Dean's blunt talk about race

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/01/02/deans_blunt_talk_about_race/

HOWARD DEAN SAID, "I'm trying to gently call out the white population." His genteel example was a story he tells to voters about how his chief of staff as governor of Vermont was always a woman. After two or three years, Dean noticed that she had a "matriarchy" in the office. When the chief of staff was going to hire a new person, Dean said, he told her, " `I notice we have a gender imbalance in the office, and I wonder if you could find a man.' She said it's really hard to find a qualified man. I got everybody laughing about that."

That is Dean's icebreaker to get audiences to understand institutional racism. "The punch line of the story that it's so hard to find a qualified man is everybody does it. Everybody tends to hire people like themselves. And I get them all nodding, including the African-Americans in the audience."

He went on to talk about a consultant who runs political campaigns in Washington. The consultant was kept on to hire the staff for one of his candidates who won a city council race. "In the first staff meeting before the guy took office, they looked around and said, `Oh-oh.' Everyone was male, and everyone was African-American."

This was a softer Dean than the one excoriated by his competitors for the Democratic presidential nomination for saying he wanted to appeal to white guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks. For all the fire of that moment, Dean said the Democrats cannot run away from a blunt, if gently blunt, discussion about race.

[mbali]

1. This is hardly "blunt talk about race"

It's just another example of Dean's failure to really understand the issue. I and many others are growing weary of hearing him use gender as the foundation for talk about race. Race and gender issues are very different. He would make a lot more headway - and sound considerably more insightful - if he didn't always lump race together with gender as if he doesn't have any other frame of reference.

[stickdog]

15. Wrong. It's an extremely potent parable that clearly illustrates why

we still need affirmative action.

And it even works on angry white men. Try it sometime.

[poopyjr]

2. Dean talks about race and the South like it's a 3rd world country

Dean still thinks it's 1968.

[Scott Lee]

3. Careful there

The way the South has become, especially as a political voter base for the fascists in control, make it a valid target for such attacks.

Notwithstanding, Dean is right to reach out to the people in the South that he did - and he has some success to show for it. He leads Clark in the region by about 3 to 1.

[poopyjr]

4. No, "undecided" wins the South

Most people down there aren't even paying attention.

[HFishbine]

23. It's college basketball season

We're a little pre occupied. We'll just leave it up to ya'll yankees. Let us know what you decide.

[Leilani]

58. Go Blue Devils!

[SW FL Dem]

60. We're big Duke basketball fans here! n/t

[BootinUp]

11. Preposterous...

Dean does not lead Clark by a huge margin in the South. The polls show a tight race SC, FL.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/polls_State_Polls_04.html

I have only seen one poll for Georgia, I think its a little soon to call that for Dean.

[Phelan]

66. Only poll done in Alabama I am familiar with

is the University of South Alabama poll.
and according to that Clark is leading, now of course I could be wrong and Alabama is not a southern state.

[Turkw]

68. If this is what you think and say about the south, no wonder we dems have

a hard time winning here.

[bearfartinthewoods]

73. show me something that says he leads bush and i'll listen....

[stickdog]

16. No. He's has figured out EXACTLY how to explain to "angry white men"

everywhere why we "still" need affirmative action.

Why does this bother you?

[mbali]

17. Oh really?

How has Howard Dean explained to angry white men why we still need affirmative action? Please be specific.

And how have angry white men responded? Have they changed their minds and now support affirmative action?

[BootinUp]

18. LOL! n/t

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mbali]

28. You can't possibly be serious. n/t

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BootinUp]

32. There's nothing wrong with the story

It's just that it oversimplifies the problem greatly. I don't think telling that story is going to get a lot of converts to Affirmative Action. Generally people believe they do not discriminate, and a lot of Americans believe that looking for a certain type of employee (like in the story) would be discrimination. Stories like this are good to get people thinking about it though.

[qwlauren35]

76. If I may attempt....

there is some concern in our (black) community that Dean's "honest talk about race" starts and stops with Affirmative Action, but doesn't really address the myriad of racial issues that actually impact African Americans. Health and criminal justice issues, for example.

