Joe Klein of Time: "Is Al Gore the Answer?"

[Andrea]

This was just posted over at Time. As Klein states, it's a long shot, but it could happen. And this has been anything BUT a normal year.

Here's the link:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1725678,00.html

[TwilightGardener]

1. Anything to keep Obama from being President. First they floated him

as Hillary's VP, now Gore's--it's just fucking sick and wrong. Obama has earned the nomination.

[Andrea]

4. Sorry, I disagree

This will keep Obama in the running for later. For him to get the nomination and then lose to McCain this November (as polling indicates will happen)will be the end of his dreams. For him to spend eight years as Gore's VP will just about guarantee him the presidency in '16.

[TwilightGardener]

8. What part of "Obama ran for President and earned the most delegates"

do people not understand? Obama is not RUNNING for VP--why would they snatch it away from him at the end?

[Rubiconski2009]

84. HILLARY CLINTON LOST THE ELECTION.

Barack Obama is the nominee. Whistling 'Dixie' won't change that.

[Life Long Dem]

211. I agree. If Gore didn't get in with the draft Gore but comes in now

after all the campaigning to do what? Steal it from Obama? What are you nuts? No offense to Gore. And welcome a Obama/Gore ticket any day. But to come in like that it would look like Gore is saving the race for Hillary and team. I vote no on any such notion.

[GOTV]

82. Most polls I've seen recently put Obama above McCain

[Andrea]

87. Gallup polls yesterday show both of ours losing to McCain

I think we need a ticket that is going to win by a huge margin, in order to counteract the election stealing the Republicans will certainly try again.

[GOTV]

89. Yeah, after I posted that I checked out pollingreport.com. Results down thread. n/t

[Andrea]

7. Also, he has not yet earned

the nomination and he may not. There is no scenario under which either Clinton or Obama can win the nom without the super delegates. So, one way or another the SDs are going to decide this. It's just the facts of where we are and how the votes have happened.

[TwilightGardener]

12. OK, I will fucking riot in Denver, small middle-aged mom that I am, if the

SD's actually do this.

[Andrea]

20. So, does that mean that you prefer

McCain/Whoever to Gore/Obama, regardless of the fact that Obama would have to agree to this and give it his blessing in order for it to happen?

[TwilightGardener]

22. I prefer Obama. Why is his candidacy and nomination so ILLEGITIMATE

to some people???

[Andrea]

25. Simple: he does not and will not have sufficient pledged

delegates to win the nom. Nor will Clinton. It's mathematically impossible at this point. Plus, he does not poll well against McCain. Nor does she.

[TwilightGardener]

27. He will have earned MORE--he is CLOSER to the finish line. Holy shit, the

supers aren't just going to hit a reset button and wipe out the results of all the primaries and INSTALL someone that NO ONE voted for! It's fucking DELUSIONAL. If something happens and Obama is unelectable, HILLARY will be the nominee. Not Gore. Time to let go of this fantasy.

[Andrea]

32. They are going to go by the rules that are in place.

The reason those rules are in place is to assure we don't end up with an unelectable candidate. The super Ds were put in place to prevent another disaster like McGovern in '72.

Try to think about it in realistic terms, not just what you personally want.

[TwilightGardener]

39. Obama is electable. Hillary is electable. There is no evidence that Al is--

because he didn't campaign, and didn't run, and didn't raise funds. Even polls last fall showed him losing. This is truly crazy talk.

[DerekJ]

132. Whenever I hear a Hillary supporter speak about adhering to the rules, I get this sick feeling in my

stomack then I :puke:

[Andrea]

135. You are barking up the wrong tree.

She's very bad for the party in my opinion.

[Andrea]

137. If you had a donor star, you could do a search

Then you would know for sure that I am no Hillary supporter.

[Shae]

29. But Clinton and Obama do have millions of votes.

Remind me again how many Al Gore has.

[susankh4]

70. Many, many more than they do

after all, he actually won the GE in 2000!

[Andrea]

93. Yes, he certainly did! n/t

[susankh4]

35. The truth is finally coming out!

And as a Dem of many years I am happy to see it.

Obama is not the man to run against McCain. Not at this point in his career.

I always though Clinton/Obama would have won. Gore/Obama... yeah, them too. But Obama as front man is not gonna get it. Not this year.

[Andrea]

69. And really, isn't winning the most important thing?

Maybe it shouldn't be like that, but at this point in time, with 8 years of Bush behind us and 4-8 years of McCain in front of us, it has to be priority #1.

[otohara]

75. But Don't You Think

that polls in regards to McBush vs Clinton or Obama NOW reflect in the anger on both sides. Once the nomination is nailed down and party leaders come together to support the person who won the most pledged delegates & popular vote, the anger will subside and more democrats than not will decide to support the democratic nominee over the very old McBush?

If this revenge voting that is now predicted actually happens in November, then we will deserve to get McBush, in which case, we are the fools, and stupid fools at that!

[Andrea]

80. I'm sure they do reflect that, but

I'm not at all sure things will get better after Denver. For example, with all the Republicans that came over to vote for Hillary at Limbaugh's behest, they will undoubtedly vote for McCain. The crappy primary process we have leaves us in the position of having two front runners that might very well have never made it this far if we had a better system.

Even if the revenge voting is what gives us McCain, I really don't believe anyone deserves that outcome. We've been through hell because of two stolen elections - we must have earned some slack on this next one. Unfortunately, we may not take advanatge of it.

[GOTV]

86. Polls: Obama vs. McCain

NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll 3/25
Obama 44-42

Gallup Poll daily tracking 3/25
McCain 46-44

FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. March 18-19
McCain 44-43

CBS News Poll. March 15-18, 2008.
Obama 48-43

CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. March 14-16, 2008
Obama 47-46

[Andrea]

92. Thanks for the info n/t

[bhikkhu]

108. Good info - about two % points and people want to ditch the whole primary system?

That is - it doesn't matter if Obama is ahead in the popular vote, Gallup puts him behind in the GE and winning is what is really important.

Nonsense. If you scrap the rules, scrap the primaries, scrap the delegate counts and the whole process, you may or may not have a riot in Denver. But what you certainly won't have is many Democrats showing up to vote in the GE.

[Andrea]

113. Nobody is talking about scrapping the rules.

This is provided for in the rules that have been in place for over 30 years, in response to the disaster in '72.

[bhikkhu]

125. Scrapping the primary results. Same difference, to most.

[Andrea]

136. Not if they are informed. n/t

[bhikkhu]

139. As in "We are scrapping the primary results. Trust us, its for the best"

"Now that you know, have a nice day"

[Andrea]

141. Can I make a suggestion?

Please read the rest of the thread and the article.

[bhikkhu]

156. I know, I was making a joke based upon a deliberate misinterpretation of your reply

Bad form, I am sorry. I don't often find myself in such strong disagreement with apparently reasonable people, though.

Backing off now, as neither of our minds are likely to change.

[Andrea]

157. That's cool

I wish I had got the joke - I wouldn't have said what I did. Reasonable people can agree to disagree.

[bhikkhu]

154. self-delete - wrong place

[Shae]

37. Could it be

because we need a white man? Not a white woman or a black man?
Just asking.

[Andrea]

41. Could it be because some of us want to win?

Could it be because some of us do not buy into identity politics?

