WHY OBAMA'S CAMPAIGN DOESN'T SUPPORT THE **PROPOSED** MI DO-OVER (protecting Dem voters)

[Zhade]

Per another pro-clinton thread that doesn't reveal the whole story...

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/19/78321...

The Obama Campaign's Argument on Michigan

From NBC's Mark Murray

The Obama campaign just released a memo from top lawyer Bob Bauer, which contains concerns about the re-vote plan in Michigan -- the chief one being that Republicans, independents, and even Democrats who voted in the January 15 GOP primary would be disqualified from participating in the do-over.

Bauer writes, "Since any Republican or independent who did not vote in January in the Republican primary is fully free to participate in the June primary, the effect of the proposal is to enfranchise a class of Republicans while disenfranchising a class of Democrats—the ones who chose to vote in the Republican primary when they correctly understood that the Democratic contest was meaningless."

I just wanted to point this out, because it's being left out of the "blame Obama" posts on the subject. It seems, to me, that those Dems who voted for the "best of the worst" in the GOP primary to swing it (much as the reverse happened to raise clinton's numbers in some states) deserve to have THEIR votes count if everyone else's count.

[democrattotheend]

1. That's a very valid argument

I thought maybe they were just stalling, and they might be, but this is a valid concern. I have a coworker who voted in the GOP primary because he thought the Democratic primary would not count. He will be pissed if he does not get to vote again.

On the other hand, if you don't exclude people who voted in the Republican primary, you could have another Limbaugh effect.

Does Michigan have party registration but allow crossover voting, or is there no such thing as party registration?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

15. Lawmakers concerned that election would look "bought" and influenced

Hillary went to Michigan to try to influence lawmakers,
her supporters tried to influence lawmakers,
her supporters tried to get private people/groups to "pay for election"

It has all the trappings of yet another "soviet style" election.

[mythyc]

52. i agree. too complicated and nuanced for msm soundbite consumption... k&r

[dragonlady]

58. No party registration

Michigan has an open primary where anybody can vote on any one party's candidates.

[BeatleBoot]

2. What a Cop-Out

Only 4% of Michigan Dems voted on Jan 15th

[LisaM]

4. Great point

Anyone who crossed over is not a real Democrat, in my book, anyway.

[BeatleBoot]

8. You should talk to DailyKOS about that one.

Because he was telling Michigan Dems to cross over and vote for Romney in order to prolong the Republican primary.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

11. Hillary Lied: Do Over Dead. Votes in Legislature "Aren't There"

Ding-Dong, Do-Over Primary Is Dead

"Time of death for the do-over Michigan primary? Call it at about 11 a.m. today."

A Lansing insider IMs to explain the latest development:

The Senate Dems just had a long caucus meeting following their long phone call with the Gang of Four , and the result is that no one moved. Votes aren't there. Thus, it will not go to a vote in the Senate. And barring some other last minute miracle that doesn't involve those four, the governor and Hillary traveling to Michigan, it is dead as a doornail.

UPDATE: State Sen. Tupac Hunter, an Obama supporter, confirms the outcome of today's meeting.

"The caucus has expressed again today that there is concern about the proposal and a great deal of unreadiness," he said, saying that sentiment is still "overwhelming."

"We informed the four great Democrats who have worked very hard to come up with a solution," he said.
"It’s one of those things where you can agree to disagree. The question then becomes, What do we do now?"

link

[Zhade]

28. Of course she lied. She's used to it.

It's easy.

[depakid]

13. Well, if they did- I guess that's too bad

They had their choice- and they voted.

I recall how some Texas Republicans expressed dismay that they couldn't vote for their favorite knuckledragger 'cause they chose a Democratic ballot...

:rofl:

[BeatleBoot]

17. Exactly.

http://republicansforobama.org/?q=node/359


E-mail to send to Texas Republicans


Attention All Texas Republicans and Independents!!

On March 4th, Texas Republicans and Independents will have an opportunity to end Hillary Clinton's (and Bill's) presidential ambitions once and for all!

Since Texas has on open primary, Republicans and Independents should sign in at their polling place and request a Democratic ballot. They should then vote for Barack Obama. Even James Carville admits that if Hillary loses Texas, "she's done!" Republicans can help make this a reality!!! Just think, no more Clintons in the White House!

Voting Democratic this one time will have NO effect on your ability to vote in the next Republican primary or obviously on your vote in November. Since John McCain has the Republican nomination locked up, voting for McCain or Huckabee at this point will have no effect on the outcome on the Republican side.

After you vote during early voting or on March 4th, you ARE NOT done! Report back to your regular polling place at 7PM on March 4th to sign the Barack Obama list for caucus delegates. In a little known Texas voting quirk, 67 delegates to the Democratic convention will be seated because of these caucuses. This is a full one-third of the total number of Texas delegates. For Hillary to lose, she has to lose the primary votes AND the caucus votes.

