Do you feel sorry for Obama's poor old grandmother?

[pnwmom]

How about feeling sorry for the dark-skinned, nappy-haired little boy, being raised in a white family, who had to listen to his beloved grandmother express racial views that made him cringe? That might have made him feel ashamed? That might even have made him wish he could wake up one morning and just be white?

Put yourself in his shoes. He was the only person of color in his family. He looked just like the scary men his grandmother tried to avoid. His own black father had abandoned the family – earning him the scorn of all the adults who cared for Barack. Can you feel how painful it must have been for the boy? To feel the scorn directed at his father? To sense the fear directed at other black men?

How would he have responded to his grandmother’s expressions of racism? When he was very young, he would have just accepted it as being part of her. Worse, he might have wondered if there WAS something wrong with black people. His mother didn’t think so – but his grandmother did. And in that case . . . maybe there was something wrong with him, too.

When he got older, he could have chosen to argue with his grandmother – but he probably realized she would deny it. Most people aren’t conscious of their racism. Or he could have rejected her, and allowed bitterness to take over. But he didn’t, because he knew she loved him, and he loved her. So he just kept his mouth shut, and listened, and tried to understand the woman whose racist statements sometimes felt like a slap in the face.

Later, he found a Church and an African-American congregation where – to all outward appearances -- he finally seemed to fit in. The pastor was inspiring but sometimes he, too, crossed the line into racism. This had to be painful for Barack, the son of a white woman, to hear. At times, he probably felt like shouting out that the pastor was wrong. But Barack did what he had learned to do as a child. He kept quiet. He listened. He tried to understand where the pastor was coming from.

Now he’s speaking out, despite the political risks. He wants to help us all to understand the truths he has painfully learned. And he’s trying to pass along his hope: maybe all these contradictions, these opposites, CAN be reconciled. Even after all this time.

And so the question is: are we up to it? Can we love each other, and our country, with all its flaws? Can we be as brave as he’s been?




______________________
Please note: I'm still officially bi-candidate. I will be happy to support whoever is our eventual nominee. But yesterday was Obama's day to make me feel proud to be a Democrat.

[Seeker30]

1. Call the waahhhmbulance for Waaahbama

[pnwmom]

4. Thanks for your thoughtful consideration.

With your obvious dyslexia, it's probably hard for you to read such a long post.

[Splinter Cell]

What a disgusting post

Thanks for nothing.

[Unsane]

78. This poster is particularly vile

he/she/it has returned from hiatus.

[Alter Ego]

101. Jackass.

Don't you have a bridge to guard?

[helderheid]

103. Your parents must be so proud. n/t

[roguevalley]

123. does anyone honestly think he didn't consult with her about this?

he loves her and she loves him. she, by this, is owning up to her faults. How about us. I have an uncle that puts rev. wright in the shade. I haven't thrown him under the bus. Does that make me evil?
We all have someone. Some of us are that person. His grandma is
good with it and where is it written that we cannot redeem ourselves?

[LordJFT]

164. how sour are those grapes?

[XemaSab]

167. Thanks for the racism!

:hi:

[leftofcool]

2. I find it hard to feel sorry for anyone who is a Harvard Law

school graduate with a Princeton wife and a pastor who lives in a 750,000 home and I don't care what color they are. Sounds to me like they are all doing just fine

[pnwmom]

5. I'm not asking you to feel sorry for the ADULT. I'm asking you to consider

how it felt for Obama as a child, and to think about how growing up in his family taught him to be quiet, to listen, and to try to understand -- rather than to argue, to reject, and to walk out when his pastor said objectionable things.

[leftofcool]

19. So you are saying that because of his upbringing

that he can not make adult choices, like walking out of a church when he disagrees with the pastor or the sermon? You are saying that his mother and step father taught him to "be quiet" to listen" "to understand" but they did not teach him how to think for himself?

[pnwmom]

21. I somehow goofed with my cut-and-paste, and half of my post

was cut out the first time.

I think the whole post will answer your question.

[leftofcool]

25. Ya can never trust cut and paste

or as we so fondly call it around here.........cutsey and pasty

[pnwmom]

27. LOL. n/t

[Bake]

From what I've read about his mother,

that would have been the LAST thing she taught him (i.e., to just "be quiet").

I don't feel sorry for Obama. I feel sorry for the children going to sleep hungry at night, with crumbling schools, with no one to care for them.

Obama turned out just fine. Had his childhood been different, perhaps he could not have given that speech yesterday.

Bake

[pnwmom]

89. I don't feel sorry for him either.

But I believe that a childhood spent trying to figure out his place in a mostly white and often racist world, is why he wasn't more confrontational when he experienced racism in his African American church. His childhood had taught him not to confront, but to listen and to try to understand what made people the way they were.

[stillcool]

105. Hey can you give me...

a run-down on the 20+ years of the Reverend's sermons? I'm sure you are not judging an elderly black man by a few excerpts from one sermon. I'd really appreciate the biography of the life. You know, so I can pass judgment just like you on the entirety of the life of another human being.

[Skwmom]

93. The Clinton Meme: Obama is not a fighter presented in an indirect way.

On edit: But it's really much more than that. Your entire post is very offensive (a dark skinned, nappy haired little boy).

[pnwmom]

131. You're being a bit paranoid. I'm not coming from the Clinton camp.

Why is it more offensive to say that he was "dark skinned" than to say he was "black"? My black stepfather would disagree.

I am white but I grew up being called "brillo" and "s.o.s." I would have loved to have had this book as a child:

http://www.amazon.com/Nappy-Dragonfly-Books-Carolivia-Herron/dp/0679894454/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205953103&sr=8-2

From Booklist
Ages 5^-9. The cover painting of a little black girl with an impressive if not amazing head of hair will certainly attract attention, but the free-flowing, conversational narrative written in the African-American tradition of call-and-response also exerts a pull. The text touches on such topics as God, family, Africa, slavery, and, of course, hair: "Them some willful intentional naps you got all over your head. Sure enough. Your hair intended to be nappy. Indeed it did." The artwork, too, is energetic. Cepada's vibrant, folk-art-style paintings have a strong sense of color, form, and design. Librarians may want to have this unusual rhythmic book on hand for choral reading during Black History Month.