There is concern that Dean is out of touch with racial realities and their complexity, especially as they collide with issues of class and poverty.

So, while Dean is having this "conversation" with white folks about Affirmative Action, it's not clear to black folks that Dean is prepared to deliver serious solutions to America's racial problems.

For example, there are some black folks who believe that if a white man is for the death penalty, then he has nothing to offer our community; some people feel that strongly that the death penalty is racially biased and used as an excuse to commit genocide. As you can see, Affirmative Action doesn't address this issue directly. (There would be an indirect benefit in a significant increase in black judges, but this isn't what is seen by the people making these statements.)

So, I think, in summary, that some black folks get mad at the suggestion that a talk about Affirmative Action to angry white guys is equivalent to a candidate who advocates across the broad spectrum of racial ills that plague our society.

[mbali]

78. Thank YOU!!! n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

5. I think this is an improvement

Dean is progressive on the issue of race, I never doubt that. We can debate comfort levels, experience working with minorities, all that stuff. Being from Vermont does not work to Dean's advantage in that regard, but it's not because of anything he is, or what he believes in. The ability to use humor while addressing a potentially charged issue is a good thing.

[mbali]

6. I don't have a problem with Dean's comment

my problem is that he seems to regularly address race in the context of gender - e.g., "I sure know how hard it is to be black in America 'cause I know this woman who gets paid less than a man" - and seems to believe that the issues are the same.

But I have an even bigger problem with constantly being told that Dr. Dean is talking "bluntly" about race or that he's doing something that no other white politician does. As I've said before, what Dean is saying about race isn't particularly innovative, progressive or even interesting. He's really just talking in bromides that mean very little. This is even more annoying in light of his record of never having done anything important on race or to advance the cause of civil rights for blacks (yes, yes, I know all about his signing a civil unions bill in Vermont - that's altogether different).

[Tom Rinaldo]

13. You do have a point

About the special trumpeting of his "leadership" on race issues part. It is good that he is paying attention to the need for a now National Democratic Party leader to directly acknowedge and address the crucial importance of racial justice and equality in America, that is what he should do. He deserves credit for doing just that, but no bonus points yet.

[mbali]

14. Exacceraccaly n/t

[stickdog]

19. "Dr. Dean is not Ghandi or Jesus."

No, he's not.

But he's found an effective way to communicate the need for affirmative action to "angry white men." So what if it's a bromide. It works. I've personally seen it work on dozens of "angry white men" when I told the same story while going door to door.

Why does this bother you?

You do realize that affirmative action. like guns, is a deal breaking issue for a large percentage of white, male "Reagan Dems" who've been brainwashed into blaming their lot on race jealousy, don't you?

[mbali]

29. So, you've converted dozens of angry white men

into supporters of Affirmative Action?

Wow! Maybe YOU should run for something. Just think of how many angry white men you can help see the light if you took this to a higher level.

Of course, it could be that they were just trying to get you off of their doorsteps. But it's worth a try anyway.

Thank God we have people like you and Howard Dean who can step in and clean up the mess made by those wacky, ignorant civil rights pioneers and their progeny who have devoted their lives to the fighting for equal opportunity but only screwed up everything so bad with their "educated drivel." As a black woman, I am so grateful to you and the good doctor for teaching us all about how affirmative action should be addressed and for showing us the right way to fix the race problem in America.

You are so good to us!

[stickdog]

31. Sorry, but it takes a white male like me to get through to these people.

But since my efforts aren't politically correct enough for you, I guess I'll have to leave the job to you and other women of color.

Good luck.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

40. Let's deconstruct a bit here, shall we?

It's your obnoxious, condescending attitude, sanctimonious lectures and ignorant assumptions that are the problem.


Pot meet kettle. Don't you think you'd be taken a bit more seriously if you actually pointed out my supposed "ignorant assumptions" rather than simply declaring them such from on high?


It's great that you're trying to address the problem but, contrary to your way of thinking, you have not discovered the holy grail of race relations that no one has ever figured out before.


