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Insanity on DU notwithstanding, it's probably better if Hillary stays in

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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 01:40 AM
Original message
Insanity on DU notwithstanding, it's probably better if Hillary stays in
through June. I have a feeling Obama probably welcomes it.

1. It shows he earned the nomination fair and square and that it wasn't handed to him, perhaps as an "affirmative action" type of deal where the party elders convinced Hillary to concede to him.

2. He's been raising so much money as a result of the ongoing battle, it more than makes up for the money he has to spend to continue campaigning against Hillary.

3. He gets free press every day, a lot more than McCain's getting.

4. People in the remaining states are excited 'cause they actually get to help decide the nomination for once. This increases voter registration and probably helps him in the fall.

5. It's extremely unlikely that there will be a convention battle. Once the last vote is counted, the superdelegates are likely to endorse en masse to prevent this from occurring. Once it's clear he has the nomination locked up, Hillary will not be able to resist the pressure to concede.

6. The negative attacks - some of them aren't really coming from Hillary and they'd be coming from the proxies of McCain whether she were still in the race or not. The ones that are coming from her - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and besides it's better to get things aired now while there's time for them to fade.

7. "Providing ammo" - let's be real, anything the Hillary campaign can dig up, the McCain campaign can also dig up and will dig up. Probably their die-hard supporters will do it for free and so it doesn't cost them anything either way.

8. McCain getting a free ride - guess what folks, spring and summer is not when it matters. McCain can be up in the polls all he wants right now. What'll matter is down the home stretch. Let him peak early, it won't matter in October and November.

9. Party divided - see #5. Five months from June to November is plenty of time for us to come together again. It sucks that people are being alienated right now but they'll probably remember they're Democrats once they hear the crap McCain's dishing out (and the revelations that are sure to come out about McCain as well.) If the prospects of a McCain administration covering up for Bush/Cheney, continuing the war, appointing Supreme Court nominees that'll try to overturn Roe vs Wade, etc etc don't do it, then I guess our country will now have that third party some have been wishing for. Me, I don't see it happening this year.

10. Obama just looks more and more presidential the longer he withstands negative attacks from a fellow Democrat without lowering himself to the same level.

So I do NOT call for Hillary Clinton to drop out, and I'm hoping that the many Obama supporters here on DU who ARE calling for it will read this post with an open mind and consider ending your calls for an early exit. It only raises the rhetoric level and IMO makes us look bad.

Peace
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. I cringed clicking on this thread, but you make a number of excellent points.
Thanks.

NGU.


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ThatBozGuy Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Here here
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. you make a list of possible positives but they don't outweigh the negatives
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Ok, give me your top 10 list of negatives
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. Agreed.
Keep fighting, Hillary, all the way to his nomination!
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
6. The longer this goes on
the more committed people become to their candidate and the less likely they are to vote for the nominee because they will be bitter. The process of letting go and realizing that their candidate isn't going to win needs to happen, sooner rather than later. It's time to end this.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. That's probably the most persuasive reason on the other side.
Edited on Tue Mar-25-08 02:08 AM by FlyingSquirrel
However. I was pretty attached to Edwards, and it only took me about 6 weeks to really get over it and move on. Most (not all) Edwards supporters seem to have done the same. I agree it'll probably take much longer for Hillary supporters - perhaps even 3 times as long - which is why a Convention battle would be devastating. But if she loses fair and square, without being forced out, and with a reasonably fair resolution to the MI/FL problem, I think most of them will be able to accept it in 4 to 5 months' time or sooner. Not be happy, perhaps, but at least willing to hold their nose and mark their ballot.
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
28. The race has also become more and more racially polarized.
which benefits neither of the candidates. The longer this goes on, the more we can look forward to the media talking about whether Obama can get whites and Clinton can get blacks....and eventually it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, that will carry over into the GE.
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
34. totally agree
I was heartbroken to see Edwards drop out and it took me about two weeks to mend and start supporting Obama.

With how entrenched the Hillary camp has become, this process will take time. The longer this goes, the less chance they'll accept the prospect of an Obama presidency.

