If Obama is the nominee, there will be an * by his name -- just like Bush

[Rageneau]

If Obama wins the nomination, it will only be for the same reason Smirk first became President -- because the votes of Florida weren't honestly counted. Consequently, Obama, too, will earn an asterisk by his name, because he didn't win the election outright -- "fair and square."

Obama only wins the nomination if Florida's and Michigan's Dem votes don't count.

IOW, Obama only wins the Democratic Primary by agreeing to disenfranchise Democrats wanting to vote in the Primary.

Why, that's almost "Rovian," ain't it?

[ClassWarrior]

1. But the Clinton Bullies keep telling me the popular vote doesn't count.

NGU.

[JoFerret]

76. Which bullies exactly?

With you winning so much and so well...how come you're such a sore winner?

[Nitrogenica]

2. I disagree completely, sorry.

"Obama only wins the nomination if Florida's and Michigan's Dem votes don't count."

Are you sure about that?

[Liberal Veteran]

3. Hillary also agrees to disenfranchise MI & FL. So the same goes for her I guess.

She only changed her mind AFTER it became clear that she was losing.

[babylonsister]

4. Those pesky truths, always getting in the way. nt

[Liberal Veteran]

44. The truth is sexist! Didn't you get the memo?

[BlueJac]

5. Ignore...

[onehandle]

13. Why ignore for that? The process is screwed up and whoever wins will won on a troubled path.

Neither Candidate is winning by a lot. The party and the two states fucked up the whole thing.

No matter what happens this whole Primary will have an * by it.

And now you can ignore me for being sensible and wanting discussion.

[AllentownJake]

6. This isn't the New England Patriots

Lol,

Fine but a * by his name and after 8 years of being President. If that will make you happy put as many symbols behind President Obama's name as you want. Do you think Bush could give a rats ass that there is a * by his name. He was President for 8 years. This isn't a sporting event where we keep records. Winning doesn't get you to the superbowl it gets your policies implemented. We aren't rooting for a sports team. We are trying to get the policies we like implemented.

[Smelting Pot]

28. THANK YOU!

The "politics-as-sports" analogy is tired and weak. Frankly, it shows a lack of maturity and clear thinking on the part of those who espouse it.

[SoCalDem]

7. * as in..got the most VOTES????

primary elections are but a faint memory when the general comes along:)

* next to FL & MI in the primary histories will indicate they they played chicken and were run off the road..and may show that other states should stick to the rules.

[Buzz Clik]

12. Ah, Dennis Weaver.

I miss Chester/McCloud.

[panader0]

8. The difference is that bush and Florida was in the GE

not in a primary where the states were told ahead of time that their votes would not count and moved the date anyway. What a stretch...........

[SoFlaJet]

9. put an anchor on this thread

troll alert

[onehandle]

10. Kinda. But's it's really the party and the two states who are at fault.

Maybe it's...

Democratic Leadership*
Florida*
Michigan*
Nominee*

It's all fucked up.

[Buzz Clik]

11. Well, ok. But Florida can only blame themselves for this self-inflicted wound.

Not many similarities between 2000 and this situation.

[Eric J in MN]

14. A difference is that in Florida in 2000, voters were told...

...they couldn't vote because they're "suspected felons" (most of whom were law-abiding citizens) as a way to help Bush.

The Supreme Court stopped the recount to help Bush.

When Florida moved its primary to January, it was probably an attempt to bring attention from all the candidates, rather than an attempt to help a candidate.

[saltpoint]

15. You've single-handedly demoralized the entire Obama 08 campaign.

It's over, folks.

[Inuca]

17. LOVE your replies

some of these comments leave completely at a loss for words. You can find them, and the right ones :-).

[saltpoint]

18. Hi, Inuca. Not only did the OP wipe out Obama's campaign in one fell

swoop, but I am hastily organizing a mass suicide for Obama supporters -- my place, 9:15 p.m. tonight. You're invited if you want to come -- and don't worry about parking on the neighbors' lawns.