I urge you to vote against Hillary Clinton by voting for Barack Obama. Please forward this e-mail to all your Texas Republican and Independent friends so that we can help ensure the Clinton's defeat on March 4th!!!

[LisaM]

19. It's not my problem if Kos is using Limbaugh-like tactics to influence his readers

It is unseemly to make mischief in someone else's primary. I don't condone it.

[Zhade]

29. I didn't hear you complain when Limbaugh got rightwingers to vote for Clinton.

Did you likewise oppose that, despite it helping clinton?

[LisaM]

54. Actually, I don't believe I commented on it either way

but for the record, I do not support that.

I don't really think it's been proven in either case that it's made a statistical difference, but the point I was making here was that I think any voter who's crossed party lines to vote in someone else's primary has abrogated her or his own right to vote in another contest.

[mckeown1128]

51. Umm. exit polling shows... that 1/3rd of those who voted...

in the republican primary in MI were democrats.... that sounds like an awful lot of people to me.

[dansolo]

3. I can't sympathize

I don't care that these voters felt that their votes wouldn't count. Voting in the other party's primary in order to prop up a desired opponent is unseemly, and if these voters chose to vote in the Republican primary, then I have very little sympathy.

Hey, we don't like it when Rush Limbaugh convinces his listeners to vote in our primaries.

[MichiganVote]

5. The message delivered by the DNC was that Mich. delegates would not be seated--at all.

Not that the voters choices were meaningless. Clearly voters for any of the Dem's left on the ballot did not perceive their votes as meaningless or they would not have voted at all.

The solution proposed by the Obama camp has been to count all the votes for Clinton and all the Uncommitted votes and then to split them 50/50.

The effect being that in our family of four voters, 50% or two votes would not count. That's hardly meaningful either.

All the DNC has to do is acknowledge they overshot the mark, and remove half the delegates as the Republicans did.

[Zhade]

30. In a race that excluded Obama's name? You're dreaming.

He followed the rules and took his name off, she didn't - it was hardly a legitimate election.

[MichiganVote]

39. There was no rule about taking the candidates names off the Mi ballot

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

43. "It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything," Clinton said

Florida & Michigan: The hypocrisy of Hillary Clinton's position

by mecarr, Tue Mar 11, 2008

"It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything," Clinton said

Clinton said Thursday during an interview on New Hampshire Public Radio's call-in program, "The Exchange."
"But I just personally did not want to set up a situation where the Republicans are going to be campaigning
between now and whenever, and then after the nomination, we have to go in and repair the damage to be
ready to win Michigan in 2008.

Nearly as hysterical as Hillary's position on Florida and Michigan is that of her top advisor, Harold Ickes.
As a member of the DNC, he voted to punish Florida and Michigan.
Recently he argued for seating the Florida and Michigan delegations.

...-At a breakfast sponsored by the Christian Science Monitor, the former Clinton White House aide and consultant
to Hillary Clinton’s campaign noted that as a member of the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, he voted last year
to strip the two states of their delegates as punishment for moving their primaries up too early on the calendar.
He said the move was designed "to prevent the gaming of the system."

Now that Senator Clinton has won those states, however, he supports seating the delegates.
"When I voted on the Rules and Bylaws Committee, I did that as a member of the Rules and Bylaws Committee,
not as a member of the Hillary Clinton campaign," he explained.

...

[MichiganVote]

48. Its not about Clinton. It was never about Clinton. Its about Michigan.

[thoughtcrime1984]

53. And it's about the breaching of DNC rules by your state's elected

officials, who knew what the consequences of their actions would be. It is unfortunate that they have ruined this primary season for Michigan.

[MichiganVote]

55. Actually the rules do not specify that all delegates be refused

[housewolf]

6. In other words, it's an open invitation for Limbaugh listeners/voters

who didn't vote in Jan to come on out and vote for Hillary, it sounds like.

[Zhade]

7. That's certainly one possible outcome, as we've seen after McLame's nom clinch.

NT!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

9. THE FACT IS THE MICHIGAN STATE SENATE VOTED AGAINST DO OVER

also, the elections officials said that a do over would harm the integrity
of implimenting already planned elections properly.

Obama didn't decide.

Hillary lied to the public, Obama couldn't overturn the Michigan State Senate.

Heard on Olberman tonight.

[greyghost]

10. They don't want the facts to get in the way of a good photo op/sound bite.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

12. LEGISLATURE: "Votes Aren't There"

Read it and weep:

Ding-Dong, Do-Over Primary Is Dead

"Time of death for the do-over Michigan primary? Call it at about 11 a.m. today."

A Lansing insider IMs to explain the latest development:

The Senate Dems just had a long caucus meeting following their long phone call with the Gang of Four , and the result is that no one moved. Votes aren't there. Thus, it will not go to a vote in the Senate. And barring some other last minute miracle that doesn't involve those four, the governor and Hillary traveling to Michigan, it is dead as a doornail.

