CLINTON EXPOSED ON MOUNTAINTOP REMOVAL IN WV! TOUTS ECONOMIC BENEFITS OF MTR! OBAMA AGAINST MTR!

[Dems Will Win]

I DARE any Clinton supporters to defend Hillary's stance on Mountaintop Removal for coal mining. This truly reveals that Clinton is no progressive or no environmentalist. Hell, she's not even a liberal!

Hillary Clinton on Mountaintop Removal this morning

by faithfull
Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:21:26 AM PDT

(Cross-posted at the Appalachian Voices Front Porch Blog)

Beth Vorhees interviewed Senator Hillary Clinton on West Virginia Public Broadcast (audio), this morning and asked her a direct question about her position on mountaintop removal coal-mining.

Hillary's answer below the fold.

Keep in mind, mountaintop removal:

- Has destroyed 1 million acres of the most biodiverse temperate forest in the world
- Has led to a 90% reduction in mining jobs in WV because of the automation of labor
- Has leveled 470+ of the oldest mountains on the continent.

Hillary on MTR: (unofficial transcript)


I am concerned about it for all the reasons people state, but I think its a difficult question because of the conflict between the economic and environmental trade-off that you have here.

I'm not an expert. I don't know enough to have an independent opinion, but I sure would like people who could be objective, understanding both the economic necessities and environmental damage to come up with some approach that would enable us to retrieve the coal but would enable us to do it in a way that wouldn't damage the living standards and the other important qualities associated with people living both under the mountaintop and people who are along the streams.

You know, maybe there is a way to recover those mountaintops once they have been stripped of the coal. You know, I think we've got to look at this from a practical perspective.

...

I am disappointed that she is setting up this false dichotomy of "economic necessities" vs "environmental damage." Mountaintop removal does the same thing to our economy as it does to our mountains. The destruction of one and the destruction of the other go hand in hand.

Thirdly, Hillary Clinton has sat in on Senate Committee hearings on mountaintop removal since 2002, so she should have a pretty good idea of what is going on. She promised to take a flyover of the region, but has failed to follow-through on that commitment.

Listen to the whole thing here. http://www.wvpubcast.com/audio/news/0319wvm1.mp3

Update: An important note from DevilsTower:

When I was getting feedback from campaigns I could never get the Clinton campaign to give me a statement on MTR. Now I suppose we know why.

This is extremely disappointing, since most of her energy plan is quite good.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/19/105837/690/142/479900

AND OBAMA??

When Appalachian Voices asked Senator Obama about MTR, and whether he supported or opposed strip mining, he said:


Strip-mining is an environmental disaster!

The telegenic Presidential hopeful did not stop there. He went on to adress mountatintop removal by saying:


We have to find more environmentally sound ways of mining coal, than simply blowing the tops off mountains.

This is a Senator from a state that contains a LOT of (high-sulfur) coal. The fact that big fish like Obama are trending our way is fantastic.

Lets hope that this leads to some leadership on specific legislative proposals to end mountaintop removal in America by someone in the Senate. A presidential candidate opposing mountaintop removal represents the ideals of the Appalachian people. And the Appalachian people represent a potential of 51 electoral votes. That as much as Florida, Ohio, and New Hampshire combined.

Call and THANK Senator Obama for taking a stand against mountaintop removal by calling him at [phone]. You can also call your US Representative at [phone] and ask them to co-sponsor the “Clean Water Protection Act” to help stop mountaintop removal coal-mining.

http://www.appvoices.org/index.php?/frontporch/blogposts/obama_says_that_we_must_find_a_way_around_mtr/

If you are a Hillary supporter, please think about who you are voting for once again, and I don't want to be your political mother, BUT HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU SUPPORT SOMEONE WHO SUPPORTS THE REMOVAL OF 470+ MOUNTAINTOPS?!?!

Note that the locals are angry because she has been avoiding talking about MTR this whole time.

PLEASE RECOMMEND IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW CLINTON COULD POSSIBLY SUPPORT MOUNTAINTOP REMOVAL

[tekisui]

1. It sounds like she thinks you can rebuild the mountain, after it is destroyed.

[Dems Will Win]

3. Like she said: "I'm not an expert. "

Kind of like McInsane on the Economy and al-Queda.

[HDPaulG]

112. It takes a village.....

To rebuild a mountain...<sarcasm>

[HooptieWagon]

122. And the village idiot wants to be in charge.

Any one who thinks you can pile dirt back on top and plant a couple trees to replace what nature took a million years to create is definately an idiot... or a tool of the industry.

[Raven]

2. Recover a mountaintop????? How, exactly do you do that? n/t

[Dems Will Win]

5. Can't you just push all the debris back up from the destroyed creeks and streams?

Isn't that easier done than said?

[Petrushka]

108. Easier done than said, indeed! Not much more difficult than finding the funds to . . .

. . . run hundreds of miles of public waterlines into rural areas dewatered by shield-support longwall mining methods that have been used since 1975 to undermine and subside not only natural water sources and supplies (private wells, spring-fed ponds and watering troughs, as well as feeder streams) but, also, to damage and/or destroy the homes, the roads, and the very way of life for people who inhabit the "overlying land" in Northern Appalachia.

In Obama's Illinois, however, where the land is relatively flat, water sources and supplies don't disappear overnight as they do in West Virginia, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. Instead, water tends to pond or pool in those undermined fields we knew as "The Breadbasket of America".

Obama says that "Strip mining is an environmental disaster." and that "We have to find more environmentally sound ways of mining coal than simply blowing the tops off mountains."