[SoCalDem]

20. Pills? or dry cleaner bags? I'm taking a taxi :)

:rofl:

will you be providing the track suits & sneakers, or should we bring our own?

[saltpoint]

22. LOL! Actually, come to think of, bring a potluck item. We might as well

have a bite to eat before we check out.

[SoCalDem]

24. NACHOS

no jalapenos:)

[saltpoint]

25. Nachos would be fabulous. I'm sure we have some dip around here

someplace.

[SoCalDem]

26. DIP????? for nachos.. you from NOO yorrrrk city??

gotta have guacamole.. the grocery store probably has avocados on sale for $6.99 each.. (looks for car keys)...

[saltpoint]

37. I did live 3 years in New York, but on the other hand, I love the guac.

Count me in either way.

No prob on the car keys -- they were on Tom Vilsack's key ring.

[Hepburn]

65. My 60th birthday is this coming July....

...and all my pals asked me what I wanted and what I wanted to do. So already the plan is:

1. A group gift of an avacado tree for my yard; and

2. A pizza party!

So...if you can wait a few months, I will donate the avacados!

:hi:

[SoCalDem]

67. sounds like a plan

My track suit's in the wash anyway :hi:

[Hepburn]

69. Hey, my house for the party....

...you're in SoCal and so am I! Bring chips! :hi:

[Inuca]

27. I may be a bit late

so in case I do not see you, please leave some of the poisoned pills (or poisoned nachos) on the table, clearly labeled. Thanks.

[saltpoint]

36. Inuca, I'm generally thoughtful in periods of group suicide, and I DID leave

some of the poison pills out for you, but Evan Buy and Tom Vilsack took them all with a glass of red Kool-Aid.

I'll see if I can't scartch around for some more...

[DearAbby]

46. I'll bring the potato salad!

"woe is me"

[saltpoint]

79. Excellent! I LOVE potato salad.

[mathewsleep]

30. fuck! obama fans, time give up, lets give it to hillary.

see you guys, i guess it's time to go kill myself. if anyone wants to follow suit, here you go;

nice knowing you.

[saltpoint]

34. LOL!

Actually, don't you dare. We need you around.

[SoCalDem]

39. hanging around?? Isn't that loitering? or littering? or sumthin'?

:)

[saltpoint]

41. Me? I'm just waiting for the toxin to take command.

Meanwhile, I thought I'd throw on some Doobie Brothers.

[Unsane]

16. You do understand that there is no Constitutional voting requirement for party primaries right?

Parties can choose their nominee any way they please. Secondly, even if FL were "counted," Obama would still win.

[Forkboy]

19. .....

[jaxx]

21. I've had it with the FL and MI revote whine.

ALL the candidates agreed that both states votes would not count because of going against party rules. ALL the candidates said they knew they wouldn't count. What part of they won't count don't people understand?

Now ONE candidate changes course and wants the votes because of not doing as well as they assumed they would. ONE candidate is out lying to the public saying they knew they would.

I hate whining, it's unproductive and it makes the whiner look like a sorry loser. To make the public appear to be stupid and unable to remember what this candidate said at the time of the two states being told their votes would not count disenfranchises the rest of us. We knew the rules, we can read and they didn't say everybody but ONE candidate will play by the rules.

Shut up!! Take the medicine that you ageed to take and shut the hell up.

[mbperrin]

52. How very authoritarian of you.

Check out the Geneva Convention:

No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible.

Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); October 18, 1907, Article 50


The general populations of Florida and Michigan are being denied their say in selecting a nominee due to the actions of others. That is collective punishment, and if we were under an occupying power, these would be war crimes.

So it is perfectly OK with you for our own domestic policy to do what an occupying power would be convicted of war crimes for?

Collective punishment is the ultimate in rules.

I'm interested in people and representation, not rules which hurt both.

