The English language is truly an amazing thing!

[Pacifist Patriot]

What an incredible language considering it's astounding vocabulary and the ability to choose a word that exactly conveys the connotation appropriate to the meaning you wish to express. The richness of the figures of speech, metaphors and colloquialisms. Now don't get me wrong, I am hardly an English elitist. I have studied French, Spanish and Russian and am struggling in vain to become fluent in Spanish. Language in general fascinates me and I think everyone should strive to know at least two with some degree of fluency.

But such a vivid and enriching language has its dangers as well, particularly since language is dynamic and evolves with usage. The rate at which language changes may have slowed down a bit with the advent of the printing press, though one can argue the internet may be countering that trend. Slang, regional expressions and topical/historical references can and do get "lost in the translation" within the English language itself. Sadly, ignorance of the context of figures of speech and the etymology of single vocabulary words can lead to painful misunderstandings.

On the one hand it is gratifying to see people willing to stand up to what they consider racism and call others out on it. If only we had more widespread examples of that courage with respect to policies and actions as well as speech. On the other hand, it is a reminder that falsly identifying expressions as racist does not serve the cause of eliminating racism but rather reclaims the language as racist by creating a growing list of benign expressions rendered malignant out of ignorance.

"If it's brown, flush it down" refers to water conservation and has never had anything to do with racism.
"the pot calling the kettle black" refers to the soot on cookware from a time when cooking was done over an open flame.
"niggardly" means stingy and comes from the Dutch language.

I joked about it in another thread, but I am completely serious when I tell you that I once heard someone gasp and take another to task for being a racist when all he said was he had a "black cloud hanging over his day." I cannot remember what the precise expression was now, but within the last couple of months I recall a bit of a debate here over the derivation and meaning of a phrase that jumped out at a handful of people as racist but was in fact historically rooted in clearly non-racist origins.

This is not to say that the English language does not possess hurtful and malicious turns of phrase. It most certainly does. However, my fear is that any expression that is remotely homophonic with an offensive word, or a rich expression that happens to include a color in it, be it red, yellow, brown or black, will be reinterpreted as malignant thereby furthering the dissimination of racism rather than focusing on the institutional environments and policies that perpetuate the dehumanization of all of us.

If an expression makes you cringe, all you have to do is ask what the individual meant by it. You may be surprised by what you learn. Sometimes a kettle is just a kettle.

Cheers

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. self-kick for the first time ever.

Sorry, but I think there are still some people who need to see this. One of our own was unfairly maligned as a racist and should be vindicated.

Cheers!

[Maddy McCall]

2. Thank you for this.

Having you post this means a lot to me. You are one of the most respected DUers I know.

:hug:

[Pacifist Patriot]

3. I am really surprised it did not garner more in the way of response.

Usually discussions about language usage take off when it comes to this particular aspect of how we express ourselves. Oh well, I hope people will at least read it and think about it a bit. How difficult can it be to respond, "Could you please explain what you mean by that?"

Edited for a typo.

[Maddy McCall]

5. Your post is meaningful to me.

ONe of the first posts I ever made at DU was about the meaning of words and the effect of words on meaning. Thank you for posting this.

I don't know why it's not receiving attention. :(

[Pacifist Patriot]

8. It certainly has relevance in an election cycle. Think of how many words must come pouring...

out of a candidates mouth over the course of almost two years. Not to mention the record of what they have spoken and written previously. The opportunity for innocent misinterpretation and malicious spin is astronomical. We've seen it happen with both candidates. Given the regional differences within American English it's amazing we can communicate on a national level at all sometimes. ;)

[Maddy McCall]

11. Isn't this true!

A colleague of mine is from Canada. She said something funny, and I replied "Do WHAT?" She said, "Huh?" and I said, "That's what I said, huh?"

She had no idea that "Do what?" means "What did you say? I know you didn't just say that!" LOL.

We started talking about regionalisms, and we really laughed our heads off at some of them. And we got to know each other better, through the whole silly but meaningful conversation. :)

[Pacifist Patriot]

45. On a side note, did you know that your offending phrase is on Urban Dictionary?

If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down

A phrase used to determine the appropriate circumstances under which to flush a toilet. Urine was to be left unflushed in the toilet bowl while feces were to be flushed right after bowel evacuation. This was used in efforts of water conservation either in the sense of environmental conservation or the saving of clean toilet tank water during power outages in remote areas.