I don't like the idea of it, but the supers need to end this now. A swift stroke to unify the party and start the healing process. It's time to reach out to the Hillary supporters and find common ground.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
33. Should have thought of that before you did to HC what the repukes did
to Bill, Al, and John.

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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
7. While Some Of Your Points Are Somewhat Persuasive...
I would like to think my vote here in PA will be the one that ends it for Hillary and gives Obama the nomination.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Well it could.
And if I were in PA I might be thinking the same thing. I am certainly hoping Obama makes up a lot of ground there, but not necessarily to force Clinton to drop out - more because we need PA in November and I want to see a lot of Obama support there.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. Rec.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. people forcing Hillary to get out would not go over well
Kennedy, Hart, Brown, Jackson, etc al stayed in. they had less of a chance than Clinton (although with California at the end back then, perhaps not all that different).

one thing i would love, but that won't happen is for Hillary and Obama to debate McCain separately and we'll see who does better. also i would like Hillary to explain why she would be a better president than McCain so that the only counter to that argument would be Obama saying why he would in fact be better. Put the focus on McCain. However, Obama can't do that if Hillary is beating him up, so she's got to stop and that tactic will not win her the nomination anyway. Nevertheless a spirited assault by her on McCain would help both Democrats and might revive more interest in her candidacy. Also, if she was doing that, pressure to get out would be a heck of a lot less.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. OMG a cogent, well thought out response
that actually brought up interesting ideas I hadn't thought of! I may have to add you to my buddy list or something.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. hey thanks
but you know...broken clock, etc. etc. :hi:
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. The problem with your examples...
That happened in a different time. Americans weren't paying near as much attention to the primary season as they are today. With the internet, 24 hour cable television and nightly news dominating with this story, Americans see this battle play out on their television every single day. Back in the 1980s, they probably heard a 60 second clip on the primaries during their nightly news reports.

I do agree with your last point, though, Obama can try all he wants to make this about McCain, but if Clinton keeps focusing on Obama, it won't happen.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. It's kind of hard to be tough on McCain as he has been more gracious to Obama than HRC.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. McCain has, possibly, but his cronies haven't
I am pretty sure the Wright thing came from them. They want to be able to smear him and blame it on Hillary. Actually that's one other reason why it's perhaps not a good thing for her to still be in it - they can do some racist-type attacks and not have it come back on McCain. But overall I think the positives still outweight the negatives.

Anyway, as long as the McCain campaign itself doesn't get vicious, it'd be nice to see an actual Presidential campaign elevated above the crap this year. We don't play nasty as well as they do anyway. But the swift-boaters will do their thing, so it will have to be countered somehow.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
16. I disagree and I'll tell you why by going over your points.
Edited on Tue Mar-25-08 02:36 AM by Drunken Irishman
1. It shows he earned the nomination fair and square and that it wasn't handed to him, perhaps as an "affirmative action" type of deal where the party elders convinced Hillary to concede to him.


I think, even if she dropped out today, it will prove he earned the nomination fair and square. I do not think anyone can make a legitimate argument that the nomination has been handed to Obama. He's won the most states, has the most delegates and has the lead in the popular vote, if anyone at this time believes he stole the nomination, then they aren't going to change their views in 1, 2 or 3 months.

The problem, however, is the backlash that could come from this. It was only a month ago where most here and in the media were talking about how Democrats could get along with EITHER candidate. Let's not forget the debate prior to Super Tuesday, where it was a love fest and they nearly cuddled right there on the stage. That was the high moment of this race and it's been a downward spiral ever since. A few more months of this will only continue to create a larger divide between Clinton and Obama supporters. Can the Democrats live through this?

2. He's been raising so much money as a result of the ongoing battle, it more than makes up for the money he has to spend to continue campaigning against Hillary.


The money won't dry up and Obama probably won't go as hard at McCain this early on like he has Clinton. Plus, it could open the doors to more money coming in from people who backed Clinton prior to her dropping out.

3. He gets free press every day, a lot more than McCain's getting.


He may be getting free press, however, free press could also be negative press and if he's being beat up on every single day by both Clinton and McCain, the free press turns into bad press rather quickly. I mean, McCain probably benefited from not being as scrutinized as Obama the past week, as the major Iraqi gaffe pretty much made minimal impact within the media. Obama's problems, however, were blasted from network to network and that seed of doubt has been planted, even if I don't think it will amount to much in the end. McCain, though, gets to sit back, prod Obama every so often and allow Clinton to bloody him to the point where he could be very vulnerable in the general. Not good.