Or this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Nappy-Carney-Nunes-Charisse/dp/0974814210/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205953263&sr=8-1

Nappy is a humorous and delightfully illustrated children's story containing a powerful message about history, heritage and high self-esteem. Though joyful and lighthearted, the book is an educational tool for parents, teachers and older children with the back matter containing biographies about each of the African-American women honored in the story, alongside beautiful original sketches by the illustrator.

[Medusa]

12. Yeah, uhm, I feel sorry for a certain senator from NY

and her hubby who will do anything, say anything, imply anything to get back into the White House. More than that, I feel very sorry to know that there are people of the same mentality in my party and at this board who feel the same.

[leftofcool]

20. This has what to do this the poster's question?

[thunder rising]

3. The covert racists are out in force this morning. They will do ANYTHING not to have to face the

issue of their racism.

[JoFerret]

15. Tommyrot

.

[knixphan]

116. that's what I was thinking...

And in some cases, not so covert anymore.

Better out in the open, though.

[babylonsister]

6. And do you know what I just heard?

Scarborough said, during Obama's speech, a high-placed 'journalist' called him and expressed shock that Obama 'just threw his grandmother under the bus', using her for political capital. I'm pretty outraged because I just don't believe Obama made this up. My father is 80 and told me months ago that a black man will never have a chance to be prez in this country, especially in the south. His racism is there; we can no longer talk about politics because of this black man.

[pnwmom]

9. This seems to be the Rethug meme.

But I'm shocked to see it expressed so often here, too.

[babylonsister]

13. I hadn't heard that prior to this a.m. and am fuming.

The one thing I know; this man has integrity. If he wanted to win at all costs, why didn't he throw Wright under the bus? This meme makes no sense.

[NYCGirl]

16. The right wing poops it out and the Hillites pick it up and fling it. It doesn't

need to make any sense.

[pnwmom]

17. I just realized that half of my post somehow didn't make it to DU,

so I've added the rest in.

In case you're interested.

[babylonsister]

23. I am, and this post deserves a REC'D. Thank you. nt

[pnwmom]

26. Thank you, babylonsister. n/t

[LisaL]

51. Well, throwing Wright under the bus would upset a lot of people.

So I doubt that would be a smart move to make politically.

[EffieBlack]

80. "Obama threw his grandmother under the bus" - nearly 700 Google hits

Obviously, this is the RW - and apparently DU - talking point for the day.

FYI, to all those who are tempted to use this pathetic claim, Obama spoke in depth about this in his book more than 10 years ago:

"{My grandfather} turned around and I saw that he was shaking. ‘It is a big deal. It’s a big deal to me. She’s been bothered by men before. You know why she’s so scared this time. I’ll tell you why. Before you came in, she told me the fella was black.’ He whispered the word. ‘That’s the real reason why she’s bothered. And I just don’t think that right.’

"The words were like a fist in my stomach, and I wobbled to regain my composure. In my steadiest voice, I told him that such an attitude bothered me, too, but reassured him that Toot’s fears would pass and that we should give her a ride in the meantime. Gramps slumped into a chair in the living room and said he was sorry he had told me. Before my eyes, he grew small and old and very sad. I put my hand on his shoulder and told him that it was all right, I understood.

"We remained like that for several minutes, in painful silence. Finally he insisted that he drive Toot after all, and struggled up from his seat to get dressed. After they left, I sat on the edge of my bed and thought about my grandparents. They had sacrificed again and again for me. They had poured all their lingering hopes into my success. Never had they given me reason to doubt their love; I doubted if they ever would. And yet I knew that men who might easily have been my brothers would still inspire their rawest fear."

He didn't - to use the recently ubiquitous term - "throw his grandmother under the bus." He spoke openly and honestly about his own personal experiences in a family who he loves very much, something he has been doing since before he ran for public office.

Of course, one of the reasons people are trying to mischaracterize and caricature this is that Obama's personal observation was so compelling and impactful - they'll do anything they can to try to smear, denigrate and belittle it and him.

[babylonsister]

98. Effie, thank you!

I admit I haven't read Obama's books yet, and now I must make it a priority as I didn't know he had addressed this. :hug:

[EffieBlack]

99. You should definitely read his book - it is an amazing story

and after reading it, I'm sure you will have even more respect for him - it is insightful, deep, revealing and shows facets and depths of his thinking and personality that really impressed me.

[Adams Wulff]

158. That's IT! I've seen enough from you...

Welcome to my Buddy List!:hi:

[FreakinDJ]

10. That is reflected by the polls and the vote tallies so far

HRC is doing well with older voters but Obama has more New votes and more delegate count as of yet

[SoCalDem]

7. EVERY family has similar circumstances

My boys spent a summer in Kansas with my mother, and my oldest son told me that he did not like some things that Grandma said.. I pressed him, and he admitted to me that she let words slip that WE never ever used or allowed them to use... You know the words..

Kansas is not known as a progressive state...for a reason..

[Oleladylib]

11. Kansas is -as is much of the south..........

None of the reasoning about it will win us this election..

[cornermouse]

32. Kansas is not part of the south and never was.

There's a big difference between Missouri, which was part of the south, has southern traditions, and which still has a heavy presence of the usual racist groups (29 according to the Southern Poverty Law Center) and Kansas which was part of the north, does not have southern traditions and only 7 racist groups.

[pnwmom]

35. And how many racist groups did it have when Obama's grandmother

was forming her views?