“Man, don’t waste three gallons of water to get rid of a cup of sterile piss.”
“Why is that kindly hippy?”
“Just remember man, 'If it’s yellow, let it mellow. If it’s brown flush it down.'”
“Thank you, sir. Perhaps with the water we save in the crapper you might be able to bathe more thoroughly in the future.”

The last sentence in the example had me howling!

[grantcart]

14. It is odd what threads die and what threads live

language is such a strange thing. As a student and graduate student I struggled with it and did poorly in 4 language attempts. Living overseas I took language lessons on a complete inversion method and became quite profecient. Here is what I learned about languages.

1) Languages do have a center of meaning that shape how people think. English is an excellent language for management. Defining clearly function and purpose. Other languages are much better at expressing relationships.

2) We become so tied to saying and hearing certain things that we think something has great meaning even though if we had to express the same concept in another language it becomes very difficult. Here is one example "Only in America". Sounds good but is absurd. Nothing of significance to the human experience is located only in one country. Neighbors help neighbors in every country of the world and so on.

[Coexist]

4. this is interesting

there are a lot of old sayings (and new ones) that people misuse a lot. I wonder if at any time, they take on their new meaning, and lose their own?

[Pacifist Patriot]

6. I have no doubt that happens, but how tragic when a perfectly innocent...

expression becomes hateful simply due to ignorance rather than willful misappropriation.

[July]

61. A couple of examples come to mind; what do you think?

"Chaise lounge" was actually "chaise longue" or "long chair" in French. Somewhere after we started using the French expression in English, it was converted to "chaise lounge," presumably because it is, in fact, a chair for lounging and "longue," not an English word, looks an awful lot like "lounge," which is one (can't explain the "chaise" part, though!). Kind of makes sense in a goofy way, doesn't it?

The other example that comes to my mind is "beg the question." It has long represented the error of logic entailed in "us an argument that assumes as proved the very thing one is trying to prove" (Webster's) -- something like Ari Fleischer's infamous claim that those who didn't think Saddam had WMDs had the obligation to say where they were. In the last three or four years, "begging the question" has come to mean "raising the question." I assume the change comes from the idea that "begging" is akin to "asking for" in meaning.

Anyway, both of these seem to me to show how expressions do acquire new meaning.

[Justyce]

7. Good post - K&R. nt

[LostinVA]

9. K&R for sanity on here

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. One of these days I'm going to go just rabid batshit crazy on DU...

just to see your reaction. :)

[LostinVA]

33. I would love it!

"OOOOO!!! Haruka!!!! Pacifist Patriot is going crazy!!!!"

[bluedog]

10. I can not believe ...that we have to now

guard every word /old sayings/ Nursery Rhymes we grew up with.....have to now be monitored by the language police.......

[Maddy McCall]

12. Yes...

I was shocked at the accusations of racism that were hurled at me.

[Pacifist Patriot]

13. I can understand when some phrases make people wince, but I think...

the responsibility should be on that person to inquire as to what is meant rather than immediately jump to a negative conclusion. And then the writer or speaker should graciously explain.

But this also means the person using the phrase should be able to explain what they mean by it. I have seen occasions where someone used what they believed to be a benign phrase that they did not know had racist origins. Both participants in the dialogue have the potential to learn something new.

The exchange can and should be done respectfully by both parties.

[plantwomyn]

37. Can you give me an example

of an expression that exemplifies your statement " my fear is that any expression that is remotely homophonic with an offensive word"?
I get most of the racial and colloquial examples you've given but for the life of me I can't think of one time I mistook a homophobic comment for anything but what it was.

Note: I am assuming that there is a typo in your OP. If you meant to say homophonic I really don't understand the sentence.

[Pacifist Patriot]

41. No, the word really is homophonic. It means "having the same sound."

I'm referring to words whose sounds remind us a little too much of derogatory terms. One of the most egregious examples was the response the word "niggardly" received when a North Carolina school teacher used it in a professional setting. Some of the parents of her students went batshit when she used it in a letter and she ended up getting suspended over it. Good night in the morning!

But speaking of homophobia and language, I once saw someone go nuts when someone else used the word "fay." She thought it was a new slur against homosexuals because of it's close sound to both "gay" and "fairy."