4. People in the remaining states are excited 'cause they actually get to help decide the nomination for once. This increases voter registration and probably helps him in the fall.


Of course it helps, but at what cost? Even if she drags him down the point where Obama finally wins the nomination and he's 20 points down in the polls? Then, all those voters who registered, probably won't change the outcome of the election.

5. It's extremely unlikely that there will be a convention battle. Once the last vote is counted, the superdelegates are likely to endorse en masse to prevent this from occurring. Once it's clear he has the nomination locked up, Hillary will not be able to resist the pressure to concede.


I don't think there will be a convention battle, but there doesn't really need to be to tear the party apart. If this goes to the final contest, Clinton will most likely TAKE it to the convention. The media frenzy will be a joke and even if there isn't a battle, it will be played as the Democrats being in disarray. That is not the image to project if they are going to win in the general election. The fact is, it's doubtful Obama will have the delegates needed to become the presumptive nominee once voting is over. So this will go to Denver in that scenario and from there, even if there isn't a huge battle, still creates more division and makes it that much more difficult to repair, since now we'll only have a few short months instead of all summer leading up to the convention.

6. The negative attacks - some of them aren't really coming from Hillary and they'd be coming from the proxies of McCain whether she were still in the race or not. The ones that are coming from her - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and besides it's better to get things aired now while there's time for them to fade.


Some of them aren't coming from Hillary, however, if Obama is the nominee, the sooner Clinton can get out there and work her butt off for him, just as I think he would do if the roles were reversed. I have faith Democrats won't lose this election because of the swing votes, but because of the party division itself. The attacks, as you said, will continue, but if Democrats are attacking Democrats, there becomes an increasing gap between Obama and Clinton supporters. The more fighting and the longer this goes, the bigger the gap will grow and by the time it's over and Obama does become the nominee, it may be as wide as the Grand Canyon and too big to repair. That will cost them the election, not some swing votes that could be lost by an attack ad from McCain that will come regardless of how long Hillary is in the race.

7. "Providing ammo" - let's be real, anything the Hillary campaign can dig up, the McCain campaign can also dig up and will dig up. Probably their die-hard supporters will do it for free and so it doesn't cost them anything either way.


Like I said, the attacks aren't going to stop when Clinton leaves, but she can begin uniting the party behind Obama. She can campaign for him, stand up for him and ask her supporters to support him. However, in the voters' minds, it's far worse when people from the same party are going after one another. If this continues to turn bloody, it will make the Democratic Party split even worse than it is right now and that will be an issue in the general election.

8. McCain getting a free ride - guess what folks, spring and summer is not when it matters. McCain can be up in the polls all he wants right now. What'll matter is down the home stretch. Let him peak early, it won't matter in October and November.


Of course polls this far out don't mean crap, but they do lay the foundation for the tone of the race. How big will McCain's lead grow, can both Clinton and Obama continue leading McCain throughout the summer? What if the fighting gets so bad in the next couple of months that McCain actually builds a fairly comfortable lead heading into the convention? That would put the nominee at a major disadvantage. Like I said above, I do not fear McCain's attacks right now because they will come regardless. But if Democrats are split between two candidates and the hatred grows, they will not win the presidency. Divided they cannot stand and that's a big possibility if this thing continues into August at the level it's at right now.

9. Party divided - see #5. Five months from June to November is plenty of time for us to come together again. It sucks that people are being alienated right now but they'll probably remember they're Democrats once they hear the crap McCain's dishing out (and the revelations that are sure to come out about McCain as well.) If the prospects of a McCain administration covering up for Bush/Cheney, continuing the war, appointing Supreme Court nominees that'll try to overturn Roe vs Wade, etc etc don't do it, then I guess our country will now have that third party some have been wishing for. Me, I don't see it happening this year.