OK. This is known as a strawman argument. I fully realize that Howard Dean isn't Ghandi or Jesus, and I'm not God's gift to race relations. However, his little bromide actually has the perfect punchline to get through to its intended audience -- angry white males. And it works. Despite your omniscient assertions to the contrary, I've seen it work.

So tell me clearly, just what do you have against it? Why are you against something that often works when presented to its intended audience? Are the differences between racism and sexism really more critical than finding a simplistic, clear and emotionally unladen way to explain the need for affirmative action?

Or perhaps you've developed or encountered another one paragraph illustration that you feel explains the need for affirimative action to angry white males far more effectively? Because I'd love to hear it, as it could definitely come in handy.


That is why your comments - and attacks on those who have been working their asses of on this issue for decades - reflect so badly on your candidate and will make it much more difficult for people to get enthusiastically behind him if he is the nominee.


Start over. Read the thread from the beginning. Then ask yourself who is attacking whom.


Instead of posturing, lecturing and pontificating about race and civil rights, you and the good Doctor should try listening and learning more about the issue. That will get you much farther than the almost laughably arrogant attitudes you've expressed in this thread.


Yes, we often see in others what we hate most about ourselves.

[stickdog]

41. Yes, women's civil rights & homosexual's civil rights are so ENTIRELY

different from racial civil rights that we can't possibly use an example of one to illustrate something about another.

[HFishbine]

42. That's just a tactic

It may not be the way the issue ressonatess with you, but it's one way of getting it to ressonate with some people. Let's try to look at the big picture, what a Dean White House would mean for minorities, and not get caught up in the minutae of the process. Give him a chance, you'll see.

[mbali]

55. Minorities are quite aware of what a Dean White House

would mean for us. But thanks for trying to point it out to us.

[takebackthewh]

7. Irritating

Lefty as I am, I kinda resented his stance that whites are the ones who have to make all the accomodations in order to improve race relations. I mean, you know, there are a few things that blacks could do too that would make it easier.

And if this statement rubbed me the wrong way, how do you think it is going to go over with the white Southern rednecks that he is trying to attract?

Does anyone agree with me here, or am I way off base?

[stickdog]

20. Do you support affirmative action? Dean's little bromide is directed

toward those you do not -- generally "angry white males."

I'm only asking because you have shown one of their symptoms.

[takebackthewh]

36. Yes

I support AA.

I'm concerned about the crime issue, though, as you can see in a nearby post.

[mbali]

34. What can blacks do to make it easier? n/t

[takebackthewh]

35. Mainly ...

... address their crime rate?

Possibly?

I don't want to start a big quarrel here. I'm just answering the question honestly. I've been mugged or attacked three times in my life, and, sorry to say, the perpetrators were always black.

If this turns into a big flame, I'm ducking out. It was not my intention to get into this issue.

I just don't think Dean's comments on race are going to go over very well with anybody.

##

[mbali]

37. I agree that the crime rate can and should be addressed

but that's not going to solve the race problem in America. Angry white men oppose affirmative action, not because they fear being the victim of a black criminal (which in and of itself is irrational since statistics show that white people are far more likely to be preyed upon by other white people than by blacks), but because they fear losing what they see as the advantage conferred upon them because of the color of their skin. Affirmative action and crime are two totally separate and distinct things.

Every single black criminal could be eliminated and we'd still have race issues in this country since racism and discrimination are not precipitated by any wrongdoing by blacks but by racism (anecdotal and institutional), negative stereotypes and discrimination that has long been ingrained in this society.

And while I would never discount your own personal experiences, please also know that: 1) while crime rates are disproportionate, the majority of violent crime is committed by whites; 2)the crime rate is directly proportional to lack of education, poverty and other issues that impact the black community, much of it the result of institutional racism in America - all of these issues must be addressed in order to effectively deal with the crime rate; and 3) while the crime rate in the black community is higher than in the white community, the common denominator is not race, but economics and education.

So while crime is a serious problem, it is not unique to the black community and won't be fully dealt with until we deal with other society problems that are intertwined with it. In other words, I don't think that most white bigoted white people are bigots because of concerns about black crime. To the contrary, concern about black crime is often used as an excuse to justify bigoted views.