[plantwomyn]

43. I know the definition of homophonic.

Your statement that we are "creating a growing list of benign expressions rendered malignant out of ignorance" is well taken. It is ignorance plain and simple. That a teacher should be suspended for saying "niggardly" is ridiculous. The problem is that OPPRESSORS have used words to describe people that represent how they envision the oppressed.
I have only been called N* one time in my life and it filled me with fear. I was called "chink", "squaw", "spick" and other wonderful descriptives, so many times I can't even count. In urban Chicago it was sometimes necessary fight to stay alive. I got to the point where I'd just laugh. The "names will never hurt me" attitude kicked in. Now it is harder for me to let things go. There are a lot of kids out there, not a tough skinned as I, who need we adults to set an example.
I guess the only answer for the ignorance is education. Not there's a word that is mauled every day! ED-U-CA-TION! NO G!
Guess I've been watching too much BBC America.

[BB1]

15. The Dutch aren't happy now,

:)

I'm dutch, and we have the weirdest sayings. Some include people or regions in the world. For instance, when some-one pretends he can't hear you, we call that person East-Indonesian deaf (Oost-Indisch doof).

But then again, the US Americans have a lot with the Dutch: Dutch treat, going Dutch, doing the dutch (for suicide, I believe). Any more?

Otherwise: good reading. Don't be afraid of language seems to be (one of) your bottom line(s).
Don't be scared of words, but watch out for those who have a way with words. They might put them in YOUR mouth...

[Pacifist Patriot]

17. Oooo, love your last sentence.

Never heard "doing the dutch" for suicide.

Yes, there are indeed a great many derogatory anti-nationalist expressions in many languages aren't there?

[BB1]

21. lots of them have to do with colonialism.

Wait for the Vets to come up with them first. Do you already know any sayings that have to do with Korea, or Viet Nam?

I heard 'doing the Dutch' on a 'Walker, Texas Ranger' episode. It almost made me wish he did.

Feel free to rip any sentences you like:) Posession is theft, and such.

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. What on this earth possessed you to watch that? LOL!

The most obvious colonialist expression I can think of is "Indian giver." Good grief if that isn't a classic example of projection.

[BB1]

28. what does it mean then, Indian Giver?

I watched Walker all the time. It was either that, or the Dukes of Hazard, or As the World Turns. Daytime tv in Holland is not what it used to be. We used to have none:)

Obviously, there are a lot of jokes on neighbors, but that doesn't count, does it?

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. Indian giver refers to someone who gives you something and then...

expects you to give it back.

That's okay. When I was in Germany daytime television was General Hospital, Gentle Ben and Emergency.

[BB1]

39. Like a tax break?

[eridani]

75. The white settlers were hooked into the commodity economy--

--and didn't get the gift econcomy of the natives. It is the nature of gifts to require reciprocity. Lewis Hyde wrote a great book on that subject.

[MethuenProgressive]

22. Indian giver, Redskins, Chiefs, Braves, Squaw...

My three Penobscot grandparents who grew up in Oldtown showed me, rather than taught me, how to have a thick skin. Stoicism.
Anecdote: Way back in the early 60s charts of the Maine coast showed dozens of N-word islands, points, headlands, etc. Augusta passe some law that changed the names. In the last few years Augusta has removed Squaw too. Now the double mountain near Katahdin is no longer called Squaw's Bosom. It's Moose's Bosom. Mooses got boosooms? :rofl:

[Pacifist Patriot]

Shouldn't it be Moose's Teat?

That's funny!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

31. Dutch Uncle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_uncle

Dutch doors, but maybe Dutch homes actually have split doors like that. So is that a saying? Or a reality?

[Thothmes]

70. Not sure but I believe most of the phrases that

us Dutch origins are from England. In the Royal Navy, a issue of rum before a battle was refered to as "Dutch Courage"

[Jed Dilligan]

92. Don't forget the Dutch Oven

It means pushing your partner's head under the covers and farting at the same time.

BTW, love your country!

[BB1]

94. Hahaha! I forgot that one,

must have been '95 since I last heard that one:) I spent a year in a Missourah High School, then. Love your country too, but try and get rid of your leaders.

Don't take me to your leader!!!

[Jed Dilligan]

95. I hope we can change

Sometimes I wish California was its own country.

[Arkansas Granny]

16. If you recall, there was also quite a dustup over words and their meaning after the 60 Minutes

interview with Senator Clinton when she agreed that she took Senator Obama at his word. I had always considered that phrase to mean that you believed what a person said, but apparently it was viewed differently by many on this forum.

[Pacifist Patriot]

19. I didn't have the pleasure of witnessing that, but...

that's the only meaning for the phrase that I've ever heard.