That's IF this thing ends in June, but Obama won't have the pledged delegates at the end of June to become the presumptive nominee. That means the superdelegates will have to put him over the top and while it's possible, I wouldn't bet on it just yet. Now while I have faith the voters will eventually return to the nominee, there is a chance it does not happen, especially after reading the vile on this board from both supporters. If the hatred we see on DU and Kos and Hillary is 44 and Taylor Marsh's blog, is typical of Democrats, then the Democrats ARE in trouble. These people really hate the opposing candidate and the continued infighting only makes them hate the other candidate even more.

10. Obama just looks more and more presidential the longer he withstands negative attacks from a fellow Democrat without lowering himself to the same level.


Sadly, that isn't the only thing that wins elections. He very well could look presidential and still may not have enough sway to win over 10% of the Democratic base that would've voted for him had it not been the ugly battle between him and Clinton. That could throw the election to McCain, especially if they decide to vote for him instead.

Look, I agree that some of your points are valid, but only to the point where I do not think a long race will ruin Obama. However, I do not think it will help him, either and in fact believe if Clinton dropped out tomorrow, he would be better off than if this went to June or the convention. I just do not see that happening, though.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. In addition to your number 1 point, I'd like to add that there is another factor to prevent people..
from thinking her dropping would be a gift to Obama. She's out of money. This allows her to save some face by saying "I just didn't have the resources to keep going" and prevents people from thinking she was forced out by bigwigs
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'll go one further, Clinton can begin laying the foundation for a graceful exit.
Edited on Tue Mar-25-08 02:55 AM by Drunken Irishman
And you know what? I think she kind of already is. I'll say this, Clinton hasn't been attacking Obama the past week like she was earlier in the month. I take that as a sign she's starting to realize the party needs to unite around him.

What she can do is begin subtly mending fences with Obama. She can start focusing on McCain, lessening her rhetoric toward Obama and then the Pennsylvania debate could be used as a way where both her and Obama can discuss how the campaign at times has gotten out of control, but in the end both are Democrats, both love their country, both deeply respect one another and both adamantly believe either would make a far better president than John McCain. They could use that moment -- like what we saw in LA -- as a time to unite and then stay with it. No more attacks, no more Shame On You Barack Obama comments and when the Pennsylvania results come in, she can announce that the money just is not there and that it is time for Democrats to unite behind a candidate. She can say America is far more important than just one candidacy and that this moment is ours to seize and that she will join Obama on his mission to change America.

Hillary goes out a winner and they both bridge the gap, allowing Obama and Hillary supporters to unite. We need to return to that moment in LA where everything felt right. Where every Democrat was proud of both Obama and Hillary. But if this goes on, if this pushes to June and then July and possibly August, I don't know how we get that moment back.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. I don't think she will drop out until after the NC primary
She will most likely winn Pennsylvania, but the question is how big the win will be. If it is close, she will most likely have to drop out after that. If it isn't, she will most likely continue running.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Ok, but then there'll still be naysayers
Edited on Tue Mar-25-08 03:39 AM by FlyingSquirrel
saying, "If she'd planned better and used her resources more wisely, she'd have beat him. He wasn't really the better candidate, she just screwed up and didn't budget well enough to compete in the final states." Having these naysayers around makes him look weaker.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Not really. There is no denying that both have put up a hell of a fight.
And having that "If she'd planned better and used her resources more wisely, she'd have beat him. He wasn't really the better candidate, she just screwed up." is better than the only alternatives which would be either 1) a protracted battle for delegates which she'll lose and which will be more of the shit we've seen for the last 2 weeks. or 2) an intervention by the supers to end the bleeding that could be spun as anti-populist.

The money situation is great because it prevents outsiders and the party from being blamed, while still not humiliating their candidate. She just didn't have the money.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Overall, I think that fear is not something we should be allowing to rule us
Edited on Tue Mar-25-08 03:19 AM by FlyingSquirrel
If Obama's really that vulnerable then perhaps we really do have the wrong candidate and that in itself would be a good reason for Hillary to stay in. I don't think he's that vulnerable and I think Hillary has too much support for us to say she should bow out now.

---

I think, even if she dropped out today, it will prove he earned the nomination fair and square. I do not think anyone can make a legitimate argument that the nomination has been handed to Obama. He's won the most states, has the most delegates and has the lead in the popular vote, if anyone at this time believes he stole the nomination, then they aren't going to change their views in 1, 2 or 3 months.