He also says (somewhere) that we're the "Saudi Arabia of coal" and believes, because of extensive coal reserves, turning coal to liquid looks like a mighty good idea and his energy plan includes "clean coal" subsidies. (Clinton's plan provides no subsidies for "clean coal".)

Well . . . don't look now, Barack . . . but . . .

Some of those extensive coal reserves in the "Saudi Arabia of coal" just so happen to be overlying seams of coal that are being damaged, destroyed, turned into plain ole rubble and gob by longwall mining's irresponsible, intentional subsidence techniques. And: THOSE OVERLYING SEAMS ARE NO LONGER MINEABLE BY ANY KNOWN MINING METHOD!**

Oh, well . . . :shrug:

Mountaintop removal mining and/or longwall mining: In this third-world country known as "West Virginia", Montani Semper Liberi = Mountaineers are always free = Mountaineers are always children = Hillbillies to the highest bidder.

Forgive the rant . . . but . . . Hillary still has my vote . . . despite the fact that there's a neon-green sign on my mailbox post that's been there since the early 90s: "Save Our Mountains -- Stop Mountaintop Removal"

_______________________
**THAT fact was verified by an Office of Surface Mining attorney's reply to a complaint I made to the Interior Board of Land Appeals in the 90s.

[flor de jasmim]

8. Ask the architect I. Pei... he did it in Japan

He blew the top off a mountain to build a museum inside and then rebuilt it...


(there are better pictures)

But, not a practical option for the extent of the problem!

[Dems Will Win]

13. Anyone who blows up mountaintops ought to go stand in the corner for 100 years!

[annie1]

92. :D. i love this post. :D

[Sean Stuart]

150. It's not whether the top can be replaced

The damage is from the debris that contaminates the water supply of the surrounding areas.

[Voice for Peace]

25. You just glue it back on

as long as you remove it carefully, so it doesn't break apart, you just take off the
top for a little while, get the coal out, then stick the top back on with some glue
or maybe spackle. Duct tape might also work really well.

[Dems Will Win]

28. Duct tape?? We need an "expert", like Hillary said. SEND IN TOM RIDGE!

He ought to know how to restore a ridge with duct tape.

[Forkboy]

48. If the voters don't make you president, they should at least find you handy.

To paraphrase this wise man.

[Dems Will Win]

58. ROFLMAO!

[Az_lefty]

79. "Screw Top" method...just screw the thing back on when your done.

[Leopolds Ghost]

120. Is the "Screw Top" Method Related to the "Clusterfuck Theory" of Governance?

[shenmue]

4. Clinton hates mountains! Obama loves Earth! Wooo! Let's post a big photo of her teeth!

Could you be a little more tacky and histrionic, please?

:eyes:

Come on. Even for the Obama camp at DU, this is a little much.

[Dems Will Win]

7. So you support the supposed economic benefits of MTR like she does?

You want to blow the tops off of hundreds more mountains? Out with it!

[tekisui]

9. You must not live near strip mining.

It is destructive, causes runoff, flooding and is disgusting to see.

[sudopod]

70. Isn't it great

how mining companies can buy the rights to mineral wealth under your land and thereby gain the right to force you off of it and destroy everything on it?

[Marnieworld]

107. I drink your milkshake theory

Disgusting. :grr:

[olkaz]

17. Perhaps it was over the top with the unflattering picture

But could you address the content of the post, maybe?

And could somebody offer Obama's stance on this?

[arikara]

60. Obama's stance is in the OP

When Appalachian Voices asked Senator Obama about MTR, and whether he supported or opposed strip mining, he said:


Strip-mining is an environmental disaster!

The telegenic Presidential hopeful did not stop there. He went on to adress mountatintop removal by saying:


We have to find more environmentally sound ways of mining coal, than simply blowing the tops off mountains.

[DeadElephant_ORG]

78. I think that was sarcasm. geez. and the OP's photo of Hillary is not unflattering.

[Blondiegrrl]

113. I don't understand how it's unflattering. It looks like just another Hillary pic to me.

Believe me, I've seen some unflattering ones (of Obama as well) ... but this one is okay.

[ima_sinnic]

128. just another clueless me-first antienvironmentalist

billary supporters will apparently overlook ANYthing to have the "republican democrat" installed in order to enrich their own corporate bottom line and wealthy-people perks.

[Submariner]

6. This is so discouraging

I have spent my 35 yr career working in the field of environmental protection, and this DINO asshole supports environmental rape without understanding the consequences.

[Dems Will Win]

11. I am literally in shock. Johnny Chung, Riady, all the lies about Bill's affairs, helping Monsanto,

voting for Iraq and Iran wars, helping Dubai buy U.S. Defense plants, impoverishing millions by ending AFDC and touting NAFTA and the WTO and China trade, the TATA offshoring of American jobs to India, the horrendous racist campaign she has run, but this!

This!

This is the worst of all I think. This is murder of entire watersheds!

I am furious. I demand that all Hillary supporters think about this for at least 10 minutes and Google Mountaintop Removal.

No ifs, ands or buts. You had better, because this is now going to receive at least a thread a day from me on this subject alone.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

10. League of Conservation Voters 2007 Scorecard

Hillary Scores a 73% - Schumer scores 93%.

She has the lowest score of any Democrat in the NY Congressional Delegation.

In the interest of full disclosure, Barack Obama's score was 67%

Long story short is neither candidate scored well -- but remember that this is one scorecare and one year. Unlike other scorecards, this one doesn't have a lifetime voting record.