[jaxx]

62. Then you had best quit the party system in this country.

The states knew, the voters knew and for damn sure the candidates knew. To change the rules at the end is called cheating. The comparison to the Geneva Convention is wild....unless you are saying we are under occupying power or trying to play war.

[Hepburn]

66. Yep, all it is, is whining....

...over and over and over....almost as bad as the Rezko and Wright bullshit, IMO.

[Citizen Kang]

23. Playing by the rules = Cheating

Only in your twisted logic. Obama did not disenfranchise the voters of Florida and Michigan. Those two states did it to themselves when they BROKE THE RULES!!! They tried to leapfrog every other state and hold their own maverick primaries because they thought they could cut in front of the line and get some glory. They paid the price. Obama played by the rules and even took his own name OFF THE BALLOT in Michigan.


The only thing that "ROVIAN" in here is your cynical manipulation of the truth.

[CakeGrrl]

29. What part of "MI AND FL BROKE THE RULES ON THEIR OWN"

is not clearing people's logic circuits?

It's like hearing people say "Al Gore invented the internet" again...repetition doesn't negate the facts.

[totodeinhere]

31. No, Obama wins even with Florida and Michigan.

Obama only wins the nomination if Florida's and Michigan's Dem votes don't count.

If they either count Fla and Mi as is or do a re-vote that still wouldn't give Clinton enough delegates to catch up. So the entire premise of your post is flawed.

[mbperrin]

53. So let's do it and find out!

Because Obama people are preventing it from happening:

From the Wall Street Journal:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120605697827253319.html...

The hope held by Hillary Clinton and her supporters -- that Florida and Michigan would hold new primaries that could give her a much-needed boost in popular votes and pledged delegates -- is slipping away. It's no mystery why: The Obama campaign is running down the clock.

Even as the media watched Barack Obama take on the Jeremiah Wright controversy this week, the Obama campaign appears to have quietly nixed legislation in Michigan that would have held a new primary on June 3. In Florida too, the state Democratic Party appears to have given up on a revote.


Or the Detroit Free Press:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2008031...

Another Democratic primary, however, was looking less likely today as supporters of Obama in Michigan and his campaign cast doubt on whether they will support a do-over.

State Sen. Buzz Thomas, a Detroit Democrat and cochair of Obama’s campaign in Michigan, said he wouldn’t support legislation for another election because the proposed bill “is so riddled with problems that they overwhelm any possible positive outcome for the people of Michigan.”

and 1260 other news articles this morning.

The Obama people are simply in favor of rules rather than people. Voter suppression because it helps the Obama campaign. Not surprising, typical politics, and really typical Chicago style politics.

[totodeinhere]

57. That's up to the Mi and Fla legislatures.

And why should they spend millions on new primaries that won't really have any impact on the ultimate outcome? Both states are facing budget deficits and they can ill afford to spend money on re-votes.

[Hepburn]

68. Are you nuts....or just totally uninformed?

Obama prevented re-votes??? WTF are you smoking? MI and FL turned down the idea of re-votes. Care to inform us how in the hell Obama made them do that?

GMAFB......:eyes:

[high density]

74. The states don't to want to pay for the revotes

And having it funded by private Clinton donors seems just a bit, umm, I dunno, Russian to me.

[BlueIdaho]

32. Kinda like Bill Clinton?

Thanks to Ross Perot - Billy got the nod - remember?

[lligrd]

33. Florida Made Its Choice

Now it has to live with that choice. Floridians can either fix their system or move if they want their votes taken seriously.

[mbperrin]

55. Those nasty Poles could have done the same, right?

They brought Hitler on themselves is what you're saying?

[lligrd]

56. They Didn't Just Whine

They fixed the problem. Floridians should start with their legislature.

[Skip Intro]

35. K&R! And it will cost us the GE as well.

[EFerrari]

38. If Obama is so powerful that he can control the FL state party

AND the DNC, we NEED to run him!

lol

[Liberal Veteran]

40. If Hillary gets the nomination by seating the FL&MI delegates, there will be a * by her name.

She knew the rules going in and now she doesn't want to abide by them and you want to blame Obama for that?