The problem, however, is the backlash that could come from this. It was only a month ago where most here and in the media were talking about how Democrats could get along with EITHER candidate. Let's not forget the debate prior to Super Tuesday, where it was a love fest and they nearly cuddled right there on the stage. That was the high moment of this race and it's been a downward spiral ever since. A few more months of this will only continue to create a larger divide between Clinton and Obama supporters. Can the Democrats live through this?



The bar seems to be higher for Obama than, as he calls it, "a conventional candidate". Some will still be saying that Hillary had the chance to win it in the remaining states and with half of MI/FL delegates. I'd rather have that put to rest completely than have any lingering doubts about his ability to close the deal floating around out there. As far as "Can the Democrats live through this?" goes, your average Dem is not the average Dem on DU. If it's clear he won, they'll accept it.

---

The money won't dry up and Obama probably won't go as hard at McCain this early on like he has Clinton. Plus, it could open the doors to more money coming in from people who backed Clinton prior to her dropping out.


I'll concede the point with the caveat that it's just not a big deal either way.

---

He may be getting free press, however, free press could also be negative press and if he's being beat up on every single day by both Clinton and McCain, the free press turns into bad press rather quickly. I mean, McCain probably benefited from not being as scrutinized as Obama the past week, as the major Iraqi gaffe pretty much made minimal impact within the media. Obama's problems, however, were blasted from network to network and that seed of doubt has been planted, even if I don't think it will amount to much in the end. McCain, though, gets to sit back, prod Obama every so often and allow Clinton to bloody him to the point where he could be very vulnerable in the general. Not good.


It's been said that "there's no such thing as bad publicity". Anything that puts Obama in front of the American people makes him more familiar to them and less easy for his opponents to demonize. He's very likeable. People who are gonna hate him will do so no matter what; independent-minded voters will weigh what's been alleged with his response, and he has the ability to win people over. I honestly think Clinton has not connected many jabs, much less "bloodied" him. It's the likes of Matt Drudge that are doing so.

---

Of course it helps, but at what cost? Even if she drags him down the point where Obama finally wins the nomination and he's 20 points down in the polls? Then, all those voters who registered, probably won't change the outcome of the election.


If that happened you'd be right. I see it as mostly an irrational fear though. If he were that far down in the polls he'd probably lose the nomination.

---

I don't think there will be a convention battle, but there doesn't really need to be to tear the party apart. If this goes to the final contest, Clinton will most likely TAKE it to the convention. The media frenzy will be a joke and even if there isn't a battle, it will be played as the Democrats being in disarray. That is not the image to project if they are going to win in the general election. The fact is, it's doubtful Obama will have the delegates needed to become the presumptive nominee once voting is over. So this will go to Denver in that scenario and from there, even if there isn't a huge battle, still creates more division and makes it that much more difficult to repair, since now we'll only have a few short months instead of all summer leading up to the convention.


As stated above, I think the superdelegates will recognize that a convention battle is not in our best interest and would quickly endorse one or the other after June 3. Even Hillary's supporters, your mainstream ones and not the most polarized here on DU, would be suggesting that she's fought a good fight but it's time to concede if Obama had the necessary delegates including endorsements.

---

Some of them aren't coming from Hillary, however, if Obama is the nominee, the sooner Clinton can get out there and work her butt off for him, just as I think he would do if the roles were reversed. I have faith Democrats won't lose this election because of the swing votes, but because of the party division itself. The attacks, as you said, will continue, but if Democrats are attacking Democrats, there becomes an increasing gap between Obama and Clinton supporters. The more fighting and the longer this goes, the bigger the gap will grow and by the time it's over and Obama does become the nominee, it may be as wide as the Grand Canyon and too big to repair. That will cost them the election, not some swing votes that could be lost by an attack ad from McCain that will come regardless of how long Hillary is in the race.


Somehow I can't picture either candidate "getting out there and working their butt off for the other candidate" at this point. They do both have Senate responsibilities that are on hold for this campaign, and their constituents will probably expect them to return to those responsibilities. Again, the gap is wider here on DU than among Dems in general who will accept the decision of the majority if it's seen as having been a fair contest. As long as this does not drag on past the early part of June there's plenty of time to come together.

