How pathetic! Southern Democrats are afraid of Dean.

[madfloridian]

Reading the quotes here makes me sick. He has been speaking quite well for Kerry. I think this Democratic party has too many problems to win. I really do. How sad. Actually I know he would draw a big crowd here, and a lot of places in the South. I think it is the party itself being too cautious and afraid to offend.

http://www.thehill.com/news/050504/dean.aspx

Dean to barnstorm through Deep South
Democrats in Dixie fear former gov’s liberal contagion
By Alexander Bolton

I am not even going to post snips, as the whole article is just offensive. I believe this is a defining moment for our party, and it makes me very afraid. I know they have written off Florida already.

So, here we go, afraid to confront issues. Afraid to breathe. Moving way to the right to not offend.

[madfloridian]

1. I donated to this "cash-strapped" Morrison running against DeLay.

If he is ashamed for Dean to come there, yet is willing to take donations.....then I think I am ashamed to donate. I will request my donation back.

Wilcox is the one who sends out the TX Dems newsletter. These guys had the courage to stand up and fight the redistricting. I donate to them.

I am fed up with scaredy-cat Democrats. This is really too bad. I am writing Morrison tonight. Fed up.

[drfemoe]

153. Bring me to the dance ..

and then GET LOST!! Gawd .. no wonder Democrats are in a world of hurt.
Shameful.

[Foswia]

159. What?

Don't. Use Morrison as a pawn to tie up Delay's people. Then real liberals can win. Give money to anyone who can distract Delay. House Democarts can't do anything b/c of Delay, he IS the house Republican party (Look what he did to Hassert when Hassert tried to work w/ Dems)

[KoKo]

2. Afraid to "breathe" because US Media sucks our breath. Afraid to

breathe, because we were told to hold our lungs in "inhale mode."

Oh...the hypocracy...if we follow the Repugs we will WIN! yeah...right..oh so "right."

[madfloridian]

24. Yep, doing what we are told.

Dean has not bowed before the media. He took ownership of his scream, and he received huge applause at the WH Press Corps dinner. That is a great compliment.

They are so afraid of the media. Yes, you are right. Dean no longer is afraid, and that makes a difference.

[salonghorn70]

3. Dean Will Be A Disaster If He Comes To Texas

He will absolutely destroy any possibility Morrison might have. San Antonio is a strong Democratic city. If he came here he would be a drag on all local candidates. Mr Dean, please campaign someplace else.

[madfloridian]

4. That is hogwash! He drew thousands in Dallas.

I know there is support there, and I think you are all being perfectly insane about this. I have kids in TX, and I know the tide is turning there. Stop being so afraid.

If that is the way it is, I can almost guarantee disaster for our scaredy cat party.

Shame on you Texans and on Breaux in LA.

[corporatewhore]

18. Dean had lots of supporters in austin

[madfloridian]

22. I know. A lot.

My kids are in TX, and they say a lot of people liked Dean. Even some Republicans who don't like Kerry. This whole thing is just silly. I expect my money back from Mr. Morrison.

[sangh0]

65. Delay is outside of Houston

Supporters in Dallas and other places won't be able to vote for Morrison, no matter how much they like Dean.

And witholding money over your pique is truly a sorry way to show your disagreement. Did you give the money to help Morrison, or did you do it to show your love for Dean?

I can only assume that Dean thinks Morrison's election would be a good thing. Why else would Dean campaign for him? And if he's a good choice, then we should support him, even if he doesn't swoon over Dean

[madfloridian]

80. I gather you read my other post by now.

Actually there is a great pic at Morrison's site of his introduction of Dean last year to over 2000 people. He answered, he responded, and I am satisfied.

Contrary to your beliefs, I am not a fool. Withholding money is a most effective way to get attention. Oh yes, it is.

I do notice that you have a very low opinion of me, and I want you to know that it is fine with me. I like my attitude much better. I will continue to speak out when candidates need to stand up for things.

Morrison did, I am happy, and I will donate more.

[sangh0]

88. I disagree

My opinions are accurate, and they've been confirmed by how mistaken you were

1) about Morrison
2) about the accuracy of the story
3) about the DNC's position on Dean going there
4) about Dean "working for" Kerry

[drfemoe]

155. n/m

n/m

[Fleshdancer]

128. Yep, thousands in Dallas and Austin AND San Antonio

This Texan is one of the MANY who supported Dean and the idea that Democrats down here are scared of him is absolutely insane.

[drfemoe]

154. He has (had) TONS of supporters

in Houston too .. which IS part of district 22.

http://tomdelay.house.gov/District/District%20Map.htm

[mrgorth]

56. That's an oxymoron

if he'd get killed there it is NOT a strong democratic city.

[WI_DEM]

58. Dean came in third in the Texas Primary with 40,038 votes

only Kerry who won and Edwards came ahead of him and Edward with 12%. Dean got 5% of the vote in Texas after he dropped out of the race and did better than DK, Sharpton, and others who were still on the ballot but out of the race such as Lieberman and Gen. Clark.

Additionally, Dean's visits to Texas in 2003 were well received, for instance, he drew several thousand in Austin and Houston. A Dean visit wouldn't be a drag on democrats--as most people on DU know and realize Dean is not some radical and emphasized such things as balancing the budget as a candidate. He happens to be outspokenly against the war--a war more and more people are opposing these days. I'm sure Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, who was one of his strongest congressional supporters wouldn't mind him campaigning for her.

Kerry is going to need all the help he can get and you would think the Kerry supporters would be appreciative of what Dean is doing.

[seaglass]

59. If Dean is visiting the 22nd district to help the candidate

running against Delay and that candidate doesn't think it's a good idea, what is there to be appreciative about?

[madfloridian]

61. The candidate is acting like a wimp.

He is afraid to act different from DeLay. I have checked into this more. Dean is quite popular in TX, and Morrison is just acting chicken.

[sangh0]

66. So then, why is Dean supporting Morrison?

If Morrison is a "wimp", then why does Dean support him?

[cosmik debris]

71. have you run out of analogies?

You keep tossing around that "fear" thing like it still made sense. We walk on the sidewalk rather than the middle of the street because it increases our chances of reaching our destination. You call it "fear" we call it good sense. We obviously draw a different line between courage and foolishness.

And as for "quite popular in TX" Yes, I admit 5% is quite popular. Why Heck! it's almost a tenth of a majority. That's impressive.

You are still left with only two choices: Support DeLay's opponent or don't support DeLay's opponent. Whining and complaining falls into the latter category and is not constructive. Did you ever consider that you are doing to Morrison what Nader did to Gore? Is that your objective?

[madfloridian]

78. No, there is a 3rd choice.

Pointing out when candidates need to take stand. Pushing them to stand for something. Morrison was on the ball here, and he spoke out first thing today with a reminder that Dean drew over 2000 in Houston last year. He did it well.

That is the 3rd choice. I am very tired of being told that I only have two choices. I have many more.

I will continue to do so, to ask that candidates speak out for what they believe.

I was wrong about Morrison, but I did not know it until he spoke out. If he had not responded so quickly, I would not have known that he was the one who introduced Dean in Houston. See, it made a difference that he spoke out.

You are truly upset because I questioned the attitude of the party. Could it be some of us are tweaking consciences? Otherwise why would it bother you so. I have repeatedly said we will vote for Kerry.

[sangh0]

81. So why is Dean supporting Morrison then?

I can't believe a DUer is arguing that defeating DeLay would be a Bad Thing.

:crazy:

I was wrong about Morrison, but I did not know it until he spoke out. If he had not responded so quickly, I would not have known that he was the one who introduced Dean in Houston. See, it made a difference that he spoke out.

It wouldn't have made any difference if you weren't so quick to believe what you read merely because it "confirms" your prejudices concerning the Democratic Party.

You are truly upset ...

THis thread makes it obvious that YOU are the one who has gotten upset, and over nothing, to boot

[madfloridian]

84. You win. I am worn out. I declare you the winner.

:hi:

[sangh0]

85. Why is Dean supporting Morrison?

It's a simple question.

Dean is fighting to change the party, so why is he helping a coward?

