I'd like to urge fellow Hillary supporters to give their vote to Obama should he win

[ruggerson]

I keep seeing these posts from people who loathe Obama and say that they will never vote for him or they will vote Green or they will vote (god forbid) for John McCain.

I'm certainly not a big fan of Barack Obama.

I'm trying to find positive things about him, I actually like him at times, but I don't find that his words have aligned with his actions.

While I understand the "bottoms up" campaign as clever sloganeering, designed to appeal to people who desperately want to believe they will be part of some brand new democratic process if he takes office, it is, of course, just rhetoric.

I once asked in a thread how the presidency of Barack Obama will govern from a "bottoms up" perspective. By plebiscite? Of course, no Obama supporter was able to give a coherent response.

That is not their fault. There isn't one.

I do admire the fact that, in a purely political sense, he and his campaign cleverly smeared the Clintons as racists, got much of the media to buy the spin and had the foresight to run a fifty state operation, which left Hillary flat footed and unable to compete.

Politics is brutal and unfair. As it should be.

Obama has outgunned Hillary in many ways. It started in Iowa. He ran a grassroots campaign, effectively organized and thoughtfully strategized. She ran around the state doing large Town Meetings With Hillary and staged laughingly ill conceived events like the Hillacopter Tour.

And it continued. The gravest error of the campaign was the fact that she did not have a contingency plan, in the eventuality of a strong challenger. That they did not anticipate this speaks very poorly of her campaign. A campaign staffed by people that she chose. There is no excuse for the string of Obama victories after Super Tuesday. She simply did not anticipate events well and that is a strike against her. After all, we want a President who has foresight.

So, why support Obama in the fall?

Because we're Democrats and on every issue we care about he is better than John McCain.

He will get us out of Iraq, or will try to. McCain won't.

He will attempt to help middle and lower income Americans. McCain won't.

He will attempt to fix our public schools. McCain won't.

He will attempt to fund stem cell research. McCain claims he will, but won't.

He will attempt to restore constitutional protections. McCain won't.

And, most important of all, Barack Obama will nominate, hopefully, a couple of young Lani Guinieres' or Angela Davis' to the Supreme Court of the United States. A day I will find infinitely more satisfying than election day.

So, ok. I don't trust Barack Obama. I don't think he is who he says he is. I think he's an ambitious young, egotistical, self absorbed politician who has fraudulently reinvented himself as an idealistic hope and change agent, solely because he foresaw that the country was hungry to believe in that, as silly and ephemeral and empty as it may be.

But he foresaw it! That tells me a lot. That gives me the glimmer of substance that I can hold on to and hopefully you can too. Being a halfway decent President is only possibly if you are a halfway decent politician. The fact that he was able to foresee and gauge the mood of the country better than Hillary tells me that I can pull the lever for him, not with the hope that he would want me to have in mind. But with the knowledge that he is perhaps a skilled enough politician to achieve some of the substantive things we all want for this nation.

I've explained more than enough times why I don't believe in his message of bipartisanship or unity with the Republicans. Hopefully, this too will turn out to be a clever, cynical campaign ploy and he will end up being ruthless and tough and partisan and relentless.

He's been ruthless and tough and partisan and relentless as a candidate competing with Hillary.

That's enough reason to vote for him if he's our nominee.

That, and that alone, should give us all "hope."

[OzarkDem]

1. Obama can't win the GE

I'm not sure I would waste my vote on him. I would probably find something else to do that day.

[Yes We Did]

3. Not if we don't vote for him, no.

But, then, I would expect that kind of mentality... from the hopeless.

[jconner27]

17. Funny the group that stated they will stay home if Hillary wins

If he wins I will vote for him even tho his supporters are liars, zombies, hacks, losers, D-bags well pretty much mirror Bush supporters in every way I can look pass them for the party sake.

[woolldog]

41. thanks!

:hi:

[cali]

58. I'd vote for Hillary even thoug i find any or her supporters here are liars

and racist pigs, stupid fucking assholes and slime that crawled out of some pit. We're even.

[Change has come]

59. You are who?

I care who you can look pass...why?

