The line that Hillary Clinton 'hurts' Obama by fighting for the remaining votes makes him look weak

[bigtree]

If he can't handle the campaign against his Democratic rival without imploding, he'll never survive the general election against the republicans who have no restrictions within their party on conduct against their opposition.

And, if you think what the Clinton campaign has done in this primary is over the top, you're completely ignoring the fact that every little utterance by Obama's rivals has sent his campaign in a tizzy of umbrage and outrage which ends up elevating the very things they were busy slamming the Clinton campaign for raising to a flurry of media focus and discussion. It's gotten so predictable that I wouldn't be surprised if the Clinton campaign wasn't calculating the Obama camp's over-the-top responses into their campaign strategy.

The very fact that Obama hasn't yet closed this primary out, and that Clinton seems to be actually gaining momentum in key states, is testament to the weakness of his supposedly inevitable campaign. It makes no sense to blame Clinton for unfairly standing in the way of his preordained ascension if he can't achieve the necessary amount of delegates for the nomination by votes cast alone.

What Obama needs to do is to bear down, follow the rules, and finish this primary election by exhausting every opportunity the voters in the remaining states have to offer. Only then can he rightfully claim to have bested Clinton, at least in the delegate count (if that's the outcome). Railing against the Clinton campaign for fighting for those votes as some sort of evil is a slander of the democratic process itself.

Unless Obama is prepared to declare that the votes in these upcoming states aren't important to him -- and reveal his preference for a coronation instead of an election -- he'll need to respect the votes that his rival is gaining, which, so far, have put her campaign on almost equal footing with his own inevitable reliance on the superdelegates, which, despite what Gov. Richardson said today, are going to be the only mechanism by which either candidate can, by adhering to the rules, obtain the amount of delegates required under our Democratic system, to nominate either of them.

[dkf]

1. Even Mike Huckabee figured it out.

Hillary is an idiot.

[Beacool]

19. And your guy is a flim flam artist. n/t

[dkf]

24. Call him what you want. He's the Dem nominee.

[rodeodance]

40. GAWD-----could you be more ARROGANT!!!

[dkf]

44. Time to face reality. Richardson is signaling to the Supers

that it is done...

[rodeodance]

46. A

lot have signaled. so what. you count your chickies before they are hatched makes you look real foolish

[dkf]

49. I can count. And I understand that there is no way the Dem

party is going to alienate its most loyal base.

I am 100% convinced that it is done.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

64. They have alientated women and seniors. I will never forget the way they treated Hillary...

As a woman - it's made me really question whether the party and it's members are really FOR women. It's very shameful.

And the perfect example of how the party treats women is how Hillary and women are treated on this board.

Some of the comments I saw just on one thread:

"dried-up vagina" "Ferraro's cootch."

Hillary is "a snotty bitch"

I could give a shit about how she (Hillary) may 'suffer' over sexism"

piss on her (Hillary)


Shameful....

This all has had a profound effect on me.

[Beacool]

68. That's why a potted plant will get my vote before Obama.

So far, 25% of Hillary's supporters will rather vote for McCain plus quite a few more who will either vote for Nader or stay home.

So much for the mirage of unity and hope........

[kwenu]

71. Then let us go to hell together because Obama will be the nominee. The Republicans keep the WH.

The war against Iran can begin, the Iraq war continues, the supreme court gets a permanent right wing majority, Roe v. wade is erased etc.

[Beacool]

79. Yep, let's all go down in flames.

Sorry, but no one is going to induce me to vote for Obama. I honestly don't think that he's experienced enough nor fit to be president.

[kwenu]

90. That wasn't an inducement. That was reality.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

73. I was going to vote for Obama but after seeing how much hatred there is towards woman

in the Dem Party - I realized that they're not a whole lot better than the Republicans.

If the Democratic Party can treat "Democratic Royalty" like the Clintons the way they've been doing - I don't really want much of a part of it if they continue in this vein. At least Republicans have some sense of loyalty.