Edit: Correction. Prior year scores are available, and Hillary has been generally in the low to mid 90's. Her how score (and Obama's) can be attributed to the fact that missed votes count AGAINST your score. Since both of them have missed votes this year because of the campaign, their scores are unusually low this year. In the prior cycle, Obama's score was 96%.

[Divernan]

65. Coal-related employment in Kentucky has dropped 60 percent in 15 years.

My grandfather was a coal miner in Kentucky, starting in the 1920's. He fought to establish a union (UMW) for the miners. There was a rich and vital culture in his community.

As the author of this piece noted: In the l940's, it took one miner all day to load 16 tons of coal out of a deep mine. Today, one man behind the wheel of a loader can, in FIVE MINUTES, fill a truck with SIXTY tons of bituminous rock.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20060406/ai_n16142368

"Meanwhile, problems have accelerated, Reece says. Coal-related employment in Kentucky has dropped 60 percent in 15 years. Almost 2,000 square miles of Kentucky -- an area the size of Delaware -- has been mountain top mined. At least 95 percent of Kentucky's headstreams have been impaired by surface mining, and 47 percent of streams and rivers are too polluted for drinking. fishing, or swimming -- a 12 percent rise in the last four years alone.

An end to destructive mining would actually lead to the reduction of poverty in Appalachia, he says. Reforestation would bring a new generation of workers to Appalachia, including woodworkers, hydrologists and soil experts.

"People in urban areas are connected to Appalachia, even if they don't think so," he says. The solutions for people who will never even see the region can be as simple as replacing regular light bulbs with fluorescent ones or replacing old appliances with Energy Star efficient ones.

"This can't just be a regional issue. But we all have to act now."

AND:
"Reece cites case after case of damage the mining has done: drinking and bathing water is unfit because of toxic runoff, asthma and cancer rates skyrocket as a result of the coal dust and sulfur dioxide, mud and water from the bare hillsides washes away buildings and sometimes entire towns, falling rock from the blasting crushes people, house foundations crack.

Companies do not figure these factors into the cost- effectiveness of their methods, Reece says. Economists refer to these factors as "externalities."

"Externalities, like the woman who committed suicide because her garden was flooded repeatedly and she needed to grow crops to live, or the 3-year-old crushed in his sleep when a rock hit his house -- the human costs. So, no, coal extracted that way is not cheap," Reece says. "

[ekwhite]

87. I got that in the mail today also.

Nice layout. I recommend that you go to LCV to look up your congressperson's record.

Clinton's lifetime score was 87% vs. Obama's lifetime score of 86%.

Just to give you an idea of who we are fighting against - McCain's score for 2007 was 0%, his 109th congress score was 41%, and his lifetime score was 24%.

For 2007, Obama had 4 missed votes, on Virginia offshore drilling, population, Farm Bill subsidy reform, and Farm Bill Eminent Domain. He had one negative vote, on Water Resources Project Prioritization. This amendment, introduced by Senators McCain, Feingold, and Coburn, would have established an independent commission to set priorities for the Corps of Engineers water projects. The idea behind the commission is to prevent pork-barrel spending on water projects. The LCV considered a Yes vote to have been the correct one.

For 2007, Clinton had 4 missed votes and no votes that went against the LCV.

Basically, if you look at their voting records, they are similar.

[Smelting Pot]

12. In the interest of getting you message out there...

Please remove the picture of Hillary at the top of the article. Although I agree with you that this is a disgusting thing to support, you do your osition absolutely no favors by posting what could only be described as an unflattering picture of Sen. Clinton.

Your message is more important than your hate.

[Dems Will Win]

20. How about this one?

She just looks surprised.

[Smelting Pot]

26. Better.

But it really doesn't need a picture of her at all. Your words are stronger without it.

[JAbuchan08]

44. Is it really the OPs fault that Hillary is generally unphotogenic

I've only seen a couple of flattering photos of Hillary in the last 16 years. Are we now to institute a press blackout of Hillary photos because she doesn't take good pictures?

[JDPriestly]

14. May I suggest that someone who knows the names in the mining

industry check Hillary's donor list. If there is a link between donations and her stance on this, voters need to know it. I could do the research, but it is more efficient if someone who knows this field does it.

[NightWatcher]

15. what is MTR? go here

http://www.ilovemountains.org/

[Divernan]

69. Fare well, America the Beautiful & its purple mountained majesties

Come on Obama! Stop the degradation of America the Beautiful and finally
"Crown thy good

With Brotherhood

From Sea to Shining Sea!

[nealmhughes]

141. These photos say more than any prose. They look as if Ayn had had a child with Weegee with the Rand

genes prevailing wholly.
By their fruits ye shall know them.

[mod mom]

16. Bill Clinton in thick with MINING FINANCIER Frank Giustra-can't upset the cash flow:

After Mining Deal, Financier Donated to Clinton

By JO BECKER and DON VAN NATTA Jr.
Published: January 31, 2008
Late on Sept. 6, 2005, a private plane carrying the Canadian mining financier Frank Giustra touched down in Almaty, a ruggedly picturesque city in southeast Kazakhstan. Several hundred miles to the west a fortune awaited: highly coveted deposits of uranium that could fuel nuclear reactors around the world. And Mr. Giustra was in hot pursuit of an exclusive deal to tap them.

Unlike more established competitors, Mr. Giustra was a newcomer to uranium mining in Kazakhstan, a former Soviet republic. But what his fledgling company lacked in experience, it made up for in connections. Accompanying Mr. Giustra on his luxuriously appointed MD-87 jet that day was a former president of the United States, Bill Clinton.