[cornermouse]

39. Well you could go to the Southern Poverty Law Center

and look for yourself. Speaking for myself, I never really encountered anyone who could be looked at and thought racist in Kansas as I was growing up there. I certainly never saw any Klan literature. I did after I moved to Missouri though and it was rather shocking. And it's surprising how there are some who are clearly racist and trying to be open and mainstream about it here. It's part of the reason why lately I've been thinking about going home to Kansas.

[pnwmom]

42. I don't know how old you are, but when I was growing up

in nearby Illinois, I saw plenty of racism, and heard racist statements coming out of the mouth of most of the relatives in my grandparent's generation. And we were all living in a suburb of a major city.

[cornermouse]

47. Illinois currently has 23 racist groups.

Most of the current racist groups in Kansas are in Topeka, KC, and Wichita. In Illinois they appear to be concentrated mostly around Chicago. I don't know about Illinois. Illinois seemed to be a long way away when I was a kid growing up. I've been to Illinois once on a trip since then, so I wouldn't have any idea how racist Illinois was when I was growing up.

[pnwmom]

54. You must realize that the number of groups is pretty unimportant.

A more important question is what proportion of the population is involved with any of these groups, not how many separate groups might exist.

Suppose a state had only ONE group, the KKK, and half the white population was involved with it. Would that be a less racist state than one with 10 racist groups involving 10 percent of the population?

[cornermouse]

I'd call that some pretty peculiar reasoning.

By the way, did you go to the Southern Poverty Law Center and notice that they say racist groups have increased 48% since 2000?

[pnwmom]

67. It appears to be your reasoning, since you think the sheer number of groups

has some relevance.

[cornermouse]

74. Mountain to Mohammad and all that stuff.

Intelligence Report: Hate Group Numbers Up by 48% Since 2000

http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=300

March 10, 2008 – Led by three states on the southern border, the number of hate groups operating in America has swelled by 48 percent since 2000, a staggering increase mainly attributable to the anti-immigrant fervor sweeping the country, according to the "Year in Hate" issue of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Report released today.

The latest annual count by the SPLC found the number of hate groups operating in America rose to 888 last year, up 5 percent from the 844 groups in 2006 and far above the 602 groups documented in 2000.

At the same time, new FBI statistics suggest a 35 percent rise in hate crimes against Latinos between 2003 and 2006. Experts believe that such crimes are typically carried out by people who think they are attacking immigrants.

"Hate groups continue to successfully exploit the immigration debate to their advantage, even though the immigration issue has largely disappeared from the presidential debate," said Mark Potok, editor of the SPLC's Intelligence Report, an investigative journal that monitors the radical right. "The fact is that they've been aided and abetted by mainstream pundits and politicians who give these haters a platform for their propaganda."

The greatest growth in hate groups came in California, Arizona and Texas, which had jumps of 27 percent, 70 percent, and 22 percent, respectively.

This issue of the Intelligence Report also includes profiles of 20 of the country's most influential anti-immigrant activists — the latest wave to join the movement (another set of nativist profiles was published in the Report's Winter 2005 issue).

These hardliners, ranging in age from 25 to 81, have advocated everything from forcibly sterilizing Mexican women to mining the U.S.-Mexican border. In the past three years, there have been some 300 anti-immigration groups founded; about half of that number are listed by the SPLC as "nativist extremist" groups. Some of these organizations are also listed as hate groups.

The most prominent name added to the hate group list this year is that of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, or FAIR, a group that has become one of the leading anti-immigration voices in the country but has for years had strong ties to white supremacists and white supremacist ideology.

"FAIR has been taken seriously for years by both the media and Congress, but it shouldn't be," said Potok. "Its officials have repeatedly revealed an anti-Latino and anti-Catholic bias. It has energetically promoted racist conspiracy theories about the immigration situation. And it has ties to white supremacists and hate groups."

The new issue of the Report lists each of the 888 groups operating in the United States and includes a U.S. map showing their locations. The groups include neo-Nazis, white nationalists, neo-Confederates, racist skinheads, Klansmen and black separatists. Other groups target gays or immigrants, and some specialize in producing racist music or propaganda denying the Holocaust.

[pnwmom]

82. Thank you. That's interesting, and depressing -- but I'm not sure

what the relevance is here.

Racism is alive and well in America. Yes, we agree. But isn't that exactly what Obama is trying to address?

[cornermouse]

102. Yes.

But that doesn't change the fact that if my kids ever used me as a bad example on the national stage I would feel humiliated and deeply hurt and wouldn't answer the phone when they called.

[pnwmom]

124. Fortunately, that is unlikely to happen.

But if I were the Obama's grandmother, I would try to understand.

[Divernan]

95. I lived in Louisville til age 9; then moved to suburban Chicago.

Back in the 40's - still massive segregation in both places. In Louisville, the black woman who came to work for my mother once a week, was also our babysitter - on occasional weekends or when my mom was in the hospital. We kids were raised to give her the same respect we gave to all adults, plus we loved her like a grandmother.

When my family moved north to Chicago was the first time I ever heard the "N" word, let alone saw occasional graffiti with that word, or heard jokes with that word. Why, there were even racist jokes which 4th grade girls used signing each other's autograph books. I observed it to be a knee jerk, unthinking racism - fostered by the fact that most whites had had zero interaction with any blacks and knew none personally. Sixty years later that little Illinois suburb of Chicago is still overwhelmingly republican and more racist than ever.

It's interesting to me that the European Union has recognized the social and economic costs and causes of hatred between ethnic groups and actively puts policies in place to overcome that hatred. It's long past time that the US recognized that our long standing problem with racism is getting worse and needs to be addressed. As undereducated whites get poorer, they are easily led by the GOP to blame their poverty on minorities competing for jobs, rather than on the power elite who have manipulated the US economy/outsourced jobs to increase their personal wealth at the expense of all working class/middle class Americans of all races.

[pnwmom]

132. It was interesting to me that Obama's speech had a bit more of a populist

ring than I've heard before -- a bit closer to John Edwards. Did you think so, too?

