Politics is about leverage. FL and MI have it.

[Nine]

We need them in November. They are huge swing states. Regardless of how we got to this point, we need to find a solution that doesn't anger FL and MI Dem voters so much that they stay home in November. If the DNC doesn't make this their highest priority, it will be political malpractice as far as I'm concerned. Let's not cut off our nose to spite our face, as many others have already said.

[MonkeyFunk]

1. I've been saying that for months

It MUST be resolved.

A blind adherence to arbitrary rules with draconian penalties won't help us in November.

[Romulox]

2. This is why (by definition) you don't open a negotiation with your final offer...

It leaves very little room to maneuver...

[tekisui]

3. Do you honestly think that the Democratic voters of FL and MI

would be so upset that they would help John Dubya McSame become the the next President?

The calculus changes in November, but if the voters of those states hold a grudge, then the Democratic Party may have to work harder, but can still win the GE.

[Birthmark]

7. You're looking at it in a way that pleases you.

However, I and my wife will BOTH stay home in November --hard as that will be to do. There is, for us, a larger issue at stake than who wins the election.

And if you think that the Democrats can win in November without FL and MI, you are kidding yourself. You're only shot for that to happen would be if some right-wing nutjob (Pat Buchanan, maybe) ran as a third-party candidate. Not much chance of that at this point.

Without FL and/or MI, McCain becomes President. That is the price of disenfranchising the People in those states. If the DNC doesn't want to pay the price, then all they need do is come up with a workable compromise. It can't be that hard if since Republicans already managed it.

[tekisui]

9. Play with the Electoral map.

FL and MI are not absolutely necessary to win. FL has never been a dependable Dem state, anyway. And, MI will almost certainly go Dem, regardless of our nominee, or the seating of their delegates.

[Birthmark]

25. Play away, my friend.

But check this out: http://www.270towin.com/states/Florida

The ONLY time a Democrat won the WH without FL was 1992...and that was probably due to Ross Perot. So, it's theoretically possible to win without FL, true. But the only time it's happened in the last forty years was in a rather unusual set of circumstances.

I guess you can try to win without FL...but it would be a whole lot easier for the DNC to act like adults and reach a compromise.

[tekisui]

32. I agree, I would like to see a compromise that satisfied most.

But, there are many ways to win without FL. OH, CO, VA, MO, IA, NM and on and on.

Many more states are in play this year than the last two cycles.

[Birthmark]

I've heard that sort of thing before.

"This state's in play"...only it didn't pan out. This year could be especially tough given how Clinton's and Obama's supporters seem to be going out of their way to piss off the other side. How that will play out in the GE is anyone's guess right now. The polling doesn't look very good, though. I think it was roughly 1/3rd said they wouldn't support the winner in the GE. No doubt a lot of that is just talk...but even 1/10th could be a disaster.

We don't have Electoral Votes to play with.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

58. Florida, the right winger state that will NEVER go DEm anyway

so who gives a shit.

[Birthmark]

61. Who gives a shit?

Only those that want to win the election. Check the history for the last forty years.

[riskpeace]

74. I give a shit.

Your user name is ironic. It's also ironic that a registered Republican in a open primary state can have a voice in the Democratic nominee, but this registered Democratic voter and long-time contributor to the party has no voice.

It's a true strategic error on the part of the DNC who got played by the RNC and the Republican Party of Florida for another election cycle.

[RogueTrooper]

23. And what are those larger issues?

[Birthmark]

28. Having my vote count, for starters.

That's a pretty big issue with me. Throw out my vote...and basically, you've lost me. It's a fundamental right.

[Independent-Voter]

36. Perhaps you should start paying attenting to what YOUR elected officials do. It's a bit late to

whine about things now. This was a known issue over a year ago.

[Birthmark]

45. Paying attention?

Yeah, and that what? What shall I tell the Republican Legislature? "I'm not gonna vote for you guys...again." That'll sway them.

Honestly, I wonder if some people have ever thought about this at all with the stupid "You shoulda..." nonsense that they spout. The truth is that the Republicans wanted to move the Primary date and they did so. Yeah, the Dems voted with them...but it wouldn't have mattered if they voted against it. So, what the DNC is REALLY punishing is NOT the moving of the Primary date, but the mere fact that the State Dems (NONE of whom represent ME, btw) *agreed* with the Republicans. It's bizarrely childish.