[MethuenProgressive]

18. nice post! I'll add "spadework" to the list.

Someone who claims two degrees from Dartmouth and a history of political activism proclaimed it was a word they'd never heard before and was obviously racist code.

:rofl:

[Pacifist Patriot]

20. That's the one! Thank you, it's been bugging me...

The phrase that got folks all in a tizzy here at DU was, "calling a spade a spade."

[needledriver]

35. A spade is not a shovel.

Really!

A spade has its handle in line with the blade. It is for digging. A shovel has its handle at an angle to the blade. It is for removing earth.

The shape of the blade is not the determining factor. You can have a round point spade, or a square end shovel, or the other way around.

[eridani]

76. Hey, you could always call it--

--a leveraged tactile-feedback geomass delivery system!

[TheDoorbellRang]

23. This is the sort of dialogue we need to be having

It's misunderstandings about expressions such as the ones you just noted that continue to foment unnecessary divisions amongst us. There has been a tendency here lately to strain every gnat in others' utterances in the quest for racist or sexist remarks. The hyper magnification of these accomplishes little because all we get is a kneejerk reaction in opposing directions from both sides.

I hadn't realized the "flush it down" expression had been attacked as racist. C'mon folks, straining at gnats here. At least ask for clarification, like the OP says, before you get some bugs stuck in your teeth.

[DarienComp]

24. I'm perfectly willing to concede the point, but...

do you remember a few weeks ago when the word "periodically" was taken to mean something sexist? I don't want to rip open that old scab, but it's worth pointing out that language can be misunderstood as sexism as well.

Maybe we can all just take a deep breath.

edit: syntax correction

[Pacifist Patriot]

27. Absolutely.

"I missed mine periodically," she said after a pregnant pause.

Sorry, couldn't resist. As someone else pointed out above we do have derogatory expressions that reference nationality as well. And as you say, sexism too. I have no doubt we have phrases that denegrate the elderly. And thus we have innocent expressions that can remind people of such derogatory intent. *sigh*

Indeed, maybe we can all just take a deep breath.

[KittyWampus]

26. Tar Baby- some DU'ers go apoplectic using that term, despite even knowing it's historical

context

[TahitiNut]

50. I find that one amazing. I was brought up with Uncle Remus and NEVER thought it was racist.

"Black Sambo"??? Sure. The tales of Uncle Remus, however, NEVER portrayed any race-based ideation in THIS child's mind. Even as a teen, I regarded them as belongng to the "folk wisdom" genre and a beloved cultural work.

For me, a "tar baby" has always meant a STICKY PROBLEM ... and I never saw any racial connotation. Bizarre.

[NashVegas]

32. The Generation Gap and the Art of Language

Instant messaging all day can decimate the vocabulary of anyone with good language skills. Imagine what it does to those who haven't grasped the importance of those skills in the first place.

In addition, we know our schools, our colleges and parents aren't demanding anything resembling intellectual capacity from anyone under 35.

[Pacifist Patriot]

34. present company excepted I assume...

"parents aren't demanding anything resembling intellectual capacity from anyone under 35."

Which reminds me of one of my pet peeves. "present company accepted..." BWAAA!

[NashVegas]

38. Well

'Our' should be inferred as 'our nation's' - I'm not a parent, so ... but when you've got people who negotiate their grades to the point where lawsuits are threatened? I think it's kind of an issue.

[Pacifist Patriot]

40. I knew what you meant.

You'll get no argument from me. We homeschool. But then I just opened up a whole new can of worms. Not to denegrate annelida mind you. ;)

[NashVegas]

42. Hur Hur

Nah. If I had them, if I thought I could, I'd consider doing the same - and I went to a really, really good public school in the NY state system.

[Hatchling]

36. Lovely essay.

I know that I have become much more sensitive to words this election, hyper-sensitive as you said. And I have become overly cautious in saying anything, because I don't want my words to be torn apart for an innocent error. If I've said something that could be concieved as racist or sexist I would like a discussion.

As for the "mellow yellow, brown down", it was a clever phrase to encourage water coservation. I personally couldn't let the yellow mellow. Yuck!

[goodgd_yall]

44. REC n/t

[jillan]

46. Excellent post. We all need to keep our sense of humor these days.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

47. It is also amazing that "coming under sniper fire" really means

that a year earlier, before NATO cleared out the hills and mountains of surrendering forces, there might have been a threat of a sniper.