[Oleladylib]

140. Sorry, but relatives tell of a different experience..perhaps not organized but subtly bigoted

[flor de jasmim]

8. I have a niece in a similar position

She is biracial and spent the first 12 years living in a house with her mother and grandmother who is fiercely anti-AA and vocal about it. I cringe whenever I hear it, and say something to my mother-in-law about it, to no avail. When I was a child people made fun of my last name and weight--there are inescapable scars I carry today, so I am extremely proud of Obama, but also sorry for both him in having heard such hateful things from a family member, and for his grandmother, who was unable to get beyond the racial epithets and her own regrets to celebrate fully the treasure of her grandchild.

And a pox on those who cannot see beyond their own racism, envy, political views--whatever, to celebrate humanity.

[NYCGirl]

14. I hope she's well enough to attend his inauguration in January. Can you

imagine how proud she'll be?

[babylonsister]

18. Are his grandparents still alive? nt

[NYCGirl]

22. Only his grandmother; she's 84 years old and not in the best of health.

And his Kenyan grandmother.

[shayes51]

87. Another reason he shound not have said what he did.

I do feel sorry for her! A loving grandson would have had a private conversation with his grandmother rather than expose her flaws to the world. Anything for a vote, I guess.

[pnwmom]

88. You could also say that a loving grandmother wouldn't have expressed

racial views that made her black grandson cringe.

He wasn't accusing her of anything out of the ordinary, for people of HER generation. And he clearly spoke of their love for each other. I don't think there's any reason to feel sorry for her.

[cornermouse]

24. If I was her, after what he said, I wouldn't answer the phone

when he called any more. If she was actually racist, she wouldn't have helped raise him.

[NYCGirl]

29. That sad statement says a lot about you. NT

[cornermouse]

36. You know nothing about me.

Whatever.

[pnwmom]

37. We know that you would be unable to forgive your grandchild

in the same situation, or to ask your grandchild for his forgiveness for your own mistakes.

That tells us a lot.

[pnwmom]

30. Wrong. There are degrees of racism, and many people with racist views

manage to love and care for individuals of the race that they fear.

I suspect that, as a loving grandmother, she will be as able to forgive HIM as he was to forgive HER. I sensed no bitterness in his words or his demeanor and I doubt that she would either.

[babylonsister]

31. How do you know how she'd treat her grandson, even if she was racist?

That's right-you don't.

[cornermouse]

34. Didn't read it did you?

You just reacted and threw something out there.

[babylonsister]

38. So why should she not answer the phone? Because he told the truth?

There are degrees of racism. I have no doubt he told the truth. As I said upthread, if this was only about getting elected, he would have disassociated himself from Wright.

[cornermouse]

41. Because he doesn't appear to love her enough not to use her

to give himself an advantage in a political race and for embarrassing her on a national podium to the nation. That's why. And yeah, I think it is about getting elected.

[pnwmom]

44. You could also say that she didn't love her grandson enough

to avoid making hurtful racist comments around him. She exhibited a clear lack of empathy.

I think that it's much worse to hurt a defenseless child than to embarrass an adult -- if she was embarrassed. If she's an emotionally mature adult, she's probably already acknowledged her earlier racism -- the racism that affected most of her generation -- and has moved beyond it. Why should she be upset with her grandson for acknowledging that his own grandmother was affected by the same racism that had most Americans in its grip? It's not as if he said that she had deliberately tried to hurt him.

[boston bean]

52. but it's ok to compare it to Rev. Wright and make excuses for him, but not his own grandmother?

who gave him everything she had.

[pnwmom]

56. He has exactly the same attitude toward both of them.

He continues to love and care for them despite their mistakes.

[boston bean]

61. He made excuses for Wright, we have to understand the angry black man

no understanding for his grandmother though.

He cringes. That's it.

[pnwmom]

68. I think he showed understanding and forgiveness for her.

I sensed no bitterness at all.

[LisaL]

62. Did he ever mention his reverend's "mistakes" in his books prior

to this?

[pnwmom]

69. It's possible he never thought through all of this till now.

I bet most people who attend church regularly have had experience with disagreeing with their pastors.

[LisaL]

76. 20 years is an awful long time not to figure something out...

[pnwmom]

83. Not really. It took me much longer than that to figure out

some major things in my family.

And I'll probably still be struggling with issues with my Church till the day I die.

[babylonsister]

45. Now you sound like Scarborough. So why didn't he just

dismiss Wright and be done with it? He's trying to explain where he's coming from, and you don't want to listen. Gotcha. And no, I firmly believe he has the character to not do this for political gain. Maybe you're warped by politics as usual from the usual politicians. I prefer raising the discussion to a higher plane which is what he tried to do.

[cornermouse]

49. Politically speaking, he has.

On addition. I'm sorry you feel that way. I used to enjoy reading your posts. I had some respect for you.

[babylonsister]

60. Cry me a river; you won't 'embarrass' me into not discussing on

a discussion board. Respect goes both ways.

[cornermouse]

65. I hate this primary.

I hate all the dirty tricks, nasty statements, and I hate the way people keep putting down other posters and refusing to consider the possibility that other points of view have some legitimacy as they try to force the other guy into compliance with their own views.

[pnwmom]

71. I will also be extremely relieved when the primaries are over,

assuming there hasn't been so much bitterness that we can't all get behind whoever is the nominee.

[babylonsister]

75. I wish it were over also.

There are some points of view I just won't and can't agree with, and you're the same. Our opinions matter to us. Does that mean they shouldn't be discussed civilly?
Maybe that's why the ignore feature was invented, and I will admit I've used it judiciously for posters who prefer to be inflammatory (and I've been no better at times; I have flown off the handle in response to comments, and I'm not proud of that). My blood pressure is much better now.

[JerseygirlCT]

77. You have no loved relatives who've said things that make

you cringe? Really? That would surprise me. You've never sat around the dining table and heard things that make you angry or at the least have you shaking your head - from people you love?