---

Like I said, the attacks aren't going to stop when Clinton leaves, but she can begin uniting the party behind Obama. She can campaign for him, stand up for him and ask her supporters to support him. However, in the voters' minds, it's far worse when people from the same party are going after one another. If this continues to turn bloody, it will make the Democratic Party split even worse than it is right now and that will be an issue in the general election.


See above response - also she can ask her supporters to support him in June, it's soon enough. And again, I think the bloodiest things occurring are likely coming from the Repugs. June, June, June. Not later. I don't think this is something that must be "nipped in the bud" to prevent it from getting out of control; because there's a clear end and that's the last primary. I really don't think Hillary would be willing to risk the alienation that would occur if she did not respect the will of the voters. There are limits to what The Powers That Be in the Democratic Party will put up with.

---

Of course polls this far out don't mean crap, but they do lay the foundation for the tone of the race. How big will McCain's lead grow, can both Clinton and Obama continue leading McCain throughout the summer? What if the fighting gets so bad in the next couple of months that McCain actually builds a fairly comfortable lead heading into the convention? That would put the nominee at a major disadvantage. Like I said above, I do not fear McCain's attacks right now because they will come regardless. But if Democrats are split between two candidates and the hatred grows, they will not win the presidency. Divided they cannot stand and that's a big possibility if this thing continues into August at the level it's at right now.


Again, I think your fear is irrational. I agree August would be bad, disagree that waiting till June guarantees it'll drag out through August.

---

That's IF this thing ends in June, but Obama won't have the pledged delegates at the end of June to become the presumptive nominee. That means the superdelegates will have to put him over the top and while it's possible, I wouldn't bet on it just yet. Now while I have faith the voters will eventually return to the nominee, there is a chance it does not happen, especially after reading the vile on this board from both supporters. If the hatred we see on DU and Kos and Hillary is 44 and Taylor Marsh's blog, is typical of Democrats, then the Democrats ARE in trouble. These people really hate the opposing candidate and the continued infighting only makes them hate the other candidate even more.


He doesn't need the pledged delegates, he needs the overall delegates - that's the game. If a certain number of superdelegates endorses him after all have voted, that's good enough to call him the presumptive nominee. I think it'll happen because the superdelegates know it's important for this to end long before the convention. As far as the hatred goes, I'm tellin' ya that's a small minority of the overall population that spends this kind of time on the blogs.

---

Sadly, that isn't the only thing that wins elections. He very well could look presidential and still may not have enough sway to win over 10% of the Democratic base that would've voted for him had it not been the ugly battle between him and Clinton. That could throw the election to McCain, especially if they decide to vote for him instead.


Very true, but it's important and it's happening and it can't be a bad thing that he's looking more presidential in peoples' eyes. I just can't imagine any true Democrat voting for McCain after the 8 years we'll have endured under this administration. I can see indies going to him and I think it's gonna be a tough battle - but I don't see how an early end to the nomination process helps us much with independent voters.

---

I also think you've brought up a lot of good and somewhat valid points. I just think they're too based in fear and that we should not fear to let our Democratic process play out. Let the remaining states vote, let them count for once. Just because we usually have a presumptive nominee by now doesn't mean it has to be that way.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. Yep, Excellent post!!
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
21. Pros and Cons as I see it.
Edited on Tue Mar-25-08 03:15 AM by McCamy Taylor
Pros to ending it now:

Karl Rove will not be able to send "demonstrators" disguised as Obama or Hillary supporters to Denver to incite riots, a Nixon 1972 tactic that he is almost certainly planning to try as part of his Brokered Democratic Convention Strategy

Obama can concentrate on McCain.

Hillary and Obama can make up in public which will help Obama regain his unifier image before the general election. This is important since McCain has said he will attempt to portray Obama as a dirty Daley Chicago style politician.