-snip


"Kazakhstan’s president, Nursultan A. Nazarbayev, whose 19-year stranglehold on the country has all but quashed political dissent."

"Mr. Nazarbayev walked away from the table with a propaganda coup, after Mr. Clinton expressed enthusiastic support for the Kazakh leader’s bid to head an international organization that monitors elections and supports democracy."

-snip


Just months after the Kazakh pact was finalized, Mr. Clinton’s charitable foundation received its own windfall: a $31.3 million donation from Mr. Giustra that had remained a secret until he acknowledged it last month. The gift, combined with Mr. Giustra’s more recent and public pledge to give the William J. Clinton Foundation an additional $100 million, secured Mr. Giustra a place in Mr. Clinton’s inner circle, an exclusive club of wealthy entrepreneurs in which friendship with the former president has its privileges.

LINK: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html

[Divernan]

71. Clintons + Big Mining =$131 MILLION to the Clinton Foundation

But Hillary gives us her "Oh lawsy, Ms. Scarlett. I don't know nothin bout cuttin off no mountain tops!"

Between the Senate hearings on the subject and Big Mining being the source of $131 MILLION to the Clinton foundation, obviously both Clintons are very familiar with the subject.

[Petrushka]

118. Duh? That "Big mining" donation wasn't from the coal industry!

:spank:

[ekwhite]

132. Ahem

The "Oh lawsy, Ms. Scarlett" bit is offensive to some of us.

[cali]

18. I would never reccomend a post of yours

I'm strongly against MTR, and you actually post some informative stuff but all the crap you've posted about bill's penis and all the histrionics you perform, have convinced me that no one should r your posts.

[Dems Will Win]

23. I feel betrayed by the Clintons, Bill let me down and Hillary has been the worst sort of backstabber

I was their biggest supporter in 92 and 96. I really see Bill Clinton not resigning over Monica as giving us Bush, Iraq and even 9-11 and now a Depression.

So I admit it, I hate what they have done to this country and our party. But maybe you could talk me out of it by telling me how Bill should not have resigned because then Newt would have won a brownie point or something.

Now she is for Mountaintop Removal. What's next? I suppose she's for food irradiation, we know she's a big Monsanto supporter.

[UALRBSofL]

39. cali, this is absolutely a thin veiled stretch of the truth from the OP

First off, Bill Clinton started looking at this issue toward the end of his term in 98-99 I think. I believe a bill may have been drawn up but never went through before his time in office was over. Bush took over and encouraged and supported MTR. Clinton in an interview recently did not say she supported MTR but she suggested looking at a way to remove coal without stripping the mountain top as well as looking at the possibility of job loss as well.

Again, looking at where Obama stands on MTR, he, as usual has flip-flopped on the issue. He was for MTR but recently disagreed with it like a good politician should do when facing the people of West Virginia. It's a balancing act for him in the way he is handling the issue in that either you get the Environmentalists vote and lose the WV blue collar votes whom many are employed in this field. Obviously he chose the environmentalists votes. That said, the way Hillary handled it she didn't agree or disagree with either group.

[faithfull]

84. Where was Obama "for" MTR?

[UALRBSofL]

114. Barack Backtracks On Liquid Coal Fuel

Here is the link

http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/2516

[ekwhite]

133. The article you linked to doesn't discuss his position on mountaintop removal

I'm a little confused here. It says he supported liquid coal fuel, which is a bad idea, but that he changed his mind on the subject because it released more carbon to the atmosphere than gasoline.

One could support the use of coal and NOT support mountaintop removal.

[Petrushka]

117. After Judge Haden's decision re: buffer zones/Clean Water Act , Sen. Byrd attempted to overthrow it

by attaching a rider to a spending bill. That was in the Fall of 1999. President Clinton, however, had promised to veto any environmental riders. And, the battle was on!

Scroll down to "Byrd droppings" at the following URL:

http://www.ohvec.org/old_site/streams13.htm

[MonkeyFunk]

62. LOL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5158967&mesg_id=5159035


Seems you're pretty adamant about the "stained blue dress", too.

[slinkerwink]

19. kick for important policy diffs

[tabasco]

21. I hate any politician who supports this destruction of our natural environment.

Including Robert Byrd.

[Upton]

22. Hillary: weak on the environment

how can even the most ardent Clinton supporter condone this?

[me b zola]

24. Mountain top removal is devastating to the environment

...and the surrounding communities. Thanks for this post, I will call my rep to ask for his support, and Obama to thank him for the stance that he is taking.

[redqueen]

27. Take out the stupid pic of Hillary. Jesus. - Also, this started in the 70's.

The issue is enough... don't be stupid.

As for people being so shocked by this... uh, efforts to stop it were stymied during Bill Clinton's presidency... Byrd supported it, and Clinton supported Byrd - DESPITE his earlier promise to veto legislation with such riders attached.

[Dems Will Win]

30. How about this pic of Hillary? She's showing how you slice the top of a WV mountain off.

[redqueen]

31. I don't think this topic requires a pic of the candidate.

OR AN ALL CAPS HEADER, either, for that matter.

[Dems Will Win]

32. Say, you seem to know your stuff. Could you give us a timeline of how this all started?

[redqueen]

38. Heh, not so much... it started long ago, but picked up speed in the 90's.

That was when residents in these areas started noticing the horrible effects, and tried to use the rule of law to stop it (that's what was in 99 - the trial). The judge ruled in the plaintiff's favor, but that's when WV Dems, Byrd and Clinton came in. The bill with Byrd's rider was defeated, IIRC, but obviously the practice goes on...