[anigbrowl]

48. Perhaps you can also bring your linguistic lens to bear on hyperbolic allegations of sexism.

It should be educational, since so many of the posters in this thread spot it everywhere, even in the most commonplace remarks.

[Pacifist Patriot]

58. It's been mentioned in the thread above.

Sexism, ageism, nationalism...our language has it all. So of course even when it's not there people see it. I think it just tells us there is indeed a problem. But hypersensitivity is not the solution.

[Tresalisa]

49. I'm late to the party,

but wanted to :kick: your great OP!

I lurked here for a long time before I decided to sign up, so I haven't been posting here as long as most, and I can't remember ever seeing so many posts where a poster has made a harmless, funny remark and has been called sexist or racist!

I have a language funny: Before I went to Germany for the first time I took an adult German language class, as it had been awhile since I'd taken German in high school. The teacher, Herr Muller, wrote "When does the train depart" on the board, and then wrote "Wenn fahrt Der Zug ab", and went around the class having us repeat it. (Fahrt is pronounced more like fay-ert.) Herr Muller went down the rows asking people to repeat the sentence in German, and got "Ven fart (etc)..." from each student, to which he would interject "fay-ert". As he went further into geting us all to repeat it, his "fay-ert" became louder and more emphatic as each student mispronounced the word. When he got to me, I was laughing so hard and trying not to, that I could barely get the sentence out, pronounced correctly, of course!

Anyway, great OP! :hi:

[NewHampshireDem]

51. One of these things is not like the other

"If it's brown, flush it down" refers to water conservation and has never had anything to do with racism.
"the pot calling the kettle black" refers to the soot on cookware from a time when cooking was done over an open flame.
"niggardly" means stingy and comes from the Dutch language.

I guess I have a couple of thoughts/questions about your post:

First, what do you make of a situation like this:
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=261286

If I refer to blacks as 'Canadians' rather than 'n******', am I then not a racist?

If I take a benign expression and imbue it with new meaning--as language constantly changes and evolves--does that make the underlying prejudice vanish?

Second, according to Wikipedia, from which I guess you drew the claims in your OP, the expression 'the pot calling the kettle black' may have its origins in Don Quixote. Are we to believe that the man who so frequently attacks Moors in his book is not racist and that his coinage is simply begnin and suggestive of nothing more sinister?

I would also suggest that the pot and kettle metaphor is a dead metaphor--illustrated by the fact that you need to 'explain' it. Because it's dead, I think all the average person is left with is the impression that somehow it's bad to be called black.

As for the 'brown flush it down' usage, it is the very richness of language that makes such expressions particularly insidious and pernicious. One can, with a wink and a nod, say something that is on its face completely 'innocent' but which is laden with connotation. It strikes me as being in the same vein as the odious 'Citizens United Not Timid'--you know, the group dedicated to 'educating' people 'about what Hillary Clinton really is'. I'm sure the misogynists behind that organization would make the same argument: 'There's nothing sexist about it. It's completely innocent. Why are you so offended by what *you* read into it?'

At the end of the day, they're both clever, but hatefully ignorant.

As for 'niggardly' and 'fay', I completely agree that its ridiculous to get upset about words that kind of sound alike. On the other hand, you don't want to teach the words 'niggardly' or 'fay' to a bunch of 7th graders. (However, according to the sources I've found, nothing suggests that it comes from the Dutch language.)

[Pacifist Patriot]

60. Aw crap, that's my forty-something memory of a six year old event.

Danish, not Dutch. My apologies to the Dutch everywhere! The word is of obscure Scandinavian origin. When the story broke in 2002 Danish was referenced and the intervening years turned it into Dutch in my brain. My sincere apologies!

Now back to your questions and very good ones they are.

Someone who is mute can be racist as far as I'm concerned. Labels and words are tricky things, which of course, is part of my point. My kids know exactly what I mean when I say, "Oh Fudge!" when I break a glass. I'm not fooling anyone. But one word is more socially acceptable than the other simply by matter of convention. Either way I still uttered an expletive rather than graciously accepting my clumsiness.

Of course when it comes to substituting a derogatory term for an innocuous one just to slide under the radar of offensiveness directed against a fellow human being that's a horse of a different color. It's a matter of intent and I think that's where productive and courteous dialogue can do us all a service. It doesn't take much to respond, "What do you mean by that?" or "Are you saying XYZ?" rather than, "Die you Racist Scum!" (Okay, that's hyperbole but you get the point.)