Branding his grandmother a "racist" is a little harsh, I think. *He didn't do that.* He expressed his love for a woman who loves him, and who has expressed the fears and biases that many people won't admit to. That's the point: they're far more common than we might like to believe. And they're not felt or said only by people in white hoods. Every one of us has in-grown biases - if you think you don't, you're kidding yourself.

[Oleladylib]

141. and sit in a room of young people and you still hear biases! The high schools are loaded with them.

[JerseygirlCT]

148. Well, you've got to be carefully taught.

As Oscar Hammerstein so wisely told us.

[EffieBlack]

84. He didn't say his grandmother was racist and shame on you for suggesting he did

The point he made - which either went right over your head or you have chosen to ignore - is that good people can have narrow-minded views about race and that does not make them bad or evil or hateful. It makes them human.

And, as I said in previous posts, this is not the first time that Obama has mentioned this about his grandmother, in loving terms, mind you. She not only "answers the phone" when he calls, but he, his wife and children are extremely close to her - She still seems to love him dearly and doesn't seem nearly as upset as you are about what he said.

So you and all of others who are SO "worried" about his having "thrown his grandmother under the bus" can save your fake concern - his grandmother is just fine, thank you and doesn't need you to protect her from her grandson, who knows, loves and understands her better and more than any of you do.

[cornermouse]

100. See OP who brought up the word racism

and whom I was responding to and attack him/her instead.

[pnwmom]

133. The things she said came out of a racist cultural background,

which is not the same as saying she was an active, conscious racist.

[EffieBlack]

165. Why would you expect me to attack anyone?

Wow.

[stillcool]

108. Are you claiming knowledge

of the words Obama's grandmother used that Obama 'cringed' at when hearing them? Does it matter what the norms of society were 40+ years when treating bi-racial couples and families? Do you know how Obama's grandmother felt when Obama's father deserted him? I would really appreciate the plethora of documentation you have that make you feel competent to make your claims.

[cornermouse]

112. Did you read what I said or did you just jump to conclusions and

attack?

[stillcool]

122. this is what I thought I read...

If I was her, after what he said, I wouldn't answer the phone when he called any more. If she was actually racist, she wouldn't have helped raise him.

so..it seems that you know what she said that Obama 'cringed at', and you know enough about her attitudes towards race that she should be offended that her grandson would mention his life experience of racial bias in his family. You seem to know what Obama's grandmother felt about Obama's father. Hell...you just seem to be privy to lots of information that makes you so confident to express how Obama's grandmother 'should' feel, and 'should' act towards her grandson.

[cornermouse]

162. You misunderstood.

I view this as not dissimilar to the "Why is she standing by her man" posts. And I was going to respond to the Is Obama already unelectable etc, etc, etc with a "no, he's not". But I've decided I'm tired of being attacked for something that I didn't say. I'll think about Obama in November if he's on the ballot.

[stillcool]

163. I am sure you have never "cringed"

at anything your parents or grandparents ever said. In fact it is quite apparent. I can understand why you might have a very hard time even considering voting for Senator Obama, why you feel Senator Obama is 'unelectable', and why you feel his grandmother should hang up the phone on him.

[boston bean]

28. I feel sorry for the kids whose parents drag them there and have to hear that filth.

If O wants to transcend race, why does he bring his daughters to that church?

[pnwmom]

33. Because most of the time the services are positive and inspiring.

I would guess that Barack and Michelle discuss with their daughters when they disagree with things that the pastor says, just as I do with my children when our priest says something I object to.

[boston bean]

43. This is not a one or two time thing for the Reverend. It was his theology.

It was preached all the time.

Don't be fooled that this is one or two sermons.

[pnwmom]

46. I've read complete sermons that were positive and inspiring.

And I've seen nothing to indicate that every sermon he gave was full of hate.

[boston bean]

53. so what is the percentage. He is well known across America for his views. nt

[pnwmom]

57. That's funny. I bet fewer than 20% of Americans had heard of him before

all this controversy began. Probably fewer than 10%.

[boston bean]

59. you should listen to O, do you really listen to him at all?

[pnwmom]

72. What fraction of the population do you honestly think has paid

attention to the election until a couple months ago? DU is such an anomaly in that respect.

[JerseygirlCT]

79. You don't transcend race by ignoring it

And that church is a marvel of community outreach. They put their faith into action - which is a lot more than many do.

Do you not think that people are entitled to their anger? To their sense of injustice? Do you think racism is a thing of the past? As Obama has explained, Rev. Wright is of a generation that fought for the civil rights that his generation now enjoys.

[michaz]

40. I almost feel sorry for the people on here that can't understand

what Obama was saying! I am a 58 year old woman who has seen a lot of what has gone in this country for years. It is time to put this crap to rest and get a grip. The people in this country need to grow up and realize that a person is a person and I don't give a damn what color or gender they are. Yes, I support Obama. I like what he stands for and it is time for change, he is the best person for that task as I see it. If you don't happen to see it that way, fine, but why bash the man because he is black, and he was raised by a white grandmother? He is no different that any other child when he was born. He did not pick his parents or their heritage. He did have a choice when it came to his future and he made something of himself. We all have that choice no matter what our color or gender. He is no more responsible for what another person says or thinks than we are. I have friends that are my good friends, and sometimes they say things I just can't believe they said. But they are my friends. As far as Hillary goes, if you want to back her, that is fine with me. I am not going to get on here and bash her. What is the point in that? It is not going to make you change your mind about her. Bashing Obama is not going to make me change my mind. Some of the posts on here are ridiculous. I for one am sick of seeing this garbage. GDP is not an informative site anymore! It has turned into a swiftboating site of our own candidates. It now puts us right on top with the Republicans and their tricks and it is getting pretty hard to handle.

[pnwmom]

48. I agree. The bashing around here is pretty hard to take. n/t

[cornermouse]

50. You think what I said was bashing?

All I did was disagree with you.