[JAbuchan08]

45. Hillary is unphotogenic

it's not the OP's fault.

[redqueen]

50. Don't be fatuous, Gonnabuymeagun. (nt)

[JAbuchan08]

126. Sorry. That wasn't constructive.

but am I wrong?

[redqueen]

137. What wasn't constructive?

My Lebwoski quote? :7

Whether you're correct in your perception is impossible to determine, as it's one of them there "opinion" type subjective kinda things.

:hi:

[JAbuchan08]

149. THat was a Lebowski quote?

I meant my observation.

I realize its a somewhat subjective judgement, but it seems that often relatively innocuous photos of senator Clinton are accused of being presented to "make her look bad." Maybe they are, maybe she's just unphotogenic. Either way I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. It was maybe a bit "fatuous" as you said.

[redqueen]

152. Yup!

"Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey."

:)


And I sent this to you in a PM but I'm just going to state it here:

I agree with you about her not usually being so loved by the camera as some other lucky others (yours truly included)... but I just cringe when the pic isn't just unflattering but seems to be used to mock. We've all seen it done by the left and right... but tensions are so high in this forum... I'd rather the message wasn't diluted by kneejerk defensiveness caused by something as meaningless as a bad pic.

:hi:

[AzDar]

29. K & R...

:kick:

[mckeown1128]

33. What does this do to her chances in WV and KY?

I mean, do they care. Will this change voter's minds toward or away from Hillary.

[Blondiegrrl]

115. I can't speak for KY, but WV is more likely to vote against the

"White-hating Muslim." (not a direct quote; just a characterization of the general atmosphere here in my state)

I'm an Obama supporter. I live in West Virginia. And I can honestly say the GOP/Clinton scare tactics will play bigger on the voters' emotions than either candidate's stance on mountaintop removal mining.

Like I said below, I hope the WV voters prove me wrong. But I'm not holding my breath. :(

[Oilwellian]

34. If I recall correctly...

The runoff from MTR is laden with mercury and gets in the watersheds of surrounding communities. It's been a completely disaster in WV. I find it hard to believe WV is polling higher for Hillary. WTF?

[Dems Will Win]

35. THat's because she has hidden her real views on MTR until today.

About half are against MTR in WV I think. Anyone know?

[FrenchieCat]

36. I didn't know this!

This should become an issue on those states.

[Dems Will Win]

37. She was hiding her views, that's what the Front Porch blog in WV said.

NOW WE KNOW

[hfojvt]

40. it's a difficult responsibility

trying to decide between the environment and ordinary people vs. corporate profits. At least for Hillary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPixjCneseE

[Oilwellian]

42. Indeed

Thank you for posting one of the videos. There are several more posted at the link in my post below.

[Oilwellian]

41. Only a monster would support this activity

I highly recommend to the Hillary supporters they watch the videos on this website and LISTEN to the PEOPLE who have been affected by this environmental disaster on the East coast. It is being covered up by the media and fat cats are getting rich at other people's devastating losses. Instead of going underground to extract the coal, they're just taking the entire tops off of mountains and dumping pollution onto surrounding communities. It is POISONING the watersheds that flow through the rest of the country.

I want ALL of you to explain why you're supporting a so-called Democratic candidate for the presidency who supports this environmental disaster. I REALLY want to hear you explain it to me.

http://www.ilovemountains.org/multimedia

[Divernan]

68. They're all waiting for the official spin from HRC central to be emailed to them.

[annie1]

93. recommending anything to a hil supporter after calling her a monster isn't going to really get you..

very far.

[Oilwellian]

95. So you evade the issue...

no surprise there.

[KittyWampus]

43. great another issue we can ignore.

[redqueen]

46. The environment doesn't matter NEARLY as much as the idiocy in FL & MI.

[ekwhite]

134. What?

The environment doesn't matter as much as a flap between the DNC and the states of Michigan and Florida? Tell that to the people who are downstream from these mining operations. Tell that to the people who have lost their jobs, their homes, and their health. :wtf:

[redqueen]

138. I was being facetious...

Clinton's supporters are flooding the forum with her newfound concern for the rights of the voters in MI to have their votes be counted - despite her earlier blithe 'those states don't matter' quotes.

I was venting my frustration with that camp's preoccupation with that kind of BS while issues like this are apparently... just not worth discussing.

:shrug:

[yardwork]

47. Whoa! I'm very disappointed in Hillary.

I know that the WV primary is coming up, but geez. This is a no-brainer, and she's on the wrong side of it.

I've traveled the WV Turnpike every year since 1978 and it is heartbreaking to see the changes in recent years. Entire mountains are gone, and nothing but wasteland left in their place. The runoff from these barren hillsides floods people's homes.

These are some of the oldest mountains on earth.

The economic and environmental devastation will last many years longer than any short-term economic benefit.

[hedgehog]

49. If you fly out of Dulles for points west or south, just look out your window and you'll see

mountain top removal. How anyone can see that and then defend it is beyond me!

[rocktivity]

51. "...Hillary Clinton has sat in on Senate Committee hearings on mountaintop removal

since 2002, so she should have a pretty good idea of what is going on. She promised to take a flyover of the region, but has failed to follow-through on that commitment."

Yet she complains about Obama not calling a meeting of a foreign relations subcommittee? Doesn't she realize that people KEEP RECORDS of this kind of stuff?