[dkf]

75. The people who hate Hillary the most ARE women.

Ask around...seriously.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

78. I don't have a lot of respect for women like that either. Self-loathers.

n/t

[dkf]

88. What is wrong with you that you think women who don't love Hillary

are self-loathers.

On the contrary, I am a self-respecter and that is why I loathe Hillary.

She is a sad example of womanhood, letting her tom-cat of a husband walk all over her.

Blech.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

89. I'm saying that women who have venemous hate for her have a problem....

It is really almost a form of self-loathing.

[dkf]

93. Well I hate the way she lets Bill treat her. So sue me.

Its not like it happened only once...

I ask how can any self-respecting woman let that be done to her. And she wants to be President of the United States when she has spent a whole lot of her adult life being cheated on? And please don't let me see her play the victim or talk about "bad men".

Disgusting!

:puke:

I have been consistent on this issue and got absolutely pounded on by a whole lot of men who thought I was being ridiculous.

[krkaufman]

124. Except it's not their selfs that they are loathing. n/t

[kwenu]

77. I will for vote for the democratic nominee. Period. No debate. I don't have to like it.

This is about our country not a candidate.

[Beacool]

80. Loyalty? The Dems. don't know the meaning of loyalty.

Starting with Obama......

[kwenu]

91. Yes. How dare we not vote for Hillary.

:eyes:

[Shae]

130. If you think that badly of Dems

maybe you're in the wrong place.
You can probably find many people that will agree with you that the Dems "don't know the meaning of loyalty" on one of the McCain sites.

[krkaufman]

126. Do you understand that many don't like the Clintons because they conduct themselves as ...

... "Democratic Royalty"?

And it is even more aggravating when one sees the triangulation and pandering they've done over the last 16 years, ceding ground to the Republicans, rather than standing strong for liberal & progressive principles.

[dkf]

74. I'm a woman and I find her embarassing. Why couldn't we find a woman with some

common decency who can tell the truth? That stupid sniper fire now...it just keeps on coming. ARGH.

Honestly she makes me ashamed to be a female.

[woolldog]

94. You seem to think what's said on this board has the official stamp

of the Obama campaign. That's a very distorted view of reality.

[ClassWarrior]

66. LET IT SINK.

NGU.

[rodeodance]

92. Whatever--see you in Denver

[kwenu]

51. Actually, I think the Supers are signaling through Richardson.

[undeterred]

53. EXACTLY!

I emailed both my Senators today (Feingold and Kohl, who have waited to announce their endorsement) and asked them to publicly endorse Obama now. Obama won Wisconsin 58-42.

[Beacool]

60. Who won't get elected in November..................

[dkf]

62. You'd like to think so...so you can justify trashing our nominee.

whatever.

[Beacool]

67. Nope, but I'll buy plenty of popcorn an watch the fur fly.

Once the Repugs start with the 527 ads it'll get "interesting"..........

[dkf]

70. Yeah you will love watching our Dem nominee get pounded.

Figures. I know you all love John McCain anyway, just like Bill and Hillary.

[GoldieAZ49]

63. Huckabee didn't have the super delegate final vote

dems do

[Cali_Democrat]

2. Hillary has already imploded. nt

[JeffR]

3. Your OP doesn't convince, but if you'd left it at simply the title

I would agree 100%.

[anonymous171]

4. The problem is that Obama won't kneecap another democrat. So her attacking him is more of one-way.

[anamandujano]

13. Where ya been Rip Van Winkle?

[bigtree]

15. Of course, suggesting that Hillary Clinton is some sort of trigger-happy warmonger isn't offensive

. . . to you.

I don't even suppose you regard the Obama campaign's raising today of the controversies surrounding the republican campaign to unseat the two-term Democratic president as a political wedge in their flagging campaign as 'kneecapping'.

[burythehatchet]

5. its becoming clownish...an embarassment...they have managed to set a new low

in the History of the Democratic party.

[rodeodance]

41. Yes, BO camp is the embarrassemt!

[OhioBlue]

6. She's hurting the Party and the Progressive movement. n/t

[rodeodance]

36. This

boring meme is getting real old. something new??