[cosmik debris]

91. No third choice

On election day Mr. Morrison will be on the ballot, Mr. Delay will be on the ballot and there may be an independent on the ballot, but "Pushing them to stand for something" will not be on the ballot. You sound more and more like Nader all the time.

Mr. Morrison already stands for something, but you haven't figured out what it is yet so you whine. Sour Grapes.

[madfloridian]

92. That is the option now, NOT on election day...before it.

Many of us intend to use that 3rd option.

I think you are trying to get me angry, but it is not working. It just makes me more determined.

Nader is not the only one demanding people stand up for what they believe. Nader was not my candidate. I think you can tell that by my avatar.

[Jim Sagle]

82. Chickenshit bullshit.

[drfemoe]

152. San Antonio?

Is not part of district 22. Which state are you in?

[madfloridian]

5. Morrison wants the money of Dean supporters, but he is ashamed of Dean.

This is getting totally out of control. Dean was right when he said you do NOT compromise with this right wing. They will tear you up.
You stand up to them, not try to play nice.

I wrote Morrison that I would expect a check back.

If the party stands for nothing except to keep the GOP happy, then by golly it will lose.....and deservedly so.

[Thrill]

6. Who has wriitten off FL?

[madfloridian]

7. The Democratic Party, except for a few areas.

Sorry, but we see it here a lot. We feel it, we sense it.

[AP]

11. Gore didn't write off FL in 2000.

If he had, he might have won though.

[madfloridian]

14. So, write us off,ok? Takes a lot of the burden off. Ok?

Write us off. Now, let's see, Kerry is polling even with Bush here....so write us off...ok?

[AP]

25. I'm making a joke, ok.

Of course the Dems shouldn't write off FL. But if it's close in the last two weeks, I wouldn't spend all my time there unless there are no combinations of other close states which would deliver a victory. OK?

[madfloridian]

27. They do not intend to make FL that important. A shame.

A lot of people are angry at Bush now, Jeb and George. We here are not stupid, and we see how our state is being economically destroyed. Not all do, but enough to start speaking to.

[AP]

31. Unless they think they can get it out of the margin of theft, I'm not sure

if it's wise to dump too much time and resources into it relative to a state where they aren't going to be within the margin of theft.

On the bright side, I'm sure FL will get more attention than CA, NY, RI, MA, and a few other states.

[sangh0]

67. That's just not true

The Dem party is VERY active in Florida. Several of my relatives are working for them in Florida.

[AP]

75. Are you talking to me or to the Floridian who claims that the Dems

aren't workin in FL?

[madfloridian]

76. The Democratic party *people* are working hard in Florida.

It is the *party* leaders statewide and countywide who are backing down on us. Our DEC chair refused to sign a petition card for our candidate, even though they like him. Quite a few of the local party refused to sign the petition cards. We still got 20% more than we needed because we worked.

It is the party leadership who are falling down on the job. Why? They need favors and back-slaps from the GOP incumbents. They are all in it together.

We, the people, are working hard here. It is our leaders who are afraid, and who tend to be afraid to speak up.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

108. Are you psychic?

How do you know she is making stuff up. Heck the Florida party leadership was begging to keep their jobs after the last time they lost to Jeb. I suspect she is right. Unfortunately the rank and file were compassionate.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

117. Do you live where she lives?

? Unless you do, you can't accuse her of making stuff up.

[sangh0]

123. Do you know where I live?

Do you know where my family lives?

And if you think I'm doing something against the rules, hit the alert. Otherwise, keep your rules on your own board.

[Classical_Liberal]

125. What state do you live in?

?

[sangh0]

133. I guess that mean "No"

.

[RetroLounge]

164. Apparently ALERT wroked very well on both your posts.

Thanks for the advice...

RL

[Foswia]

160. Dean understands poltics. I only wish his supporters would!

Look at Dean's record as gov. His actions were more like "compromise w/ fascists." He was ashamed of the Civil Unions signing!

Dean, like Morrison, understands poltics. I only wish his supporters would

[cosmik debris]

8. Good Grief!

Remember that most of the people who had a chance to vote for Dean voted for someone else. You may think that he is God's gift, but in fact he can't draw a majority anywhere but his home state. Why should Morrison fight Dean's battles? If Dean and his followers want to serve, it is time to get off their high horse and get on the band wagon. Dean was the LOSER, Kerry was the WINNER. Stop acting like it was the other way around.

[Sean Reynolds]

9. Then why should he accept Dean's money?

If Dean's such a hack, why should ANY of these candidates want his money and his supporters?

[sangh0]

68. Stupid question

Gee, you can't figure out why a POLITICIAN would want MONEY and VOTES from Dean (or anyone else)?

[madfloridian]

10. Excuse me, but Dean is out of the race. He is working for Kerry.

And also for his organization. I find your post rather strange, but I doubt you have seen that I usually don't post things to insult others.

Actually, Iowa has chosen our nominee. One state. As Dean said, if CA had been the first primary it would have been quite different.

If the candidates want our money, which many are getting....they should welcome whomever Kerry sends their way. Dean people donate to a lot of local candidates.

Morrison sounds afraid to stand up for progressive values. DeLay will not back down, and being nice won't work.

Your post is trying to hurt me, but it does not. It makes us more determined that the party has to quit being wimps.

[sangh0]

69. Again, not true. Dean doesn't work for Kerry.

Dean SUPPORTS Kerry, but he doesn't work for Kerry.

Actually, Iowa has chosen our nominee

Can't you ever resist hyperbole? Millions of Democratic voters went for Kerry. It even looks lke millions of Dean's supporters went for Kerry.

they should welcome whomever Kerry sends their way

The article clearly says that Dean isn't being sent by Kerry.

[madfloridian]

83. Actually, Dean does support Kerry. You again *misunderstood* me.

Dean's support of Morrison is not tied to Kerry, of course not.

This does not sound very clear to me:
From the article:
SNIP..."“I couldn’t imagine that he was sent by Kerry,” Sabato added.

Kerry’s campaign declined to comment...."

That is not very clear to me. Yes, Dean is campaigning for Kerry in some areas. That is true. Some of his Southern appearances are for his own benefit, like the one at Tulane, and a few others.

I wish you would not find that you need to respond to each of my posts in such an angry way. I worry that you feel it necessary.

[sangh0]

87. You said Dean "is working for Kerry"

Not "Dean is SUPPORTING Kerry". That's what *I* said. Too bad you can't even acknowledge the simplest of your mistakes.

Dean's support of Morrison is not tied to Kerry, of course not.

Then why did you claim that Kerry sent Dean down South?

[Demoin04]

12. This is subliminal "scaredy cat" mentality

At first I thought you weren't saying anything really, but then I read it a different way.
You're telling people to abandon what they believe in and do anything to "win." That it's time to stop giving Dean attention. No I believe you are wrong in thinking this is about simple winners and losers. The struggle is more than just this nomination it's for the legitimacy and strength this party had once. We as a nation lost, when we conceded the power of the government to the Republicans. No matter how far right the Republicans go there will be flighty democrats adjusting their stance so that they are still two steps to the left. Howard Dean is an excellent speaker and has an ability to excite, the only time you'll see fears of being liberal is when it's in an editorial. Why? because it's easy, the story is being repeated over and over. The media keeps inundating the same dry message because it can. There hasn't been any substantial or responsible reporting in anything related to the general election in a long time. The tune is getting played out, it ends up these so called super "liberals" aren't that liberal, and more importantly are educated, experienced, and insightful, with real messages to give. Why don't you listen and then decide where you stand. Rather than read some sloppy played out piece, do some investigating into something legitimate other than opinion articles and see what you think. I'm not saying you'll join ranks with deaniacs etc, but you'll be a better educated voter for it, and we'll all be better off.

[madfloridian]

16. Excellent post you just made, Demoin04.

This part is so true.
SNIP..."We as a nation lost, when we conceded the power of the government to the Republicans. No matter how far right the Republicans go there will be flighty democrats adjusting their stance so that they are still two steps to the left.

This is true:Howard Dean is an excellent speaker and has the ability to excite"

[Demoin04]

19. Here's a good quote from Politicub

This was in regard to an editorial on Pat Tillman in the editorial forum. But it's so true here

Quote"You must challenge yourself.