:shrug:
rocknation

[faithfull]

52. Thanks for the kind words

I hope we can, collectively, have all three candidates come out firmly against mountaintop removal. Please contact the campaigns and ask that they oppose mountaintop removal and support the Clean Water Protection Act (HR 2169) in the energy platforms.

Thanks!
peace,
faithfull

[Coexist]

53. will do.

[Dems Will Win]

54. This is the person who wrote the original post on DailyKOS, please help her out!

[faithfull]

55. I'm a dude

I'm even wearing boots! :)

[Dems Will Win]

57. I mean please help HIM out!

[Divernan]

56. Concern 4 "economic tradeoffs": HRC-speak for protecting her Big Corp donors

Believe me, if Big Coal had to pay (1)to clean up/control the destruction of West VA "hollers", i.e. the valleys and hollows below the mountaintops, let alone her preposterously bogus (2)"ya know, maybe to recover those mountaintops", Big Coal would very quickly be bankrupt.

HRC HAS to defend Big Coal's right to continue raping West Virginia of both its natural resources, its natural beauty, its historic communities and its coal mining jobs - otherwise they'd quit funding her. This question would have been a perfect opportunity for her to condemn the practise and boost the need for a very speedy development of and conversion to alternative fuel sources.

And "ya know" we're not just talking about spoiling the view. Many rural West Virginians have been driven out of communities where their families have lived for over a hundred years. The water tables and wells are ruined. The streams are toxic. Go to PBS/Bill Moyers Journal for this story:

Mountaintop Ministry
Allen Johnson co-founded and heads the advocacy group, Christians for the Mountains, an organization that summons Christians to help protect the environment, paying particular attention to the southern Appalachian Mountains region.

Since this segment originally aired in October 2006, Christians for the Mountains has joined up with other denominations in making mountaintop removal mining an issue of urgency among the creation care leaders nationwide. In May 2007, Allen and Roman Catholic priest Father John Rausch hosted religious leaders for a two-day tour of mountaintop removal sites, and at the end of the tour, the two dozen religious leaders signed a joint statement against mountaintop removal practices.

For first-hand insight into the mountaintop removal fight here is a brief essay from Allen Johnson:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

On August 22, The New York Times published an article that began, “The Bush administration is set to issue a regulation on Friday that would enshrine the coal mining practice of mountaintop removal.”

Enshrine. An oddly appropriate word, I thought. A biblical word, even. A place where dwell the gods. Like the gods of money, comfort, and power.

For over 2 years I have been involved with a network organization, Christians For The Mountains, to engage Christians and their churches to take on the moral question of mountaintop removal. The massive scale of beheading coal-bearing mountains, obliterating headwater streams, and building multi-billion gallon toxic slurry impoundments begs biblical and theological activity.

It is now clear the coal industry and their regulatory and political sidekicks care only about the dollar. An honest debate on the ethics and morality of mountaintop removal has not occurred. Like wolves salivating their chops over a field of lambs, the coal industry and their lapdogs in government now look upon coal-to-liquid technology as a new source of meat to feast their jaws. “Coal will bring prosperity to the state,” they trumpet; yet after more than a century of economic and political domination by the coal industry, West Virginia has one of the highest poverty rates in the country, especially in the southern coalfields. So much for prosperity.

Ok, churches, let’s have it. Is “it right by God” to permanently destroy the mountains, valleys, forests, streams, rich diversity of animals and plants, and local culture, to provide a few jobs, a tidy corporate profit, and a cheap light bill? For a couple of generations at most? Through exploiting an economically desperate, vulnerable, defenseless population?

We think not. “The earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains” is from the 24th Psalm that launched Christians For The Mountains two years ago at a gathering in Charleston, West Virginia. Simply put, this answered for us a decisive question: “Is nature our property to do with as we like? Or do we as humans have responsibility that corresponds to our privilege of living and gaining our sustenance within God’s creation?”



Posted by Bill Moyers Journal on September 7, 2007 01:05 PM | Permalink

[JVS]

59. caption for hillary pic

Well, I stand up next to a mountain
And I chop it down with the edge of my hand

[Dems Will Win]

61. That's why I like that pic: SLICE HERE

[Johnny__Motown]

63. More Hendrix? nice (link provided)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwLaCb07lAs

[redqueen]

66. Oh my...

[Johnny__Motown]

64. She did say that she didn't know enough to have an independent opinion

I will give her some respect for that...

I think she got caught off guard. (not that she wouldn't side with the energy companies, I honestly don't know)


I don't like her and am very Pro 'Bama, but this looks like a "gotcha" to me

[Divernan]

67. She has sat in on years of Senate hearings on mountain top mining

As was detailed in the OP.
"Thirdly, Hillary Clinton has sat in on Senate Committee hearings on mountaintop removal since 2002, so she should have a pretty good idea of what is going on. She promised to take a flyover of the region, but has failed to follow-through on that commitment."

All this BS about her decades of experience?

Where the US will get its energy and our energy dependence on coal and oil are MAJOR ISSUES - and nowhere more than West Virginia. HRC always has jive ass justifications for her corporate friendly positions. Just take another look at the massive degradation of our mountain ranges posted upthread. I don't give her any respect.

[redqueen]

73. If she really was in those Senate Committee hearings on MTR

and still tried the "I don't know enough" excuse...

*sigh*

[johnnydrama]

127. but notice

even when she's caught off guard, her gut tells her to side with the corporations.

Maybe we can put the mountain top back indeed.

