Why All Democrats Should Push For a Re-vote in Both FL and MI

[Texas Hill Country]

If you truly care about the democratic PARTY, and not just your little camp, there are essentially 2 reasons why we should all push for a re-vote in FL and MI.

1. This is a democracy and these are peoples VOTES. This is not a game of monopoly where we have to follow arbitrary rules. Voting is a basic right in this country and it is abominable that these people do not have a say. People will say, then why did everyone agree to this in the beginning... the reason why is that no one thought it made a difference because no one expected it to be even close. It is precisely because it is so close that counting their voices is absolutely ESSENTIAL.

2. If we dont allow FL and MI to be heard... two VERY populous states, we can 100% kiss FL goodbye, not only their votes, but large fundraisers for the party as well. This is a serious problem when we are talking about a massive state, both in terms of population/electoral votes and in terms of fundraising. Michigan will also very likely become a battleground state. Michigan is full of "Reagan Democrats" and staunch conservatives that will be more than happy to vote for someone like McCain. Hell, why should they vote democrat when the party tells them they cannot have a voice in one of the most historically important elections in our nations history?



Protect the right to vote, punish the politicians not the people.

[DemzRock]

1. Good points! n/t

[Fresh_Start]

2. I agree let the people vote and have the vote count

remove the superdelegates from these states and the DNC for their part is creating this disaster.

[Texas Hill Country]

5. I dont even think you need to remove the superdelegates, that punishes more than just the pols ...

that are responsible. Pull party support from them, or give them extraordinary party responsibilities or or or... there are better ways to punish them than to screw with the vote.

[Fresh_Start]

7. I think there needs to be consequences

the politicians in those states caused the problem....
if there is no consequence, then it will happen over and over again

Set the precedent, the peoples votes count: the politicians get to vote as regular voters only

[Texas Hill Country]

13. i say you attach extra service to the party or get party support pulled during your next election

put that on the politicians

dont mess with people's votes

[nonconformist]

3. Someone needs to give Obama the memo....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/19/clinton.michigan/index.html

[wileedog]

4. THe BEST thing for the party

is NO revote.

Do you understand what is going to happen in 4 years when states realize they can move their primaries or change their rules however they want and the DNC is powerless to do anything about it?

THere are rules for a reason. These two states were told repeatedly what would happen if they changed their primary, but they said "fuck you" and did it anyway.

If someone in MI or FL wants to protest not getting to vote in a primary by not voting in the GE, I'll leave you to ponder the fucking stupidity of that. In the meantime if you want to avoid going through this complete disaster over and over again every 4 years, shut it down.

[Texas Hill Country]

6. if the punish the POLITICIANS, trust me, no one is gonna F around.

and that is a BS argument.

[virtualobserver]

8. it's just about Hillary

not Florida or Michigan voters.

[Texas Hill Country]

15. no matter her motivations, in the end it is the best for the party and the best for democracy.

[wileedog]

10. Punishment for breaking the rules is a BS argument?

You not big into the whole "criminal justice system" thing either?

[Texas Hill Country]

14. as i said, these are VOTES, not monopoly

[1620rock]

18. God Forbid

Yes , God forbid that we should have counted the hanging chads, or conducted "gasp" re-counts or worse yet let the all of the peoples votes count.

[nonconformist]

11. You do realize that Republicans moved the Michigan primary, right?

The Democrats voted against it.

Republicans once again disenfranchising Democratic voters... except this time, with the help of Obama.

[Hawkeye-X]

21. How is Obama even involved?

Answer me that question... Only in your insane brain that you think Obama was involved. Apparently you didn't read the memo that Obama released yesterday about why he won't support a revote in Michigan. It's a reasonable and logical explanation, and even the MI Legislature couldn't even get it on the floor yesterday, so you decide to blame Obama for it.

[nonconformist]

23. My "insane brain" sees that Obama is fighting hard to stop a revote

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/19/clinton.michigan/index.html

Disenfranchising voters can never be explained away as "reasonable and logical". He argues he wasn't on the ballot, even though he had a GOTV push saying specifically that Obama = Uncommitted. Fair enough. But to now attempt to stop a revote, where he would be on the ballot? Millions of voters should not be heard? That's just crap, any way you slice it.

[Hawkeye-X]

28. So you use the Clinton hit piece instead of the Obama memo?

Here's the link for you to read...

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/in_new_memo_obama_camp_effecti.php#more

[nonconformist]

29. A Clinton hit piece? That's just an article from CNN

And I have read his memo, and I still disagree. Technicalities aside, you simply cannot ignore millions of voters.

[navarth]

22. excuse me?

The Democrats here in Mich. are just as guilty as the Repigs. Please, Clinton supporters, stop the bullshit.

You breaka da rules, you pay da penalty.

I don't feel disenfranchised. I'll be able to vote in the GE.