It's very easy to jump to conclusions or race to embrace a stereotype. It's harder to collect information, reflect on it and develop a more informed opinion.
"

[sangh0]

89. It turns out to be a very relevant quote

since it turns out that the article is untrue, I have to wonder why you only posted the quote, but failed to heed it. Instead, you jumped to the conclusion that the Texas Dems are afraid because of a story that isn't true. I'll repeat:

It's very easy to jump to conclusions or race to embrace a stereotype. It's harder to collect information, reflect on it and develop a more informed opinion.

[Demoin04]

106. This could keep going on and on.. and I could say it back to you

My comment was directly responding towards a sub-post("good grief" by cosmik debris), as you can clearly see from this thread's posting tree. I was making a remark based on cosmik's post. So I guess the quote can be used in turn, back on you, but I feel this is just a simple misunderstanding, not a "jump" or "race". I was implying that Cosmik's message, that we should abandon "losers", get in line and shut up (to simplify), was in a way "scaredy cat" mentality. If we were all to abandon something we believe in in order to join the supposed majority then we are simply running scared, afraid to stand up to something we might believe in. Perhaps cosmik's post was a bit simple for that analysis, and maybe it was indeed he thought Dean was still in the running.. but I gave him/her the benefit of the doubt anyway.
Cheers

[sangh0]

110. Nice rationalization

but you entire complaint about how this article showed how scared Dems are turned out to be untrue.

But you're still 100% right. You were wrong, but you're still 100% right.

[cosmik debris]

112. I can accept your criticism

But I do not accept the verb Abandon. I prefer the verb compromise. I disagree with Mr. Kerry's stand on the war, but I will compromise my views for the unity of the party. Or, as I said in another post "Pragmatism trumps dogmatism"

But I strongly object to the implication that people who disagree with you are afraid of you. You do not threaten me or the Democratic Party, although you might embarrass all of us with strident criticism of loyal Democrats.

[drfemoe]

157. where is the proof

that the article is "untrue"? It contains quotes from a "spokesman". Did The Hill writer make that up? Has The Hill printed a retraction? MF is probably not the only "Dean supporter" who asked for their donation to be refunded. So Morrison puts up a blurb on his website claiming The Hill "tried to create a controversy". Where is HIS proof of that statement? If The Hill is QUOTING "spokesman", where is their culpability?

[madfloridian]

13. He spoke at Tulane recently, had a huge huge crowd.

Walked in to a standing ovation. I have heard various figures, but the latest is several thousand. In the South, at Tulane. Yes, it is true. I have the article if you don't believe me. I think they have upped the crowd numbers since then.

This is just all so silly.

[HFishbine]

107. Remember

Most of the people who had a chance to vote for John Kerry voted for somebody else too.

[cosmik debris]

120. Very good point, but Kerry won in in TX

In Texas, the state in question, Dean only got 5% of the vote. He may be a winner elsewhere, but he is a loser in Texas.

[HFishbine]

130. True enough

Texas was indeed one of the few states where Kerry garnered a majority of votes.

[dsc]

15. This is why the Stonewall Democrats

require the people they endorse to list that endorsement on any and all literature which lists endorsements. People need to stand up for us all the time not just when they want our money. The same should apply here.

[Adelante]

17. That's really rotten

I'm sorry to see this happen.

[madfloridian]

20. Dean has had huge crowds in the south.

That is what is so strange. I know he had several thousand the first time in Dallas, and more another time. The whole thing is ridiculous.

When he came to the convention, people carpooled and traveled from all over the state to see him. Not just Dean supporters either.

He and Clark were way ahead of the field here, and Kerry was an *.

I am just disgusted. Someone said he drew 5,000 at one college, but I just saw it as Kos. He is not even running and did that.

Oh, well. I know our local DEC chair asked him to come and speak. Haven't heard the answer yet.

[cosmik debris]

21. The way I see it

You have two choices: either support the Democratic nominee or not. But if you expect a democratic nominee to compromise his values and his chances of winning to pander to a faction of the party that gets only a minor percent of the vote in Texas, I would suspect that you are consumed with your own self-importance. Dean is not a winner in Texas, he is a liability. Just as Trent Lott would be a liability to a Republican candidate in Vermont. We in Texas are not afraid of Dean but we have seen the track record of northeastern liberals trying to carry southern states. It just doesn't work. And calling us "pathetic" doesn't help either.

[madfloridian]

23. No, you in TX are acting afraid of your shadows.

Dean is quite popular there, more so than many of the others.
You don't have a clue if you think Dean is liberal.
My son is a staunch Republican in the military defense industry in TX.....and he never misses a Dean speech on TV.

He respects him. He is disgusted with Bush.

[madfloridian]

26. Do not talk to me about my "self-importance."

That is demeaning to you, not to me. Yes, the Democrats are pathetic in many ways. Some are showing courage and speaking out. Then the media says "Boo!" or the GOP says "Boo!", and they back off and apologize.

[cosmik debris]

30. Reminds me of 1972

I was fighting the same old battle in 1972 for McGovern. Trying to move the Democratic party to the left to meet my expectations. Now I only want to get the Republicans out of office and I am glad to have an alternative. Even if it is imperfect.

You seem to be suffering from the same myopia (you call it courage)that the local Deaniacs suffer from. You see how popular Dean is, but you don't see how many people he pisses off. You look at his positives, but not his negatives. A Dean visit to most towns in Texas would cost twice as many votes as it gained.

Remember that the perfect is the enemy of the good. If you keep pressing for the perfect, you will end up with another 1972. Is that what you want?

[madfloridian]

33. I know, ignorant little me.

I do see how very many people respect him for his courage. Democrats and Republicans alike.

Frankly, I don't think the party can pull this off playing nice.

Dean is not on the left. I am a moderate, not especially liberal. Once I was too moderate for this forum, now I am considered a lefty. I would laugh but it is not funny.

The party is in trouble, and it keeps acting more Republican every day. Don't offend them, don't have anyone stand up the them...it is quite sickening.

On Edit:
You do know that much of Dean's support is from Republicans, Independents and Greens? Some of his most active campaigners, including a few in our Dean group here are Republicans with a soul. They "get" Dean, and they support him fully.

[cosmik debris]

36. You seem to have a monumental chip on your shoulder

I'm sorry things aren't going your way. But we Texans don't really feel complimented to have out-of-staters tell us how faulty our party is. Around here we chose our nominees by consensus not by tantrum.

Mr. Morrison may beat Mr. DeLay with or with out your help. But even if he does not live up to your standards, he is still the best chance we have. When you register to vote in his district then your commentary might be seen as something more than sour grapes.

Until then, perhaps you should fix the Democratic Party in Florida and leave Texas alone.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cosmik debris]

38. Duh?

I've spent 45 years in Democratic Party Politics, 35 of them in Texas. And you pretend to know more about Texas than I do because you have a son who lives here? DUH? I'm just glad Florida is in such good shape that you can take time out to help us out.

[madfloridian]

39. Well, then, pander away.

Be sure you and Morrison and Nathan Wilcox do not offend the Republicans there. Be nice to them, as they are your friends. See how nice they were in the redistricting? Hey, I even donated to the Texas Dems....gladly.

So, go for it. Be nice, shoo Dean away instead of realizing he can draw huge crowds. It does not bother me. A lot of Dean people have financially supported folks there, but I think that will cease now.

Not that it matters.

[cosmik debris]

41. I'm sorry I was not able to make this point more clearly

I will say it bluntly with no intent to offend.

We "shoo Dean away" because he pisses off more people than he attracts. In fact there are some towns in Texas (Lubbock or Midland) where he would be lucky to escape without being pelted with rotten fruit.

We have found that the way to win elections in Texas is to avoid pissing off the people you might get to vote for you. If you piss them off, they certainly will not vote for you.

This may not jive with your political experience, but I am not an expert on Florida politics.

[madfloridian]

42. Then be sure not to piss them off.

Don't make them mad, give in to their baser desires. I live in the heart of Jeb country, very conservative. Dean would not be treated that way here, I can tell you that.

Maybe you guys have a real problem with truth out there.