As far as the pot calling the kettle black, even in Don Quixote it wasn't used to denegrate the Moors. In fact, anyone who thinks about the phrase for half a second should realize it means "we are the same." i.e. think of it this way, "that's the cat calling the dog hairy." It's saying the exact same thing but because it does not have the word black it would probably be more acceptable these days.

I'm sorry I don't have time to read the story linked in your post. I'm behind in my packing for a trip and have to roust my kids into their pajamas. I promise I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

Thanks for keeping me honest on the etymology.

Cheers!

[NewHampshireDem]

62. Thanks for your thoughtful reply

and enjoy your trip! :waves:

[hvn_nbr_2]

64. Re: If it's brown, flush it down.

Whenever we have a drought in California, that saying becomes popular regarding water conservation. However, I have never heard it without the second part of the saying:

If it's brown, flush it down. If it's yellow, let it mellow.

I can't imagine anyone really thinking that's racist when it's in the complete form and in context.

[yewberry]

72. How about if it's posted as a headline in GDP by an ardent Clinton supporter?

Now how does it sound?

[TechBear_Seattle]

52. The English language is like a purse...

Full of things you don't need, and the one thing you do need you can't find.

Very good article. :hi:

[Pacifist Patriot]

57. Brilliant analogy. Love it!

[eppur_se_muova]

77. The phrase "Your Majesty is like a stream of bat urine" just popped into my head ... nt

[ms liberty]

53. An excellent essay...

As a left-handed person, I've lived forty-(mumble mumble!) years with expressions that have their origins rooted in bias...the "left-handed compliment," the "right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing," etc. It's nowhere near the discriminatory use of phrases against americans of african descent or other minorities - including some that have also affected me as a woman. One of the lessons of that however, is that I've learned to look beyond the surface when parsing statements by others, just as you advocate in your OP.
I've always personally loved the pot-and-kettle expression, particluarly the evolved shorthand version: "Pot. Meet Kettle." It's never had anything to do with race, and when it fits, it fits.
I haven't seen the post that prompted this OP from you, although from reading the replies here so far, I know who it was directed against; while I disagree with her preference in the primaries, I like and respect her. Thank you for this essay, for defending not only that member, but attempting to inject some sanity into the discussion around here! We need some about now. I will be so glad when the primaries are over and we can (maybe, please!) get back to some normality!

K&R

edited for tense correction...grammatical errors in a post about language - yikes!

[TrogL]

54. My best friend's father got all upset

...when my mother said the oven was "on the fritz" (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ont4.htm).

His name, unfortunately, was Fritz.

[cooolandrew]

55. That post in any other time would be lgoical but given the high emotions of this elections it is ...

...it is wiser to watch our words. I can see that you are probably a higher intellect level than myself, but playing things by ear is always the sensible way to go. Once the primary has passed, I am quite sure emotions shall return to a more subdued level, and this post will have more validity.

[Pacifist Patriot]

56. Well I am biased since I wrote it, but I don't think high emotions is an excuse for...

assuming the worst about people. We can all watch our words as closely as we can, but inevitably we'll innocently say something someone will find objectionable. At the very least we can ask someone what they meant rather than go ballistic all over them.

[cooolandrew]

63. A drawn out primary can only lead to this as supporters are passionate about each candidate really..

I can see what you say makes common sense, but common sense isn't always as common as most people would like to believe.

[spoony]

59. Nice post, k/r

I love this mutt of a language. Its weird spellings, silent letters, anachronisms and oxymorons. A wonderful patchwork, and point well taken about people's meanings :)

[kittycat1164]

65. What a refreshing thread! TY!

My 14 YO daughter and I were talking the other night and she asked me something you all might know. How did the term "gay" come to mean homosexual? I have no idea, and this thread is a wonderful way to find out. Thank you again for a beautiful post!

[msedano]

66. Ossie Davis' essay "The English Language is my Enemy"

This is what I found at the top of a google for subject. I remember it being longer, but maybe ditto took up more space back in the day.

"The English Language Is My Enemy"-- Ossie Davis

The earliest form of what could be called the English language began when the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes invaded the British Isles in the fifth century. Thus it was more than ten centuries before English-speaking peoples came in touch with large numbers of dark-skinned peoples from sub-Saharan Africa. It may be, however, that white-skinned English-speakers were predisposed, because of their language, to think ill of black-skinned Africans. If that is so, the English language prejudges--that is, it is prejudiced. This short essay by black actor, playwright, and author Ossie Davis is not the first indictment of that implied prejudice, but it is the most succinct and pointed.