My candidates are out of it (Kucinich, Edwards, Dodd, Gore) so I haven't got a dog in this fight....except that I'm getting discouraged by Clinton supporters with all the crazy shit getting posted.

This ain't the way to win fair. Or keep the party together.

my 2 cents

[nonconformist]

24. I'm from Michigan too, and the Democrats I know are seriously pissed over this

Are you denying that the Republican legislature voted to move the primary?

LANSING, Mich. — The state Senate passed a bill Wednesday setting up a Jan. 15 presidential primary, but Michigan Democrats continued to fight among themselves over whether to hold a primary or a caucus.

The bill passed 21-17, with all Republicans voting for it and all Democrats voting against.



Are you denying that Obama is fighting hard to stop a revote?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/19/clinton.michigan/index.html

[Texas Hill Country]

25. I am originally from MI, and my family up there is SUPER pissed too, as are their friends

do they blame the state reps, yes, but they also blame obama and the DNC... bigtime.

[navarth]

27. denying?

all I'm saying is that both parties are guilty. Clinton wants the vote to be counted because she won. Not fair. Only other one on the ballot was Kucinich. Obama, I assume, wants to stop it because it's not to his advantage..perhaps.

I'm just tired of all the throwing rocks at each other. You think Clinton is our best bet. I think Obama is at this point, since Edwards, Dodd and Kucinich are out. Maybe Obama would have made the same fucked up votes that Clinton did if he had been there at the time? I can't say. But Clinton definitely did make those votes. And the nasty shit I see here from Clinton supporters has turned me off. Same for the Obama supporters, but not to the same degree.

I'm tired of the sniping. I'm not your enemy. McCain and the Repigs are.

Hey send me a real link about how the Repigs did it and all Demos voted against doing it, I'll read it. But so far I ain't buying it.

And I still wonder where we would be today if John Edwards had been on the Michigan ballot.

Oh and BTW....NONE of the people I know are as pissed off as the folks you're referring to. I'm just sayin'.

[nonconformist]

30. Dodd and Gravel were on the ballot, too.

I was a strong Edwards supporter as well.

I think it helps to remember that we're all supposed to be on the same side here.

My family are staunch Democrats who are (and have been, in the past) intimately involved in local politics. I just know what I hear from them and from friends. And what I hear is a lot of anger and resentment over this entire mess. And believe it or not, they're not all for Clinton, either. They're mad because Michigan is on it's knees and yet there are people in our own party that want to make their voices irrelevant.

I just want them seated - be it as-is, with a revote, or with some other sort of compromise. I honestly don't even give a fuck which candidate it benefits at this point - the voters should be heard.

Here's a link...
http://blog.mlive.com/kzgazette/2007/08/state_senate_votes_to_move_up.html

[navarth]

31. fairly spoken. and thanks for the link.

The only thing I disagree with in your last reply is seating them as-is. There's no way in the world that could be fair.

Let the voters be heard! Sure. But not as-is. And again, there have to be consequences when the rules are broken in this way.

The link you supplied supports the claim that Repubs caused it. I didn't know about this! Very interesting. I had the firm impression that the Democrats all voted for it too. Could the media be lying? NAH....

[GarbagemanLB]

9. Ah yes, Clinton is doing this out of love of democracy. What a truly genuine and honest person.

:rofl: :rofl:

[Texas Hill Country]

12. it doesnt matter. whatever her motivations, it is the right thing to do for the party. period.

[flor de jasmim]

16. Who would you allow to vote??

Would you allow Republicans who wanted to do a cross-over vote (either genuinely wishing to vote Democratic or wanting to make mischief)?
Would you allow Democrats who have already voted in the Republican primary because they were told their vote would not count?
How would you account for MILITARY, OVERSEAS and other absentee voters to vote?
Who would pay? Would you allow for Clinton friends/sponsors to pay (because they are offering), or add to the already heavy tax burden that the States have?

(this was to have been posted about 10 minutes ago, so perhaps it's out of date)

[Texas Hill Country]

17. I think the most agreeable way maybe leave it to registered dems, and allow for expat/military votes

and whoever wants to pay for it... pay for it.

[JimGinPA]

19. Maybe They Should Just Let Hillary Supporters Voter!

:eyes:

[1620rock]

20. Fair enough since Obama does not want a re-count.

[Kittycat]

26. I am 100% for a revote, but insist on the following...

The rules of the original primary should be applied.

IE. If it's an open primary, then indies & pukes should get to vote. However - I DO NOT think if they voted in the puke primary that they should get to vote in the Dem one. I'm sorry, I know this might impact some of my fellow Obama Fans, but this is what happens when you try to play with your vote. I take voting very seriously, and just disagree strongly with crossing over to sway votes or stack the deck.

I also think the that Supers involved should have their votes stripped completely. They're the real ones to blame, not the voters.