Throwing out the votes of 1.75 MILLION FL Dems based on nothing more than the emotional state of the DNC is wrong, stupid, and counter-productive. The Nominee will pay the bill for the DNC in November.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

59. your state is no loss to Dems, even your Dems are right wingers

so goodbye

[Birthmark]

62. Well, enjoy the McCain Presidency.

[riskpeace]

77. Do you have an argument or just attacks?

The party has had no problem spending my money.

[riskpeace]

75. The Democratic legislators in Florida

voted for a verified voting bill that got rid of touch screens and mandated paper trails. The Republican legislators added the primary move to the verified voting bill. The Democratic legislators voted for the bill to achieve a paper trail.

I understand that reasonable people can differ on the history of the decision to move the primary. But everybody's vote should count in America. I'm annoyed that mine does not in this historic primary.

[spotbird]

31. There must be polling by now

If the Democrats in Florida will stay home or vote McCain unless Hillary's delegates are unfairly seated wouldn't we have seen some numbers to that effect by now? That we don't know must mean the polling doesn't support her argument.

[Birthmark]

34. Hillary's delegates? That ends this discussion.

Hillary has zip to do with my position.

[Nine]

10. No, we can't win the GE without them.

And most voters, even most Dem voters, are not like DUers (and even DUers hold grudges). To rely on voters hating/fearing a McCain presidency enough to do the right thing no matter what is foolhardy. Voters are always just a few missteps away from switching sides.

[tekisui]

12. You are wrong,.

We can win without them. And MI will go Dem, anyway.

[Birthmark]

30. Name all the times the Dems won without FL since 1968.

[tekisui]

33. 1992

[Birthmark]

38. Correct. And Perot got nearly 20 million votes

We don't have a Perot this time around.

[tekisui]

42. Seriously.

Take the 2004 map. Take away MI. Add CO, VA and IA.

OR

Add OH, MO, IA.

It is not as tight as it was in 2004. The Dems will pick up more states. FL is not REQUIRED.

[Birthmark]

46. Yes, if you assume we'll win, then the conclusion is obvious. lol

[tekisui]

47. If you insist on helping President John Dubya McSame,

you are petty. lol

[Birthmark]

51. And the same applies to you, word for word

Think about it.

[tekisui]

53. We can agree that we want a compromise

to this mess, right?

The voters were screwed, and it should be fixed. At this point, we are faced with how to fix it by upsetting the least number of people. Their is no easy way that will be fair. Unfairness will be inherent, at this point.

I would be fine with seating them as is, seating as is by half, proportional allocation, a re-vote, whatever it takes to repair the damage done to the voters.

I just don't know what that could be.

[Birthmark]

56. My suggestion is seat the delegates...but,

don't seat the super-delegates. Quick, easy, and targets those most responsible while not throwing out votes.

I feel that last point is of paramount importance.

[redqueen]

66. I don't believe they would.

I think some have egos that big, yes... but not most.

[Birthmark]

70. Has nothing to do with ego.

Voting is a fundamental right. Throwing out a vote should be done only for extremely serious reasons. Pissing off the DNC doesn't meet that criterion.

[Birthmark]

4. Bingo.

The DNC put itself in a bad spot. Unnecessarily, too, as evidenced by the fact that the RNC isn't facing these problems in MI and FL.

[dkf]

5. Too bad. I say No bullying by big states.

or by Hillary Clinton.

[PassingFair]

6. I don't understand the argument.

I live in Michigan, and I plan on voting for the
Democrat in November.

Pretty simple.

No DEMOCRAT that I know plans on sitting
the election out because OUR LEADERS
fucked up by playing chicken with the
RULES of the DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

I know MANY independents and "Reagan republicans"
that plan on voting for Obama in the
General Election.

We know who screwed up.

[SoCalDem]

13. That's because you are a thinking person..not an ideologue

FL & MI jumping ahead were supposed to super-charge HRO's campaign for the lead in to her magnificent sweep on Feb 5.. Game Over

It was supposed to shut down Obama & Edwards before they ever had a chance..