[TwilightGardener]

42. That's what it is. There is something afoot here. It seems some are

terrified of anything but a white man earning the nom--that's why the nervousness, the second-guessing, the fantasy that White Guy Al will come in at the last minute and save us. Fucking pathetic.

edit to add: If this was the case, hell, even Edwards campaigned and earned some votes--why not him?

[otohara]

58. I Will Join You AND

you can stay at my home in Denver while you're here! I am another small maybe more-middle-aged than you mom.

[TwilightGardener]

59. It'll take two of us, maybe, to hurl the big heavy garbage cans through the windows, but

we'll do it, by golly! :D

edit to add: just kidding, peaceful protest only!

[amandabeech]

111. Please, remember '68.

I'm a middle-aged lady, too. My guy Edwards is out, and I don't have a favorite between Clinton and Obama right now.

In '68, the contest, after RFK's assassination, was McCarthy vs. Humphrey. Surely, you remember those riots on TV?

Seeing the chaos at the Dem convention was one reason why Humphrey lost and we got stuck with Nixon.

Don't give the pukes any ammo that they don't have.

Peaceful demonstrations, OK. But NO RIOTS. NOT EVEN TALK OF RIOTS!!!!

[Andrea]

117. Absolutely right

The last thing we need is to be associated with riots.

[JoFerret]

208. Obama riots -= GOP president

Ditto Clinton riots.

[Andrea]

63. Frankly I'm surprised

to see people advocating rioting over the application of party rules, when so few of us came out to even peacefully protest when the '04 election was actually stolen, giving Bush a second illegitimate term. (Rememeber '00 - the presidential election that Al Gore won?)

[otohara]

71. Good Grief

Lighten up!

There will be protests in Denver with out two old gals typing our frustrations on DU. BTW (the protest permits have already been given out). How ugly it gets depends on if the popular vote & delegate lead gets overturned.

[Turn CO Blue]

107. I am all for Obama now, but GORE WAS MY FIRST CHOICE.

SO -- If you'd riot in my hometown against Al Gore, then you're on the wrong discussion board.

Al Gore EARNED THE OVAL OFFICE and it was stolen from him LONG BEFORE WE KNEW OBAMA'S NAME.

I truly admire Barack Obama, but even he can't hold a candle to Albert Gore and to Al's contributions to the party, the nation and the world over the last several decades.

[Andrea]

114. I'm with you

What this is all about for me is doing what is best for the party, the country and the world. This is a rare case where what is best for all three is the same: Al Gore.

[bhikkhu]

148. Six months ago this might have been best. Now it is political suicide.

And Gore was my first choice too.

In an election people all over the country are given a voice and a choice. Turnouts and voter interest has been unprecedented, and either candidate against McCain is an even match. How does anyone justify the party leadership tossing them both out and hand-picking somebody else? I can't imagine a political party surviving that in this country. It suggests complete desperation, where the situation is in fact anything but desperate (in spite of how it might appear in the GDP from time to time).

[Andrea]

151. Well, first I would say

that the way this primary season has played out, it is far from the case that people all over the country are given a voice and a choice. In the caucus states, the turnout is typically something in the single digits. Part of the reason it is so low is because very few people can make it to the caucus when they have work conflicts or child care issues or other responsibilities. Thos of us that are in the primary states had a very limited choice for the most part. Our other six candidates were driven out so early that the vast majority were left with a choice between two people they might never have voted for in the first place.

Secondly, I would ask that people consider the whole picture before they fly off the handle (not that you have flown off the handle, but many have). This would only happen if Obama agreed to the plan and gave it his blessing and instructed his delegates to vote for Gore - that, or he had become so discredited that his own delegates turned against him, God forbid.

[Crunchy Frog]

175. Well, Al Gore was my 2nd choice, right after Wes Clark.

I very much wanted him to run, and would have supported him if he had. BUT, he did not earn the nomination THIS ELECTION CYCLE! Yes, he earned the office EIGHT YEARS AGO, but not this time around. He did not put the work into it. He did not spend the gruelling months on the campaign trail, talking until his voice went hoarse. He did not put together an organization, raise tens of millions of dollars, or any of the other things that both Obama and Hillary HAVE done.

I live just outside of Denver, and consider her to be completely welcome to come here and protest to her hearts desire, should such a scenario come to pass. I will join her with torches and pitch forks.

[Turn CO Blue]

181. A brokered convention is still decided by RULES and a VOTE.

It's not like someone will nominate Gore, and then he is automatically "the one". It can only occur when there's no clear winner after the pledges vote and the supers reveal their votes. Then the existing nominees would have to agree to advise their pledges to vote for one of the new nominees. If Obama guided his pledged delegates to vote for a new name, they could do so or since they're released after the first vote, then they could vote for some other new nominee. The supers can vote however they want.

The brokered process has RULES; it's still democratic and Democratic. It's not like we've haven't gotten our candidate like this before. It amazes me how people thing that anything that could occur this cycle is "new" and that history only goes back two or three decades.

However, I do not actually believe that this will all the way to August. It gives McInsane too much time to get a clue.

[Crunchy Frog]

185. Yeah, the process has rules, but people still have the right to protest

and to feel that their democratic choices are not being respected. And you don't have proprietary ownership over Denver to where you have the right to say who can and can't protest and over what.

I don't think this scenario will happen either, but if it did, people would be perfectly within their rights to protest.

[Turn CO Blue]

186. The poster used the word RIOT, not protest. HUGE difference

of intent.

Rioting versus protesting

One is the action of thugs who are selfish, out-of-control reactionaries and one is the action of selfless, thoughtful activists.

We've always had the dichotomy of the reactionaries who want to advocate for property damage, civil unrest and violence if it comes to that - versus the true path of dissention of Ghandi and MLK. Peace. Healing.

The original poster in this sub-thread used the word RIOT not protest.

[Bake]

195. Those are the rules. I thought Obama people were all about the rules.

If you riot, literally, physically riot, what the hell is that supposed to accomplish?

For your sake, I hope you don't, but if you do, I hope you don't get hurt.

Bake

[Hawkowl]

36. Destroy the Dem Party

Depriving the first black candidate the nomination simply because he has the most pledged delegates and not a majority of all delegates would absolutely destroy the dem party. Blacks and the youth vote would stay home--perhaps forever. Because it would become obvious that their votes don't count. Perhaps you would prefer that we start counting black votes as 3/5 of a vote? This would be based on precedent in the constitution, as originally written, regarding determining the house representation of southern states. Is that what you are suggesting?

Your position is not only inherently unfair by overruling the will of the people, but also by imposing a higher standard on Obama than you would another, white candidate. People of color are very familiar with your position, because it is the position of the status quo for the past 400 years on this continent. "Wait just four more years. It's not your turn yet." It is his turn NOW. It is our turn NOW.

Luckily it looks like the party leaders recognize this fact and will let him take the shot he has earned. Even if he by some chance fails, it is necessary that he gets the nomination if he has the most pledged delegates.

[Andrea]

46. You are beneath contempt to make such a statement

about me. You have NO IDEA who you are talking to.


Furthermore, how long are these new voters going to stick around if they see us lose to McCain?

[Hawkowl]

50. You're the one advocating your position

I only know you by what you're posting. If the shoe fits.... Perhaps you should delve into history a bit more and reflect upon how the non-white, and a good deal of the progressive white community, views your statements.

Next thing, you'll be telling me how some of your best friends aren't white. I don't mean my statements as a personal attack, it's just your position echoes the NEVER ENDING refrain from the past 400 years.

And finally, if you shut your trap about who's the most electable and just support the person with the most votes, we will easily beat McCain in November.