[takebackthewh]

38. Your arguments

are logical. But when a guy gets mugged three times -- even a guy as lefty as me -- he doesn't think logical so much. He just tends to get pissed, and then he has to fight to rein in his emotions and keep working for what is right in America.

A drop in the black crime rate would go a long, long way toward improving race relations in this country, IMO.

Just my 2 cents.

[mbali]

39. I understand how you feel

but I don't agree that a drop in the crime rate would do any good since racism, in my view, is not based upon the black crime rate. Racism has been around for centuries and has nothing to do with any wrongdoing by blacks.

Of course, a drop in the black crime rate would eliminate one of the excuses that some white people use to justify their racism. But they would just find something else to blame it on.

In my view racism is the problem, crime is an unfortunate symptom and a convenient excuse. We need to address the root causes of racism - fear, ignorance, frustration, scarce resources, and America's longstanding pact with white men that, in return for supporting a political structure that often gives them crumbs, they'd always have someone to look down on.

[bread_and_roses]

43. Succinct and on-target

I think about how our inner cities are comparable to third world countries in heath and life expectancy data, about the incarceration rate of black men, and about the HIV/AIDS epidemic among African Americans - and I wonder just what Dean's comments have to do with any of that? Or for that matter, what ANY of the major candidates are proposing that has any bearing on the injustice and oppression that we refuse to even see anymore? It is not even on the radar screen...instead, we have candidates appealing to Confederate Flag Wavers...a particularly egregious example of ignoring just exactly who has paid and is paying the price for our racism.

[mbali]

54. I dont know about the others

but John Edwards has produced a comprehensive Urban Agenda that addresses these problems. Unfortunately, it hasnt gotten a lick of media attention. Among other things, the plan provides for bringing jobs and capital to the inner city, improving urban schools, increasing access to quality housing, making cities safer, protecting civil rights, pursuing environmental justice, and eliminating racial disparities in and improving health care.

So, it's on his radar screen - it's just not on the press radar screen, so they don't cover it. I guess it's only interesting if Dean says it or if it involves someone criticizing Dean. Otherwise, it goes unmentioned.

Here's a link: http://www.johnedwards2004.com/page.asp?id=308

[bread_and_roses]

57. Thanks for that info

those are good start proposals. And of course, you're right...the Press is far more interested in the horse race than in anything substantive.

[mbali]

59. No problem . . .

It's really a shame that the media is covering so little of the substance of the campaign, isn't it?

[qwlauren35]

74. It's all Buried

Howard Dean has put together a comprehensive plan for addressing African-American health issues, including AIDS, and capped it by pointing out the need for more black doctors. It's a very good plan.

Not to take anything from Edwards. All I'm saying is that many of the candidates have put thought into how to address some of the most critical issues of our times, but if it's not a sound bite, you won't know about it without doing some serious digging. The meaty stuff that Dean's people come up with doesn't get all that much more play than anyone else's.

We only learn the good things that these candidates have to offer through rigorous study. I'm coming to believe that at least 1/3 of the Democratic candidates are almost indistinguishable in their positions and beliefs and unfortunately, they are being forced to run based on personality and media manipulation.

Personally, I like a lot of the stuff that the Dean team has developed in terms of racial policies. However, I haven't seen nearly as much focus on "urban issues" and I think Edwards has him there. I could point you to some of the stuff on-line, but if your mind is made up, I'll skip it for now. If need be, I'll dig it up in July, and then again, in July, it may not matter! :-)

[revcarol]

8. More wishy-washy.

Not talking "bluntly." He should do more listening to actual black people, then talk.

[Hep]

10. Why do you think he hasn't

listened to black people?

[stickdog]

22. Exactly. Dean needs to take a tip form Kucinich, Kerry & Clark.

They know just how to work that negro mojo:

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

[Fixated]

9. He got it totally wrong

Dealing with race is about educating white folks," Dean said in an interview Tuesday on a campaign swing through the first primary state where African-American voters will have a major impact.