Cons to ending it now:

As long as the GOP is playing Brokered Democratic Convention they will not release the big guns on either candidate because they do not want either one to drop out of the race before Denver. That means that if Hillary and Obama are both candidates, the GOP will mount only non lethal attacks on them, trying to keep them equal. This will give Obama several more months of easy campainging before the real fight against the Rove machine begins.

Some Democrats will feel like they did not get a chance to participate. States where the Dems campaign are likely to have increased turn out this fall as voters begin to feel invested in the candidates and the race.

Agree that the more states that are included, the more legitimate the victory is--esp if we are not counting Florida and Mi. Counting every other state would be ideal. Then if Florida and Mi change nothing at that point all is good.

Truly, as far as Obama supporters go, the only real reason to end it now is fear that their candidate's success may suddenly fail---he may stumble or bad news may happen. They would rather see it locked up. However, even if Hillary concedes, the convention can always overturn things if McCain or the news media comes up with a nasty story between now and Denver. So a concession does not buy Obama any security. He is not safe until after Denver.

And Hillary's supporters are going to look at what Fox News did deliberately to keep her in the race (Karl Rove's Brokered Democratic Convention strategy, remember. It isn't there to help Hillary, it is there to help McCain) and they will think "What if that happens again?"

Karl Rove is pulling everyone's chain. It is disgusting.

All in all, since Rove seems so desperate to get a brokered convention, I say follow your idea, get to the end of the votes have Hillary resign gracefully, go to the convention with a nominee.

However, do not be surprised if Rove does something drastic---like using the DOJ or NSA blackmail or something just god awful---to make it impossible for the Dems to nominate anyone before Denver. He is absolutely obsessed with recreating Chicago 1968.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. that
is very interesting. Where are you hearing the 'rove' wants a brokered convention idea? I hadn't heard it before. Interesting idea.
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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
22. The rest I'll leave alone, but...
This one I see as a major failure in our logic and it's one that'll cost us the election.

7. "Providing ammo" - let's be real, anything the Hillary campaign can dig up, the McCain campaign can also dig up and will dig up. Probably their die-hard supporters will do it for free and so it doesn't cost them anything either way.

There is power in attacks by your own that attacks by the other side doesn't hold, that's always been one of our greatest failures and one of the repubs greater strengths. The facts about the war and the results of the war so far were out there for everyone to see for quite a while before it started to gain traction. It gained traction in the press when some Generals and rare repubs started to come out with doubts about the war. All the sudden it wasn't a partisan issue, but a real one.

That's also the problem we had with pinning the military service in war dodge on Bush. Yeah he did it but it was just us saying he did it, no so called "non-partisan groups" like the swiftboaters and no repubs so it was just a partisan slam and didn't stick.

Nothing is 100% so no, that wouldn't have made Barrack or Hillary immune, but it would have made the attacks we'll get less damaging than one with Hillary herself or one of her top people saying it would.

The Rev Wright thing was taken out of context and not even credited as, in part at least, the words of a US Ambassador first spoken on FOX news rather than in church. We handled that more like repubs than dems and swiftboated our own, and no, we can't take it back when the primary is over. We've written the repubs campaign ads for them, and we're the likely stars of them. Handled right it was less dangerous than things politicians breeze by all the time, it's a guilt by association trip and people get away with worse having done it themselves. Bush did.

We could have handled it, instead we crippled our most probable nominee and made sure that if Hillary does end up with it after all of this half the party will see her as a swiftboater so won't turn out for her. Black vote for sure, and maybe for decades. We screwed up BADLY.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Well let's say I buy that.
Edited on Tue Mar-25-08 03:36 AM by FlyingSquirrel
(1) It's already happened. (2) The Clinton campaign actually denied, or at least refused to take credit for, the Wright thing. So it's not exactly provable that we attacked our own. (3) Obama made lemonade out of it and probably drew in a lot more independent voters than he may have lost (and those that he did lose were probably more swayed by the inherent racism than concerned about the source). (4) I think Hillary's running out of new ideas. I have to wonder if there's anything more she can use. Just recently (before Easter) they did some kind of conference call with the press, and the Obama campaign was able to basically respond, "Since this is just the same old recycled garbage we've been hearing, we'll just skip the conference call we might have held and let you all spend some time with your families." Repeating the same tired old stuff that's been rehashed turns people off, makes them change the channel. They've heard it, they've formed their opinion, it's now a blunt instrument instead of a sharp object.