[Andrea]

53. As I said, you know nothing about me.

You said, "Perhaps you would prefer that we start counting black votes as 3/5 of a vote? This would be based on precedent in the constitution, as originally written, regarding determining the house representation of southern states. Is that what you are suggesting?" This is absolutely over-the-top unacceptable.

Now you say, "Next thing, you'll be telling me how some of your best friends aren't white." This is atrocious!

Why would I give any consideration to your arguments when you have attacked me like this?

[Shae]

79. Andrea,

We're just having a conversation here, and some people may disagree with you, but I don't think it's anything personal.
I read Hawkowl's post that you called contemptable, and I don't think he meant any personal attack.
I think what he's saying that if Obama has more votes and delegates than any other candidate, and the nomination were to be given to a white man who didn't even run, many black folks might perceive that Obama didn't get the nod because he's black. If that were to happen, I don't think the Democrats could count on that bloc of voters in the foreseeable future. That would be devastating, because we need them.
I love Al Gore, and I would probably have voted for him if he had run. He didn't.

Now, you are right. We don't know who you are, and we don't know much about you other than what is posted here. But hey, it's all good. We're on the same side. In the end, we all want the same thing. We want to get those freekin' bastards out of the White House and put one of our guys in.

[Andrea]

85. Thanks for your reasonable response

I appreciate it. But what Hawkowl did was accuse me, someone he doesn't know and who has never attacked him, of being a racist. I will not just lay down and take that.

If he had presented his argument the way you did, that would be completely different. That would be discussion.

In response to what you said, I am sure some black people would respond that way. I do not think most of them would, for this reason: if the Gore/Obama ticket were to come about, it could only happen with Obama's agreement and blessing. It would only be because he agreed to go along with it, presumably because he would see it as the best thing for the party and the country. Then, he would put his considerable oratorical gifts to work explaining his position and why he had decided to enter into the agreement.

I would hope that most of his supporters respect him enough to listen to what he would say about it, and they would probably agree with him.

That's why I asked the question, way back at #18, How would you feel about this if it was with Obama's agreement and active participation? Unfortunately, no one answered that question. I would really like to hear what people have to say about that.

Edited because I said #6, when I meant #18.

[Shae]

If Obama came out and said that he wanted to run as Al Gore's VP

I would certainly listen to what he had to say.
I don't think it will happen. I'm sure that people such as Howard Dean are working behind the scenes to prevent a brokered convention. We'll just have to see houw it shakes out. You are truly right that the main thing is to keep McCain out of the White House.

[Andrea]

91. Thanks for answering my question

It may not happen. It may. I don't even know what percentage I'd put on either outcome. We WILL just have to see how it shakes out, because Dean and others are not going to tell us what they are doing. The info in Klein's article about how people responded to him is the most info I have yet seen about what is going on in the background.

I'm not sure it will be possible for me to stay in this country if McCain wins - or is installed.

[Andrea]

56. There is nothing wrong with me advocating a position

That is what this forum is for. I have not made any personal attacks.

[TwilightGardener]

48. Thank you--well-said. This would essentially kill democracy, and reinforce

the fact that blacks and women still aren't equal--they can run, and work their asses off for a year, and EARN VOTES--and still have it snatched away in the end on the basis of "electability"--which boils down to the fact that for all their efforts, they are still not white men. The electability argument stuns me, as well--Obama has now won MORE votes than any Dem candidate in HISTORY, if what I've heard on the news is true.

[acmavm]

164. It is not 'his' turn. It is the turn of whoever is voted in by the people. And if

you think we owe it to him because he's the 'black' candidate, you are as racist as anyone who has ever posted on this board.

[Bake]

196. Stop making it about race.

"Depriving the first black candidate ..." What if he doesn't have the 2025 needed for the nomination? Is the party supposed to give it to him anyway, just because he got "closer to the finish line" (to quote another poster) but couldn't get across?

Making it all about race is what is is going to destroy Obama and the Democratic Party in the general election.

Bake

[Andrea]

200. some will disagree vehemently, but

I think making it about race will destroy any chance we have to win in November. If Obama is the nominee, or on the ticket, I hope he moves back to his unifying message. It is quite damaging to talk about his grandmother being a "typical white person". White people don't like to be all lumped together any more than any other race does.

[jwirr]

44. One item in this article can happen. If the super delegates held

back and forced a second round of voting them all delegates are free to change their votes. While I do not think this will happen it has in the past. I do not pretend to know what would happen them but I do think it is a bad idea. This is a year when the convention had better reflect the voters in the primaries and caucuses. The mood of the people is not in favor of political deals after 8 years of nothing but crooked deals.

[Andrea]

47. I respect your response, though

I do not agree. At least you presented a well-thought out reason AND you actually read the article and know something about how the system works.

The thing is, there is a difference between deals within the party - which is a private institution - and deals within the public arena of the actual government.

[jwirr]

54. This private institution is my democratically run institution. I am a member.

When it comes to taking my vote from me, I and most Democrats will object. I am old enough to remember the smoke filled back room decisions. I will admit that we won back then but I do not think that had so much to do with their selection. We did not have the media to inform us so clearly that we were being bypassed. We also had a basically white establishment running the show. Today we have all kinds of information on the dealing in these meetings and we have a whole group of NEW voters coming forward who will not willingly be disenfranchised again. We also have a bunch of young voters who are still idealistic - not cynical like me - who expect to have their vote count.

[Andrea]

60. You are a member, as am I

I have disagreed with the super delegate set up in the past and wanted it changed, even though I understood the reason it came about. Now, I am seeing the value of it, within the system we have. I think it may prevent us from running into a disaster this fall. After eight years of Bush tyranny, I simply can't contemplate living here under a McCain regime.

Personally, for future elections, I would prefer to change the whole system and make it much more democratic. I think we should insist that all states go with a primary election, and eliminate the caucuses. The caucuses are inherently undemocratic. The fact that Obama has performed much better in caucus states than primary states is one of the reasons there are so many doubts about his electability. Additionally, we need to insist on ending the "open" primaries that makes us so vulnerable to manipulation by the Rush Limbaughs of the world. His campaign to get Republicans to switch over and vote for Hillary is one reason I have so much doubt about her. If we were to make these changes, we wouldn't need the super delegates and I would favor eliminating them.

My perspective is a little different from yours. I feel like with the flaws in the primary system as it stands, my primary vote doesn't really count anyway. My main sensitivity is to having my vote in the general stolen, as it has been the last two times. We need someone running who can win by a huge margin - big enough to prevent Rove from stealing the general again.

[totodeinhere]

128. I hope it doesn't happen, but you're right, it would be within the rules...

that all delegates would be released on the second ballot and then anything could happen. They could turn to anybody including Gore or Edwards. But IMO a much more likely scenario would be for a second ballot to go to whoever led in pledged delegates going in, which would almost certainly be Obama.

[Andrea]

140. That's possible

It wouldn't happen if the delegates are as extremist as most of the people here at DU.

Personally, I don't think it will go to a second ballot. Before the first ballot, it will be known whether or not anyone can win. Chances are, even with the super delegates, neither one will win. Then negotiations will begin. The delegates should do what their pledged candidate asks them to do on the first ballot. But if it doesn't happen that way, then we are looking at a second ballot.

[Shae]

11. Heh,

but Obama is the "thing that will not die."
Hillary is already dead. She just refuses to lie down.