[pnwmom]

58. I wasn't specifically referring to you.

I was agreeing that I have seen a lot of partisan and unfair candidate-bashing on both sides. And this disturbs me because we're going to be down to one nominee in the end, and I hope we're all going to be able to support her or him.

[JerseygirlCT]

73. Really well said - thank you

The nastiness is sad, it really is. I've seen comments expressing disdain for good educations and jobs, hatred for religion, dismissal of the real problem of racism in this country... Is this really what we've come to?

As you say, support your candidate, and that's great. When you move from that positive step toward the bashing of the other candidate, you step into another world - one I thought we knew better than to enter here.

[LisaL]

55. He sat in that church, listened, brought his two kids there to sit and

listen.
For years and years. You are claiming that the things his pastor was saying must have been upsetting to him. In his books, did he ever mention that anything his pastor said upset him?
There've been passages from his book posted here, about his grandmother and him being upset over things she said.

[pnwmom]

64. I've gone to a Catholic church for years and years. I haven't ever

heard anything racist there, but I've sure had to grapple with things that upset me. (Sexism, for example. Or the pedophile scandal.) And, like Obama, I've also been exposed to people around the family dinner table with whom I disagree.

But I haven't walked out on my Church or my family -- because OVERALL they add something positive to my life. When something happens or someone says something that I object to, I just go home afterwards with my kids and explain why I feel differently.

[LisaL]

66. You've made certain claims that would look more convincing

if there was evidence to support them.
Where is the evidence that in the past Obama disagreed, disliked, or was upset by some of the things his pastor was saying?

[pnwmom]

81. His own words and simple logic.

He is a man with a white mother and grandparents who loved him (but who were capable of saying racist things) and a black father who deserted him. How hard it must have been for him to figure out his place in the world. Later, in Church, he would have felt bad hearing African Americans say bitter things about whites -- not knowing that they were speaking to the son of a white woman.

I suppose the evidence I offer is that Obama is human. He has normal human feelings. His mother was white and he loved her. Of course he was hurt when his pastor said racist things against whites, just as he was hurt when his grandmother said racist things against blacks. He was both white and black. The racist comments on both sides applied to HIM.

[LisaL]

91. To me, actions speak louder than words.

By the way grandma was not appointed to any committee in Obama's campaign.

[pnwmom]

139. Grandma has had a bigger influence on him

than anyone he's appointed to his campaign. She's a part of him.

[cigsandcoffee]

63. The Gospel according to pnwmom? n/t

[watrwefitinfor]

70. Come on, you guys. Take another look at what he actually said about his grandmother.

He didn't accuse her of overt or hateful racism, as many seem to be trying to interpret it. He said that she "...on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."

He didn't say she used racist epithets. He didn't say that she said hateful things. He didn't say she was a vile bigot, for goodness sake. He said she was guilty of using "racial or ethnic sterotypes." That's a far cry from what he's being accused of saying. It sounds more like the sort of unconscious racial and ethnic stereotypical stuff that has become so much a part of the everyday American lexicon that we're all too familiar with - at least those of us who aren't in complete denial, or paid to say otherwise.

She has "confided" in him her fear of black men. Don't you think this indicates they have discussed these matters at great length, as part of a larger context, and that it indicates a close, loving bond between them? I doubt very seriously that she thinks her beloved grandson "threw her under a bus". I honestly doubt he would have brought it up without discussing it with her first.

And I'm not directing this at you, pnwmom, or at your commendable post, but at some of the comments in this thread.

Wat

[pnwmom]

85. Your post is a helpful addition to mine, Wat. Thank you. n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

86. The story was a rhetorical trick to equate PastorGate with being mean to his granny.

Now, if you think PastorGate is an issue, you evidently hate Barack's granny.
He's good at what he does, that Obama.

[pnwmom]

90. I don't agree with your cynicism.

And I do wonder whether it's related to your partisanship.

[Skwmom]

94. Oh please. This post is to the benefit of the Clinton Camp who think they are oh so clever.

Posts like this speak volumes about what the Clinton camp thinks of the average blogger - i.e., you are a stupid idiot.

[pnwmom]

134. Your thinking is oh so twisted. n/t

[stillcool]

114. Funny...I thought the entire speech...

was about the anger in both the white and the black community and Obama's experience with both. Maybe the perception of what Obama said has to do with the environment in which we are produced and how that shapes our views.

[Skwmom]

92. I really don't think your bi-candidate. I'm sure the subtle innuendos about Obama in this

piece aren't by accident.

[pnwmom]

135. That's your problem, not mine. n/t

[Romulox]

96. It was disgusting to draw an equivalency between Grandma and Writght

The obvious point being is that we pick our pastors...

[MethuenProgressive]

97. Excellent point.

[helderheid]

104. He didn't. He pointed out that ignorance and fear are the basis of racism and that it's time to come

together in this country. That goes for sexism as well. I find it incomprehensible that so many missed what I thought was an obvious point.

[TwilightGardener]

107. He didn't--he just said that there are very few perfect people, people

who AREN'T prone to stereotyping and prejudice, in all races, at some level, and that imperfection doesn't mean they aren't good, worthwhile, lovable people. Obama made the point that his grandma loved him with every fiber of her being, but was just like most other white ladies of her generation--a little bit fearful of black men, a little bit prone to stereotyping and not politically correct. It wasn't making her and Wright equivalent, it was meant to demonstrate that even those we love best aren't totally free of judging people on their skin color.

[stillcool]

113. I think Obama's entire speech...

was about the anger of both blacks and whites and his experience of both. What information do you possess that makes you feel competent in judging the life long body of work of Reverend Wright? Or do you feel entitled to judge the life and worth of anyone based on excerpts from one sermon in one day in the life of a human being?

[pnwmom]

125. Some of us do. Others pick our Congregations.

As a Catholic, I've never picked a pastor. The pastors are assigned by the diocese and frequently get moved around. The congregation is where many Catholics form their attachments. I've also talked to protestants who even change denominations if they move to a new town and there is a closer church nearby.