[DJ13]

7. Its not the fighting, its the smears and distortions

Her chance of winning is 1 in 10 at this point, and she's doing McCains work for him by trying to damage Obama to make that 1 in 10 chance pan out.

She is betraying her own party at this point, sorry.

[bigtree]

22. Obama better get to work. Hillary Clinton is trying to win the nomination.

Obama needs to do more than complain.

[wileedog]

8. I think it makes her look selfish

The remaining votes mean nothing. She can only win via party apocalypse.

And she has gained nothing on him, only torn him down to her level. Again, not in the party's best interests.

But then that doesn't matter to her, does it?

[rodeodance]

9. I think so many Ofolks.........

such as your post are arrogant.

[wileedog]

43. I think many so many Hfolks

are delusional, stubborn and intellectually dishonest. Not all of them, mind you. Some just overly optimistic, but a lot of them.

However if the situation were reversed and Obama was hanging on by the 'hope' that the SDs would destroy the party by overturning the PD vote, you would be screaming bloody murder for Obama to step down. Heck he is WINNING and 20 people a day tell him to step down.

And before you go there, I would not be defending him in that situation. If Obama was clearly out of this thing and slinging mud just for the sake of doing it I would be just as vehement calling for him to step down.

There's no point to this any more. THere is no happy ending for either side. The sooner it is called the better for everyone, because the closer it gets to the convention still lingering on nothing but the media propping it up, the worse the fall out is going to be.

[bigtree]

47. Of course, if Hillary Clinton gets more votes, as opposed to Obama's lead in the delegates,

. . . then the argument about automatically bending to Obama to avoid 'dividing the party' will be at odds with the will of the majority of voters.

[TwilightGardener]

10. When Clinton surrogates make it OK to attack him on race and patriotism, it

opens the door for Repubs to do so--if only Repubs did it, to a Dem nominee who had the party rallied behind him, it would seem political and not true character or baggage problems. That's my problem--attacks like the Muslim smear, the race-baiting, the affirmative-action stuff, the weak-on-security stuff, the "unamerican" stuff--that takes on more credibility when it's someone from your own party "going there", instead of the opposing party, where you expect it and can fight it full-on as a political smear. If Hillary attacked him on truthful issues, like energy policy or healthcare for 2 more months, and denounced the Wright smear and the Muslim shit forcefully, we'd be OK. But she's not. She's driving up his negatives and driving down his poll numbers with some ugly stuff, or at least standing by and working the SD's behind the scenes--not helpful. It does weaken us in the fall.

[rodeodance]

14. cut with the lies.

[JVS]

20. Absolutely. It legitimizes such heinous behavior when our party, normally a champion of these...

issues, is used as an arena for spouting such vile bigotry. It divides the base and is regressive for the entire public discourse. Hillary isn't just hurting the party, she's hurting America.

[emilyg]

38. "god damn america"

[TwilightGardener]

42. You sadden me, emilyg. Those are not even Obama's words, and

the Rev. Wright may have been offensively angry at America at times, but at some point he was not too angry and radical and racist to get invited to the White House and pray with Bill Clinton in his (self-inflicted) hour of need. If this is all you've got on Obama, a good man whom everyone knows doesn't have a mean or racist or America-hating bone in his body, then you don't have much.

[rodeodance]

58. Perceptions matter, Associations matter

[emilyg]

65. Yep.

[bigtree]

21. the 'Muslim smear' was a Drudge LIE elevated by the Obama camp's explotation of it

. . . and by their several days of bleating about it which elevated the pics which had already been published and buried months before.

The rest of what you've outlined there are attempts by the Obama camp to twist the words of surrogates into something on which they could feign outrage and put the Clinton camp on the defensive. The false umbrage merely elevated and highlighted whatever point of weakness they were railing against. Completely oblivious to the fact that their campaign could little afford to be bogged down in a back and forth over race, the Obama camp, nonetheless, decided it was a good idea to bitch and moan at every mention of the subject and declare racism at every turn.