[ClarkBayh 2008]

30. Still takes 2025 delegates to earn the nomination....

Let's face facts, if we lived in a REAL world meritocracy, the DNC would put up the best qualified candidates like Al Gore, Wes Clark or Richardson. Period.

[Andrea]

33. Right

WE need to face the facts and deal with the situation, or THEY will put McCain in office. McCain as president would be the last nail in the U.S. coffin.

[TheDoorbellRang]

81. I heartily agree

And I speak as an avid Gore fan (as my avatar will attest).

Obama has earned the nomination. If Gore had run, he would have had my vote. He did not. Obama has, and moreover has won me over with his amazing leadership qualities. If Gore wants in, I could see him as Obama's VP -- not the other way around; not at this point.

[Cha]

94. Well, I'm gonna put it this way WD,

joe klein is fulla shit. Gore doesn't want it and Obama has the Fire in belly. And, there's tons of us who do Want Obama but that doesn't mean we don't love Al Gore.

joe klein, stirring up shit on a slow day.

[JoFerret]

191. Not yet he hasn't

.

[Bake]

194. Unless he's reached 2025, he hasn't won the nomination.

First ballot at the convention will tell the tale.

Bake

[BeyondGeography]

2. Al Gore is not the answer

[RestoreGore]

3. God please, no. He doesn't deserve that.

[IDemo]

5. Al could have been the answer last Fall, but he gave his answer

It's ridiculous for pundits and voters to suddenly begin pounding the drums for a messianic Gore moment. He has made his wishes clear. Give it up, already.

[Shae]

15. I do soooo agree.

Both Obama and Hillary have worked their asses off for the nomination.
But, oh, wait. Let's give it to someone who hasn't lifted a finger for it because some people like him better.
Maybe while we're at it, we should start calling ourselves the Soviet United States -- or something.

[Andrea]

21. It's not about handing to anybody

It's about coming up with a solution to unite the party and keep McCain out of the White House. You prefer the 100 year war?

[Shae]

26. Have McCain in the White House ...

or apply the final cut to democracy? I'll have to get back to you on that.

[Andrea]

38. How is following party rules the "final cut to democracy"?

This is the process we have. If you don't like the party rules, work to change them. Right now, I'm awfully glad we have an escape hatch to avoid ending up with an unelectable candidate.

[TwilightGardener]

49. Why are Obama and Hillary "unelectable"? They have garnered INSANE

excitement and support, both of them, and a record primary turnout in most states.

[Andrea]

65. There are several considerations

The caucus process is inherently undemocratic. Open primaries are vulnerable to Republican manipulation. Many Dems had to vote for one or the other of these two because the other candidates were driven out so early. Why were they driven out? Partly because of the ridiculousness of the schedule, partly due to MSM tilting the whole process, and partly due to the unfair influence of money.

The record turnout is something we should seek to continue and build on - by winning.

BTW, if I were you I would think twice about using the word insane to describe the current state of the electorate. It points out another factor that many are concerned about.

[Shae]

61. You seem to be advocating

that a handfull of people select the Presidential nominee even though millions of people have voted for others. Up until now I was under the fallacious impression that We The People decided who would be President. I should have been tipped off by when the Supreme Court installed George Bush, but even he got millions of votes.

[Andrea]

68. In order to not be repetitious,

please see my post #65 above.

[SammyWinstonJack]

192. Having McCain in the White House will be the final cut to democracy.

I'll take Gore.

[Andrea]

201. Exactly

We've barely survived the last eight years. Gore could make huge strides toward rebuilding the country - at home and abroad.

[cali]

62. you're utterly delusional

if you think this would unite the party

[Bullet1987]

6. Even though Gore/Obama was my original dream ticket...

I don't like the idea of handing someone who never even campaigned the nomination. That goes against what Democracy is all about and it lays the foundation for a bad precident.

[TwilightGardener]

10. Exactly--I didn't fucking CAUCUS for Gore, I did it for Obama!

[Eurobabe]

45. Yeah and I didn't actually VOTE for Gore, I voted in my primary for OBAMA.

[Andrea]

18. How would you feel if

Obama decided it was best for him to run as VP with Gore and asked his delegates to vote for that ticket? I could see Obama deciding that. If his polling versus McCain continues to show him losing, and polling of Gore/Obama versus McCain/Whoever showed a clear Dem victory, that would be a huge reason for him to do this. Also, I'm sure there would be a good agreement where Obama would be a very strong VP - even stronger than Gore was under Clinton.

If Obama explained this was his preference, would that influence your feelings about it?

[theoldman]

9. If Obama even hinted that Al Gore was going to be his VP

he would win in a landslide. Al Gore as president would not work and I don't think it is going to happen. Why? Because Gore is not stupid.

[totodeinhere]

130. Or the same thing would happen IMO if he picked Edwards.

[Andrea]

142. I'm not sure it would have the same impact, but it would

certainly help him by picking up the large Edwards constituency.

[Bake]

197. Gore has BEEN VP. Hell, he's been elected POTUS

I don't think he'll play second fiddle to anybody, and I'd never ask him to.

Bake

[LWolf]

13. YES, with one exception.

Leave Obama off the ticket. Don't take the McClurkin/Wright baggage to the GE.

The same reasons that make neither Obama nor Hillary a viable candidate in November make them a poor choice for the bottom of the ticket. Send them back to the senate.

[Andrea]

23. No doubt they are valuable in the Senate

If the baggage is too heavy by fall, it might be necessary to leave him off. Or, if something else comes up. A month ago, nobody would have thought that Eliot Spitzer's entire career would be destroyed by now. I'm not saying that is going to happen to Obama, but the point is, the convention is five months off and the trend is not good.

[LWolf]

83. One can hope. n/t

[Connie_Corleone]

14. I would have a problem with that. I can only speak for myself...

There are 2 candidates who have been pouring money and resources into this primary process. There is one candidate who has won more states, more delegates and the popular vote....and Al Gore swoops in and becomes the nominee??

With all due respect to Al Gore, but that would piss me off.

[BeyondGeography]

19. Just think of all the air that goes out of the room as soon as Al hit the stump with his windy,

uninspiring speeches, accompanied by non-stop media blather about how fat he has gotten. Dems forget how miniaturized he can be made by the MSM. Obama is still someone who can go over the heads of the media and connect with a broad range of people. The sooner Democrats figure that out, the better.

[Andrea]

72. You're thinking of 2000

He's a much different man now. Think about that incredible Move On speech he made, for example.

[Andrea]

28. It's just realistic

Yes, we have two candidates that have poured a lot of $ and time into this race. We also have two candidates who cannot achieve enough delegates without pulling in the Super Delegates. We also have two candidates who are unlikely to beat McCain.

We also have two candidates who are tearing the party apart.

I prefer Gore as President, and a viable Dem party for years to come.

Do you prefer McCain and a debilitated and dying Dem party?

[Connie_Corleone]

40. You're spewing bullshit.

If you think supporters of either candidate is just going to be all kumbaya when Al Gore swoops in and gets the nomination without participating in the primaries, you're smoking some really good shit.

Either candidate will beat McCain. The head-to-head polls mean nothing this far out.

Supporters of either candidate will talk all kinds of crap now, but when we get closer to November, most Democrats are going to vote for the nominee (Clinton, Obama), NOT McCain.

[Hawkowl]

64. Who made you a SJC

You prefer Gore because you don't think a woman or black man can beat a delusional, pathologically angry, oldest candidate ever, Keating 5 alumnus, self admitting "I don't know much about the economy", weakest republican party in over 100 years, candidate?