Don't piss anybody off and you will fine. May not win, but you won't get pelted with rotten fruit.

Goodnight.

[cosmik debris]

43. You missed it again

Pragmatism trumps dogmatism You call it pandering, we call it winning.

[madfloridian]

44. It is not winning.

Winning is when you stand for something. If Morrison is afraid of Howard Dean, what the heck will DeLay do to him? Do you really expect DeLay to be nice and gentle?

Pragmatism is when you do what is the best thing at the time. I am a pragmatist, as opposed to idealist.

I do not think Texas will win those needed seats by being afraid of who they are as Democrats. Sorry, but that is how I feel. Shame on Richard Morrison.

[cosmik debris]

46. I see now

You make up the definitions so that your argument must be correct. I can do that too.

We believe that winning is taking the seat away from Tom DeLay. You believe winning is committing suicide for a worthy cause.

We are not "afraid of who we are as Democrats", but we are perturbed by people telling us who we should be as Democrats. Just as you would be perturbed if I told you how I felt that Floridians were totally incompetent at running free and fair elections. Even when I have evidence and history on my side, cheap shots are just too easy.

And you don't have to keep insulting us by saying that we are afraid. We don't play on the freeway. Not because we are afraid, but because we are aware of the dangers. Bringing Dean to Texas is like inviting ants to a picnic, we are not afraid of them, but they don't add a lot to the experience.

You complained earlier about the insults, but remember, you started this thread with an insult and you haven't let up. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

[madfloridian]

62. Yes, the Democrats are afraid.

Look what they did to Dean when he tried to speak fairly about the I/P situation. The letter from Pelosi/Berman, the whole party jumping down his throat. When he spoke truth about anything, someone jumped him.

Kerry said anyone who thought catching Saddam did not make us safer was unfit to be president. Guess who was right?

[sangh0]

90. Here's a quote you liked

"It's very easy to jump to conclusions or race to embrace a stereotype. It's harder to collect information, reflect on it and develop a more informed opinion. "

You might want to memorize that quote.

[ieoeja]

73. That explains W.

Everybody said W used to bully the politicos down in TX. So when he did the same thing in DC, it came as no surprise. It should also have come as no surprise when Jeffords kicked him in the teeth for it and several other Republican Senators threatened to do the same.

Only in TX do Americans cower so when threatened by a bully.



Texas - Pioneers had to travel hundreds of miles across sparsely settled areas to get here.

New England - Pioneers had to travel across thousands of miles of open ocean to get here.

TX - When they got here they found wide open spaces with Spanish farms and cities and the pre-Columbian tribes they had fought for centuries.

NE - When they got here they found dark, nearly impregnable forests inhabited by peoples about whom they knew next to nothing.

TX - They had to mostly fend for themselves against native attacks for the first decade or so. After joining the US the US Army put down all major uprisings.

NE - They had to fend entirely for themselves against native attacks for the first century and a half. It was only the last couple of decades under British rule that the British bothered to offer protection to the settlers in New England (and this turned out to be completely ineffective requiring the settlers to eventually take arms and put down the only major native uprising during this period while the British marches were ignored by the natives).

TX - Ultimately, they had to win their independance by defeating the armed might of Mexico.

NE - Ultimately, they had to win their independance by defeating the armed might of Great Britain.

TX - We sure are tough. We have to rope and hog-tie calves!

NE - Which wouldn't be necessary if you'd just build some fucking fencing, you dumbass.

[zoeyfong]

48. Well, Humphrey lost in '68; at least McGovern was right.

What people continue to ignore about McGovern's loss is that he was completely right about the war, and even if he lost, he provided a moral foundation that could have been built on for future elections. I think he was vindicated to an extent by Carter's victory in '76, because once the corruption of the Nixon republican white house was known and the Vietnam war was seen more clearly in hindsight, americans supported Carter as the moral alternative. But then the Reagan repub attack machine set in on Carter and totally defined the debate and defined democrats as weak, immoral, and virtually anti-american. Democrats did not repond effectively then, and have really been on the run ever since. They are constantly shifting and positioning and market-testing their issues, and there is no way around the fact that this presents an image of weakness to the american people, and weakness does not win votes.

[zoeyfong]

47. The South *needs* people like Dean to speak there.

Waiting around for the south to accept progress in its own good time is dragging the rest of the country down in the meantime. And don't bother with the 'red-neck bashing' cannard; i lived 20+ years in the South, and we all know that the fact is that the Confederacy is alive and well there. Southerners have been the last ones to accept every single civil rights advance to come down the pike since the formation of this country. Why should the rest of us just suffer in silence, waiting for Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina.....etc., to get a clue? Btw, you say Northeastern liberals can't have any effect on the South, but i would say that they had a heck of an effect during the civil war, and if it weren't for them, the South would be even more backward than it is. I hate to be harsh, but dems have gone way too far trying to 'respect' ignorance, and the only thing it does is build up the other side and weaken us. I hope Dean goes to every red state in the country and tells the people there what they need to hear.

[cosmik debris]

57. Contributions to stereotypes are not tax deductible

Remember in 1964 Lyndon Johnson, a Texan, signed the Civil Rights Act and remember when the Bostonians began rioting because the Supreme Court said that they had to desegregate. After Brown v. Board of Ed. Dallas desegregated its schools long before New York did and more peacefully. And we snickered and giggled about northern problems, but we did not come up there and "tell you what you need to hear".

You seem to have written your own version of history in which the south needs the paternalistic north to cure our ignorance and backwardness. My version of history is one in which you need southern moderation to cure you arrogance and self-righteousness. (and teach you a little history)

Liberals like Johnson, Barbara Jordan and Henry B. Gonzales got elected by appealing to the middle of the road voters, not telling "the people there what they need to hear".

I admit that Texas has its share of war mongering homophobes. Inciting them to panic the way Dean does so effectively is not the key to unseating Republicans like Tom DeLay. Make him incite the wing nuts. There is no point in doing his job for him.

Keep your eyes on the prize, not on the skies. And if you want to help, help, don't lecture.

[madfloridian]

63. How long ago did you hear Dean speak?

I think you are "whistling Dixie", and you don't have a clue about his stances.

[zoeyfong]

162. War is peace, slavery is freedom... North is more backward than South...

Jeezus H. Christ, *exceptions* don't make a rat's ass worth of difference to the RULE, which is that the south is a primtive, clannish, fearful, conservative culture which rejects every justified and beneficient social reform it meets, until it is dragged kicking and screaming into accepting it by the north and the coasts. Yes, of course there is ignorance in blue states and enlightenment in red states; but the record of history shows an undeniable pattern of greater backwardness in the the south. Today Dean is the 'outside northern agitator;' yesterday it was uppity northern troublemakers telling the decent, god-fearing white citizens of the south that they should open their schools and public buildings to the Negro, and the day before that it was northern imperialists trying to deny the sovereign southern states their 'right' to their peculiar institution. The very complaint that Dean or anybody else is an 'outsider' or a northern liberal, or whatever, and hence should keep his opinions to himself, is a good indication of the clannishness of the south; they don't care about the *substance* of what somebody says, their primary concern is whether he is one of 'us' or one of 'them.'

[cosmik debris]

163. Oooh Nice set up.

If I was trying to prove that the some northerners were bigots, you made my argument for me. You seem to hate the south based on your generalizations and misconceptions. That is EXACTLY the way the Klan works, and most other hate groups too. What would the moderators do if you had said:

"Negroes" (have) a primitive, clannish, fearful, conservative culture which rejects every justified and beneficent social reform it meets, until it is dragged kicking and screaming into accepting it by the "whites."

All I changed in YOUR statement was Negro for south and white for north. It is obvious that this kind of argument would never be allowed against people of a different ethnicity, but you seem to think it is OK to use it against people of different region. The moderator may disagree with me, but I believe that is bigotry.

But I wasn't even trying to make that point, the point I wanted to make was that some people pick out the facts that help their argument and ignore others that hurt their arguments. Anything the northerners do wrong is an exception, anything southerners do right is an exception. That's not bigotry, it is just bad logic. And you proved that point for me too.