A superficial examination of Roget's Thesaurus of the English Language reveals the following facts: the word WHITENESS has 134 synonyms, 44 of which are favorable and pleasing to contemplate, i.e., purity, cleanness, immaculateness, bright, shining, ivory, fair, blonde, stainless, clean, clear, chaste, unblemished, unsullied, innocent, honorable, upright, just, straight-forward, fair, genuine, trustworthy (a white man's colloquialism). Only ten synonyms for WHITENESS appear to me to have negative implications--and these only in the mildest sense: gloss over, whitewash, gray, wan, pale, ashen, etc.

The word BLACKNESS has 120 synonyms, 60 of which are distinctly unfavorable, and none of them even mildly positive. Among the offending 60 were such words as: blot, blotch, smut, smudge, sully, begrime, soot, becloud, obscure, dingy, murky, low-toned, threatening, frowning, foreboding, forbidden, sinister, baneful, dismal, thundery, evil, wicked, malignant, deadly, unclean, dirty, unwashed, foul, etc.... not to mention 20 synonyms directly related to race, such as: Negro, Negress, nigger, darky, blackamoor, etc.

When you consider the fact that thinking itself is sub-vocal speech--in other words, one must use words in order to think at all--you will appreciate the enormous heritage of racial prejudgment that lies in wait for any child born into the English Language. Any teacher good or bad, white or black, Jew or Gentile, who uses the English Language as a medium of communication is forced, willy-nilly, to teach the Negro child 60 ways to despise himself, and the white child 60 ways to aid and abet him in the crime.

Who speaks to me in my Mother Tongue damns me indeed! ... the English Language--in which I cannot conceive myself as a black man without, at the same time, debasing myself... my enemy, with which to survive at all I must continually be at war.

[misanthrope]

89. Ossie was reaching for some of these...

... A "blotch" can be any hue.

I had no idea that "threatening" is chromatic in any sense. The same applies to "frowning, foreboding, forbidden, sinister, baneful, dismal, evil, wicked, malignant, deadly, unclean, dirty, unwashed, foul, etc...."

[msedano]

90. there ya go...

i'm sinister to the bone. then there's the bar sinister used to designate bastardy. all out of self-righteousness. i am a left winger, but i bat right. btw, what does etc. have to do with all those imprecations? further btw, for those who don't know, "sinister" refers merely to being left-handed. the opposite of dexter. look that up in your funk & wagnalls.

[Willo]

67. I like this post, the thread and way words and phrases are

used by different groups.

I'm curious how people interpret the tooth suck as an expression. Typed I believe its "tsk" (?)

As a kid I knew it was a dangerous thing to do during one of my mom's lectures. She never said why and I never asked. As a teenager, I did it after an elderly aunt said something I didn't like or want to hear. She was walking out of the room, I sucked my teeth and she came at me with a broom, trying to take my head off. All the while yelling that I had just told her to kiss my ass. I thought she had lost her mind. No way would I say or think such a thing. But, after thinking on it I saw her point. That did more for my tooth sucking days then my mom's flying slippers.

[knixphan]

69. sucking teeth at my mom

would have been a self-imposed death sentence... I dig it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

82. Is that cultural? I'm not familiar with it. Is that the equivalent of..

rolling your eyes and sighing? I remember getting in a world of trouble with my dad when I did that to my mom as a teenager.

[Willo]

91. I believe it is cultural

especially for girls lol.

I recall patting my foot, rolling my eyes, sucking my teeth and sighing.

From what I've noticed, women from the caribbean do it often.

[Willo]

68. To speak to some of the phrases used here

I know the "brown flush it down" as a toilet reference. But I did pause for a second, wondering if that's how the writer intended it. And, sure enough it was. As kids we used to chant, "If you're white, you're right, if you're brown, stick around, if you're black, get back" Then, I had no idea what it meant or where it came from...it was just a another nursery rhyme chant. Perhaps, knowledge of that chant is what unconsciously came to my mind to give me pause.

"Tar baby" until this thread, was ONLY known to me to be as a nasty, negative term.

Tone and context go a long way though. Sometimes harder to define by what is typed.

[tammywammy]

71. You're right

:)

[eridani]

73. You forgot "if it's yellow, let it mellow"

That ALWAYS preceded "if it's brown, flush it down."