You are either naive, incredibly obtuse, or just a terrified sexist racist, who'll grasp at any straw to put forth the white male alternative.

[Pastiche423]

124. What is a "SJC"?

[cali]

67. Stupid speculation

rooted in wishful thinking. Not gonna happen

[olkaz]

16. Joke Line Chiming In

And again, I'm not interested.

God that guy is a tool.

[Elidor]

17. Joe Klein is quite possibly the stupidest fuckwit ever to write for that sorry rag

There is no trial balloon too stupid for this idiot to float. Why anyone would read anything he writes is beyond me, unless it's to mock him afterward in the comments.

This is about generating web traffic. Even Klein knows better than this.

[MethuenProgressive]

24. ABOUT SIX FREAKIN MONTHS AGO

oops sorry...
But Al, where were ya six months ago? We'd be celebrating your choice of BO as VP and HRC as Sec State today!

[grantcart]

31. If the question is "who will bring the super delegates together to bring this circus to an end and

endorse Obama?" Then Gore could be the answer

[SoonerPride]

34. Maybe this will prompt Gore to come out and endorse Obama outright

I wrote Gore last summer and begged him to run for President. He wrote back and declined in a very nice form letter.

[Andrea]

90. If he did that, I would support Obama.

But if he get's drafted - which is what this is about - I would heartily support him.

[Eurobabe]

43. No flipping way. You want to split the party?

How's bout disenfranchising the millions of people who have already chosen Obama.

If the DNC does this I will never vote for a Democratic presidential candidate again, I just won't. Doesn't mean I will go to the dark side, I will just write in the person of my choice. :mad: :mad:

[Andrea]

95. Of course not, but that is what

is happening now.

If this came about it, it would be with Obama's endorsement and I'm sure they would do anything they reasonably could to get Clinton's endorsement as well. We need something they will both get behind to start healing the party.

[Eurobabe]

189. don't see it happening. HRC will be out either B4 PA or

shortly thereafter. She's broke.

[Andrea]

198. Well, time will tell on that

Personally, I think she has nothing to gain by dropping out now. She has every reason to stick in to the end. The longer she sticks, the more leverage she has to get something out of this. I hadn't heard anything about her being broke, but even if her campaign is broke, she has plenty of money personally and lots of deep corporate pockets that owe her.

[Andrea]

51. The tenor of the vast majority of these repsonses

illustrates another problem with the current candidates. Think about how this sounds. So many people clamoring for their personal preference without considering what is best for the party or the country.

So many people spitting out invective without giving any reasoned response - it makes my head hurt.

Do you really think we are going to unite around either of these candidates when you are responding like this to an article and an idea?

I certainly hope the party leaders are more calm and rational than most of the people responding here. If these screaming hysterical people were running the party, we never would have become a viable party at all.

[RestoreGore]

73. Do you have Mr. Gore's permission to presume he would approve of this?

You and others are only now using this dissention as an excuse to position yourself and you will now make many people distrust his motives and feel animosity towards Mr. Gore when it is not warranted. How utterly selfish of you to do that to the man just for your own selfish desires. If you care about this country, what are you doing to help Mr.Gore now? What draft group sent you here? You know, the draft groups Mr. Gore's office told to stop their efforts? Have any idea why? You serve no good purpose to him or his work with this crap now.

[cali]

76. get off your high horse

let me put it this way- I will vote for either Obama or Clinton. I will not vote for someone who chose not to run

[Rex_Goodheart]

52. Won't matter if Obama trails McCain by 30 pts. in the polls

The Democratic Party will not select Clinton NOR Gore NOR Edwards nor anybody other than Obama at the Convention. To think or hope otherwise is to deny the most foundational desire of politicians: to hang on to their jobs.

Four years of John McCain? Well, considering that the state of the world is almost a guarantee of a one term presidency, big whoopdee doo. Four years of getting your policies thwarted is nothing compared to a lifetime of cushy employment and prestige. And it's not like they try very hard at getting those policies passed, anyway. If it doesn't pass this term, all the more reason to include it in your campaign platform for the next.

Term limits? Hell, they'd go a long way in kicking our two front-running bozos to the curb. Four years would then mean a lot. Can't waste them on losers.

[Andrea]

77. Interesting argument

If it is McCain, we can all hope for a one-term presidency, but a lot of damage can be done in four years. Remember how much damage Bush did in his first four?

When you speak about the "lifetime of cushy employment and prestige" are you talking about elected officials or top party operatives? Although I agree that many in either group would prefer to ensure their own survival, frankly I don't see how a McCain presidency would serve either of them.

I have mixed feelings about term limits. I tend to prefer them, but in some cases they wouldn't serve well. I think the people in Cleveland who have eleceted DK to the House over and over would be unhappy if her were term-limited out. But then again, that might be a necessary sacrifice for the benefits of breaking the elite hold on office. I'm not sure.

[amandabeech]

112. With term limits, you run the risk of staff and lobbyists running the whole shebang.

It takes a while to master the rules and subject matter. And it gives the executive branch far too much power. California is finding that out in a big way.

[Andrea]

116. Very good points

Lobbyists in particular have way too much power now, and neither staff nor lobbyists are accountable to the people.

[amandabeech]

121. It's a problem in my home state of Michigan, too.

Our legislators actually need more and better staffs to advise them and keep the lobbyists from slipping bad stuff into the back of 1000 page bills in the middle of the night.

I worked on the Hill 15 years ago. I was a oldster at 35. Young folks bring something to the table, but they don't bring everything. Interestlingly, the pukes had fewer staffers, but older, experienced ones. IMHO, they really got the best of the kids in my area of coverage, business and economics. The dems just weren't interested enough and simply didn't have the experience.

[Andrea]

122. Well, then, you clearly know what you are talking about.

I guess I've made up my mind against term limits now, thanks to you.

[amandabeech]

131. I have been wrong before.

Even though it seems like we agree on several things, I caution you against taking a position based solely on what I have to write!

[Andrea]

143. You are the first person that I've run into that has

first hand experience on the hill, but no ax to grind. That makes your opinion really valuable on this.

[tinrobot]

55. I love Gore, but it's too late.

As much as I love Gore and would love to see him in the White House, this is not the way he should get there. If it gets to the point where there needs to be a third candidate, the party will be incredibly fractured with little time to heal. On top of that, Gore would have zero fundraising going into the general election.

[nomaco-10]

57. Joe Klein....

Whenever I see him, I always think of Primary Colors. I thought it was a thorough and entertaining inside look at the clintons, the early years.

I really do think the clintons started out with a true desire to bring about change that transitioned easily into a message that inspired alot of americans in the early 90's. But, it was quickly replaced with their stronger desires to advance their own greed and sense of self importance that has left many casualties in their wake. A real american success story that went terribly wrong somewhere along the way. Sad really.

[Andrea]

98. I didn't read the book, but I saw the movie.

I really enjoyed the movie very much. I thought it showed a basic goodness, without glorifying them or cleaning them up at all. I really don't understand what they have done recently. Though, someone on David Gregory's program last night pointed out that compared to what Bill went through, what Barack is dealing with it pretty mild. That might be true. The difference is, that was cross-party and this is within the party. I just can't get behind that.