You've got to be kidding me. How could he actually think that?

[mbali]

12. Because it's all about white folks,

don't you know?

Dean reminds me of the pattern in Hollywood of producing films that view every civil rights and race issue through the eyes of white characters: The Long Walk Home, Biko, Glory, Ghosts of Mississippi, etc. Instead of portraying black experiences, they always tend to present the issues through the prism of white people, showing how they were transformed by the experience.

DeWayne Wickham had a great column on this a couple of days ago in USA Today, in response to the announcement that producers are planning to do a film about a white reporter's crusade to bring out the truth about Strom Thurmond's black daughter - once again making the black woman and her struggle a subplot secondary to the white woman's journey and ultimate triumph. "Hollywood can't bring itself to make a movie about the harm that the bad acts of some white people had on a black person without leaning over backward to attach a white hero to the story."

This is the attitude that Howard Dean seems to reveal. Apparently, to him and many others, issues of race have no resonance unless it's analyzed through the prism of how it impacts white people. And Dean seems to think that he can convince us that he should be the one and only emissary who can carry the message to White America.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/wickham/2003-12-30-wickham_x.htm

[corporatewhore]

44. But But But ....if we dont have a white guy to stick up for us and

our issues they are not legitamite.

Just for the record howard aint the first nor the last

[AP]

49. I've made this same point, and I totally agree.

The phenomenon in Hollywood is: god forbid that a black character has a character development and an emotional arc.

Dean plays into that same theme. He's making it all about how the white man feels.

Just look at what he claims the solution to the problem is: change your subconscious feelings about hiring preferences and all the problems will be solved. Just like the white character in Monster's Ball: you're a hero, and you make a huge accomplishment just by changing the way you feel. If you were a racist, but you know like to eat chocolate ice cream, hooray for you!


(I should note, for the sake of fairness, that I heard this criticism of Kill Bill, but I didn't really see it in Kill Bill. However, it is in many many other Hollywood movies which claim to be about race.)

[BootinUp]

51. Not to get too far off topic

it always kinda irritates me when people short shrift that movie. (As a white guy married to a black woman for 15 yrs). Maybe you could tell me more about what you don't like about it sometime.

As for Dean, the problem as I see it, is you can't change stripes in the blink of a campaign so to speak. He needs a few credentials to go along with stump speeches.

[AP]

52. Which movie? Kill Bill or Monster's Ball?

[BootinUp]

53. Monster's ball

[AP]

61. What's that movie about?

It's a about a white guy who goes from being a racist to not being an asshole racist, but not clearly understanding anything about race.

Racism is a complicated set of relationships between people which is cultural, economic, civic, family, political, etc.

But, for this movie, it comes down to absolute zero understanding of the comlicated downard and outward economic redistribution of wealth. As for the other things, they're sort of encapsulated in the notion that this guy is now willing to fuck a black woman (and notice the stereotypes of black women: bad mothers entirely driven by id ("I just want to feel good...make me feel good")).

That's what racial understanding is all about?

Notice that in this movie about race, the black character has no emotional arc. The movie is all about how black people impact on the white man's life. This is the same plot as the navy diver movie with Cuba Gooding and DeNiro.

We celebrate white people who suddenly decide that they're no longer going to be assholes, and then pretend that is some kind of huge achievement. That's what Dean advocates: the last frontier of race relations isn't in civil rights legislation. It's in changing our subconscious feelings. So if a white guy is willing to have sex with a black woman, that's doing something significant about race relations?

I'll tell you what a real achievement is: accepting that a downward and outward redistribution of economic, cultural, and political power is good for everyone who isn't in the top .5% of society, and even if it means a black person might benefit from a little affirmative action in the process. However, you're never going to see any big hollywood movies that are about anything but an upward and narrowing distribution of power. And they use these stupid movies "about" race to confuse people into thinking that things like that aren't an important part of solving the problem of racism.

[BootinUp]

62. It was about

A personal relationship, and two screwed up families, not really about race relations in America or how to solve those problems. Obviously it was a statement about the destructiveness of hate and racism was just thrown in for good measure(the grandfather).