[zoeyfong]

176. I am not a Northerner, and some sterotypes are true!

As i said, i lived 20+ years in the south, so i think my "generalizations and misconceptions" might possibly have a grain of truth in them. I mean who are we kidding, take a look at the electoral map- the south is solid republican (and was formerly solid democrat when the democratic party was the conservative party); would you really have us believe that the Confederacy saw the error of its ways and dumped the democratic party because dems were too racist and intolerant, and then joined the republican party because they were *opposed* to keeping blacks in 'their place,' women in the home, and gays in the closet? The apple does not fall far from the tree, and the fact that the Confederacy is solid republican is not due to coincidence or random chance; it is due to the fact that white southerners know which party they can count on to turn the clock back, or at the very least, stop the hands from going forward. Btw, i have lived in SD for a number of years, but i would hardly call myself a Northerner.

[cosmik debris]

178. It takes a lot more than a grain of truth

to make a generalization valid. You are taking your observations about southern Republicans and applying them to southern Democrats. That is nonsense.

I assure you we share the same values of social, political, and economic justice that make us all Democrats. Our difference is in whether we can achieve these goals by subtle means or do we need confrontation. You can talk about how terrible the south is if you want to. It is easier than defending your failed strategy.

[zoeyfong]

180. If my strategy had failed, segregation would still be de-jure in the South

and not just de-facto; and that's just one example. Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other; i am saying that progress is advanced by liberals such as Dean, and countless others, going to conservative areas and speaking on the need for reforms, regardless of how unpopular they are. It seems to me that you are saying no, we should 'respect' the conservative status quo in those areas, and just hope liberal reform somehow springs up of its own accord. As a woman, let me say that i thank god that women such as Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton (and many others) travelled to every corner of this country and urged on the cause of women's rights, rather than just sitting at home in the Northeast and preaching to the choir.

[cosmik debris]

183. I will restate my argument in syllogism form

Premise 1. Bringing Dean to Texas incites the Republican majority to go to the polls.

Premise 2. More Republican voters means more Republican office holders.

Premise 3. More Republican office holders is a bad thing.

Conclusion: Bringing Dean to Texas is a bad thing.

In order to prove my conclusion wrong, you must prove one of my premises wrong. Take your pick and give it your best shot. And remember, logical arguments never start with "if".

Your theory seems to be that Dean can change the minds of the majority here in Texas. Is that your experience from your years in the south, that northern liberals can convert large numbers of southern Republicans by speaking tours? Who can you cite as an example? I suspect you have no evidence of that or that any northern liberal has ever come to the south and changed minds. I contend that in Texas, change comes from within, not from without. (unless you want to fight another Civil War) Remember it was Lyndon Johnson who signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and Caesar Chavez (liberal reform somehow springs up of its own accord!!!) did not come from Vermont.


Regardless of your reply, you still can't give one example of a Democrat being elected in a majority Republican area due to the implementation of your strategy. I have given you three examples of the success of our strategy. The challenge still stands!

[cosmik debris]

165. see post #146

madfloridian declined to respond to my challenge. Will You? Can you show me some empirical evidence that your strategy keeps the Republicans out of office? Do you have a Democratic State Representative? US Congressperson? Waco is not really big enough to influence State wide elections, but we take care of our home town with out any help. Can you say as much for your home town?

[zoeyfong]

175. My strategy is to move the middle to the left.

My goal is to continuously move the center of politics leftward, and over the long term it is happening; you name it- ending slavery, ending property requirements for voting, allowing direct election of senators, granting women nearly equal rights, improving worker rights and safety, giving gay people more rights, getting prayer out of the schools, etc.- all these things happened because some busybodies wouldn't just shut up and let the status quo go unquestioned, and quite often those busybodies started up north and moved southward, not the other way around. Look i live in a very red state (overall) (SD), and i would freely apply everything i said (with a few minor distinctions) about the south to SD and other red mountain states. The fact that i live here is not going to prevent me from speaking the truth about it. I ask you, if northern liberals had not agitated for causes such as racial and gender equality, when do you think the south would have got around to doing it? I would love to see howard dean come out here and speak to dems and repubs alike, and i don't care what tom daschle thinks about it.

[cosmik debris]

177. We share the same goals.

We differ on strategy. My strategy has a proven track record of success, yours has a proven track record of failure. You still cannot name one single race in which divisive confrontational campaigns have defeated a positive non-confrontational Democratic campaign.

We both live in an area that has a strong Republican majority. In spite of that fact, Wacoans have been able to elect 2 Democratic State Representatives and a Democratic US Congressman. It might be a more valid argument that, because we actually ELECT Democrats, we are more responsible for the changes you want than the busybodies. You seem to be arguing that agitating is more beneficial than electing people. That is another point I need to see proven. At any rate, we are not likely to give up our successful strategy for your failing strategy no matter how ardently you support it or how crassly you insult us.

[zoeyfong]

181. Who said anything about being divisive and confrontational?

That's the thing; i think that dems in red states (and the whole country for that matter) are so worried about going against prevailing public opinion that they have completely given up on leading, and have resigned themselves to passively following public opinion trends. They have no concept of actually trying to change people's mind through rational, persuasive argument; they just sit back and hope people decide to vote dem by random chance.

And Btw, here in SD we actually have two dem senators, and there is a good chance we will elect a dem for our one congressional seat in a special election next month, but i couldn't really care less, because electing dems does no good if those people vote like repubs. You say agitating and changing minds doesn't matter, but that is exactly what must be done in order to get dems elected in the first place, and then to ensure that they vote like dems. You seem to have put the cart before the horse. Who cares if dems get elected, if the center of public opinion is so far right that the average dem makes Tom Delay and Newt Gingrich look liberal???? That is not success, my friend; you have been misinformed.

[cosmik debris]

184. You are not describing the reality in which I live.

I am represented in the State Legislature by two Yellow Dog Democrats. I am represented in the US House of Representatives by a Yellow Dog Democrat. Please be more specific in the Congressional District or persons to which you refer.

[drfemoe]

170. Are you saying .

that Kerry has no chance in Texas either?

northeastern liberals trying to carry southern states

If that's right, what's your beef.

[cosmik debris]

174. My Beef

is that madfloridian insulted those who disagree with her by saying that we are pathetic and afraid, that forcing Dean on Texas is a good idea. In fact we are embarrassed by her not threatened by her. If we were to discard our winning strategy and adopt her losing strategy we really would be pathetic. This thread would be a lot shorter if madfloridian could argue without insulting her adversaries.

[Scoopie]

28. First, Texas is the South WEST

But, in any case...

I'm not afraid of Dean. I don't know anyone who's afraid of Dean - he just had no connection with the Heartland of America - needed to beat that asshole in office now.

I really do wish that Kerry would send Clark into Tennessee more. We ARE a swing state.

I did see my FIRST Kerry ad today, though. Never even saw one during the primaries.

(BTW, Dean wrote off the South in the primaries. No offense to him and I hope he does well in his talk-show career, we need him out there, but I'm tired of the backing away by the Northern crowd, too. It would interest you to know that Tennessee's current Democratic governor, whom we LOVE, is from upstate New York.)

[Thrill]

29. I don't buy that

they are writing FL off. I bet Kerry spends more time there than any place in the south. And outside of OHio I bet he spends more time in Fl than any other state. And the last time I checked he was putting together a legal force for FL. I wouldn't call that writing off

[madfloridian]

32. Not by choice.

He did not write off the south by choice. He had a little help from the good old party there....long story.

Quite frankly, I don't care who Kerry sends anywhere. I am getting upset that Dean defends Kerry better than Kerry does....and no one notices.

I am glad Dean is out of the race. I know he won't be VP for sure...they would never allow that.

He has said he will stay within and support the party through November. I agree with him, that it is intolerable how the party is acting. Afraid to address issues, afraid of their own shadows.

Let Kerry send the military Clark, and the pro-war Edwards. What folks do NOT understand is that most of us have moved on to the effort of building the organization....and that will actually begin after November.

Do not let the numbers on the bat fool you.
They are not counting the larger donors in many cases. Other fundraisers go on, and we are not in the count on the bat. It is very misleading on the low side.

I really just have no party loyalty anymore, but I am trying.

[Scoopie]

34. I agree that Edwards was pro-Iraqi-war

And so was Kerry...