[RestoreGore]

66. As an Al Gore supporter I would not support this

And there is absolutely NO indication that Mr. Gore would condone it either. So why are people pushing this now? We are only in March and this primary season goes to June. There are other primaries to go, other people to vote, and superdelegates still need to vote as well which didn't seem to bother anyone in previous elections at this point. I would not approve of this tactic at all. It would be a disaster for his work, and his credibility would be ruined as people would believe he was working this behind the scenes the entire time. I cannot believe anyone would continue to push this now especially with all the dissention we are now seeing. I also cannot believe that Mr. Gore would walk in and take a nomination he did not run for. People will say he didn't run in 2004 then because he was too wimpy to go against Bush. Then they will say he was too wimpy to run in 2008 so he worked behind the scenes to get it the easy way while others were doing the work. And let's not even GO to what the media will do to him which will push climate change OFF THE TRACK. So again, if you see this as something good, I don't. If Mr. Gore had decided to run this time, even though I was not for it because of the system we have, it would have been better than this scheme. Democracy is something people will not attribute as a reason for an action like this. You cannot have millions of people coming out to vote and then deny them the people they voted for. So, though I love and respect Mr. Gore immensely and am firmly in his corner when it comes to his endeavors, I would not and cannot support this. And I have a feeling he knows not of it and this is just another attempt by a group of people looking for attention to get noticed.

[DefenseLawyer]

74. It seems to me the only way this would ever fly

is if Sen. Obama got on board with it at the time the deal was brokered and endorsed it, presumably with his name on the ticket. If it is a brokered convention, the party could still do it without him, but it would literally destroy the party.

[Andrea]

99. Exactly right

That's how it would most likely happen. It could possibly happen if all the delegates got on board after the first vote, but they would be unlikely to do that without Obama giving it his blessing. Most likely that would be as part of an agreement putting him on the ticket. That's what the article says, but apparently a lot of people respond to an article without reading it.

[Occam Bandage]

78. Nope. Riots in the streets if that happens, from both camps.

[Andrea]

100. Funny prediction

Considering the tiny number of people that came out to protest when the last two presidential elections were stolen.

[Occam Bandage]

101. Except for the fact that everyone who gives a shit will be packed into one city

for this announcement.

[Andrea]

102. Good point.

Too bad we didn't have that going for us when the elections were stolen.

[depakid]

110. Now there's a post suitable for the poster's avatar!

Bravo!

[Andrea]

118. I'm afraid your humor might be too subtle

for most in this thread, but you've got me giggling.

[mountainvue]

209. They'll be doing it from outside a

five mile radius.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. Has anyone asked AL GORE what he thinks about this? Frankly, if the dude had wanted to run

he would have run.

Believe me, he was my top choice-- but we will have an EXTREMELY solid nominee with Barack Obama, one which will excite and energize the electorate.

I don't think Obama is a "problem" that needs to be "solved". Hillary Clinton needs to realize that she's lost, and bow out gracefully.

[woo me with science]

96. ...

[Buzz Clik]

97. Gore might be the answer to the correct question:

"Who is the least likely big-name Democrat to run for President in 2008?"

[A-Schwarzenegger]

103. I love Al but this is a pile of radioactive catshit that will never happen.

:bluebox: :redbox: :graybox: :daily: :weekly: :tv: :radio: :web: :hi:

[milkyway]

104. Gore/Obama is so 2007.

That was my preference, but that was then and this is now. Al has moved on, and so have we.

[DesertRat]

105. Hmmm...interesting. K&R

[superkia]

106. I dont think Al Gore is what everyone thinks he is?Just my opinion!

[La Coliniere]

115. I agree

NAFTA?......... During those 8 years when Gore had a position of tremendous political power and influence, what exactly did he do for the environment? For working people? Corporations - yes! Military industrial media complex - yes! I know the press hates him and is partially to blame for his loss in 2000, a result of the constant negative characterizations and refusal to retract false statements and skewed reporting (he NEVER said that he invented the internet or discovered Love Canal). Would Mr. Gore be any different if he got back into politics? Many folks are under the notion that he has changed, has REALLY changed. But I can't get over the fact that he wrote "Earth in the Balance" before taking office as VP. Wouldn't you think somebody so passionate about an issue, when finally given the opportunity to GET THINGS DONE, would get something done? Gore did hardly a thing. All talk no action when he could've worked his ass off to influence the things that urgently need to happen if we are to significantly change course and avert environmental catastrophe. Now he's written "The Assault on Reason" another book whose basic thesis is one I can also believe in, but somehow I don't think Gore has it in him to foster substantial political change in this world, for whatever the reason. Trust the tale, not the man.

[Andrea]

119. I hear what you are saying, but

I think the change has been real. The great Move On speech is what really convinced me. And the Assault on Reason book seals the deal for me. Really, who wouldn't change after going through what he did? He really regrets listening to others when it turns out his gut instinct was right on. As far as not taking enough action on environmental issues while the VP, I believe there were agreements between him and Bill that were broken, much like Hillary's health care plan got sold down the river for NAFTA.

[depakid]

109. Wow. Just goes to show that even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes!

The way I see this playing out, it may well be the best hope we have to avoid another disastrous Republican administration.

[Andrea]

120. And another Republican administration would be hugely

disastrous in every way. No doubt about that.

[immoderate]

123. Obama did the hard work. He deserves the nom.

I was not an Obama supporter. But he ran a great campaign. He beat some long odds. He earned it. He deserves it. Let the man rock and roll.


--IMM

[Pastiche423]

129. If Obama gets 2025 delegates

then yes, he does deserve it. But what if he doesn't? W/the way the Clinton machine has showed its ambitious ass for its self, not the country or even the party, I fear that Obama will not be able to garner the 2025.

Then what happens?

[Andrea]

144. Right.

It's impossible for either of them to get 2025 without the super delegates.

[Pastiche423]

152. I know you know that ;-)

but I would like the poster I asked to answer. Emotions are over riding many posters in this thread's ability to look at reality.

The Democratic Party is in a pickle. Neither of the two remaining candidates can reach that magical delegate number.

What is the solution?

[Andrea]

159. And I know you know, too ;-)

I wish people would just look at where we are realistically and think about how to fix this mess.

[immoderate]

188. That's a toughie.

I don't anticipate the super delegates abstaining. Gore would have been my first choice, but I don't think he's running, and I don't think drafting him now solves the problem. Then you'd have to deal with emotions from both camps.

I'm pretty sure the sds will split and that will give it to Obama. That is, barring any extreme event. I'm not crazy about Hillary, but I think she can beat McCain.

--IMM

[Pastiche423]

190. You may be pretty sure that the super delegates will split

and give it to one of the candidates, but no one else seems to be sure.

The question was, what is the solution if they don't?

[immoderate]

203. Something very improbable.

My assumption is that the super delegates will hand it to one of them in June. I give this a 95% shot. If there are not enough super delegates willing to commit by that time, or at least by the convention, I think there are any number of possibilities looking at it from now. It's still five months until the convention. What I might guess now might change every week until then. The Gore scenario might be possible, but what if he endorses one of the candidates?

Consider that there's nobody now that wants this to happen, except maybe Joe Klein. And maybe some dreamers on this board. It's just too much of a long shot.

--IMM

[Pastiche423]

205. "Consider that there's nobody now that wants this to happen..."

Just because you don't, doesn't mean there are not many, many people that DO want Al Gore to be president. I do, for one. And guess what? There is actually an Al Gore forum right on this very site!

Clinton is not going to give up, no matter how many times the math is explained to her. She is the one that is going to cause this primary to have to be decided at the convention.