And the point isn't so much how "equivalent" the two are. The point, to me, is that growing up with a grandmother who espoused racist beliefs -- whom he loved, and was patient with -- taught Obama to be patient with, to listen, and to try to understand where black people like Wright were coming from, even when they said things that were hurtful to Obama, as the son of a white woman.

[OzarkDem]

152. and there is no equivalency to draw

Having a granny who was afraid of a strange black man can't be compared to a minister who preached racial division to his congregation for 20+ years.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

169. Can you prove he has preached racial division for 20 years? n/t

[2rth2pwr]

106. Imus was fired for calling people nappy-headed.

[NYCGirl]

109. And you think they're equivalent?

How many people did Imus reach every day?

[2rth2pwr]

115. I was referring to the OP.

thx

[pnwmom]

127. I would have loved to have had this book

in the days I was being called "brillo."

http://www.amazon.com/Nappy-Dragonfly-Books-Carolivia-Herron/dp/0679894454/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205952310&sr=8-2

From Booklist
Ages 5^-9. The cover painting of a little black girl with an impressive if not amazing head of hair will certainly attract attention, but the free-flowing, conversational narrative written in the African-American tradition of call-and-response also exerts a pull. The text touches on such topics as God, family, Africa, slavery, and, of course, hair: "Them some willful intentional naps you got all over your head. Sure enough. Your hair intended to be nappy. Indeed it did." The artwork, too, is energetic. Cepada's vibrant, folk-art-style paintings have a strong sense of color, form, and design. Librarians may want to have this unusual rhythmic book on hand for choral reading during Black History Month.

[pnwmom]

126. Imus was fired for a whole lot of things.

The comment about the basketball team women being ho's chief among them.

There is a children's picture book about nappy hair. I used to have nappy hair, in the days that kids called me "brillo" and "s.o.s." It wasn't meant as a slur, unlike with Imus.

[OzarkDem]

153. "Ho" is as offensive as a racist slur, if not more so

Though apparently many men don't perceive it as such.

[pnwmom]

168. I agree, on both counts. n/t

[citizen snips]

110. What?

How can anyone speculate someone else's feelings without truly knowing them?

[NYCGirl]

117. You can read their autobiography? NT

[citizen snips]

121. that may be true, but it was not cited in the OP.

[pnwmom]

128. It's called empathy. Along with logic. And actively listening to what he said.

Try it sometime.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[butterfly77]

118. Why? the truth is the truth...

something that this country seems to not want to hear..

[TexasLady]

119. If anyone thinks that the occasional white rural church

doesn't spew racism, no maybe not in the pulpit, but 'after hours' while people gather around chitchatting, hasn't seen or heard what I've heard.

I was lucky, my grandmothers , and my parents were pretty open minded towards other races. My father gets the most credit for that. But I will never forget as a kid, going with my grandma to her little Baptist church, where men and ladies made ugly racial comments all the time, regardless what race, except for whites, of course. It was whispered, and accepted.

Even in the nineties, our landlady at the time made it clear that, after she heard we had black friends over, demanded to know why were we associating with 'those kinds of people'. Like it was any of her business. Know what she did? After announcing one day that 'bluebirds don't flock with redbirds', she sold the house we rented from her to, guess what, her own Baptist preacher, and we had 30 days to find another home. This woman was the pillar of her church. A fine upstanding woman of the community. And a bigot.

It's why I liked the speech. Folks talk in the barbershops, the kitchen table, and to deny it is to stick your head in the sand.

Just wanted to add, that right here in my hometown, after 9-11, and the march to war, churches everywhere were spewing political war crap right on their own billboards. Made me sick.

[pnwmom]

130. I imagine it happens in churches in most places

where races try to co-exist, though hopefully less often than 50 years ago.

Thanks for the post.

[OzarkDem]

154. From the pulpit? No, I don't think so

Members of a Congregation may make remarks after a service or amongst each other outside of church, but I think you'll have a very hard time finding a church where a minister preaches racism from the pulpit.

[pnwmom]

156. I didn't say from the pulpit.

Although I doubt that Wrights' kind of sermons (with the exception of the few times he appears to have crossed the line) are unusual in black churches.

MLK himself said many things that were considered controversial, at least by white people.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. As sorry as I am for Rev. Wright.

[woolldog]

129. I imagined he cleared it with her first?

It's none of anyone's business anyway.

[AllexxisF1]

136. Here we go.

[pnwmom]

137. Do you put this at the end of every thread you find?

Or did I just get lucky?

:sarcasm:

[AllexxisF1]

138. Impossible...

Impossible ...I just made it in photoshop LOL.

Made this one too.

[Oleladylib]

143. SHE SURE CAN AND WILL!!!!

Saw an equally angry one of the O on CNN...so shop around!

[pnwmom]

145. I alert on posts like this, whether they're anti-Hillary or anti-Obama. n/t

[SeaLyons]

142. Not only do I feel sorry for his grandmother,

I feel sorry for his mother whom Michelle Obama called "naive". His mother was an incredible woman who lead an incredible life. I have no sympathy for Barack. His grandmother and mother did the very best they could. Why aren't I hearing comments about his black father that left him. Where is he. All the critism seems to fall on the white side of Obama. Whatever his grandmother and mother did, Obama went to Harvard and is running for the Presidency. I'd say whatever they did was pretty darned good.

[Adams Wulff]

160. "He" was killed in a car accident when Obama was 11. n/t

[EFerrari]

144. Calling out racism, as Wright did so bravely, is not racism.

And his diverse congregation that numbers in the thousands is a testament to that.

Please. Be careful.

[pnwmom]

146. True. But I agree with Obama that some of his statements crossed the line. n/t

[EFerrari]

147. Isn't ironic that we guard "the line" so carefully

but not the ongoing abuses against the black community? On whose back Bush stole both elections, for example?

I tend to agree more with Wright than with Obama but I think I understand what Obama is doing. It's very difficult and he's doing a great job.