UPDATE: State Sen. Tupac Hunter, an Obama supporter, confirms the outcome of today's meeting.

"The caucus has expressed again today that there is concern about the proposal and a great deal of unreadiness,"
he said, saying that sentiment is still "overwhelming."

"We informed the four great Democrats who have worked very hard to come up with a solution," he said.
"It’s one of those things where you can agree to disagree. The question then becomes, What do we do now?"

link

[greyghost]

21. You're preaching to the choir. ;)

[MichiganVote]

41. No they didn't. Where are you getting this from? Do over legislation was in draft form only as late

as last week. DNC, DLC and the Hillary camp have been in favor of it, Obama camp doesn't.

[okasha]

14. Obama doesn't want the primary re-do

because he'll likely lose.

Simple.

[Cha]

16. It's not Obama call, hilary...get a

fucking clue.

[okasha]

25. Read the OP title--

WHY OBAMA'S CAMPAIGN DOESN'T SUPPORT the redo. . .

Do the big letters help?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

33. Title should read: "HILLARY CLINTON IS A FAKE ON ELECTIONS AND NAFTA

FAKE FAKE FAKE.

[okasha]

47. Are you on blood pressure meds?

All that hate can't be good for your arteries.

[greyghost]

20. The Michigan Senate decided THEY don't want a redo. Don't like

to let the facts get in the way?

[okasha]

26. See post # 25.

n/t

[greyghost]

38. Okay, but it's a moot point since it's not his call.

[Zhade]

31. Really? She only got 55% despite breaking the rules and leaving her name on the ballot.

I wouldn't be so sure.

[Blondiegrrl]

46. In Michigan? Not likely.

[ORDem]

18. CW says a re-vote benefits Hillary. It does not. She knows the re-vote

has no chance (in part because of these nonsensical rules). She's just trying to create FUD to make it look like she has some path to the nomination, which she does not.

:dem:

[greyghost]

23. She's being a TOTAL hypocrite, she agreed to it months ago.

[Splinter Cell]

36. Exactly

Nothing sums up this situation better then what you've just posted.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. what a crock

[tammywammy]

37. Well, since the Michigan State Senate said no to a redo primary

It's not really up to either of the candidates anyways.

[tokenlib]

56. That's what I said when I heard Hillary today...n/t

[Barack_America]

24. Why would you want to disenfranchise the most LOYAL Dems...

Who came out to vote even though their primary was "meaningless"?

That seems to me to be the stupidest thing the party could do.

Undoubtedly, disenfranchising these voters would HELP Obama in a redo election, considering they voted for Hillary in larger numbers than for "uncommitted". So I think that it says a lot that he's willing to stick up for them.

[Zhade]

32. *I* don't want anyone feeling they're disenfranchised (even though they're not)...

I'm just pointing out something that was missed in the discussions about why the Obama campaign appears not to support the do-over as proposed.

Either EVERYONE'S vote should count, or no one's.

[Barack_America]

35. Sorry, that was a rhetorical question.

I actually agree with you and am grateful that you brought this point up.

[Zhade]

40. Cool!

NT!

[MichiganVote]

45. While people are wasting time arguing all about this,, the Mi repub's are laughing

their asses off.

Can't you hear it...it goes like this,

Hi I'm John McCain and I'm glad to be here in the state the Democrats say doesn't count.

[RBInMaine]

27. Obama supports a FAIR and SANE do-over or other plan to seat them. Hillary is full of it !

[metalluk]

34. In addition to the lame objections,

the Obama campaign is using stalling and delay tactics in the hopes of running out the clock on any possibility of a Michigan re-do. They simply want to make sure that Clinton gets one less chance to gain ground or add to her big-state argument. They are willing to gamble on the Democrats losing Michigan in November in order to secure the nomination. The longer they hold out, the more they lock themselves into never agreeing to a re-do, because their lack of concern about disenfranchising the Michigan voters would become a campaign issue and would likely cut into support for Obama.

[Zhade]

42. Obama's campaign didn't make the MI lege go on a two-week hiatus.

Your complaint is noted, and dismissed.

[MichiganVote]

44. And the most important part...

the republicans in Michigan want to be able to laud it over him and all the other Dem's by saying that this is the state the DNC says doesn't count.

[crispini]

49. .

:kick: Good point!

[Scurrilous]

50. Kick

:kick:

[SKKY]

57. I believe Obama has said he will support WHATEVER the DNC comes up with...

...and he specifically mentioned new primaries and mail-in votes as possibilities. Obama isn't the roadblock in all this. I wish people would stop making it out as such. A better question is why Clinton wants the delegates seated when she was the only one on the ballot in one states, and the only one who campaigned in the other.