And you bring up the Wright controversy as a smear??? What a crock. That's as laughable as Obama using his own problem with his close association with the controversial preacher to tutor and lecture the rest of us on race relations.

[TwilightGardener]

26. Bob Kerrey didn't say how great it was to have a guy who attended madrassas?

Did I hallucinate that? Did I miss Miss Geraldine's affirmative action "lucky he's black, or he'd be nowhere" comment?

[bigtree]

32. and other Obama 'supporters' haven't said their own peace?

what does that prove? POlitics? In a POlitical campaign?? Gads!

[kwenu]

54. This is clearly false. It is undisputed that the "muslim email" originated from Hillary's campaign.

The staffers were "fired" for it.

[bigtree]

61. you are way off on this. You have NO proof of that as it is undeniably FALSE.

To this day, there has been no identity of any of the 'campaign staffers' who Drudge says 'leaked' the already published photo to him. Drudge never posted the message which he claimed to have "obtained.

[kwenu]

69. The Clinton campaign fired its staffers who were responsible for circulating the "He's a muslim"

email.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22181497/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/10/second-clinton-volunteer-_n_76047.html

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

[bigtree]

84. that crap in 2007?? That's what you're talking about?

PLENTY of Obama surrogates have gotten fired for worse slander. As for the Drudge smear and Clinton's acceptance of Obama's 'word' that he's not a Muslim, they have no case against Clinton at all.

[JoFerret]

23. Your sig line indicates you have no repect for people

SP has already moved on. She is a formidable intelligence and a person of worth.
Hillary should hire her!

[Straight Shooter]

27. Anyone can be attacked on the issue of patriotism.

Anyone. Don't think for a second the Repubs won't hesitate to use it against Hillary or Obama. Especially Obama. He seems rather dismissive of the Repubs' jingoistic streak, which they don't see as jingoism, of course.

Makes me wonder if they're going to do some oppo research to find out of O had a "Support The Troops" sticker on his car or not. :D

[Patchuli]

31. I strongly agree! Thanks for the truth...nt

[rodeodance]

39. It was BO who BELIEVED that RW slime called DRUDGE-with NO evidence.

[40ozDonkey]

11. When HRC supporters are right more than once in a row, I'll listen.

Seriously, give up on prognostication, you all are reaching Bill Kristol-like levels of judgement.

[rodeodance]

12. most Ofolks are in denial about SD deciding. Many have duped BO "our nominee" already

[slinkerwink]

16. Huckabee attacking McCain would've made McCain look weak

Huckabee chose not to do so out of party loyalty.

[TwilightGardener]

18. Huckabee praising Hillary and saying Hillary met the commander-in-chief

threshold and had a lifetime of experience, while all poor McCain had was busted arms and bad memories, would have meant his expulsion from the party. Not so, for nutless-wonder Democrats.

[sandnsea]

17. They're on O'Reilly trashing Kos,

they've already alienated the black community, they said they didn't need Richardson anymore, since (all the Latino elections are over), they've insulted young people as stupid... when they admit they've only got a 10% chance of winning.

What else is this except destroying the party??

[rodeodance]

37. KOS

needs to be thrashed . I do not care who does it

[Usrename]

25. Yeah, why not let her fight on and squander more resources?

That's brilliant! Another $50 or $100 million spent between the two of them to make the party look childish, brilliant I tell you.

In the general election, the wobbly middle of the electorate will vote with which ever party they feel is stronger. To these people, unity is perceived as strength. As the fear campaign ramps up in the fall, and it will, perhaps with more attacks on our soil, then the mushy middle of the electorate will be pulled to the side that they perceive as more unified. It will happen.

This is why it would benefit the party a lot to get some unity behind a single candidate and start raising funds for the down-ballot races which are much more important than prolonging this primary contest past its use-by date.

[bigtree]

29. sure because, although Obama can't win the nomination by votes alone

he's INEVITABLE!!