Mom said "no".. they did it anyway.. they were sent to their rooms..

end of story.

[mac2]

19. Then those who screwed up your vote and power

will win. These are big states with many delegates. The election was decided before the primary by our own. Get the party leaders out of power...how many elections are they going to hand over to Republicans (when we won)?

[Birthmark]

49. The DNC threw out my vote, not the State Party.

And the Republican Legislature set the date for the Primary.

The FDP merely agreed with the Republicans. Pretty thin infraction for throwing out 1.75 million Democratic votes.

But none of that matters. The fact is this: If no delegates are seated from FL, then I won't vote; neither will my wife; neither will anyone I can convince between now and then. All your rationalizations might make you feel better, but they accomplish nada.

[PassingFair]

57. Then you deserve McCain.

Take your ball and GO HOME.

We have BALLS enough here.

[Birthmark]

63. No, I deserve my vote being counted.

And if you don't agree, then YOU deserve McCain...and you'll get him, too.

[PassingFair]

79. I expect it from Florida, anyway. n/t

[SoCalDem]

8. They have 54 super delegate votes that HRC wants desperately

and a possibility to close the gap in the popular vote,.,, It's about HER...not the voters ..

[Nine]

16. Yes, she will probably benefit. But it's not about her.

Even if I were not a Clinton supporter, I would say this. We need those states. We need to play nice. We cannot afford to piss off those voters. If the solution is a revote and Obama comes out on top, I'm fine with that, as long as we don't lose voters in November. If these were small never-gonna-vote-Dem or never-gonna-vote-Repub states, the DNC could afford to flex its muscles. We can't afford it with these two.

[PassingFair]

21. The voters are rightfully pissed off AT OUR LEGISLATORS!

We will NOT blame the candidates come November.

Only and IDIOT would vote for McCain just because
Carl Levin wouldn't fold when he should have.

[mac2]

24. That was the point.

Powerful states with lots of delegates. What do they talk about in this election...race, delegates, etc. How about the issues?

[Birthmark]

52. Those super-delegates should NOT be seated

...not under ANY circumstances. The delegates that are chosen on the basis of the vote SHOULD, though.

[Skarbrowe]

60. Could it be because she won them? We can beat the awful

reasons this happened in Florida and Michigan to death and it is still a fact that Hillary won Florida by about 300,000 vote. And with no campaigning from any candidate.

Oh, and to tell the truth, most people don't follow what's going on with primary dates. It's their fault, I agree. But, if I ask people from every state in the union if they understood their primary election laws I wonder what they would say. Even finally knowing about what was going on we had more people come out to vote in this primary than we did in any primary ever in this state.

Yes, I did hear about the Florida primary being moved up and that it might cost us delegates. By the time I found this out, again, my bad, the decision was way too late for any of the Florida Democratic residents to fight. Were we guilty about not following everything this Republican legislature and the top state Dems that went along with it did way back in early 2007 or whenever it was done? Yes. But, since this was a first, I don't think anyone really understood the seriousness of the matter until it was too late. At least I didn't.

I did get angry at my state and said I wouldn't vote in the fall. I got over it. If I am still living in Florida come November, I will vote for the Democratic candidate. If I move out of this, uh, very strange state, I hope I can register in time to vote. But, I will vote against McCain. You betcha!! But, I will always know the truth. Hillary did win Florida big time. Losing those delegates really hurt her and I will look at an Obama win less convincingly than if he had truly won with all of the United States being included. Just like Obama supporters would do if the situation was reversed and Obama had won big in Florida and it wasn't counted and Hillary was ahead in popular votes and delegate votes. You know the Obama supporters would be fighting tooth and nail for those Fl and MI delegates.

I only spoke about Florida because it did have several names on the ballot. Don't know what to say about Michigan where Hillary was the only one on the ballot.

[Skinner]

11. I might not make many friends with this comment. But what the heck...

I agree that we need to make nice with FL and MI. But the *only* reason we need to is because they have the leverage you describe. Having said that:

I'm a big believer in taking responsibility. Let's not forget how we got here in the first place: Florida and Michigan wanted to jump to the front of the line so they could have more influence on the nominating process. Fair enough. I can understand why they wanted to do that. But what's that old saying? "When you play with fire..."