When I watch that movie I think you could replace the black family with a poor white family without really changing the story. I think the writer is challenging us to look at it like that. So its a story about two people in pain and race doesn't matter so much for them. I don't think the writer made any attempt to show race relations on broader scale, that just wasn't what he/she wrote about. Anyways just my take.

One other comment is I didn't see the black woman as a bad mother, or the white guy as a hero.

thanks for taking the time to answer, this movie isn't that important anyways. I probably should have let it go.

bye for now

[AP]

63. The movie was definitely about race.

Remember Mos Def's character? Remember how Thornton's character treets his kids?

Also, remember the flavor ice cream Thornton likes in the last scene? It's chocolate.

Also, the sex scene ("make me feel good") relies on all the cliches about the black welfare mother. And she was a bad mother -- she couldn't stop her son from eating junk food, and he ended up getting hit by a car because she couldn't provide for him.

The movie isn't about two people. When a movie is about someone, that person gets an emotional arc. Only Thornton's character got an emotional arc. Haley's character just went straight down, and her suffering enobled Thornton. The more she suffered, the better a person Thornton was. He got the arc. He became a person different from the person he was at the start of the film.

As mbali says, this is what Hollywood films about race do: black people aren't economic slaves to white characters. They're emotional slaves. The white characters use black characters to, first, hate them, and then learn not to hate them, and then celebrate themselves for changing their FEELINGS and ATTITUDES but not much more than that.

In your private life do you reward yourself for not being an asshole? Not being an asshole (eg, a racist) is the minimum you ask of people in our society. However, Hollywood manages to make entire movies about white men who do this. (Incidentally, take out the race angle, replace it with gender, and cast Jack Nicholson, and then you have the sexism equivalent of what these racism movies do: they celebrate white men for deciding not to be an asshole).

[BootinUp]

64. Only secondarily

The racism was there of course, he, Thornton, was raised by a man that hated his wife, the world, and blacks too. Did the problem with the son have anything to do with race? No.

I think you missed the point of this movie.

The Halle Berry character was a bad mother only if you blame her for being uneducated, and working for peanuts, and marrying a criminal. People in situations like her character do exist. We don't know much about this characters life, but we do know she seemed to be struggling to keep it together, not just waiting for a welfare check. I think the junk food overweight child thing indicates a problem, a problem she was having trouble controlling, not ignoring.

And the sex scene, I just think you ignore the lead up to that scene in the car. I don't connect sex scenes and welfare anyways. I must have missed that stereotype.

The images in this movie are strong, too strong for most people to watch without having some kind of reaction.

[AP]

72. A mother whose child dies because

she can't get a good job...a mother whose child is fat because she can't stop him from eating candy bars...the movie was telling us that she wasn't a great mother. She started the movie a mother, and ended the movie a woman without a child who has to move in with a guy she didn't really like because she had nowhere else to go...she started a mother and ended a prostitute.

The stereotype about people on welfare is they're driven by id. They do what feels good now, rather than what's good in the long term. The stereotype is that you do better if you delay gratification, but that people who are poor, they're problem is they just don't know how to delay gratification. That's what the sex scene was about. All Halle's character wanted to do was feel good.

Also, this movie is about family? This movie was taking very important issues like race, social and economic justice, etc. and PRETENDING that they can be wrapped up in the neat little package of family, and pretending that government doesn't have deal with these things BECAUSE they're purely within the realm of family.

This movie was VERY conservative. There is a cultural phenomenon these days which tries to break down liberalism into a bunch of smaller uworkable, contradictory subcategories which ultimately work against the larger goals of liberalism (which are, bascially, a downward and outward flow of cutural, economic, political power). This movie is a good example of that kind of phenomenon. Because it has black and white characters having sex with each other and seems to address things like rural poverty and nowhere lives, it looks like it's shedding light on things liberals care about.

However, scratch the surface and you have a movie that's telling you lies about how race, social justice, economic justice, etc., work in America.