[RestoreGore]

72. Neither Clinton or Obama have called for a moratorium on coal fired power plants

Burning it is an environmental disaster as well. So why haven't they called for a moratorium on new plants? Obama may say he is against mountaintop removal now, but he did say he wanted to see other ways of mining the coal. Mining it alone is an environmental catastrophe and a health hazard. We need to wean ourselss OFF COAL. So how is he any different in that respect? They are both bowing to the coal lobby but in different ways, and Obama was even at one time for liquid coal until he had to backtrack after being confronted by environmentalists.

[Scurrilous]

74. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Life Long Dem]

75. When are Hillary supporters going to realize she is scamming you

She is a fake, a phoney, a lier, she is dishonest,

And she is your representitive for the WH?

[Dems Will Win]

77. No Hillary supporters are really defending her here

[Major Hogwash]

76. Hillary is not even qualified to talk about MTR!! She's an idiot looking for the exit.

She doesn't even talk about environmental concerns, because she doesn't have any!
Every time she says she wants clean air, she doesn't do anything to make it happen.

She has no experience even discussing MTR!!

35 years of doing what - promoting herself and her husband - that's her 35 years of experience!

[cooolandrew]

80. I have always found in realtionships "maybe" means no.

[Ysabel]

81. k and r (n/t)...

[New Dawn]

82. K&R

[backscatter712]

83. Mountaintop removal may be Hillary's Wright...

And I don't think that even a knock-it-out-of-the-park speech could save her if her support for turning the Appalachians into a toxic moonscape makes the evening news.

Think a 527 group could be formed to broadcast her support for environmental destruction?

Let's make sure she can't live this down or spin it down.

[Tatiana]

85. Damn, I have to hand it to you...

You'd probably give skinner a run for his money at oppo research. You are probably one of the best on this site, given that you use truthful facts to bolster your point. Sometimes, I wish you'd stay above the belt, though. It would make your informative posts that much more persuasive.

MTR is heinous and I hope the good people of WV fight back against the corporate theft of their natural resources and land.

[Dems Will Win]

86. Gee thank you -- I guess!

[ekwhite]

88. She needs to end her support of mountaintop removal

It is a horrendous practice that has ruined the lives of Appalachian people, and despoiled some of the most beautiful country in our nation.

[Dems Will Win]

89. Ditto!

[nankerphelge]

90. Anyone who..

knows anything about MTR mining will not support Clinton after this.

[Colobo]

91. Good post!

[madrchsod]

94. big coal sponsored several of the democratic debates

3 or 4 questions during those debates were about the environment.

there is`t enough votes in those valleys to worry about

[Blondiegrrl]

110. The majority of West Virginians oppose strip mining.

The poll, conducted by Lake, Snell, & Perry of Washington, D.C., found that 56 percent said they opposed mountaintop removal coal mining while only 29 percent were in favor. In addition, 65 percent said that a political candidate's position on the environment was important.

"Rarely do we see such unanimity of opposition," observed Daniel Gotoff, Vice President of Lake, Snell, Perry and Associates. "Across the state, a solid majority of voters opposes the practice of mountaintop removal, and there is remarkable intensity to that opposition. Furthermore, candidates for elected office should take heed, as many voters say they will consider a candidate's position on this crucial issue when they cast their ballots."

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jul2004/2004-07-16-09.asp

[GoddessOfGuinness]

96. Mountaintop removal is an abomination; and I'm shocked she would be so naive about it...

It doesn't take 5 minutes to view pictures of "recovered" mountaintops.

Here's one for starters:
Dumbyass would love that one.

More here: http://www.ohvec.org/galleries/reclamation/hobet/index.html

[Dems Will Win]

97. kick

[DCofVA]

98. Yet, another reason to vote for Obama

[dailykoff]

99. I have no trouble understanding how Hillary could support MTR

or any other environmental disaster that lines the pockets of her OilCo pals.

[Frank Booth]

100. Very troubling.....

[Infinite Hope]

101. As I've long said, she'll lose the WV primary. n/t

[Blondiegrrl]

102. No she won't. There are too many brain-dead idiots in this state who

never bother to pick up a newspaper or educate themselves in any way, shape or form. They'll vote for Clinton because, "Ain't she that lady that's married to that guy that used to be president?" As opposed to that "Mooslim with a funny name," Obama.

That said, the majority of West Virginians are opposed to mountaintop removal. I wish there were some way to get this info out on the news station of choice, Fox News. Only then would more West Virginians learn of Clinton's position.

[Major Hogwash]

109. Yes, she will, the mining unions are for Obama in West Virginny.

I talked to one of the girls who lives in WVA and she said that Obama is probably going to win there.

[Blondiegrrl]

111. Believe me, I hope I am wrong.

From where I sit (Charleston, WV), it doesn't look good. The most recent poll my newspaper conducted -- last week -- had Hillary ahead here by 15-20 points.

I'm still seething that WV bucked its traditional Democratic lean to help elect Dubya to the White House ... TWICE. They owe me one! If they actually come to their senses and vote for Obama, I might consider forgiving my state. LOL

[Petrushka]

125. Oh, yes. By all means, Fox News oughta do it . . . especially if those good folks're reminded

how Rockefeller & Rahall already endorsed Obama. Oh, yes . . . and . . . mustn't forget that those mountaintop removal sites are in Rahall's congressional district, right? And . . . and . . . was Rockefeller the Guv when MTR came into its own?

:shrug:

(Or do I, due to old age, disremember more than I care to know?)