[Usrename]

95. Explain to me a plausible scenario for a Clinton victory.

Can you do that?

[bigtree]

97. well, I'll put it this way

there is no provision in the rules of our primary contest which says that the person with the majority of pledged delegates going into the convention is the winner. They have to meet the numerical threshold set out in the rules. If they don't, the superdelegates decide the winner with their support. There is no requirement that those SDs choose the one with the delegate lead. And, any move to make that a standard will, of course, be an action against the popular vote IF Clinton manages to edge Obama in that.

Right now, the odds are steep for any scenario for a Clinton nomination, but not impossible. The best chance she has right now, that she can reasonably effect with her actions and our support, is to appeal for as many votes as she's able in the upcoming contests and close the gap further with some resolution of the contests in Mich, and Fla.. I'm not going to get into some back and forth over these scenarios because it's exhausting, but, with Obama relying on the will of the superdelegates (like Clinton) to achieve enough delegates for the nomination, this is still an open race.

[Usrename]

98. Do you admit there is no plausible scenario where she can win?

You aren't able to articulate any plausible scenario that leads to her being sworn in as president.

Does that mean you cannot think of any path to victory for her? I mean, you say it is an open race, at what point is it over?

[bigtree]

101. read again

Obama can't 'win' without the help of the superdelegates. Neither can Hillary Clinton.

[Usrename]

104. You are making an argument that she can still win.

All I am asking is how do you think this can happen. What is the plausible scenario that will lead to her victory?

If you think a victory is still possible for her, then you must be able to imagine some scenario that would lead her winning.

How can she win? I don't think there is any possibility of it, but I'm willing to keep an open mind. Tell me how she can win!

[bigtree]

105. and I've argued it as far as I please.

go give someone else a headache.

[rodeodance]

33. Your.....

arrogance is beyond the pale. This IS the primary season. Got that??

[Usrename]

96. Can you explain a plausible scenario for a Clinton victory?

I'm still curious about what you think Hillary's path to victory really is.

How is she going to win this thing? Can she lose the delegate race, lose the popular vote, and somehow come away with a win from the convention?

And if she does somehow manage to get the nomination while losing the vote, this scenario helps the party how? She won't ever win a general if she does that, will she? Her negatives will be even higher than they were when this thing started.

A year ago half the people in the country wouldn't vote for her. If she snakes the nomination away from a movement that won more votes and more delegates, then she'd be almost guaranteed to lose every state in the general election. Half of the people that can still stomach her now will never vote for her if she continues in this fashion. It might be a different conversation if she were winning, but she isn't. She is losing badly. At what point do you think losing badly should become a loss? When she has no possibility of winning the Whitehouse?

So, (and feel free to use your imagination) how does she get elected to the Whitehouse?

I'm still waiting to hear if you have any plausible scenario?

[AZBlue]

28. It's not that he can't handle her (OBVIOUSLY).

It's that he should be spending his time now campaigning against McCain, not Clinton. McCain is out campaigning for President and so should our nominee!!

But you already knew that...no one could be so stupid to not understand that...

[bigtree]

45. But, you represent that notion as if Hillary Clinton had just moved in without the invitation

. . . of the 11 million votes cast in her favor

[AZBlue]

72. In any vote there's always a loser and always voters who don't get their favored candidate.

That's the way of democracy - "majority rules," not "everyone gets their way"

I've voted for several candidates that didn't win - including Obama in my own state. I'm not throwing a temper tantrum about it.

[bigtree]

82. Well, Obama can't win until the contest is over. That fact belies the notion of Clinton as a 'loser'

. . . at this point in this primary.

[AZBlue]

118. Except that she can't possibly if you look at math, facts and/or the reality of it.

And that pretty much does define "loser."

IF there was a way she could win, I would be the first to say she should stay in - of course she would need to, it would only be right. But there is not one way for her to do it - it's inevitable.