This is VERY similar to Dean's campaign, if you ask me. It's going to be the death of liberalism, and help pro-corporatism, and the upward redistribution of wealth succeed.

[BootinUp]

75. I think you have to admit

when you are talking about cultural phenomenons that these things are open to debate. You are basically constructing a vast if unconscious conspiracy theory. I think you should judge the work on its own merits and not connect it to cultural phenomenons.

I can see where some people would accept the characterization you describe. It is my feeling that one must have a predisposition to see it that way. It is a fact that despite working in a job, which this character was, many people are still in poverty. Most Americans understand that I believe. I agree this movie wasn't trying to change anyones mind as to why she was in difficulty. And that seems to be the brunt of your problem with it. Maybe you should look at it as neutral on that point, after all we all have weaknesses, we are all human and both characters were at a point of despair basically.

[mbali]

65. Bam!

You nailed it!

[stickdog]

24. Exactly! Everybody knows that the only effective way to deal with race

issues is to punish its victims more severely!

[corporatewhore]

46. now who exactly are the victims?

[bitchkitty]

21. I love this man -

I LOVE THIS MAN! Can you see Bush having a discussion about race? To Bush, good race relations mean being nice to the maid.

[windansea]

25. cluelessly pre-Clinton

"Dealing with race is about educating white folks." Howard Dean seems to have said this. That'll bring in those Southern pickup guys! They love being singled out for 'education'! ... Yes, Dean was apparently pandering to Boston Globe columnist Derrick Z. Jackson. But that's hardly an excuse. Try to imagine Bill Clinton uttering the same sentence. It's pretty difficult. For one thing, Clinton was too smart a politician. And one of Clinton's major (and heavily-advertised) virtues was his occasional willingness to speak unpleasant truths to both whites and blacks. Here's Clinton talking at the Waldorf-Astoria in New York a few days after the 1992 Rodney King riots in Los Angeles:

"Can we live in a country where too many people think that violence has a black face, that is, what is consistent either with their experiences or with they see on the news or the fact that they don't have any friends of other races. And where too many black people know that violence too often has a black face because it is their children who are shot, their schools which are savaged, their new neighborhoods which are war zones and they believe no one will make their streets safe simply because they are black."

I would say Clinton was not merely "educating white folks" in this passage--it's from a speech in which he'd just responded to the King riots by saying "we must break the culture of poverty and dependence" and nobody thought he was talking only or even mainly about a culture of "white folks." Does Dean really believe you can talk honestly about race--including "hiring practices"--without talking about that culture (even though it enmeshes only a minority of African-Americans, and even though, thanks in part to the welfare reform Clinton signed, it's rapidly changing for the better)? I'm sure there are better Clinton examples I don't have handy.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2093295/

[stickdog]

27. Thank God Clinton solved the race problem in America, and now there's

no reason whatsoever to try to educate any "angry white males" on the need for affirimative action!

[bread_and_roses]

45. Clinton's welfare "reform"

was fueled by racism. And I believe he is much too intellegent a man not to know it. It was the lowest point of his Presidency. It is not only savagely harsh on the neediest and most vulnerable among us, it undermines the wage floor for low-income workers by destroying even the totally inadequate "safety net" that had existed for at least mothers and children.

[KaraokeKarlton]

48. Not all "welfare reform" is created equal

Vermont did welfare reform in a way that is really great for those receiving assistance. I know this from first hand experience because I was receiving welfare through the reforms. Before the reforms welfare was a trap. I'd get a job and wouldn't qualify for assistance anymore. Things would go okay for a little while and then my car would break down or I couldn't afford daycare or my sitter would quit and I lacked the resources to deal with those problems. I'd always end up having to give up the job and go back on welfare. It was awful. Then the reforms came. What a Godsend they were! Vermont came up with a program that is just awesome. I went in and met with my worker and we spent a coupld of hours coming up with a plan specific to me based on my desires, barriers, skills and what support I would need. I didn't lose that support when I got a job. The welfare program worked in conjunction with the Dept of Employment and Training so that people still had support for barriers for a full year after going to work. Subsidized childcare, Vermont's state health care programs, assistance with transportation issues, even college if you want it. People aren't thrown off assistance if they have any reason at all why they can't work. And the barriers all get addressed on an individual basis. If it weren't for welfare reform I would still be stuck in that God Awful trap. Sometimes it's still a little rough at times, but I haven't had to get any kind of help for quite a long time now, and I love that!