[eppur_se_muova]

74. "Pot calling the kettle black" is about PROJECTION ( a favorite DU topic!).

The expression dates from a time when a *kitchen* kettle (as opposed to a wash kettle) was typically made of copper and kept polished to a mirror shine. A 'pot' referred to a (black) cast-iron pot. So when the pot looked at the kettle and called it black, it was seeing its own characteristics in the kettle, and attributing them to the kettle, rather than itself. Anyway, that's the best version I ever heard -- YMMV.

I think most people hearing the expression understand it to mean the pot is accusing the kettle of a flaw which itself posesses, as if being black is necessarily bad. That's not the original implication, so it causes confusion. We need a new expression for modern times -- I propose "Like a Republican politician calling anyone else a crook". I think that covers the meaning pretty well. ;)

[Pacifist Patriot]

81. Yep. I mentioned that elsewhere above.

The analogy I used was, "the cat calling the dog hairy" but I like yours better. :)

Another explanation I've heard is that when the expression arose cookware was made of iron which is already black. So the pot calling the kettle black is an ironic expression of saying "we're the same but I don't realize it because I think I'm better than you."

[boppers]

78. The converse, oddly enough, is also true.

What I find fairly shocking is when people use a blatant phrase, or stereotype, with absolutely no intent (and in some cases, knowledge) of it being a discriminatory or defaming phrase or symbol.

A list:
http://www.rsdb.org/

[Pacifist Patriot]

83. Exactly. Which is why I highly encourage people to ask about meaning AND intent...

before hurling accusations of racism, sexism or any other ism. It could very well be ignorance and you'd be doing the person a favor by gentle pointing it out.

[loyalsister]

79. And the confederate flag is simply a symbol of southern pride

and rememberence of dead soldiers from a particular region.
Inflexibility in understanding or caring to understand how the listener interprets language is as insensitive as claiming that people should not be upset by symbols that have a meaning that could be interpreted in a way that is negative.

[Pacifist Patriot]

84. Not even close as far as analogies go.

The confederate flag is a blatant symbol of hatred and oppression. That is a far cry from someone misunderstanding a phrase that has never had any racist connection or intent.

"Inflexibility in understanding or caring to understand how the listener interprets language"

Never once did I indicate this should be the stance of the speaker or writer. Please do not erroneously extrapolate meaning of another aspect of a complex issue when only one is being addressed. What in my post made you think I believe it is okay for the speaker or writer to ignore the listener's feelings? I advocated dialogue to reach mutual understanding. Yes?

[The Doctor.]

80. 'Lift the language back up'. I picked a random vegetable to pretend to support for president

and wound up being called a racist.

Personally, I'd never heard the word "eggplant" used to describe a black person. God knows the trouble I'd have stirred up if I chose a 'yam'.

Good points.

[Pacifist Patriot]

85. I never heard that until my senior year in college and only because...

my boyfriend's roommate was Italian. This is a great example of why responses to such comments should be queries rather than accusations. That isn't exactly a widely known derogatory term, particularly when the english word is used instead of the Italian.

Why are we so quick to assume the worst? This is what I don't understand about all of this. We are presumably a community of progressive (although I'm aware it is open to an influx of trolls) individuals. Shouldn't we be assuming the best of intentions and simply ask if we see something personally jarring?

[FightTheRight89]

86. I agree wholeheartedly.

[Kablooie]

87. Cracker jack post, you cracker.

[Summer93]

88. Fine essay

I knew of most of the sayings that were used.

I think Bush* set the standard for use of language for the current generation, with "either you are with us or against us" a confrontational statement. Then misusing words and sayings which brought attention to his use of language. I think a lot of people can repeat some of these.

It seems that it has become popular with younger and possibly less educated people to simultaneously misuse language while being confrontational.

[Jed Dilligan]

93. Rape can be good for the environment.

Really! It's an effective source of biofuel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed

[Windex]

96. National Spelling Bee

I still wouldn't use this word in Tennessee!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGdCeMayUjk&feature=related

[FlyingSquirrel]

97. Sorry but....

I've avoided responding to this thread but it keeps getting kicked back up so here's my feeling on the "If it's brown, flush it down" one. The thread with that title came on the heels of the "Let it sink" campaign and was locked by none other than Skinner. Considering what we flush down the toilet, it should not have been difficult for the person posting that thread at that time to recognize in advance that it would probably offend a large number of people.

People should think before posting. I'm gonna hide this thread now so it won't keep reminding me of that other thread.