[JeffR]

7. What a goddamn shame you didn't find something else to do TODAY

like crawling back under your rock.

[davidinalameda]

21. you can always kiss your ass good-bye

if McCain wins and we're stuck with four more years of the Bushies

[HCE SuiGeneris]

27. Find something else to do that day?

I suggest packing your bags and heading to another country where elections do not occur. North Korea might be a good fit for you.

[bhikkhu]

43. Can anyone else feel a draft coming on?

That is, the current military conditions hardly allow us to "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" without one.

To put the options in some perspective.

[CatnHat]

46. That's true

Obama cannot win in the GE. I will either sit it out, or write-in a candidate I support. It's my vote, and I will vote my conscience.

[usrbs]

75. So your conscience doesn't care about the good of the country?

* Leaving Iraq
* Civil Liberties
* Economy
* Foreign relations
* Environment

There isn't any area where a Republican president, especially McCain, wouldn't be far worse than a Democrat, even Obama.

Just think about the courts - the dozens of judges appointed by this administration (not just the Supreme Court) have already done a lot of damage and have weighed heavily towards the rich and powerful.

[NickMorgan]

54. why not vote for him?

I gather you don't like him now, but as a Democrat on policies, he's a lot like Clinton. Heck, I really don't like Clinton (really, really don't like her) but we have got to get behind our nominee! John McCain is dumb! He has NO idea what ia good for this country! Just like stupid Bush, he really thinks Al Queda is in Iran (Bush thought Iraq). And just like Bush, he was dead wrong! Where does he get these stupid ideas? How badly must you want to fight ANOTHER crippling war in order to come up with that crap. And the cherry on top? He thinks Bush is doing it all right!!!

I pledge that I will support Clinton if she is our nominee -- EVEN if she wins in a fashion that seems really low. The Republicans must go down. We cannot let that horrible party shit on our nation anymore!!

[RiverStone]

87. Then you are passively supporting the war mongering puke bastards!

It's one thing to promote your candidate (go for it!!!) --- but why post this wimpy I'm not getting off my ass and vote shit on a Democratic site?

How does this negativity help your candidate, DU, or the Dem at large?

Posters that threaten to either throw a temper tantrum, or stay home and not vote if their candidate does not win are such a HUGE waste of DU bandwidth!

I'm supporting the Democratic nominee, which I assume will (thankfully) be Obama - but Hillary would get my vote.

[bigtree]

2. not much of an appeal

not very endearing

edit to remove grouchy, unfair comeback

[Yes We Did]

4. sniff sniff.... do you smell that?

Gotta make you wonder when they piss off both sides.

[JohnnyLib2]

71. Fun picture.

Even though I like the original better. :evilgrin:

[jconner27]

5. Thou shouldn't throw rocks in glass houses

The Obama followers were prepare to screw over the Democrats over if they didn't get their way.. So Obama supporters shouldn't dare talk about anyone or how a campaign is run.. Obama reminds me of Bush back in 2000 claim the high road while his flunkies do the dirty work.

[ruggerson]

9. I don't know what to tell you

She has not run a good campaign or she would have locked this up. I agree the media was stacked against her and certain preconceived characteristics were distorted and exaggerated by both the media and her opponents, but the fact is she has made some enormous strategic mistakes.

Bigtree, you know that I think she would make a better President than Obama. But part of being effective as President is, frankly, bamboozling people. You rally the public to put pressure on Congress to pass your programs. He has the capability to be a first rate bamboozler. And if he does it in pursuit of things we want and need in this country, isn't that a good thing?

[bigtree]

13. I've never seen a candidate who's trailing with so much strength this late in the campaign

so, I don't know what to tell you, either.

I think Obama would be an effective champion for the issues and concerns we all say we care about. I believe Hilary Clinton is better equipped and better committed to using every lever she has at her disposal to dislodge the republican control and influence over our government institutions and to place her decidedly Democratic stamp on our democracy.

[ruggerson]

19. That's fair

and I'm not stopping supporting her, by any means. I'm just urging everyone to unite behind the eventual nominee.