Kerry at least says he was duped.

Clark and Dean were not. Clark testified that now was not the time.

I'm an Independent, if that makes you feel better... I understand not having Party loyality. And I thought Dean did great on MSNBC tonight. I just know that he wouldn't have been popular down here - and I think Kerry's only saving grace is his military experience - however, Dems should reach out to the South. If it takes a surrogate like Clark, for example, or Cleland, to do it, then LET THEM. We need for more of our working poor to understand how the Dems better benefit us.

Keep plugging, madfloridian... we'll get there. :)

[madfloridian]

35. He would not have been popular at one time....now he has been proven right

about the war. The whole thing, everything he said. People are backing off from the war.

It is only the Democrats who are so afraid of Dean. A lot of Republicans like him. It is the mindset of our party. TX is acting in a self-defeating manner. This is from me, someone who just does not care if Dean runs for anything again. I just don't, a lot of us don't. His voice is clearer when not under scrutiny by the party.

[Scoopie]

40. Same with Clark

The biggest complaints I heard about Clark have been from Dems.

Here's an e-mail I got from a VERY pro-Bush friend after Clark dropped out:

Sorry to hear Clark is out of the race. If he had won I truly believe he would have given Bush a run for his money. I actually like the guy. Anyway, I know you must be very sad and I just wanted to say that it is a loss that he didn't get the support.

I completely understand what you're saying - just from a different perspective.

[Classical_Liberal]

45. They are afraid Dean will be successful

not unsuccessful. Don't buy their spin. Facts is facts and Dean attracts even in the South and Texas. Your right about Iowa and NH being a problem. Though he was popular their both places are very dominated by establishment dlc dems. Why the hell doesn't California move it's primary to an earlier date? Washington and Oregon should do it too.

[JNelson6563]

49. Many fear change

For some reason Americans tend to fear little morethan they fear the breaking of paradigms and the obliteration of status quo. For the "land of the brave" there sure is a lot of fear.

Julie

[ulysses]

50. run! it's the guy who's liberal, except when we say he's not!

He's dangerous!

:eyes:

[bklyncowgirl]

51. Alot depends on what Dean says when he's down there

I'll admit, Howard Dean has a southern problem. He's from the Northeast, outspokenly liberal on alot of hot button issues and as a candidate was portrayed as, not without some justification--culturally insensitive to the South.

Still, I think he could be an asset if he can go down there and focuse on economic issues and put a patriotic spin on his opposition to the Iraq war.

By the way, I wasn't sure from the article, whether this was a tour to promote John Kerry or to promote DFA--or both. If he's promoting DFA I'd think it's a different thing from stumping for Kerry or for candidates.

Personally, I like guy very much and think he's got the smarts to carry it off but if the local candidates really think he'd hurt them, maybe he should reconsider.

[jonnyblitz]

52. but its ok for them to trash northeastern liberals

and what does "culturally insensitive" entail. Not paying proper homage to the confederate flag? I am tired of people there complaining about being stereotyped yet they do exactly THAT to us up here in the northeast.

[bklyncowgirl]

53. As a Northeasterner I tend to agree with you

I would add though that a national candidate must be able to appeal in some way to the entire country. How anyone can do that without becoming so politically correct as to be totally insipid is beyond me. That's why I'm not a politician.

I also think that Dean was unfairly slimed for that Confederate Flag thing--the ideas behind the comment were sound. I would say where Dean was insensitive and tin eared was when he said that he would have to talk more about his religious beliefs when he was down south. That sounded like pandering to me.

I would much rather have the guy either quietly change his tone slightly or simply keep on doing what he was doing. For an agnostic to become a bible thumper is pandering.

I'm not sold on the idea that Dean or any other liberal should not appear south of the Mason Dixon line for fear of scaring the natives. I think that there's a need to treat people with the respect that one intelligent person pays another.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

54. "Liberal Contagion"??

What bullshit. And this Morrison guy wants Dean's money but doesn't want to be seen with him??

Unbelievable. Find some guts, or at least the self-respect not to take the money. Shameless.

DTH

[seaglass]

55. Look there are places where it would not be beneficial for

Ted Kennedy to campaign with Kerry. There are conservative Dems who aren't sure they want Kerry campaigning with them.

I'm sure that if Dean wants to help local candidates he will defer to the candidate's grasp of the local situation, certainly they would know it better than an outsider. I would bet that they wouldn't want Kerry to campaign on the candidate's behalf either and he actually won.

[NoPasaran]

60. I am a Texan and a Dean Democrat

And I am coming to the state convention as a delegate. I have contributed to Morrison and I find this story very troubling. I sincerely hope that it is not accurate.

Dean's supporters are now organized as Democracy for America. We are anxious to help elect good, progressive candidates and the race to squash DeLay is of great interest to us. But we are not just checkbooks. We have our interests and we will be heard.

Our party is not going to win by running and hiding, by hoping not to piss off the Rethugs. If we do, why should anyone vote for us? Why should anyone vote for a party that is a pale imitation of the Rethugs, and a bunch of yellow-bellied cowards to boot?

We are not going to win by appealing to the white suburban voters who have drunk the GOP tax cut koolaid. We need to appeal to the half of the population that doesn't bother to vote. To do that we need to be different from the rethugs. We need to challenge them everywhere. Not to do so, to run and hide and hope we don't offend anyone is a strategy for our political extinction.

Damn it, we are better than the rethugs. We need to shout that out, not run and hide!

[madfloridian]

64. Way to go there in TX! My daughter is a Dean Democrat in Dallas.

I like your post, and you are so right!

[madfloridian]

70. Morrison's statement, he regained my respect.

Today's story in The Hill attempts to create a controversy by implying that I do not welcome the support of Howard Dean and other strong Democrats. This is not the case.

I was proud to introduce Howard Dean to over 2,000 Houstonians in October, and will be proud to welcome him back any time.

In the future, I believe people will look back on Governor Dean and thank him for reviving the Democratic Party."
http://www.richardmorrisonfordistrict22.com/

[sangh0]

72. And you fell for it

Time to learn not to believe everything you read

[madfloridian]

74. Hi again.

And again, and again, and again.

[NoPasaran]

77. I was very glad to read that

And glad that Morrison moved quickly to clear things up. (Lovely picture too!)

Now let's squash Bug Boy!!!

Yeeeeaaaaarrrrggggh!

[madfloridian]

79. Yes, his quick response was very impressive.

:hi:

[drfemoe]

156. Wait a Minute ..

Does that mean the writer at the Hill fabricated this quote?

“I don’t know that Dean coming to the district is as important for us as calling on his network of supporters nationwide” for help, said Nathan Wilcox, a spokesman for Morrison’s campaign. “His fundraising power is ultimately where he’s really helpful.”

“There’s a strong Dean community in the district, but it is a pretty small but active minority,” Wilcox added. “But we also have to reach across to Republicans, particularly Republican women, and I don’t know how helpful Dean can be with that.”

Morrison says The Hill tried to create controversy. THIS IS A QUOTE from a "spokesman for Morrison's campaign". What does Morrison have to say about Nathan Wilcox?

[madfloridian]

167. I got an email from Nathan.

He gave a statement, then stayed on the phone to answer questions. His words were sort of not in synch with motive. Many of Morrison's campaign people are Dean people, and Wilcox is supportive.

He was so very sorry, offered to resign, but Morrison did not accept it.

I think he is right about the twisting of the words. Just remember what we are dealing with here. We are dealing with DeLay people and those who support them. I think of the times Dean's words, Kerry's words are twisted.

I thought it was classy of him to write me. I respect him for that. We donated more in Dean's name because I have kids in TX.

On Edit;
Because I tried to clarify and link to the website and Morrison's clarification.....I have been accused on this thread of falling for what the media said. Go figure. Can't win for losing.
http://www.richardmorrisonfordistrict22.com/

[drfemoe]

169. You did the right thing ..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=180x920

The accusations are really starting to annoy me.
It gives me grave doubts about Kerry when his supporters skewer Democratic voters without pause.
Winners don't act that way.