Btw, I really, really hope that Al Gore does NOT endorse anyone before the convention. If you had read his book, the Assault on Reason, you'd understand.

[immoderate]

206. I'm in chapter three of "Assault..."

It's quite brilliant.

What makes you think he'll get in?

--IMM

[Pastiche423]

210. Where did I say he'll get in?

[HuffleClaw]

126. it could have been the plan all along

and a sneaky good one if you ask me

[Andrea]

145. You are the 2nd person I've run into in the last week

that has suggested that Gore and Obama were planning this from the start. That would be wild, wouldn't it? I wonder if we would ever know?

[balantz]

127. The presidency was stolen from Al Gore with the help of the S.C. in 2000.

I think it would be a perfect solution to seat the man who rightfully should have been president these past two terms.

And while we're at it let's have Edwards for vice-president. They would be a great match for CHANGE. Something to HOPE for to get us out of this sickening and disgraceful mess we have been handed.

[Andrea]

146. Some real justice, finally!

I'd love an Edwards VP slot if it came out that way.

[bhikkhu]

133. Poll Link, and why Klein is an idiot.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

If you take a look at the polls, Obama vs. McCain is about even now. Thats right - more or less tied, a level playing field. Obama is up by some polls, McCain is up by some polls.

So what kind of a person looks at these results then races out in a panic to beg for Gore to save the party and accept a nomination he doesn't even want, shoving aside the incredible work of the winner of our Democratic primaries? All the people who studied the issues, got to know the candidates, came out to meet the candidates, turned out to vote in record numbers, how do you think they will take it if every single candidate that every single one of them voted for is shoved aside, in favor of a hand-picked insider? Republicans have got to be laughing their asses off at this sort of crap.

And all because eight months out polls say our primary leader is tied with theirs...

[Andrea]

147. If we had a primary winner, you would be right

What this is talking about is the increasingly likely result that we won't. We definitely won't have one without the super delegates weighing in.

[bhikkhu]

150. So we count the superdelegate votes, and then we announce a winner.

No problems. Or we find that before the Convention the count of pledged delegates and superdelegates announced for one candidate will be sufficient for the nomination, and then we relax a bit and stop with the desperate speculation.

[Alexander]

134. I'm for Obama but could settle for a Gore/Obama ticket.

Then again, Obama's winning the nomination. I don't really see the point of drafting Gore unless the superdelegates can't decide or want to overturn the will of the voters.

[gauguin57]

138. I hope Al speaks at the Dem. convention. I wanna see a 20-minute standing ovation for the man.

Cuz he deserves it.

[Andrea]

149. I hope so, too. n/t

[Pastiche423]

153. Me too!

[travelingtypist]

155. I want Al Gore to stay a demigod, the Goracle.

2000 wounded him deeply. Let him have his glorious, lovely,
happy, successful life.

The Democratic Party, Howard Dean, Pelosi, Reid, and the rest,
need to find a way to sort out this mess. Leave Gore alone.

[Andrea]

160. I can see what you are saying, but I think

he would agree if asked because he would want to do what is best for the country and the world. That has to take precedence over anyone's personal wishes, including his, in my opinion.

If that doesn't happen, I want him to continue having his glorious, lovely, happy, successful life.

IF that's possible under the fascist regime of John "100 Years War" McCain. :-( I wish there was a smilie that said :incredibly worried: to really capture my mood.

[travelingtypist]

162. He doesn't owe us or the Democratic Party a goddamn thing.

He's already done his time. He's been punished enough.

He's already working full time to avert one of the biggest
disasters we've ever faced. That's plenty. And he doesn't
have to be sullied by the pundits or the Republican Nazis
ever again.

[Andrea]

166. Well, ultimately that's his decision

If I were in that position though, I couldn't turn it down knowing the good I could do for the country and the world. I think he will look at it that way, because his intentions are good. If they offer it to him and he turns it down, we'll never know anyway. Either way, he has my complete respect.

[travelingtypist]

168. I heard Thom Hartmann talk about this a while back.

Hartmann was there a speech or something Hartmann
was at when Gore was asked that question, about
this possibility. Hartmann said that Gore almost
physically blanched, that the pain was still so
real of what happened. That's where I'm coming
from on this.

[Andrea]

171. Interesting.

Do you remember when that was? I'm thinking back to when he was interviewed by CNN in Oslo this past December. He said then he didn't plan to be a candidate again, but if he was it would only be for president. He didn't look upset to me. He looked more like someone who was happy to be in the position where he could choose for himself.

I'm sure the experience of '00 was painful for him. I'm so glad he really came into his own after that. I'll never forgive Daschle and Gephardt for not backing him then.

[travelingtypist]

172. It was either the January 30 or January 31 show.

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/Hartmann.html

I sent Hartmann an email about the comment. I have
no reason to doubt Hartmann's recounting.

[Andrea]

173. Thanks for the link

I wish there was a way to go right to the pertinent section without listening to the whole show. I wish there was a way to know exactly what he was thinking, but he's smart to keep it to himself. Maybe he feels that strongly against it, or maybe he's ambivalent, or maybe Thom misinterpreted. It could be he blanched because he was sick of the question. All we can do is watch what he does and try to surmise from that, I think.

[travelingtypist]

174. Yeah, I don't remember exactly where it was

in the show, or which show. But I read my email to Thom, and
I told Thom I was crying at the story as he told it.

[RestoreGore]

170. Thank you. I couldn't agree more!

If I didn't know any better I would think some really want to force him back into this mess because they are mad at him for spurning their efforts. My God, the man is a Nobel prize recipient doing so much around this world to bring cooperation to avert a true catastrophe, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3070887&mesg_id=3070887 and all people can talk about here regarding him is THIS crap?

[EffieBlack]

158. He is . . .

If the thought of a black or a female president really freaks you out.

[davsand]

161. Gore lost last time he ran.

I see this shit on here ALL the fucking time. I just do not GET it. Al had his shot, he missed, and he's done. He SAYS he's done. He's not IN the race--so WHY are there people on here talking like they think he's gonna swoop in at the 11th hour and "save" the entire Dem party from a fate worse than death--an Obama candidacy.

Sorry, I like Al just fine. He's a good guy. He, however, did not win last time he ran. Yeah, I understand that election was rigged but he ran such a lousy race he made it POSSIBLE for that election to even be close enough to steal. Does nobody REMEMBER this?

Al is not some political mastermind, he's a guy that ran and LOST to a drunk little fuck from Texas that has messed up this entire nation. On another note, never forget the fact Al Gore chose Joe Lieberman as his running mate, and now they are speculating about Holy Joe running as McPain's VP. Lieberman was such a BAD Democrat that he's now in bed with the likes of John McCain--and Gore chose him as his possible VP.

Yeah, Gore was THAT bad.

Obama has won the race and all the DLC fans need to just give it up for this go round.

Gawd, I may vomit.


Laura

[travelingtypist]

163. You need to do some homework before spouting this garbage.

Like the NORC study, just to start.

Don't know what that is? Yep, didn't think so.

[davsand]

165. Feel free to REFUTE anything I said that was not valid.

Gore did not win. He never served as our President, did he? Nope, didn't think so.

I allowed that the elections were rigged, but did it not occur to you that had Gore MAYBE carried his own home state he would not have NEEDED Florida? Had Gore carried a few MORE states the GOP would not have been able to fix that race. Gore lost more states than just Florida, and hanging your hat on some study from UC really does not give you the right to imply I don't know what I'm talking about.