[bigtree]

24. that you are

what's not to like about that? :toast:

[JohnnyLib2]

72. Thanks, you've really put my thoughts into clear words.

When I think about the nitty gritty of administration and desirable legislation in the next 4 years, she simply seems to have the edge.

On the other hand, Obama would be inspirational but spend time learning to use those very "levers." :thumbsup:

[JeffR]

10. bigtree, you're a stand-up person from what I know

I may have a candidate bias here, but I don't see belittlement and distortion in that post. I hope you read it again.

[bigtree]

18. okay

thanks. It's late, and I'm a bit grouchy on my nite off. :hi:

[JeffR]

33. I've been going through the same thing on another thread

though in my case, I'm letting my final post there stand, because I'm just too damn angry. Sorry to have preached something it seems I couldn't quite practice myself.

[bigtree]

62. It comes and goes

:dunce:

[PatGund]

6. My feeling.....

I don't care for Sen. Clinton. And I think she's ran a dirty campaign.

If she wins the nomination, well, I can't say my vote will be for Sen. Clinton as much as against Sen. McCain.

Because that's ultimately what the goal has to be. I'd rather see a DNC Democrat than a DLC Democrat-Lite win the White House, but I'll take what I can get

[NanceGreggs]

8. Ruggerson, what a jewel of a post!

While we obviously disagree in our assessment of the two candidates, you have set out - honestly, and without a single reference to cultists or kool-aid drinkers! - why you have chosen to support who you have.

Your call to unite behind the nominee, whoever he/she turns out to be, is simply the icing on a very substantial and satisfying cake!

Kudos, my friend!

:applause:

[ruggerson]

15. Thanks Nance

I realize I have a rather jaded view of the political system, but I think what's important is that we all do come to our common goal, not necessarily the specifics of how we individually get there.

[woolldog]

11. Whoa

"I do admire the fact that, in a purely political sense, he and his campaign cleverly smeared the Clintons as racists,"

ruggerson, you seem like a nice, reasonable guy, but BO didn't do this. The Clintons did this all on their own. They've consistently injected race and xenophobia (and now patriotism) into the campaign. And I'm not talking about the fairytale comment or the LBJ comment.

For the most part I blame her advisers, but it's been a noticeable pattern. I know the temptation is to blame the media or BO's campaign, but it's not. Really it's not. Give us some credit.

[LisaL]

12. If Obama is anything like his supporters here on DU, why in the

world would I want to vote for him?

[Umbram]

79. If people can't distinguish DU from the real world, why in the

world should they have the right to vote at all?

[kennetha]

14. It's not Obama so much

I actually like many things about him. But his supporters-- now that's another story. i've come to loathe them. Absolutely, positively. I couldn't see myself doing anything to give them any satisfaction right now. Maybe I'll get over it. But maybe I won't either.

[ruggerson]

23. you will

your love for this country outweighs some juvenile jackasses on a message board.

[Spiffarino]

49. True

But the stupidity runs rampant on either side.

I prefer supporters who stand behind their candidate, not ones who post inflammatory crap just to see their numbers rise. Tell me what's good about Hill, I'll tell you what I like about Barack. Then maybe we can swap what we like about each other's. Deal?

[Speck Tater]

16. It's so very sad.

This whole infantile attitude of if I don't win I'll take my ball and go home is just pathetic. Are we Democrats really that childish? Shame on you all.

[Spiffarino]

51. No, shame on US all...

...if any of us would even thing of voting for John "Bush+4" McCain.

[Hoof Hearted]

20. no

[kerry-is-my-prez]

22. Finally - a thread that actually respects potential supporters and ASKS for their votes.

n/t

[Umbram]

81. I'd say most people on DU

respect other DUers enough to expect that they would want to do what is best for our country in the GE regardless of whether it is Clinton or Obama running as our candidate.

Is that not a fair assumption?

[anigbrowl]

25. Thanks for your positive post

I know you've found many reasons to criticize Obama's candidacy so I'm all the more impressed that if he wins you're willing to focus on the positives and put a democratic victory in November first.