So, they knowingly broke the rules for selfish reasons. what are we going to do in order to hold them accountable? Oh, that's right: We're going to give them new primaries and put them at the very end, so now their power and influence are EVEN GREATER. In other words: We are going to reward them for creating this problem.

What I would like to see is for leaders in Florida and Michigan to stop acting like they are entitled to new primaries, and instead EAT A LITTLE CROW. Admit that they fucked up. Admit that we are in this situation BECAUSE THEY CREATED IT. Figure out a way to pay for some (or all) of it themselves. Ask for forgiveness, and mean it.

Then we'll give them their new primary.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

14. That's It! I'm putting you on Ignore!!!

But seriously, as much as I'd like rank-and-file voters to have a chance to be heard, in this particular (and highly unusual) election cycle, being the last state to vote is of vital importance.

How about a compromise? The voters get to be vote, but their Democratic leaders who created this mess are stripped of their Super Delegate staus.

[Skinner]

15. That's actually a great idea.

I like it. :thumbsup:

[Window]

39. LOL! I wasn't mimicking you Skinner. I begain my post before yours but had to attend to something

in the kitchen.

:rofl:




Peace:thumbsup:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. Geez, And Here I Thought For A Second That You Were Happy To Be Put On Ignore.

I was thinking "Holy shit! GDP's even gotten to Skinner!!!!"

hehehe

[chimpymustgo]

20. That's a FANTASTIC idea. Why don't you post it in a separate thread for feedback?

[SoCalDem]

43. Ommmm. he copied off my paper, teacher..

I proposed it days ago..

'but I was generous enough to split the delegates 50-50..just NO Soooooper delegates.

That way the People "win" , get their delegates but the soooopers have no vote..and the popular vote is not counted either...

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

44. That's a lie! I copied it from Deval Patrick!!

nt

[Skarbrowe]

68. I don't understand this "split the delegates 50/50. What does that

mean. Does that mean that if Florida has, sorry I don't know the state delegate amounts at the moment, but if Florida has so many delegates just split them down the middle. Give half of the states total delegates to Hillary and half to Obama. Same with Michigan. Don't give them any of the superdelegates from that state, which I believe is up to the super delegates, but nevermind. Also, don't let any popular votes count?

Am I correct in your meaning? Wow. Talk about unfair. Again, if the situation was reversed and it was Obama behind in popular votes and delegates, Obama supporters would be screaming bloody murder if they just suddenly gave Hillary half the delegates when Obama had really won more than half by the vote of the people.

I say if they are going to give them any delegates that in the case of Florida at least, do it proportional to the votes they got. Hillary voters stayed home too thinking it wasn't going to count, the same as Obama voters. It should even out and Hillary should get the proportional delegates to the almost one million voters who voted for her. Obama got a lot of votes also in Florida. I'd say let both of them have their popular votes counted.

In Michigan? Since I have stated I want all states involved in this, I would have to say that Michigan could do a 50/50 delegates because there isn't any way to do a proportional count or a popular vote count.

[SoCalDem]

72. If it's really about "seating the delegates"..just split them

50-50.. the sooopers played along in the game of "let's go first & break the rules"..so let THEM lose their "extra-special votes"..for BOTH candidates.

the elections were about selecting DELEGATES..so yes.. the popular vote should NOT count..

But then, we all know it's not really about "just the delegates", don't we? :)

[Window]

35. That actually sounds quite fair Jeff.

Peace:thumbsup:

[Strawman]

26. What really irks me as a Democrat from MI

Is that our state party leaders played this game with my vote. It would be like me gambling with their money.

[Political Heretic]

27. Why do you hate women, you racist hope-loving, establishment hugging scorched earther!

:silly:

Just tried to cram as many standard GD: P insults in as I could. :D

[stahbrett]

41. I don't mind new primaries, but I think it's a waste of money/time

Just penalize MI and FL a little less harshly than 100% of their delegates. Penalize them 75% of their delegates.

Give Hillary whatever percentage she got, give Obama the uncommitted vote in MI and whatever he got in Florida, give each delegate a 1/4 vote at the convention, and everyone should be happy - the voters who voted have their vote count, the DNC still is shown to be in charge of things by penalizing them harshly, and we don't need to waste time and money re-doing elections.