[bigtree]

120. I'd expect you to say that, in Obama's defense. Best of luck with your candidate.

[AZBlue]

129. I'm just tellin' it like it is.

[frazzled]

30. I always said a competitive primary contest would be good for the eventual nominee

Would make them stronger in the general. But I never expected it to get quite this--um--"competitive" (euphemism for ugly).

And I have no problem with this going on all the way. I have never once thought Senator Clinton should drop out, given that neither candidate can get the requisite pledge delegates to reach the magic number.

That said, I am somewhat surprised at the resiliency of the Obama campaign. Frankly, I would have given him up for dead a week ago. I think, in the end, that what he survives from this can only make him stronger: it was going to happen anyway. With his speeches on race and Iraq and the Richardson endorsement, he seems to have risen above the difficulties of the past weeks. I'm not saying he doesn't or won't have problems from all this still, but I am surprised that he walked out the other side with composure and a measure of strength and dignity.

The only thing I have objected to, and continue to object to, is another Democrat saying that the Republican is better prepared to be C-I-C or is more experienced. Or, god forbid, as Bill Clinton seemed to suggest today, that the Republican is the one who "loves his country." That is totally out of bounds. You don't fight your Democratic opponent by saying the Republican is better. That just shocks me.

[rodeodance]

34. Michelle needs to make a comment like Bill then all will be well.

[bigtree]

35. That 'republican is better' line is an invention of the Obama camp

It's never been said, only in the implications the Obama camp and their supporters have chosen to attach to the statements of Clinton 'surrogates' and supporters as THEY have elevated them in their over-the-top rebuttals. The 'outrage' which follows is mostly over their inability to make their contrived umbrage translate into some penalty on their rival.

[frazzled]

48. Sorry, that's just not true.

You don't have to utter the words "the Republican is better" verbatim in order to interpret all these statements in exactly that way. Conversational implicature and all that.

Every commentator, pundit, serious writer, and many, many top Democratic politicians have said this was the meaning of the Clintons' statements. If you don't get this, then you won't understand why Bill Richardson did what he did today.

[bigtree]

57. you can 'interpret' their statements any way you please.

that's been the problem with the Obama campaign's response to them. How has it helped them to interpret these statements the way they have? I think Richardson chose Obama and wants to close out this election with his choice victorious. No mystery there. I found his explanations today unconvincing, beyond the normal preferences we all express. There's still a primary contest on. Obama shouldn't expect the Clinton camp to just shy away.

[JVS]

50. She needs to stop trashing dems and start fighting republicans if she wants to claim leadership

[Political Heretic]

52. Hillary's ego-first, party-last, scorched earth campaign hurts any presumptive party nominee.

Period.

You can try to spin it anyway you like. But the simple facts remain that there is nothing about having this nomination process go on a single day that helps the Democratic Party. Nothing.

And right now we already have a candidate with the most pledged delegates, the most popular vote, the most states won and the most money raised. Every other contender figured out that standing aside for the interests of the party is the statement like thing to do - puts the people and the Democratic Party first. Not Hillary. If she can't have it, no one can, and she'll damn well ruin the whole party, cost the election, and burn everything in sight rather than gracefully put the good of the country and party first and unite behind the leader.

[rodeodance]

59. Too bad BO has so much garbage in his kitchen sink to toss at him

[mkultra]

55. sounds like an assult planned in the basement of the HRC group

glad to see you folks get some strength back. Now you just need clarity to be complete.

She cant win any more and you know it. Shes not a fighter, shes a fight starter, Obama is a finisher.

[bigtree]

56. Then he needs to finish it.

The folks who voted for Hillary Clinton don't expect for her to just hand their support over to Obama before the primary contest is over. Not when she's this close. I can't remember a campaign where the trailing rival has had this much strength this 'late' in the process.

[futureliveshere]

76. There is a difference

Obama UNLIKE Clinton doesn't want to go with the scorched earth policy. He realizes that there is a limit to which you can downgrade your own party member, even if she is an opponent. Clinton has no such qualms and has nothing to lose, hence the kitchen sink approach.