[MADem]

26. If people listened to the Obama supporters on DU, no one but a small minority would vote for Obama

at all.

Obama isn't awful, but many of his DU followers--strangers, most of them, who showed up to be confrontational--are pretty shitty.

I will vote for the nominee, no matter who that is, but I want Clinton to hang in there until the convention.

And for those who don't like it, tough shit.

[Joe the Revelator]

29. Maybe you were around for the last year, maybe you weren't

But if you were, you should no where the anger comes from on DU.

For over a year Obama supporters were belittled and told that their candidate had no chance by Hillary supporters (most of whom disappeared quickly after SC) who asked for loyalty oaths every day. The oppressive nature of this loud minority soured all relations on THIS board for the foreseeable future. I'm not saying how we reacted is correct, but having been here over the last year, and going through what Obama supporters went through, I don't lose sleep over it.

With that said, anyone who basis their vote over the actions of supporters on a message board is a fool. Last I checked, none of us were working communications for the campaign. We speak for ourselves, are entitled to our opinions, and have never claimed to represent or speak for Obama.

[MADem]

32. Well, I was around, and I didn't see any belittling. What I saw was

issues-related discussions. It's only in the last year that this shit has gotten ugly. with the bulk of the nastiness coming from newcomers. The Kerry-Dean brouhahas were Marquis of Queensberry Rules compared to this absurd shit.

And I have to say, most of the invective, and it is invective, is from strangers with recent resumes. The old schoolers who differ don't use the same terms or tone. They can get heated, too, and that's fine, but they've at least read the rules. The new types don't--they stroll in and start dictating.

I sometimes wonder if it isn't one of those childish GOP vote supression tactics. If so, they overestimate the reach of the forum.

I agree that no one should base their vote on what they read here. This crowd is NOT representative of America at all. It's not even representative of the Democratic Party.

[Joe the Revelator]

35. Perception all depends on where you sit I guess

But I agree with your last two statements.

[bigtree]

28. I'll tell you what . . . I think we'd have a dynamite campaign with Obama as the nominee

I'll take that fight.

[bigtree]

30. this needs some recs

B-)

[TwilightGardener]

31. Nice post. Believe it or not, some of us Obama supporters see

him as not so much as a pure and holy truth-teller, or an idealistic do-gooder, or Messiah, but as a really shrewd, skilled politician and strategist, same as Hillary supporters seem to admire her for her obvious political skill and tenacity. This might sting a little, but I admire the fact that such a "newbie", with no machine and few connections just 4 years ago, was able to put together such a well-oiled organization, and schmooze and network to get some big honchos on his side, and raise/manage so much money--against all odds and against some of our most seasoned political pros. When he made mistakes, he learned and adapted on the fly and improved his game. And even in his week of crisis (not even of his own doing, except by association), he stepped up, was tough, faced the cameras and microphones, didn't whine, didn't disown a good friend, and made the most of a damaging situation with an historic speech, the one that everyone said would be his most crucial ever, that his candidacy depended on (no pressure there)--and he surpassed expectations once again, in his own words, no less. I have a lot of confidence in his ability to win in the General election, based on past history.

[babylonsister]

34. Yours is a great post, and thank you for it! This has everything to

do with who is the most smart, savvy, and electible. Thank you for clearing that up!

[TwilightGardener]

40. Thanks!

[Bonobo]

80. The word I would use is "exceptional". He has the ability to step out of the same well-worn path

and make a stroke of exceptional genius, politically and intellectually.

[saracat]

36. I would like to be able to do that but because I feel he has run a dirty campaign

while pretending to be "above the fray" and as a result of his various lies, and how he conducted his political life in Illinois , I do not trust Obama and see no advantage in voting for him.Should he be the nominee, it would be very difficult for me to vote for him.I will likely write in the name of a Democrat who represents my values.It would sadden me not to be able to vote for the nominee but my state won't support him anyway.

[LadyVT]

37. Many of us do not believe he is a true Democrat. So, no, we won't vote for him.

[PaDem]

61. hmm, he's more progressive than Hillary.........

why isn't he a true democrat?