[AP]

50. Clinton's whole plan was to appease and let the benefits expire when Gore

was president, so that Gore could reinstate them.

Clinton knew he was going to give the US a better economy so that his welfare reforms wouldn't hurt anyone so long as he was president. Not proud of him, but I'm not sure how he could have won this battle and could have given us a fairer economy.

[angee_is_mad]

47. RIGHT ON!!!!!

[mbali]

56. Kick

[arewethereyet]

67. its presumptouous for Dr Dean to presch to southerners about race

we've been living this all our lives down here, its something he only sees on TV.

Just another reason that Dr Dean in not the guy.

[mbali]

69. But you don't understand

Dr. Dean knows just how to talk to you people. He's figured out a way to communicate with you that will help you understand why civil rights is something you should support (since we know that none of you do).

Thank God for Howard Dean - the black man's savior.

[arewethereyet]

70. Laudie laudie thank God and Jesus !

finally a yankee who can ejikate us po dumb rednecks.

If only we had been born rich and white in the great white north maybe we would have been able to get this sorted out sooner.

Tell you what, when up north gets their act together regarding race relations then we'll listen up. Till then they might consider seeing what we've done down here as a start of their own.

Fair ?

[mbali]

71. Fair? I don't know -

Let's wait for Dr. Dean to tell us whether it's the right thing to do. After all, he has all the answers.

[NV1962]

77. Two things taken from that Boston Globe article

From this snippet:

The last Democrat in the White House, Bill Clinton, who was hugely popular with African-American voters, started a national discussion on race but abandoned it during the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Clinton also never challenged Republican-inspired laws that had a disastrous impact on young African-Americans and Latinos, such as mandatory sentencing and much harsher jail terms for possession of crack cocaine than for powdered cocaine.

• That's another fly-by-night victim of the Lewinsky bait-and-switch operation... Important things get buried, and too often we let it happen. Just an observation from the Dôh! category that I wanted to state, nonetheless.
  
• I'm afraid that racial edges of law enforcement, and the tremendously rigging effect of the crack cocaine v. powdered cocaine sentencing imbalance is a tremendously sad example, can cut deep into efforts to "reach out for the angry white males." It's been said before, that crime is a hot button - but crime and victims aren't the sole factor in the equation. The justice/legal system, the penitentiary system (yes, Huffington's Prison-Industrial-Complex comes to mind here, too) and the pretty much absent post-penitentiary (follow-up) caregivers play a major, major role as well. Speaking of the "follow up" bit - it's uncanny to see how often people accept, without much discussion, the simultaneous coexistence as somehow "normal facts" that an immense population behind prison bars, and a widely adopted personnel selection system don't make sense when the latter excludes the former. In the end, you're creating a massive population that, once excarcerated, has little wiggle room (and less prospect of success) standing between them and the gate, back in.

And then there's a host of other issues... Single (teen) moms, for another example.

I guess what I'm meandering towards is the idea that an appeal to "angry white males" isn't going to cut it - not when the wooing sounds are accompanied by the battlecries that predictably follow salutes to the Confederate Flag.

I absolutely don't question Howard Dean's sincerity or his motives; I see no reason whatsoever to do that, and reject any suggestion to the contrary. However, it's his chosen "method" that leaves not entirely convinced; I think that if one choses to publicly raise the issues of race and gender inequality as a debate item in a presidential bid, at least a fairly proficient ability to "connect" or communicate ideas to address them, even if only in a "subliminal" manner, should be expected of the candidate. Because otherwise, it'll be a firestarter with dire projection.

Resorting to (or hoping on the escape route of) "well at least I tried" isn't enough - simply because it is such a painful and incendiary issue.

That'd be my honestly well-meant advice.