[bigtree]

81. oh, yes he does. You might not see it that way from your perspective in support of his campaign

from TPM today: http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/obama_campaign_attacks_hillary.php


Obama advisers unloaded big time on Hillary's character, hitting her character more aggressively than they have thus far by hammering away at the fact that some polls show that high numbers of voters view her as untrustworthy.

"We believe that this is a really important issue as super-delegates decide who will be electable in the fall," Plouffe said. "The American people are not going to elect someone who isn't seen as honest and trustworthy."

Plouffe added that she has "issues around trustworthiness" that would make it very tough sledding for her in the fall. Obama advisers have yet to point to McCain's alleged "straight-talking" to press this point, but one imagines that they will soon enough.

Keep in mind, as always, that the target of this argument is the super-dels. While the Obama campaign has already hit Hillary's character in the past by saying that she'll say and do anything to win, this attack on her honesty strikes me as the opening up of a major new front in the battle.


Update: The Hillary camp releases an extensive rebuttal to the Obama camp's charges: http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=6664

[mkultra]

83. you know, this kind of back and forth

is just fine. Its when they start planting stories and implying things on TV that the game changes.

[bigtree]

85. both camps are practicing the 'politics as usual' Obama claimed to be above.

And, he's completely abandoned his high horse.

[mkultra]

128. sorry, dont see it that way at all

far as my eyes can see, clinton is the only one playing that deep.

[crankychatter]

86. Yeah you're much smarter than Bill Richardson

And every other faithful, credible Dem leader in the Party that SEES how this is damaging our opportunity in November.\

The polls tell it... Clinton's rise is negligible but the damage ya'all doing to the party is incalculable.

She's just maneuvering for 2012 now... hoping Obama loses in the General, so she can say "I told you so."

[bigtree]

87. you and Bill are (apparently) much smarter than the 11 million plus who've voted for Hillary Clinton

. . . and the thousands more who are waiting to cast their vote for her in the upcoming races.

[Swamp Rat]

99. The OP is full of logical fallacies.

I'll let someone else parse them this time.

[bigtree]

102. logical fallicies, you say?

Demending an end to a campaign in which Obama (or Clinton) will be unable to achieve enough delegates to win the nomination by votes cast alone before the rest of the voters have weighed in, is illogical when combined with demands to adhere to the 'electoral process'.

[gravity]

100. Hillary has no chance of winning against Obama

She has a right to stay in the campaign if she wants to, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Obama will just have to waste his money and energy countering Hillary attacks, instead of focusing on McCain. If he would just ignore Hillary, it would make him look weaker and hurt his chances even more in the fall. Hillary's attacks are against his character and he can't just leave unanswered. Kerry tried to ignore personal attacks against him and lost because of it.

If she had a realistic chance of winning, then it would be alright for her to stay in the race. Even then, if she had a positive campaign, it would be alright. Unfortunately Hillary decided to play dirty with no chance of winning without destroying the democratic party.

It serves no practical purpose other than to satisfy the Clintons own ego at the expense of this party.

[bigtree]

103. the 11 million or so folks who voted for her, and the thousands waiting to weigh in would disagree

that it's about the Clinton campaign's ego. We intend to win the nomination.

[gravity]

117. I understand the intentions

I am just saying that it is near impossible for her to win the nomination at this point.

The reality is that she can't win the pledge delegates and counting on the super delegates to overturn what the pledges would just destroy the party. Keep dreaming

[bigtree]

121. the notion that choosing her over Obama would hurt the party

depends on what they arrive with at the END of the contests. If Clinton has more popular votes in the end, and the party chooses Obama because he has more delegates, they will be ignoring the will of the majority of the voters. So much for respecting the vote.

But, with Obama coming up shy of the 2024 he needs to WIN the nomination by votes cast alone, he shares Clinton's need for superdelegates to decide the race. And, they are not bound by one view of how they should cast their vote.

[Milo_Bloom]

106. BULL--SH*T

Here's the reality.


When the GOP attacks a democratic candidate, it is taken with a grain of salt, because that is what the GOP does.