[ruggerson]

90. I think they're roughly equivalent

he's a bit better on some things (e.g: lobbyist reforms), she's a bit better on others (healthcare).

[Awsi Dooger]

38. There's another great reason to vote for Barack Obama

He'll win the youth vote overwhelmingly. And that has down the road consequences. Bush has already turned 8 years of new voters against the GOP. Obama starts out with a massive tilt in his favor, and if he can sustain it, and produce a successful presidency, it's potentially another 8 year block of pro-Democratic voters.

Voting allegiance to party is generally life long, not as vulnerable to shift as many analysts insist. Pollster.com and other sites have broken it down through past decades and administrations, and it's devastating. Imagine 15+ years from now if you have 16 years of pro-Democratic voters in mid life and voting regularly. It can be a trump card to virtually every cycle, starting out with a built in edge.

As much as I prefer Hillary, she doesn't have that type of pull among young voters. We might get a small edge but that's it.

Regardless, I share ruggerson's skepticism about Obama. That reinvented change agent paragraph was as close to my feelings as anything I've read. If he's the nominee I'll be thrilled if he's elected. But more than that I'll be shocked if he's a popular and successful president. My instincts are pretty good and Obama is like a sucker horse, one that looks best before the gates actually open.

[babylonsister]

39. Your post is a tad rancid, my friend. Urge, while spilling bile? That's a

wonderful endorsement. :eyes:

You don't trust Obama? We're even; I don't trust Clinton.

[ruggerson]

42. would you rather I be dishonest?

It's how I feel.

That may change as I watch him operate.

What you're missing is that I did't write this for you, babsis. You like the guy. I wrote this to people who despise him.

[babylonsister]

60. You wrote it for people who despise him? Thanks. At least your

motives are clear. Way to elevate your candidate! :thumbsup:

[ruggerson]

68. I didn't write it to elevate my candidate

I wrote it to explain how I could come around to voting for yours. I'm not sure what you expect from people who support Hillary. Many of them feel about Obama exactly the way you feel about her. I've seen you participate in threads where Hillary is being demonized as amoral, corrupt, etc., so I assume (forgive me if I'm wrong) that you have very negative feelings about her. Turn that around for one second. That disdain and disillusionment is how many also feel about Obama. I'm trying to express how I (and I can only speak for myself) can try to see through the negativity and ill will to be able to find some clarity and support Barack Obama if he is our nominee. This election cycle has been so long and hard fought, that you can't expect that Hillary supporters are going to turn on a dime and suddenly find Obama an appealing and inspiring figure. It simply is not going to happen. But we want them to VOTE for him, nevertheless. Don't we?

[babylonsister]

76. That was my overabundance of sarcasm, my friend.

I think your post could have been written without some of the gratuitous remarks you threw in there, like "cleverly smeared the Clintons as racists, got much of the media to buy the spin". Tell that to Leahy, Kennedy, Kerry, and Clyburn. The Clintons have been their own worst enemies.

Whatever. We look at this differently, and it's not worth arguing about. You're still okay in my book. :pals:

[baby_mouse]

69. Well...

Speaking as one who will never get to vote for him, or anyone else in the States, I think ruggerson's post was relatively level-headed. I'm becoming increasingly disillusioned with American activists who insist on interpreting criticism of their candidate as an endorsement of the critic's.

I don't despise Obama, but I think it would be a terrible shame if the US ended up with some kind of American Tony Blair. I'm not sure whether or not that's what he is, but that's certainly what he looks like. I'm quite sure he'll win, I'm just not sure what he'll do after that. He says all sorts of things, of course...

[littlebit]

44. I will start off by saying

I am a huge Hillary supporter. I have given the maximum to her campaign and have been a volunteer since january. I practically lived in SC for two weeks helping out before the primary. I also traveled to TX for a week to help out. If she is not the nominee I will vote for Obama. Not because I like him. It will be because I will not ever vote for McCain. I will not volunteer and there is no way I will donate any money to him. I will still show up to vote but it is more because I want Elizabeth Dole gone than it is because I want to vote for Obama.