Gore DID have Holy Joe as his running mate. Not too much you can refute about that one.

Anything ELSE?


Laura

[travelingtypist]

167. He got the most votes.

Just because the Rethugs cheated and stole it from him
doesn't refute that fact.

So put that in your bullshit pipe and smoke it.

[skater314159]

179. Yep. HE WON THE POPULAR VOTE. The fucking Repukes STOLE it from him. nt

[davsand]

182. If the POPULAR vote is your sole determination then Obama will be the nominee.

No need for Gore to get dragged into this mess. I'm glad we can avoid a double standard on that aspect of the debate.

BTW, calling "bullshit" is not appropriate even if you disagree with me. You undermine your own credibility with juvenile crap like that. That kind of behavior is exactly why so many people are wondering how DU has turned into such a shithole in the last couple years.

:hi:


Laura

[Andrea]

169. I can't follow your logic

Are you saying that because he only won by a little bit he (and we) deserved to have the election stolen? Sorry, I can't agree with that at all.

Now, he certainly could have run a better campaign if he hadn't listened to his advisers so much. That's certainly true. Picking Joe Lieberman is probably the worst thing he's ever done and I was unhappy about it at the time.

But, he has changed much in the eight years since then. He learned a lot from that. He found his own voice.

If Obama loses to McCain, are you going to castigate him because he ran such a bad campaign he couldn't beat an ancient, delusional war-monger? What if Obama is our nominee and then the Republicans steal it again because he only wins by a little bit? Are you going to throw him under the bus then?

[davsand]

184. No, Andrea, I am not saying he deserved to have the race stolen.

Frankly that stolen race cost him and the rest of the country a great deal. The selection is a blot on our history that will never be erased and we ALL have to live with it and its aftermath for a long time to come.

What I am saying is that when you run for the Presidency it has got to be the top of your form. You have got to bring it or else you need to stay home. Gore needed to bring it and he didn't. He made some pretty bad mistakes in that race (and yes, I am also still pissed at his choice of Lieberman) and he ended up opening the door for the GOP to even be in a position to steal that race.

I'm not saying he needed to be punished I am saying he fell short of the mark last time and I do not want to give him a second chance lest we be forced to endure four more years of the GOP pissing on us all and killing off our kids in illegal wars.

I do not want to see a repeat of that mess again and even if Gore has changed (and I agree with you--I think he has) I just do not trust his savvy enough to support any notion of a "unity" ticket when you have a viable candidate that carries a lot of skills that Gore did not seem to manifest when he was running for President.

Like i said in my original post, I don't dislike Gore. I WILL tell you that had Gore run this time I would have still actively worked for a different candidate.

To address the second part of your post, I honestly think Obama will run a dynamic race as the Dem nominee. I have seen his races here in Illinois and I can tell you that there is no such thing as a passive Obama campaign where he leans on his advisers and ignores his gut.

I can't put it in any sort of defensible terms other than I have seen him motivate a crowd like no other pol I have ever known. I have been at this a while (longer than I like to admit to) and I have NEVER met a candidate like Obama. Mcgovern was amazing and I loved Paul Simon (I did not meet either of them until years after they ran, however.) Hell, I think Dick Durbin is all that AND sliced bread, but Obama is in a completely different league. He can win this election.

YMMV.


Laura

[Andrea]

199. It seems to me that your attitude and tone

changed markedly between your earlier comment and this one. Am I right on that? If so, I'd be interested to know why.

You know, we both want the same outcome. The difference is that I don't have much faith in Obama being able to win (or Clinton for that matter) and you don't have much faith in Gore being able to win. My main reason for doubting that Obama can win is because he has been half of the equation that has led to all this divisiveness in the party. The very qualities that look like inspirational leadership to some, look like a personality cult to others. This may be something he could overcome with experience. Meanwhile, 28% of Clinton voters say they won't vote for Obama and 20% of Obama voters say they won't vote for Clinton, and that's not considering a sizable chunk of people who will not vote for either - let only the independents and the Republicans.

As you said, YMMV. I can say that I agree with you on Paul Simon and I like Dick Durbin a lot, too.

[davsand]

204. My frustration is with the idea that Gore is some savior this time. He's not.

When I made my original comment it was an at large sort of rant about the blind devotion exemplified at times on here. Gore is not a bad man, but he's also not a political Einstein (in my opinion) based on how he ran his first Presidential campaign. No big thing--there are a LOT of pols out there on both sides that are not an Einstein but they still do good things. (This seems to be the nature of humans, I think.)

Gore decided not to run in this election. Gore has said several times he's done with politics. Can't say I blame him--I can't imagine what he has endured--so I just do NOT understand why so many people are out there in DU land writhing in ecstasy about Gore as a "compromise candidate" when there are still two Dems in the race and Gore himself has not put himself on the table. Plus, I have got to say there is going to be outrage Gore and not Obama or Clinton ends up the nominee because that is WHO everybody is fighting about.

You asked some specific questions of me and I tried to answer them as best I could. I figure that is part of the reason any of us come here (to have at least an attempt at a political dialog) so my tone with you was probably a bit different than my original comment or any responses I made to other people who were less sane than you were in your response.

Peace.


Laura

[skater314159]

178. NO. He had his Presidency STOLEN by *. Get it straight! nt

[enough already]

176. No, it can't happen

He asks if Gore is the 'answer', when in fact there is no question. This race is over and Obama has won. Somebody just has to tell Hillary. Klein is a dipshit.

[skater314159]

177. Gore/Obama was my dream ticket...

I would love to have a Nobel Laureate as President - which would be a 180° difference from * !

Gore could help our country join the Kyoto agreements and work for the environment... and Obama could run in eight years for Prez!

I looove the thought of eight years of Gore followed by eight years of Obama!

[TriMetFan]

180. Hey Andrea...

I read all your replies on this post and I have to agree with you on this 100%. Even though I'm a Hillary supporter I would re-vote for President Gore anytime of the day, even if Obama or Hillary were his V.P. Our two Democratic candidates are screwing up our Democratic Party and our leaders are not helping either. There is one thing you posted about the rules and that the Party is going to follow the rules. Yep, you are right, rules are rules and if the "Leaders" of The Democratic Party are so willing to follow the rules on MI and FL, in the end Obama and Hillary won't have enough to win. So I think you are right about them Drafting Gore. And since Gore love's our Nation and the World he would do the right thing.

[Andrea]

202. Thanks, TriMetFan

Since you agree with me, you must be brilliant. :) Seriously, though, I appreciate your support. I think almost all of us really want what's best for the nation, and the world, but some people are really emotionally involved with their chosen candidate. Fortunately, when the time comes for agreements to be made, I think we can count on the candidates to explain things to their supporters so that they will understand.

[Strawman]

183. Last line of article: "made ya look!"

This is absurd rumor-mongering.

[damndude]

187. no one really takes this seriously do they?!

i can't believe all the replies from a hypothetical that has no chance of happening. this was posited by the man who brought us the book of true lies that was primary colors and hid being anonymous. this is fire starter on charcoal. if there were a gore pairing it would be he as veep in order to legitimize the nominee and inoculate him from attacks from within the party. it's be like having you dad escort you to school. and honestly, i don't see gore lending his credibility to the clinton's after their treatment of him in his campaign season.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

193. Delusions die hard.

:-)

[shayes51]

207. I'd love Al to be the nominee if

it is not Hillary.