[cosmik debris]

93. I've learned something from this thread

The neocons and the neolibs have one thing in common. They both refuse to see that they are not in the majority. And I suspect that they also share the belief that anyone who doesn't agree with them is defective.

My apologies to those who don't fit into this generalization, but if the shoe fits. . .

[NoPasaran]

94. I've learned something from this thread as well

Some people are very, very scared of having their comfortable little boat rocked.

[cosmik debris]

96. Like I said

We must be defective(scared). Yes the shoe fits.

[NoPasaran]

102. Well, if it's okay with you fraidycats

We're fixing up this brokendown wreck of a party and seeing what we can do with it. Sorry about the dust.

[sangh0]

103. Not if you don't learn to not believe everything you read

I think it's just incredible that you're still arguing that Dems are afraid of Dean long after this article has been shown to be inaccurate. Some people will believe anything if it reinforces their prejudices concerning the DNC.

[NoPasaran]

113. And if you could learn to read

Instead of dogging people who don't hold one hundred percent to your childish notion of orthodoxy you might have noticed that I have not been arguing that Dems are afraid of Dean; I welcomed the news that the original article on which this thread was based contained incorrect information (as I had hoped in my first post).

My argument has been with the notion that Democrats need to be meek, mild, timid creatures and hope that the big bad Republicans won't beat us up to bad. I say that that notion is BULLSHIT and I WILL argue that point.

By the way, I have a little plastic card in my pocket that identifies me as a sustaining contributer to the DNC, so I will thank you not to make assumptions about MY prejudices.

What I find incredible is the way that some (fortunately only a very few) people on this board are ready to jump on former Dean supporters whenever they hit a sour note with the Kerryoke Chorus. Fortunately I have yet to encounter their kind in real life.

[sangh0]

115. The only BULLSHIT

are the claims, made by you and others, that Dems are afraid or that anyone has argued that "Democrats need to be meek, mild, timid creatures and hope that the big bad Republicans won't beat us up to bad."

By the way, I have a little plastic card in my pocket that identifies me as a sustaining contributer to the DNC, so I will thank you not to make assumptions about MY prejudices.

Your thanks are as hasty as your prejudices. You should have waited longer to learn that this article was based on a lie, and you should have waited longer to thank me because I don't care about what cards you have in your pocket.

[NoPasaran]

118. Sounds like someone needs a chill pill

Hope you have one in your pocket. Thank you.

[madfloridian]

95. I want the Democrats to stand up and speak out.

I am not especially liberal, most definitely not a "neolib", whatever that label means.

I am very conservative in some areas, and I am moderate in others.

I am satisfied that Morrison quickly responded to this, and he did it well. If he had not, many of us would have been disappointed. I am not sure where you are getting this stuff about my wanting everyone to agree with me. I can't believe you think that.

I am tired of the Democrats never speaking out on things that are vital. I am seeing signs of it, now, and that is good. I have lived here in this area where the Democrats are so beholden to the Republicans that they roll over and die rather than cross them. I have seen what it does to the party. I am seeing what happens when some of us are trying to wake folks up. They do not want to be awakened here, as it is not in their best interest.

[cosmik debris]

97. Like I said

"They do not want to be awakened here" Defective because they do not agree with you. Again the shoe fits.

[madfloridian]

98. They are defective, not me.

It is because they are wrong, not because they don't agree with me. They do not say anything, so I don't know what they believe. So I can't disagree.

[cosmik debris]

99. Rush Limbaugh couldn't have said it better

Thank you for proving my point so eloquently.

[madfloridian]

100. Then I would agree with Rush Limbaugh on that.

If Rush said Dems should stand for something, then I agree. Ours here are so beholden they are afraid of their shadows.

[cosmik debris]

101. Talking past each other

Rush says that people who disagree with him are defective.

You say that people who disagree with you are defective.

It has nothing to do with Dem or Rep, but with intolerance of the ideas of others and the refusal to accept that honorable people disagree honorably. Honorable people accept that having a different point of view is not a defect. Our party is enriched by people with different points of view as long as they are respected as valid and not accused of being defective. Different does not mean broken. It just means different.

[sangh0]

104. Expect more name-calling

Pointing out the truth, to someone who likes candidates that supposedly tell the truth, usually leads to name-calling, as you seem to have already noticed.

"Fraidy cat" seems to be the favorite in this thread

[cosmik debris]

105. Like I said

I learned something from this thread. I hope it has been as enlightening for others as it has been for me.

[Classical_Liberal]

111. In my experience the neoliberals are the people who jump

down madfloridians throat for complaining about attacks on Dean. It is the neoliberals that voted for IWR.

[cosmik debris]

114. OK labels might be wrong

After 45 years in the Democratic Party I find it hard to see myself as neo-anything.

I did not "jump down madfloridians throat for complaining about attacks on Dean" I jumped down his throat for insulting southern Democrats. Read the header on this thread. Do the words PATHETIC and AFRAID stand out to you. Madfloridian is using ad hominem attacks rather than reasoned logic. If he wants to use this forum to insult people, he should not object to being insulted himself.

[sangh0]

116. They want to pretend that madfloridian is being "attacked"

because she complained about posters attacking Dean

The truth is, that madfloridian was CRITICIZED for believing an article that even she now admits was untrue

In another thread, madfloridian is trying to claim that in this thread she was merely "questioning" Dems. The truth is she accused them (and a few DUers who disagreed with her) of being "cowards"

"Cowards" is not a question

[Classical_Liberal]

119. You accused her of lying

about the behavior of her local dems. A subject you would know nothing about since you don't live where she lives.

[sangh0]

134. NO, I didn't

I said she "made up" what was happening over the entire state. I suspect madfloridian is not monitoring every Dem in the state of Florida.

Just a hunch

[AmyStrange]

166. What are you trying to prove anyway?

That you're an idiot?

(Mods: not calling Sangh0 an idiot, just asking if that's what he's trying to prove - his own words speak for himself louder than I ever could)

d

[cosmik debris]

121. OK, I have learned something else

The moderator is watching. Message #36 has been removed.

Maybe we need a little more civility here.

[madfloridian]

126. That was my post.

You told me I had a chip on my shoulder. They removed my post.

[JHBowden]

122. Southern Democrats? They still exist?

:beer:

[cosmik debris]

124. Alive and well in TX

My hometown has two Democratic State Representatives and a Democratic U.S. Congressman. It is a fragile balance that we keep in our favor by letting the Republican majority sleep. We do not pander to the right, but we do not prod them either. The wisdom of our strategy is reflected by our success.

My hometown, by the way, is Waco, McLennan County, Texas. This happens to be the county where * resides (Crawford). His coat tails have been significantly trimmed here!

But don't tell the republicans

[drfemoe]

171. Hill County Texas

which is very close to you is the most Democratic county in Texas.
A lucky few.

[QC]

173. Ever heard of Bill Clinton? Al Gore? John Edwards? n/t

[Nicholas_J]

127. Polls indicated very much the oposite

about Dean and the South. Deans political platform of Social Liberalism and Fiscal Conservatism did not play well among the core of Democartic voters in the south, mainly very religious, social conservative minorities who did not approve of his socially liberal platform. And certainly did not approve of Fiscal Conservatism.

[jsw_81]

129. You're surprised?

Southern Democrats have always been more conservative than the rest of the party. I'm not at all surprised that they're distancing themselves from Dean; he got trounced in every primary down there.

[dryan]

131. Gov. Dean would be welcome in Orlando

Southern Democrats are more conservative than Democrats in other parts of the country. From what I understand though, Gov. Dean had a pretty good organization here in the Orlando area. If he were to come here I think he would be welcomed and there would be a good turnout.

[cosmik debris]

132. I'm sure he would

But I have a couple of other questions.

By definition, choice, or fate, Dean is a divisive candidate. Will his appearance in Orlando or any southern state:

1. Awaken passive Republicans and drive them to the polls?

2. Alienate those Democrats with whom he does not agree on one or more issues?

I believe that Mr. Dean may be of great benefit to the campaign, But he also has some major negatives. You can't use a screw driver in place of a wrench. Before you strike a blow for democracy, be sure you are using a hammer and not a stick of dynamite.