[pnwmom]

149. I agree. It is a shame that the real issues tend to get lost in a controversy

like this one.

The main problem with Wright, IMHO, is that he alienates a significant number of people, and that is NOT what Obama wants to do. He wants to pull people together, not drive them apart.

[EFerrari]

151. I agree. Wright and Obama are talking to two different audiences

and for two different reasons.

The thing is, most students remember and revere a teacher or mentor who helped them but who they no longer agree with. That's as common as corn. Heck, most teachers WANT their students to forge ahead of them, to learn, know and do better.

You'd never know that to listen to the right wing spin on this issue.

[pnwmom]

155. And every student brings different life experiences to the table.

Obama's life experiences affected what he took away from Wright's sermons. They prepared him to be able to see both sides of the issue -- to see things both through white eyes and through black.

I knew that through logic before -- but hearing his speech yesterday made this vividly real to me.

[EFerrari]

157. Exactly. We all come from somewhere.

And without commenting on Wright whom I fully support, as a student and as a teacher, I see nothing wrong with Obama's position.

I, too, learned so much from people that I now disagree with. They are a part of my heart for their patience and intelligence and dedication in putting up with students like me.

The situation of "mixed blood" people is another whole encyclopedia. Wright is just as mixed blooded and experienced as Obama. The two men decided on different strategies. And I honor both of them for holding their ground in this culture.

I'm mixed blooded as well. You are't one thing or another unless you choose, but the benefit is, you have access to both viewpoints and may / can learn to imagine other viewpoints beyond your DNA.

I'd say that's a valuable attribute in a president. :)

[pnwmom]

159. Yes, a very valuable attribute. n/t

[pnwmom]

150. delete (dupe)

[EffieBlack]

166. It is when black people do it

Don't you understand. When black people point out racism, we're "playing the race card." When the likes of Pat Buchanan, Joe Scarborough, Rush Limbaugh, etc. are offended by anything that a black person says or does, they are fully entitled to scream "racism" at the top of their lungs.

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

175. No kidding. Apparently some of us play the "race card" by breathing.

My dear friend says, "Fuck'em, they're trash". And, she's right. :)

[Life Long Dem]

161. "made him cringe"

I can see why Michelle teared up. It was a strong speech by Obama.

[annie1]

170. i really don't care about obama's grandmother. i care more about the job market. sorrry.

[pnwmom]

171. That was an issue Obama addressed in his speech.

He sounded more populist leaning than he has before, at least to me. As if he's starting to learn something from John Edwards.

[annie1]

173. ahh, populism i like. i've never cared for anything obama has said to date...

it's all been kind of corny to me, but if he starts up on a populism trip i can get into that. 'course, he'll have to *mean* it, and say it from the heart the way JE did, but i think he can't at this point, he's got to play it safe.

and just to continue rambling, hillary often did that, try to play it safe, after she started losing i liked her a lot better. Her speech after TX and OH about "anyone who's been down and not out, been counted out and hasn't given up, this one's for you". i love that shit. :D

[pnwmom]

176. Did you hear Obama's whole speech, or at least read it?

If not, I really do recommend that you do. He was talking about outsourcing jobs overseas and corporations in a way that I haven't heard him before. Maybe I've just missed it, though.

[annie1]

178. i only read parts of it and was impressed and found it definitely...

more interesting than his other stuff. it was actually *about* something, which was good. but also to be honest, i'm tired of being dissapointed by his speeches, so i'm not going to watch it yet. i'd prefer to hear good things about it and be exceptionally glad he spoke about race in america. i will watch it on a rainy sunday. i don't think you've "missed it" from before though, i've watched him as many times as i can and he still hasn't 'spoken to me'. And this is why i think it's good they've gone on with the contest, just like i've liked hillary when she has to face a storm (After IA) she gets more honest. and now i guess so is he. when it's do or die that's when they get real. that's how i like them. so maybe i'll watch sooner than later. :)

[peruviancharm]

172. Jesse Jackson was scared of black people too

In 1993, Jackson said:

There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery -- then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DA1330F931A25751C1A965958260&scp=3&sq=herbert&st=nyt

(8th paragraph).

[blonndee]

174. Funny, someone who got the pizza a few hours ago posted the exact same thing.

What a coincidence.

[pnwmom]

177. Welcome to DU, peruviancharm!

And I remember that quote. A very sad one.

[EFerrari]

179. I have a spot for you on my ignore list!

[McCamy Taylor]

182. I have never understood this "fear the Black man" mentality. Maybe it is

because I grew up in the urban south and I am a woman and I was born in 1959, but African-American men are not scary at all. They are just men. What is the big friggin' deal? White men are much more likely to get drunk in public and act rude towards me than Black men are, probably because I am White, and men tend to get aggressive towards their own social group.

So yeah, I can see Jackson getting worried, because social groups find it easier to commit economic crimes within their own community. It is where they live. That does not make Jackson racist. It makes him a pragmatist. I don't sit around worrying about the Chinese mafia on Fort Worth, Texas.

[MethuenProgressive]

183. Holy Crap. Jesse Jackson said THAT??

:wow:

[McCamy Taylor]

180. Hell no! What kind of idiot says crap like that in front of her grandson?

It is nice of him to forgive her, but this is just as bad as having a sexist granddad who belittles women.

And you know what? People who say shit like that in front of their White kids and grandkids suck just as badly too, because when you teach children to hate others for things that they can not help, you teach them that they must hate themselves for things about themselves that they can not help--like no being skinny enough or tall enough or popular enough or smart enough.

All prejudice hurts everyone. It is never appropriate to vocalize it anywhere, even when it is "just the boys" or "just among Whites" and that goes double when there are kids.


And you do people no favors in ignoring this behavior--that includes family members. No one is ever too old to learn compassion.

[Hoof Hearted]

181. As a NON-white, all weather liberal who married outside my perceived race and has TWO rainbow kids

FUCK OFF!