When a democrat attacks a democrat, it is seen as more valid, because they aren't supposed to do that.


When Clinton suggests that McCain is more qualified to be president then Obama... THAT statement carries far more weight than McCain making the same statement.


When the other Clinton states that a McCain v Clinton battle would be a battle of two people who love their country... THAT statement carries far more weight than McCain claiming Obama is unpatriotic.


Why do you think the democrats lost the unlosable election in CA in 2006? It wasn't b/c everyone loved Arnold at the time, it is b/c the democrats did the work for him and destroyed their own chances.

[bigtree]

107. most folks don't even know what Clinton has said . . . at any point in this campaign

The rest, the Obama camp made certain was heard and broadcast, over and over, with each hyped expression of their contrived outrage and umbrage. If they suffer from the comments they distorted and hyped, it's their own fault.

[Milo_Bloom]

108. Yeah... right.

These comments weren't played on the news at all... it was all because Obama gave them to the news agencies to repeat over and over again.

Be real.

[bigtree]

110. ask your friends for the quote. They'll likely cite the spin that came from the Obama camp

You won't find ONE account from the Clinton camp which agrees that the disputed statements were meant to attack or denigrate Obama, his character, or his patriotism. The notions are inventions of his campaign advisers, meant to put the Clinton campaign on the defensive. Weak and counter-productive.

[Milo_Bloom]

111. The quotes are from Clinton's MOUTH.

[bigtree]

112. the bullshit SPIN on them is from the OBAMA CAMPAIGN

[Milo_Bloom]

114. WHat spin?

We are talking about specific QUOTES made by specific people.

[bigtree]

115. no, you're talking about the Obama campaign's interpretation of those remarks

spin.

[Milo_Bloom]

116. Nope.

I am talking about the actual words.

Hard to get around them, eh?

[bigtree]

119. easy to smear the Clinton campaign with them, perhaps, not much effect

except to elevate the ridiculous interpretations of them.

[Milo_Bloom]

122. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

"Now, I think you'll be able to imagine many things Senator McCain will be able to say. He's never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience. Senator Obama will put forth an speech he made in 2002."

SHe didn't really say that... that is all spin.

[syberlion]

109. Enough with the poison texts

If you want Brown vs. Board of Education, Roe vs. Wade, and all other progressive cases over-turned then go ahead and vote republican, or for Nader or for any third party candidate.

If you want your sons and daughters to continue to die on foreign soil, have the rest of the world look down in disdain at our collective stupidity, then go ahead and vote republican, or for Nader or for any third party candidate.

If you want to end up living in a tent in the new Hoovervilles across this country due to the deregulation of our financial institutions then go ahead and vote republican, or for Nader or for any third party candidate.

If you want to continue this country's spiral into third-world status and have corporations with more rights then individuals then go ahead and vote republican, or for Nader or for any third party candidate.

The level of poison being spent on our own only strengthens the others and we will end up wondering what happened as we are being led to the "reconditioning" camps to become good corporate cogs where we will all go ahead and vote republican because all other parties will be out-lawed due to the fact they've been classified as terrorist organizations...

[bigtree]

113. save that for someone who won't vote for the nominee. I will.

But, we are not there yet . . . there is still a campaign to be fought and won. Obama is off of his high horse and reveling in the 'politics as usual' he's claimed he abhors.

[krkaufman]

123. The "fight" isn't the problem. It's just certain tactics that have gone over the line.

One thing that McCain will NOT be able to do, is be a Democrat claiming that McCain is more qualified than Obama. But now he doesn't have to, because he can just play Hillary and Bill video clips.

Hillary implying that Obama will not be a legitimate nominee can now be used by McCain and surrogates.

Tearing into Obama, I agree, is a good thing, but discretion must be used to determine possible GE effects -- if one gives a shit about the Party.

[xultar]

125. x

[BlooInBloo]

127. Only if Obama said it, which he didn't.

[rodeodance]

131. Present

[bridgit]

132. agreed...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

133. I concur