[JohnnyLib2]

73. Aye

[eridani]

45. I'll make the same pledge to support Clinton

We MUST have a Dem in the White House, period.

[XemaSab]

47. I hear your cynicism towards Obama

but I do think even if he's not the best president ever (which he probably won't be) that we can make REAL forward progress in this country, not just in a material sense but in a philisophical sense.

I know it's woo-woo, but just as one example: his earmarks are full of support for the arts, and he mentions supporting the arts in his speeches. We're so far down the rabbit hole here that public funding for the arts is like, not on anybody's radar today. But if we can publicly support the arts, we can create societal changes that will last for generations.

Or the fact that he's not totally disavowing Wright. The guy's a little out there, sure, but the fact that Obama thinks that most of what he has to say is worth listening to, if not agreeing with 100%... I like that. I'm really sick of the middle-school with-us-or-against-us streak in politics, and Obama seems to have the ability to listen to a complex argument and process it in a meaningful and nonjudgemental way.

I'm glad to see this post from you! K&R!

[Spiffarino]

48. I'm not a fan of Hillary at all

But the Supreme Court is far too important, and HRC is head and shoulders better than anyone the Republicans can toss at us.

If she gets the nod, she gets my vote. End of discussion.

[bigbrother05]

50. Will support Clinton if she's the nominee. No GOP, No Way!

[splat]

52. Obama gives me the willies; I think he's a Svengali, not who you think he is

[RichardRay]

53. For what it's worth...

and I know it can't be much, the way I have to phrase this.

It has been my privlege to know one of Obama's top advisors for nearly 30 years. I know what he stands for and the work he has done. He is as solid in the service to progressive causes as anyone I can think of and is highly and widely respected on both sides of the Beltway and the Aisle (although Republican senators would be privately delighted if he just keeled over dead, I'm certain). His name is not mine to give you at this point, so that's the best I can do.

So, that guy has chosen to work for Obama and influenced others to do the same thing. I don't judge Obama's fitness on Obama's words as on the record of those who are in daily contact with him and believe that he is what he seems to be: not the Anointed One, not a being who walks on the water, but a good man worth working for.

Respect, for your willingness to lean forward, even when it's not what you want to do. If it comes to what you fear it may, I hope you'll discover that it's not as bad as you thought it might be.

[NickMorgan]

55. I love Obama. But I PLEDGE to vote Clinton if she is our nominee.

[JohnnyLib2]

56. Will support nominee, which mean I'm a potential Obama backer.

As are you. That point seems to be lost much of the time. :shrug:

Recommended

[cali]

57. your post is sick. . how sad.

you aren't really trying to get anyone to vote for him. It's a little passive agressive missive that won't do anything but reinforce people not to vote for him. It's full of disgusting misreprenstations and bizarre claims. Why would Obama nominate an Angela Davis to the Court? Because he's black? pfaw. How disappointing. How disgusting.

[MH1]

67. I disagree - but maybe I'm naive.

I think ruggerson is misinformed - see my post below - and frankly, I think that is at least partly the fault of Obama supporters who fail to answer the substantive questions when they are raised, even if the question has been asked and answered 6000 times already. (Note there are quite a few here who do give substantive answers, and I know you have on many occasions - but we have our share of knee-jerk flamethrowers as well).

Overall, I think the op is just trying to inject sanity that even if someone agrees with all the negative things said about Obama, Obama is still going to be a better president for this country than McCain ever could. It is sad that such a post even needs to be made at DU, but it does.

And I have been mulling making a very similar post about voting for Hillary if she somehow becomes the nominee. I was planning to work hard at keeping my negativity toward Hillary mostly out of it, but maybe I should mimic ruggerson's op.