[Finch]

136. I agree totally ...

[dryan]

138. Dean

I tend to agree with you about Dean being a divisive person but he I think he wants to still be a power in the Democratic party.

[madfloridian]

139. At least until November.

We needed divisive people to get folks talking and waking up.

[cosmik debris]

142. FL v. TX

If there is a majority of Democrats in Florida, I applaud you for waking them up, but I live in Texas where we have a majority of Republicans. Waking them up and sending them scurrying to the polls is a BAD IDEA! You may have a great idea for Florida, but it really sucks in Texas.

[madfloridian]

144. Then you are letting them set the agenda.

It is not Dean who is dividing the country. It is the right wing radio and the extremists themselves.

It really hurts to see him condemned for speaking out against a group like this.

Even if you do nothing to offend them, they will still offend you and pick on you and bully you.

I have bragged on Morrison a lot now. He is getting a lot of attention about this, good attention. There is more at his website now, and I am proud of him for embracing Dean, his supporters, and the truth. We donated again, and so did many other Deaniacs.

[cosmik debris]

146. wrong again

We set the agenda because they are asleep at the wheel. If Dean came to Waco to promote policies like same sex unions The Republicans would rise up and stampede to the polls. We have two Democratic State Representatives and a Democratic US Congressman. And this is in *'s back yard and front yard. The wisdom of our strategy is reflected by the success of our strategy. Show me the success of your strategy.

[cosmik debris]

158. No success

No response?

Can you point out even one instance where your divisive approach to elections has gotten one Democrat elected to a major office?

Still waiting.

[Nicholas_J]

150. Since 2000

The Dem majority in Florida has shrunk to 65,000 registered voters.

Thus the early efforts to purge the voter database of 40,000 felons.

[Finch]

135. It is all very well being Democrat and Proud…

But Dean (these days) represents a very narrow strand of the leftwing of the party, he has barley concealed contempt for many southern democrats representing moderate areas or entire states which could be considered moderate to conservative… Dean should not be surprised when he had come to represent militant liberalism which many southerners and moderate Americans feel is as much an attempt to demean their values as are the pontifications of the Religious Right…. Because Dean has come to represent this he is hardly an electoral assent south of the Mason Dixon Line or in many other moderate states much as the likes of Keyes or Robertson are not electoral assets in New York or California … having a person such as dean, who while he resonates with many liberal democrats is viewed with worry by many moderate Americans because of his stridently liberal rhetoric that at times seems abrasive, go to a conservative region of the country is not a good idea imho… and would hurt much of the work of the DLC and Blue Dogs in attempting to revive the Democratic party at the national level…

On a related topic what separates us from the GOP is they emphasise the individual and we emphasis community…now “community” means different thing in different regions for the country but there are critical similarities and while I think any quest to take on one section of the party is extremely ill-advised, I think we should abandon any uniformity beyond the principle of “community” with our party at the national level… there will not doubt be other issues that we are united as a party on…but look at the republicans they are an incredibly diverse party (at the moment) built around what they see as the defence of the rights of the individual now this does take many forms and yet they are very successful in senate and congressional races… the solution to our party’s failures is not to impose a rigid dogma upon our party’s members but instead have a central principle and promote diversity from John Breaux on the right to Denis Kucinich on the Left…look at the recent contests the Democrats who have won are those who have applied democratic values to their region witness Landrieu, Blanco and Chandler…. This imho is the way to win elections…

[madfloridian]

137. Dean is not a liberal. I am not a liberal.

Many of those working with DFA are Republicans, for goodness sake. You are doing just like Bush, starting from a false premise, and presenting your evidence accordingly.

Dean never governed as a liberal. He never said so. The difference is that he believes in speaking out when our country is doing something wrong. The DLC and the other candidates, except for Kucinich, do not believe in confronting head on any issues with the GOP.

They believe you can be non-confrontational and win. I no longer believe that.

I get very tired of being treated here as a crazy liberal. In 2002 on this same board, I was accused of being too moderate. I have not changed. Thus that means the forum has moved right. As Dean said to Nagourney a couple of years ago.....if the DLC is accusing him of being too liberal then one can only imagine how far right they have moved.

If I were especially liberal, as opposed to more moderate, I would wear the label proudly.

[cosmik debris]

140. Wait a minute, I'm confused

You say: "Many of those working with DFA are Republicans" and you want Democrats to pay attention the DFA. And the ones who don't pay attention to the DFA are kow-towing to the Republicans. So, should we kow-tow to the Dean Republicans or the DeLay Republicans? Or should we tell the Republicans to go f**k themselves. Your Republicans are good, their Republicans are evil? I don't understand.

[madfloridian]

141. Huh?

I did not say any of that. Sorry. I never said anything you mentioned.

Yes, many moderate Republicans support/supported Dean because they felt they had no party anymore. Several are in our still active group here. Because of Dean, they will vote Democratic this time, which is a good thing.

Other than that I do not understand you.

[cosmik debris]

143. re read post #137.

I took the quote right from your own post.

[madfloridian]

145. Yes, the quote about Republicans supporting Dean. That is correct.

He attracted a motley bunch of Greens, Independents,and Republicans, and I just said that was right.

Some of the people working to set up the main grassroots groups, such as Truth and Hope.org are moderate Republicans whose party left them behind.

I see this as a good thing. I did not deny that. You just took my remarks and spun them around like a top, though.

I am not trying to argue with you. I walk a fine line on this board because I am a DFA supporter. I would like to think there is room for all of us. I am beginning to think not.

[cosmik debris]

147. They are defective, not me.

That's what you said about people who disagree with you (post #98)

I'm not sure there is room here for people who say things like that. Should we ask the Moderator?

[madfloridian]

148. Yes, would you please ask the moderator?

But first you must explain to them that I was talking about the Democrats here in our area who are beholden to the GOP incumbents. I think that was clear.

Yes. I will be eagerly awaiting the decision of the moderators.

Thanks for the idea. It was a good one. The posts of both of us could then be scrutinized carefully.

Yes, good idea. Go ahead. Since you said this to me, I think we should ask the moderators.

QUOTE: .."I'm not sure there is room here for people who say things like that. Should we ask the Moderator?"

Yes, good idea. I have been here since 2002. I plan to stay unless I am banned after 9000 posts. Up to you, sir.

[madfloridian]

149. Are you going to post it in ATA? I wish you would.

Thanks.

[cosmik debris]

179. I did

Here is what the moderator said about my contribution to the thread:

I must admit that I did not look closely at the thread. But my overall impression is that your contribution to that thread was appropriate, and you shared your opinion in a manner which was not overly inflammatory.

-Skinner

Now it is your turn.

[zoeyfong]

182. Dean is RIGHT on a lot of issues; that tends to attract rational minds

from both parties. Your only concern seems to be electing dems, regardless of what their positions are on issues of the greatest importance. Read this: if conservatives control the debate in America and succeed in continuously moving the center further and further to the right, then electing "democrats" really doesn't do much good. The Democratic "leadership" in this country needs to get out there and lead, and start changing some minds and moving the center leftward, or the value of their stock is going to continue to decline.

[cosmik debris]

185. I am glad that you see things from a larger overview

But I am looking at ground zero. We may not be moving the world to the left, but we are moving Texas to the left. Is that not enough? Would you have us risk our position in Texas for the supposed gain in other areas? And your assumption that Mr. Morrison, the original subject of this thread, is not sufficiently liberal lacks credence and evidence. Tell me which Texas Democrats you believe to be too conservative? And please limit you criticism to their districts. Your generalizations have been shown to be faulty. Please be Specific.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[last soldier]

161. THE SOUTH IS GONNA RISE AGAIN

well i guess i better jump in my camaro and head to the rally.last time we got free beer and hot dogs to cheer for al gore.damn gas is still to cheap.to many people on the hwy now.i can only cruise at 125 and im not kidding.when it hits 5 dollars the road will be more open.we need higher priced gas.stop driving and polluting.let me drive my car like the upper echelon demo gods and goddesses do.think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Soup Bean]

168. You know, I was having a hard time telling....

...if that was a disruptor post or satire. If it hadn't been for the Tombstone, I'd maybe still be lost...:)

[drfemoe]

172. Freeper Road Kill ..

want a burger?