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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I'll give it a shot
(1) Agreed. I'm pretty sure our odds of losing the next election at this point are 80% or so, I hope like hell I'm wrong but there's been some pretty nasty stuff going around recently and they'll make some interesting ads. Nothing like dem on dem to sell the party when half the nation is infatuated with McCain to start with.

(2) I won't get into the blame bit, others are both more dedicated to the candidate and more familiar with all the inside the beltway dealing than I even care to be. I'm more concerned with fratricide and 4 to 8 more years of this crap. Campaign aids, officials, pundits and so on have been asked about this again and again and it's not being put into context or dealt with honestly. The most charitable thing I can offer is that at the top they just smile and let it go even knowing it's wrong. That's a repub tactic, not a dem one. Farther down it gets worse and it's all in the family, I've little doubt they've a good stock of print and vid clips to imply agreement with doubts about the minister or to say it outright themselves. We only got one chance to make that first impression with the voters and this for many was it, to many Obama is now what the slander says rather than what his real history shows and a preacher with three Presidential service citations who was at least twice invited to the Whitehouse under the Clintons is slandered as a rabid racist. We should be ashamed no matter which candidate we support and though he wasn't killed it did hurt him, and I'd think long term.

(3) I seriously doubt it. Obama did amazingly well given what he was handed, it was after that speech that I personally went from not caring for either candidate to figuring the race was getting too damaging and he looked like a leader. But, I'm a progressive and try to keep up on the details, the average American isn't and doesn't. Before all of this polls generally showed his support on a steady climb, the better people got to know him the more they liked him. Look at Texas, 20% behind to a near tie in weeks. Seemed to have steadied out now to me, Clinton achieved her goal, if she can't climb to his level tear him down to hers. For many of those who Obama could have offered a first impression to the preacher got there first. Uphill climb at best now with them.

(4) I'll skip this one... too easy to say things which would be sure to piss off her supporters. I didn't like either of them a few months ago, I don't much like any DLC or corporate dem, only thing that dragged me out for Obama was he was getting a raw deal and the style of facing things instead of running appealed to me, her style of the kitchen sink attack didn't and seemed too familiar after the last few years.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
29. Interesting points
But I do believe there are a few negatives, also:

1. The longer this goes on, the more the MSM focuses on division within the party.
2. The free ride McCain is getting is allowing him to raise funds and take taxpayer funded campaign stops without a coherent Democratic response.
3. The 'kitchen sink' strategy may hurt Clinton's re-election chances to the Senate.
4. Too much divisive politics may turn off the same people we want to bring to the polls in November, and may hurt Obama's coat-tail effect.

On the whole, I would like to see Senator Clinton stay in the race, but run a positiive campaign. I would especially like to see her get rid of characters like Mark Penn and James Carville. His Judas comments about Bill Richardson were offensive, and hurt the party as a whole.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. This means the Obama people owe us all an apology. Holding my breath here.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Ok... I apologize for any time I suggested she should bow out.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
35. Point #9 is debatable.
Edited on Tue Mar-25-08 09:26 AM by Beacool
I don't see a united party, too many of Hillary supporters will not vote for Obama. Particularly if we feel that she's been thrown under the bus.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. *sigh*
I guess our party is screwed then.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
36. It's a fascinating theory, but I'm afraid it doesn't take into account the "Us & Them" Mentality.
Fighting is never so vicious as in the family.

Bad blood is be created in the short term, though perhaps not long term.

It is my view that nearly all Hillary voters will vote for Obama, but that the new voters that Obama pulled out of the woodwork would not necessarily vote for Hillary.

That is the reason that Hillary's argument that she is winning the BLUE STRONGHOLDS is so patently ridiculous. Those states belong in the Blue column and no serious analyst would suggest otherwise. The battleground is, in fact, in the other states. Win won and the election is ours.

I hope that what you say is true, but I fear that the dirty laundry of one family, namely the Democratic family, is particularly ugly when hung out by other Democrats and that it will lose us some of the many Independent voters.

Anyway, it is a great post that I will consider for some time.

Recommended.
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