[ruggerson]

70. uh, you missed my point

This is urging people who truly don't like Obama to vote for him nonetheless. The election is far too important. They are not going to suddenly like him, it's not going to happen. They are going to vote for him, hopefully, despite the feelings that I elucidated, which whether you like it or not is the reality of how many people feel. Actually, there are many who feel even more strongly than I do. As for Lani Guiniere, I mentioned her because I think Bill Clinton gave up on her too easily, and she's exactly the kind of person who would have done an incredible job. And Angela Davis, because she's a brilliant feminist mind. I'd like to see a staunch progressive woman on the court to counter, both intellectually AND culturally Scalia and Roberts. It's not helpful to see race behind every corner, cali. Frankly, I wasn't even thinking about their color, though I admit I was thinking about their gender and ideology.

[DemzRock]

63. Well, duh, of course I'm voting any Dem over McSame...

But I like Team Clinton's experience with the economy. The 90s were the best economy for me in my lifetime. And hell, yes, the music was better too. Alternative and Grunge vs the-no-musical-theme decade.

[thevoiceofreason]

64. If Hillary is the candidate, she has my vote too.

[Lyric]

65. I'm voting for Hillary in the primary, and the nominee in the general.

Enough said. :hi:

[JohnnyLib2]

74. Aye.

:thumbsup:

[MH1]

66. Governing from the people (aka bottoms-up):

First, people have to have access to information - i.e., open and transparent government. Second, you have to find and close channels of corruption.

Then you still need people to be educated in the means of working with their political representatives to get things done (it is shocking and disheartening how few citizens have even the slightest clue about this).

Obama has expressed and worked hard on the first two items. He has issued specific plans on opening up government and ethics reform, and as you know, sponsored the (weak but a step in the right direction) recent ethics reform bill. His plans probably don't do enough, but no one's shown me any plans at all by Hillary yet.

Since actual influence by the people on their elected reps can't even happen until those first two items make significant progress, I don't care that I haven't yet seen detailed plans from Obama on how to educate and engage the citizenry. He took time in a debate to specifically raise the point that citizen engagement is important, which is again, more than I have seen from Hillary. (please note that just because I haven't seen something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - in either Hillary's or Obama's case).

Even though I disagree with you on this essential point, I appreciate the sanity of your post. :thumbsup:

[Bonobo]

77. Ruggerson, thanks for this post. We have ALL lost our first choice at one time or another, so

we all know how painful it is.

[Seabiscuit]

78. I urge Obama supporters to support Hillary when she wins. And she will win. n/t

[PresidentObama]

84. How? Lay out the match, the case, and how she'll pull it off.

Her own aide said in private to Politico, she has less than 10% chance left.

[Seabiscuit]

85. Saint Augustine: "Patience is the companion of wisdom".

Relax. Time will sort it all out for you.

[PresidentObama]

86. Patience vs. Simple Math. Math wins! n/t

[Seabiscuit]

88. Your "math" is from Uranus.

Corollary to Saint Augustine: Impatience is the companion of foolishness.

[shellinaya]

82. Nope he's too dishonest

He's also too religious. I can't vote for a person who's THAT religious.
At least Hillary makes an attempt to keep her religion somewhat private. which is what it should be.

Obama also obstructed the re-vote in Michigan. He doesn't even seem to believe in democracy.

If Obama gets the Dem. nomination, I'm going to vote for Cynthia McKinney. I'd even consider Nader over Obama.

[PresidentObama]

83. Clinton's own aide said she has less than 10% chance of winning the nomination.

It's time to focus on the General Election.

Enough fighting each other.

Obama is going to be the nominee.

I wanted Hillary, and prefer her.

But it's time to move on...

[MoonRiver]

89. I doubt I will be able to do that.

The final, final, straw for me is his determination to disenfranchise the Michigan and Florida electorate, for his cynical political ambition. He publicly stated that he would agree to re-votes in those states if the DNC OKed a re-vote plan. The DNC agreed to a re-vote in MI if both Obama and Clinton agreed. But, of course, BO is reneging on his promise and MI will be screwed. BO is a pandering liar, who I cannot in all good conscience support. I will register my protest against a corrupt Democratic candidate and corrupt DNC by voting Green. I sincerely hope other Democrats will follow suit. These "Democratic" party bosses, including and especially Howard, Fuck You Voters, Dean, need to be taught a lesson they won't easily forget.