[Vinca]

42. If Hillary is the nominee, there will also be an asterisk next to her name.

For this reason alone, I wish Michigan and Florida would have a do over. There is no need whatsoever for them to consult either campaign about what they want the election to be. Candidates shouldn't be crafting elections one way or the other. The states should decide and do it. I don't know what the big deal is. They already held one vote in violation of the DNC ruling, so hold a second one, warn everyone ahead of time and I'm pretty certain the ensuing votes would count.

[stillcool]

43. Hillary knew the delegates would not be seated...

she should have spent time garnering votes in all those states that didn't 'matter

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates

By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is breaking the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.

The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.

The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
Rules in both parties say states cannot hold their 2008 primary contests before Feb. 5, except for a few hand-picked states that hold elections in January.
--------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15. "We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Even states that do not have favored status are trying to jump toward the front of the line. Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.

The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.

Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.

They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date.
They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------

Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her.

“I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
Posted: August 27, 2007 6:05 PM ET
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5.
The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.

"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press

PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.

State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.

The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.
-------------------
The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

Senator Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) has suggested seating the Michigan and Florida delegates at the Democratic National Convention, even though the Democratic National Committee (DNC) stripped them of their status. The DNC originally set itself up for trouble by denying these influential states a place at the convention as punishment for scheduling their primaries too early in the year. However, the fact remains that, since each and every Democratic presidential candidate pledged not to campaign in these states and to abide by the DNC’s decision, these delegates should not be seated at the convention.

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.

Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

Voters Face Confusion in Michigan Dem Race
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/09/voters_face_confusion_in_michi.html
January 9, 2008
By Peter Slevin
CHICAGO --

"People are already frustrated here in Detroit because they can't cast a ballot for Obama. Many on their absentee ballots many have tried to write in Obama, but they have spoiled the ballots," said Sam Riddle, Monica Conyers's chief of staff. "We know we've got to educate the voters in a hurry."

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.

The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."

The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot.

The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.

[baldguy]

FL and MI removed themselves from the delegate count.

There were rules. All the state parties agreed to them. FL and MI chose to break those rules. Period.

[Milo_Bloom]

45. It's a primary... there is no right to vote in a primary.

The primary is a private selection process by the private party that is the Democratic Party selecting its candidate.

There is no right for anyone to vote in it, thus, you cannot "disenfranchise" voters.


Main Entry: dis·en·fran·chise
Pronunciation: \ˌdis-in-ˈfran-ˌchīz\
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1664
: to deprive of a franchise, of a legal right, or of some privilege or immunity; especially : to deprive of the right to vote
— dis·en·fran·chise·ment \-ˌchīz-mənt, -chəz-\ noun "

[Enrique]

49. I agree

the fact that it's a primary makes a big difference.

I'm in FL and I don't feel disenfranchised.

[malletgirl02]

51. You are right

The primary system the Democratic party has now was adopted after the 1968 election. Before then, some states held non binding primaries, that was more of a preference vote. The real decision makers before the current primary system was instituted were the party leaders in "smoke filled" back rooms. the democratic party is not an entity of the state, so it can use any method of picking a candidate.

[high density]

71. Exactly

Was I disenfranchised because I wanted to vote for Dodd, yet he had dropped out by the time of my caucus? No. It's just how the process works.

[lligrd]

47. Hillary's Claim That She Left Her Name On The Ballot

in Michigan because she thought their votes should count is both disingenuous and disgusting. She agreed their votes wouldn't count. Yet another in a string of lies she has been telling.

[Orangepeel]

48. I think this is silly. Many more states than usual got a say

The reason that Michigan and Florida were so hell bent on moving up their primary dates was because previous primaries were always too late to matter.

[Spider Jerusalem]

50. She can't win even WITH Florida.

Not in delegate count, which is where it matters. (Spare us the brain-damaged bullshit about 'popular vote', because that totally discounts all the caucus states that don't report voter totals/)

[Bolo Boffin]

54. Nope.

Florida and Michigan disqualified themselves.

