_leg_prop.html

"TO: DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee Members
FROM: Alexis Herman & James Roosevelt, Jr., Co-Chairs
DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee
RE: Update on Proposed Michigan Legislation

We have recently been asked whether the legislation as proposed by Michigan would fit within the framework of the National Party’s Delegate Selection Rules. Our review of this legislation indicates that it would, in fact, fit within the framework of the Rules if, it were, passed by the state legislature and used by the Michigan State Democratic Party as the basis of drafting a formal Delegate Selection Plan. If a formal Delegate Selection Plan is received we will convene a meeting of the RBC to consider such a Plan. We look forward to talking with you soon.
Posted at 12:18 PM

Hillary going to get her way?

[KittyWampus]

20. Clinton and her enabling fools determined to drag the country backwards

[madfloridian]

21. Read this from TPM...her big money people will pay for the MI primary

and they are blasting Obama for not going along.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/big_hillary_moneypeople_ready.php

"Yesterday I reported that top Hillary supporter Ed Rendell had been rebuffed by billionaire George Soros when he asked the billionaire for help raising cash to fund a new Michigan primary.

Now, however, it looks as if Rendell and fellow Hillary supporter Jon Corzine have found enough Hillary donors who are willing to throw their financial weight behind the revote.

The duo have penned a letter to Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm to say that they have "a list of individuals who, combined, are prepared to serve as guarantors to ensure that a total of up to $12 million will be deposited in the State of Michigan Presidential Primary Administration Fund by April 17, 2008."

Here are the ones willing to fund it.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/corzine-rendell/?resultpage=2&

Here is the Obama campaign response:

"The letter prompted a sharp response from Obama spokesperson Bill Burton: “This letter from some of Clinton’s biggest campaign contributors eliminates any pretense that Clinton’s efforts in Michigan are about anything other than an attempt to bankroll an election in which they appear more than happy to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters. Today’s events are even more evidence that Clinton is willing to do absolutely anything to get elected."

[OzarkDem]

27. Why did Obama oppose a re-vote in MI?

Seriously, I don't understand why he was all over the place on this one. He was for it, then against it, etc. What gives?

[phrigndumass]

23. Thanks for this, madfloridian

Kicking and rec'ing. The truth is here in your post, and "out there" if anybody cares to seek it.

[Johnny__Motown]

24. Smaller states overrepresented... Wow... HEY HILLARY.... Look At What States Count Now...

Another great post, thanks

[HCE SuiGeneris]

26. Thank you for this information!

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