[Birthmark]

54. No new primaries.

A new primary is just throwing out my vote. That's not the answer.

Here's an answer: Remove FL's super-delegates. They're the people (more or less) that precipitated this mess. Let them pay.

But I refuse to pay for someone else's mistake.

[tekisui]

17. CO, OH, VA

Neither of the penalized states are absolutely necessary. They would make it easier, but are not required.

CO,OH, and VA is just one of many possible scenarios to win without MI and FL.

[indimuse]

18. SO...56% should be the percentage delegates HIllary receives..This would be fair....

http://www.miamiherald.com/979/story/461944.html

keeping it simple::

Both names were on the ballot in FL.
Neither campaigned in the state. (Obama ran National TV Ads..)
Both candidates received votes...so there WAS an option!
Hillary WON the most..56%.
SO...56% should be the percentage delegates HIllary receives..This would be fair....


Michigan...REVOTE!

[spotbird]

37. Fewer Democrats turned out to vote than Republicans

ONLY in Florida and Michigan because they were told their vote didn't count. Everywhere else more Democrats than Republicans voted.

It would be wrong to the people who trusted the word of their leaders to give Hillary this advantage.

[Tellurian]

55. Yep, I agree..

Let the votes and delegates stand where they are. Fine the FL legislature for defying the DNC. The same for MI and get this show on the road.

[indimuse]

80. thank you!

finally somebody agrees...I think this is fair considering.

[tekisui]

22. Hey, pssst. Bill Clinton won in 1992 without FL.

FL thinks it is all important. But it is one state. THe Presidency does not go through FL.

[PassingFair]

29. Yep, if it DOES, we are screwed.

Even the democrats vote like REPUBLICANS down there.

(Talking about your legislature, Floridians....
NOT every VOTER).

[Birthmark]

40. With a lot of help from Ross Perot

If you're hiding a Perot up your sleeve, now would be a pretty good time to break him out. Otherwise, you should take the thought of losing FL extremely seriously.

[davidpdx]

50. The problem with your assertion is MI and FL have to call the bluff

Michigan has already pretty much backed down and said they will hold a primary in late May or early June. If that is the case, Florida has lost the wiggle room to make the case for fighting for its delegates. Both Michigan and Florida broke the rules. It's pretty sad to see people continually and falsely pin the blame on the DNC, when it is the state party's fault. The only issue left is Florida. Let them make their case in the credentials committee that's what they want anyway.

[Beacool]

64. I think that Florida will once again go Republican in November.

Hillary and McCain are very popular there and Obama is not. FL is my second state, I lived there, my mother still lives there and I can tell you that the Democrats are furious down there that their votes won't be counted.

I've said it repeatedly, and I'll say once again, disenfranchise FL and it will be in McCain's column in November.

Ditto for MI.

[redqueen]

65. This is ASININE. Will FL and MI dems really put their egos

above the well-being of the country?

[Birthmark]

67. Will the DNC really put their egos above the...

...well-being of the country, the party, AND throw out 1.75 million Democratic votes in FL? Can they really be that stupid?

[redqueen]

69. That's not DNC ego, that's due to RULES and the other states followed them.

Sorry that your leaders are idiots. I symathize, truly.

It's almost laughable to see people from those states acting like toddlers, stomping their feet and making threats about something so important as the next presidential election.

[Birthmark]

71. No, it's the DNC's ego

Don't make any mistake about that. They have complete control over the penalty imposed. I would support any sane penalty --one that didn't throw out 1.75 million Democratic votes. But, no, they can't back down (IOW, act sanely)...that would send the wrong message and the terrists would win. lol

[redqueen]

73. Stomp all you like.

We'll see how that works out for ya.

[Birthmark]

76. Stomping? Yeah...

...you're not emotional, right? :bounce:

I expect that you'll like the McCain Presidency...what with you being to the right of the Republicans on this issue. And voting is a fundamental issue.

[UALRBSofL]

78. This is how I feel about MI/FL

If Hillary were to get pressured out politically by Dean then I don't think FL or MI should get anything. Let these states fend for themselves.