In 2000, it was a different situation altogether.

That was a pathetic attempt to tie something to Obama that will rightly belong to Clinton if she bends the rules to get Florida and Michigan seated so that she can win. THAT's the real comparison between 2000 and this campaign.

[joeprogressive]

58. The * will say Obama won despite HRC's cheating and constant

negative attacks and the abandonment of whiny HRC supporters that didn't get their way.

[uponit7771]

59. Florida dems didn't protest reThug vote to DNC and Fla delegates can be seated proportionantly

[DrFunkenstein]

60. Why Not Have an Inexpensive Caucus?

I'm sure he'd agree to that as a suitable compromise.

[yardwork]

61. Wrong. If you can't see the difference, I can't be bothered to explain.

Primaries don't reflect "the will of the people." Primaries are the Democratic Party's way of choosing a candidate to run in the election.

[Hepburn]

63. LOL....

...where to begin with a pile of stupidity this big.

First question: Did you ever at any time take AND pass a HS level U.S. Civics class?

:eyes:

[better tomorrow]

64. Barry Bonds has an * next to his name, too, but he hit many homeruns...just like Obama

[TriMetFan]

70. Are you out of your mind????

:sarcasm: ssshhhhh. You can't be saying those kinds of things. Come on we all know, Real Liberals & Progressives would truly want all votes to be counted right?

[JimGinPA]

72. That's Just Asinine

[high density]

73. The only Rovian things are the flamefest OPs like these ones

that fail to remember why FL and MI were disqualified and that MI had a ballot without one of the front runners on it. You guys would be singing a much different tune had MI actually been a real race instead of that beauty contest. I disagree with allowing Florida to count after they broke the rules, but even if you do put them in she's still not leading. This outrage is over nothing because it doesn't change the game and that's why the officials in FL shook their heads at doing a costly rematch.

[JFN1]

75. No, Florida should have an * by its name

SINCE THEY BROKE THE DNC RULES IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Perky]

77. Let this sink!

[LordJFT]

78. Bush got a * by his name because he didn't win the popular vote

Obama's winning the popular vote even with Florida.

[Samantha]

80. Bush* has an asterisk by his name because the Supreme Court

"selected" him to sit in the Oval Office during the Election 2000 controversy. In that process, it stopped a full recount of the votes in Florida, which had it been concluded, would have put Gore in the lead in that state and thus in the Oval Office.

The two salient legal bases for the Supreme Court's decision were: the Safe Harbor provision, a provision enacted during the days where the Slate of Electors' votes were carried to Washington by Pony Express; and the premise that should the recount be allowed to continue to completion, a disproportionate amount of weight would be given to those Floridans' votes counted the second time over those whose votes had been counted the first time. In order to halt that latter disproportionate weight of the recounted votes, the Supreme Court halted the recount. In that process, IT NEGATED THE VOTES OF 51 MILLION AMERICANS WHO HAD VOTED FOR GORE ACROSS THE COUNTRY. READ THOSE WORDS AGAIN: THE SUPREME COURT NEGATED THE VOTES OF 51 MILLION AMERICANS IN ORDER TO AVOID GIVING A DISPROPORTIONATE WEIGHT TO THE VOTERS OF FLORIDA WHOSE VOTES HAD NOT BEEN COUNTED IN THE ORIGINAL ELECTION BUT WERE COUNTED DURING THE RECOUNT. How totally mind-boggling is that?

Never mind the fact the Supreme Court had no legal justification to intercede in this matter to begin with (read Justice Stevens' dissent).

So your effort to convince many here Obama would be illegitimate in the manner Bush* is is laughable on its face.

Considering the state of disarray the State of Florida's conduct has been during this primary season, one must ask: exactly how many Presidential elections does this state feel it's entitled to decide, regardless of how the balance of the states vote ....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. .