[Oilwellian]

103. Check out this pic of Hillary in the committee hearing

Apparently one of the Backstreet Boys, Kevin Richardson has adopted this cause and is seen testifying about mountain top removal.
http://www.ohvec.org/newsletters/enotes_2002_06/index.html

[williesgirl]

104. And this is a surprise? She's no different than * when it comes to corps over people. rec'd

[ElsewheresDaughter]

105. yapyapyap Hillary's an agent of Satan yapyapyap agent of Satan yapyap Hillary......

[Drachasor]

119. Do you want to close your eyes, cover your ears, and start yelling?

This is a serious issue, and your attitude isn't helping. I'd expect Hillary supporters to either try to defend her or admit her mistake. You refuse to even air a serious opinion on a serious issue.

[Shae]

145. Finally ...

An intelligent response from a Clinton supporter.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

106. yapyapyap Hillary's an agent of Satan yapyapyap agent of Satan yapyap Hillary......

.

[ima_sinnic]

129. just another clueless, selfish me-firster who could give a shit about the environment

or about anything else not relevant to his own corporate bottom line or wealthy-person wallet. Watch out, rich person! Better add a few more locks to your mcmansion, and put a guard on your vacation home and yacht, because the way the economy and climate change are going, the "riff raff" is soon going to be out looking for people like you who have too much.

[VotesForWomen]

116. clue: the only people who are against mining are the ones who have nothing to do with it. i can gua

guarantee you that the majority of west virginians support the mining industry there. it's called jobs.

[backscatter712]

121. Funny, mountaintop removal mining destroys jobs as well as the environment.

Maybe if the mining companies went for less destructive mining methods...

[Oilwellian]

136. It's obvious you haven't studied the issue

Mountain top removal has CUT jobs and increased poverty. You should ask yourself why states like Kentucky & West Virginia with the rich natural resource of coal, are two states with high levels of poverty. The number of coal mining jobs have decreased dramatically since MTR came to being...that's why they do it, it's faster, takes less labor, and the environmental damage has been devastating.

[boppers]

123. Kicked for policy differences.

I'd really like to see a "green" debate between these two candidates. Enough with Iraq debates and jobs debates, how about a freakin' "our planet" debate?

[Khaotic]

124. Excellent Post

K&R

:kick:

[psychopomp]

130. Glad to hear that Sen. Obama is on the right side of this issue

I do not agree with Sen. Obama on everything but it is good to know he stands up for many of the right things.

[chocome]

131. Swiftboating Hillary with false data! Your Numbers are wrong! !

Why do you all trust info from dailykos, because its obama land and facts are of no interest to you ?

According to U.S Dep of Labor, the number of employees at coal mines have been quite stedy for the last 10 years.

In 1996 there were 56,905 employees in underground mines and 45,631 in suface mines

In 2006 there were 43,015 employees in underground mines and 43,015 in surface mines

And if you take into account all levels of production, there were 122 975 employees total in 2006, in 1996 there were 126,451

http://www.msha.gov/STATS/PART50/WQ/1978/wq78cl03.asp
http://www.msha.gov/STATS/PART50/WQ/1978/wq78cl02.asp

Underground mine production in 1996 was 410,577,156 tonns, and 654,810,661 tonns for surface mines

Underground mine production in 2006 was 359,344,662 tonns, and 805,231,461 tonns for surface mines

----------------

And while we are at it..why should US stop mining when china and russia does not ? We only increase our dependence on Oil, and ship our workers abroad.

But hey, we pogressives praise Obama as our saviour and fuck the facts.

[Dems Will Win]

135. Most ridiculous post of this thread

Why stop coal mining? Ever hear of GLOBAL WARMING?

[faithfull]

139. The job graph in the post is only for WV

So, you both have correct numbers.

[Oilwellian]

140. Your post is ridiculous

and proves you don't even know what the issues are regarding MTR. You post numbers on UNDERGROUND mining...we're discussing mountain top removal which is ABOVE GROUND mining. In fact, thanks for proving that underground mining employment has stayed steady. MTR on the other hand has DECREASED employment. May I suggest you look at this graphic and note the poverty rates near the MTR sites.

[MyNameGoesHere]

142. That's great! And i am trying to find the bill that he introduced to ban

"strip mining" and i cannot seem to find it. Perhaps you know what it is? Or is it just some more "words"?

[lonestarnot]

143. Obama Obama Obama

:)

[Dems Will Win]

144. Also Bill Clinton has received $131 million from Giustra the big miner

$131 million for CGI and the Library. Not a typo. $131 million.

Explains Hillary's stand on MTR.

[Freddie Stubbs]

146. Until Robert Byrd dies, there will be no serious legislation affecting Mountain Top Removal

[Dems Will Win]

147. Maybe. But if we put incredible pressure on him, perhaps he'll go soft in his old age.

[cseper]

148. Seems to me, like a reasonable approach...

...to a complex problem. One might say a presidential approach!

[Sean Stuart]

151. To what "approach" are you referring? Not doing anything about it?

[cascadiance]

153. We should be calling RFK, Jr.'s office on this to see if he might change his Hillary endorsement...

I'm sure that he's wanting to do better things as the newer senator for New York, which would have that way get paved for him were she to become president.

But RFK, Jr. is VERY concerned about the environmental damage caused by coal mining to nearby water resources, and I think if someone sufficiently publicly challenges him on why he would support Hillary in light of comparing her stance with Obama's now on mountain top removal, he might get pressured into moving to Obama. Obama's support of liquified coal lobby in the past might have kept him from joining Obama's campaign as well...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5160397&mesg_id=5162768

[Tatiana]

154. KICK

:kick: