"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust ..."

[TahitiNut]

Article VI

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

:eyes:

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled feces-flinging.

[MADem]

1. Ha...tell that to Mitt Romney!!! He's convinced he flunked that test! nt

[TahitiNut]

2. It seems to me that the "Wright furor" steps over the line.

After all, there's NOTHING in the Constitution that says that the adult offspring of candidates are "out of bounds" ... but Chelsea is. Some (Clinton) claim that we can't choose our relatives but we can choose our church. But the issue is cultural and religious ... and we DO have some guidance on that. I regard the intrusion into religion and religious activities unethical. Indeed, when I compare Reverend Wright to Father Coughlin, Reverend Wright doesn't come close to being on my political radar.

[H2O Man]

3. I was kicked

out of catecism as a young teen-ager.

[TahitiNut]

4. (Heh!) I was in high school when I took catechism. Lutheran. Missouri Synod.

It was so I could play on the church basketball team with friends. :silly:

As a "good Lutheran" ... and a teacher in a boy's Catholic high school ... I led the rosary before class. Ironic.
I guess a year with the Jesuits in college was enough to "qualify" me. (The Salesians were behind me.)
:rofl:

I gotta say I had the cream of the crop as teachers, though. My pastor for catechism later became president of the Missouri Synod. He was VERY bright ... and personally dedicated. At the same time, he had a superb sense of humor. The Jebbies were outstanding. I spent weekend time on "personal retreat" the grounds of a Franciscan monastery in my younger years ... and found a couple of monks who were GREAT conversationalists. Lots of thoughtful time. Later in my life, I found Buddhist monks for intercourse. Good brain food.

[H2O Man]

5. I was forced

to attend the Catholic version. One day the lady teaching the class heard a couple kids talking about flying saucers when she came in the room. She said that there was no such thing as UFOs. I asked how she knew this? There is no mention of them in the bible, she said. And how did the prophet Elijah leave earth, I asked. A flaming chariot, she replied.

After an uncomfortable but brief silence, the other kids burst out laughing. My father was called, and it was the end of my career there.

[dsc]

6. Once a candidate uses religion to justify his or her public positions

as Obama repeatedly has, then his religion becomes our business. I happen not to have too much problem with Wright until today's stuff, but the notion his religion isn't my business is absurd. Incidently, so is Hillary's and McCain's.

[stillcool]

7. His religion..

has always been in question. He has been forced to claim his religion. Remember this?

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail
A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out. "Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

Kerrey Apologizes to Obama Over Remark
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4031436
Kerrey's mention of Obama's middle name and his Muslim roots raised eyebrows because they are also used as part of a smear campaign on the Internet that falsely suggests Obama is a Muslim who wants to bring jihad to the United States.
Obama is a Christian.
The Clinton campaign has already fired two volunteer county coordinators in Iowa for forwarding hoax e-mails with the debunked claim. Last week, a national Clinton campaign co-chairman resigned for raising questions about whether Obama's teenage drug use could be used against him, so Kerrey's comments raised questions about whether the Clinton campaign might be using another high-profile surrogate to smear Obama.

If one were interested in the 'stuff' of the Pastor's Sermons, I would think they would read the sermons. That is obviously not the case.

"They attack the one man with their hate and their shower of weapons. But he is like some rock which stretches into the vast sea and which, exposed to the fury of the winds and beaten
against by the waves, endures all the violence."--- Virgil

[dsc]

8. and that was wrong

but this is an entirely different matter. Obama repeatedly justifies his opposition to same gender marriage equity by use of his religion. So it is entirely fair to investigate just what that religion is.

[msallied]

10. To be fair, there IS no other real opposition to same sex marriage

but a religious one, because by its nature, marriage is a spiritual thing. The only people who would be offended by it are those who look at it as an affront to their spiritual beliefs. But Obama never said he would block legislation of gay marriage based on his spiritual beliefs, and that's what separates him from the Republicans on this issue.

[stillcool]

11. I have not seen where he said that...

Support Full Civil Unions and Federal Rights for LGBT Couples
Barack Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as
married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal
health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights. Obama also believes we need
to fully repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal
legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex
couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions.
Oppose a Constitutional Ban on Same-Sex Marriage
Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment, which would have defined marriage as between
a man and a woman and prevented judicial extension of marriage-like rights to same-sex or other unmarried
couples.

Obama Seeks U.S. Senate seat
by TRACY BAIM
2004-02-04
--------------
WCT: Have you ever experienced any backlash, in terms of your re-election, when you supported gay issues?

Obama: I have not. I’m really pleased with the cultural shift that’s taken place just in the last decade in our society. I think that Chicago, and Illinois, in a lot of ways have been leaders in the country, particularly in the Democratic Party, where I think there has been a lot of progress made. We don’t have a lot of gay-bashing taking place within the Democratic Party, from any camp.

WCT: One of the things that supporters of the state gay-rights bill have been saying is that some of the supporters of certain Senate candidates, yourself included, were not coming out full force for the Senate bill this time. Do you feel there’s a litmus test for people whose supporters aren’t fully 100%?

Obama: You raise an important point. Although your initial question was whether there’s been a backlash against me, I see none of that within the Democratic Party. I think there are still geographical differences in terms of attitude toward gay and lesbian issues. I think downstate, there is a difference. On the Southwest Side, the Northwest Side of Chicago, where the Catholic Church is still a significant institution, there is a difference. And, to a certain extent, within the African-American community, because of the strong affiliation with the church, there is still some resistance.

My attitude is that candidates for office, persons in elected office, are ultimately responsible for what they say and what they do. I think the question is, are they forceful, clear, strong advocates on behalf of these issues. Are they doing everything that they can to lobby on behalf of these issues. They’re not always going to be successful, even within the Democratic Party. And there are going to be people in this U.S. Senate race who support me who may not feel the same way I do on gay and lesbian issues. That’s going to be true of the other candidates as well. The important thing is, what do people see me saying publicly, how am I acting publicly, how am I voting publicly. Because what I do think is unacceptable is saying one thing in one forum, and saying something else in another. What you do have to expect is consistency, and not playing to a particular audience.

WCT: Can you talk about the supporters of you who do not support the gay-rights bill . Is it your sense that the choice they are making is a moral choice for them, or is it a political choice?

Obama: The overwhelming majority of my supporters not only support SB 101 but are co-sponsors. There are going to be some of my supporters who may not have voted for it yet ... . I think it probably varies. I think there are some downstate Democrats who are just making a political calculation, that this is really a tough one. That they will experience significant political backlash in districts that are closely aligned, and in which the Republican Party is very much using this as a wedge issue. I think there may be other supporters of mine who are still asking questions about the contents of the bill. I’m confident that if we can get this to the floor, and get close, that I can change some minds.
www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=3931

[dsc]

12. among other places he said it at the HRC forum

[stillcool]

13. The HRC Forum?

[dsc]

14. Human Rights Campaign

largest gay and lesbian rights organization. They had a forum in the very early stages of the primary.

[stillcool]

15. I couldn't find it...

I found this...
http://www.hrc.org/documents/Questionnaire_ReportCard-ClintonObama.pdf

Democratic Candidates Address Gay Rights Issues
First-Ever Televised Presidential Forum Underlines Increasing Importance of Community in Elections

By Perry Bacon Jr.
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, August 10, 2007; A07

LOS ANGELES, Aug. 9 -- At the first-ever televised presidential forum devoted to gay rights issues, the Democratic front-runners, Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) and Barack Obama (Ill.), were sharply questioned on why they do not support same-sex marriage, while the two joined the other candidates in backing civil unions and the end of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays in the military.
Obama said it is less important to focus on the semantics of the word "marriage" than to focus on equal rights, and Clinton -- responding to a comment by singer Melissa Etheridge that gays were "thrown under the bus" during Bill Clinton's administration -- said "I am a leader now" on gay rights.

At the two-hour event in West Hollywood, Obama was asked several times why he would not back same-sex marriage, and he pledged to ensure that all same-sex couples have the same rights as married couples, the stance adopted by most of the Democrats.

"Semantics may be important to some," he said, adding that if gay couples had equal rights, "then my sense is that's enormous progress."
-------------------------------
When pressed on gay marriage, Edwards said, "My position on same-sex marriage has not changed." He then used the question to challenge the Clinton administration on its approach to gay rights -- and by implication to challenge his rival, Sen. Clinton. " 'Don't ask, don't tell' is not just wrong now, it was wrong when it began," Edwards said.

Clinton took a stance similar to Edwards's and Obama's, not backing marriage but saying she wanted same-sex couples to have equal rights. She also said states were making better progress on gay rights than the federal government.

"I've also been a very strong supporter of letting the states maintain their jurisdiction over marriage," Clinton said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/09/AR2007080902331_pf.html

and this...

http://visiblevote08.logoonline.com/2007/10/25/human-rights-campaign-gvies-obama-a-spanking/

My. My. My. Look at the HRC. They too are taking Barack Obama to the woodshed for including preacher man Rev. Donnie McClurkin on the Obama gospel tour in South Carolina.

“I spoke with Sen. Barack Obama today and expressed to him our community’s disappointment for his decision to continue to remain associated with Rev. McClurkin, an anti-gay preacher who states the need to ‘break the curse of homosexuality,’” HRC big man Joe Solmonese says in a press release from yesterday. Don’t you love it when people you never voted for use the phrase “our community” but I digress.

Some accuse HRC of really being all about HRC, Hillary Rodham Clinton that is. The charge is HRC is simply carrying the water for the Clinton camp by throwing a fit about the connection between Obama and McClurkin.

I’m going to give Obama a couple moments of props. He could have pulled a politician, pushed McClurkin to the curb, blamed some overworked volunteer, and spun it like crazy. Instead McClurkin is staying and Obama is adding an openly gay minister, the Rev. Andy Sidden, on the program. Also his press release made clear he and McClurkin don’t agree on gay stuff.

However, as others have noted, who planned this lineup? Does that person still have a gig? This whole thing could have been handled much better. Barack brother, let’s talk. I’m no genius but I can give you better advice than the person who pushed McClurkin. I’m in the book.
http://visiblevote08.logoonline.com/2007/10/25/human-rights-campaign-gvies-obama-a-spanking/

[dsc]

16. Here is Pew's take

with a quote from Obama's book.

http://pewforum.org/religion08/compare.php?Issue=Gay_Marriage

Obama says that he believes "marriage is between a man and a woman" but he wrote in The Audacity of Hope that he remains "open to the possibility that my unwillingness to support gay marriage is misguided ... I may have been infected with society's prejudices and predilections and attributed them to God." He supports granting civil unions for gay couples and opposed a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. In March 2007, Obama initially dodged questions about the morality of homosexuality. He later went on to say on national television that he did not believe homosexuals are immoral.

If you go to the link there are additional links in the paragraph.

[stillcool]

20. but that was something he wrote...

in his book...and said..."I may have been infected with society's prejudices and predilections and attributed them to God"
I have seen nothing about him stating that his position has anything to do with religion. I must be missing something. but..never mind...thanks for the information!

As Obama left a firefighters convention last week, a Newsday reporter asked him whether he thought homosexuality was immoral.

Obama's first answer was: "I think traditionally the Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman has restricted his public comments to military matters. That's probably a good tradition to follow."

Asked a second time, he said: "I think the question here is whether somebody is willing to sacrifice for their country."

When asked a third time, the senator ignored the question, signed an autograph, posed for a photo and then jumped into a Lincoln Town Car, according to a report by Newsday.

The exchange left some gays and lesbians cold, shocked that someone they trusted would not immediately defend them.

Michael Bauer, a top Democratic fundraiser in Chicago and gay activist, considers himself one of Obama's top gay backers nationally. But he said the senator's initial responses to the morality question left him shaken and disappointed. Bauer declined to comment for the record on whether Obama's stance would hurt his fundraising among gays, lesbians and progressives.

"This is an educational opportunity and I hope that the senator would appoint a gay advisory group to provide advice to him and the campaign on issues," he said.

Some gay and lesbian activists suggested over the weekend that Obama needed to make a definitive statement on the question--in his own voice--by Monday, or risk more vocal protests against his campaign.
On a fundraising committee conference call that day, former state Sen. Bill Marovitz asked how the campaign planned to address the matter because he had continued to hear complaints. "I said it needs to be something that is dealt with directly," he said.

But Marovitz, who is married to Playboy Enterprises CEO Christie Hefner, disputes that Obama was trying to dodge the initial question. He said he believes Obama was just trying to get into a car without launching into a full-blown discussion of gay and lesbian issues.

"He has repeatedly in speeches . . . made his position clear on the importance of equality for everyone," Marovitz said. "I don't think anyone in the gay or lesbian community should have any doubt where Barack stands on this issue."

[dsc]

21. Um God

that is pretty much the whole point of religion, is it not?

[stillcool]

22. your basing your statement..

that Obama has brought his religion into the campaign because of a sentence he wrote in his book?

[dsc]

24. see the other response

but yes, I do tend to hold people responsible for the words they write as well as what they say. I am sort of funny that way.

[dsc]

23. Here is his debate with Keyes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG5u04Gbg0A&NR=1

[stillcool]

25. Okay...so...

you are basing your statement that Senator Obama brought religion into "This Campaign" because in his Senate Race in 2004 he said that "marriage" was a religious rite performed between a man and a woman. Is that correct?

[dsc]

26. Did you listen to the entire answer?

His reason for opposing gay marriage is his religion. He directly said it.

[stillcool]

27. Yes. He definitely said that...

his reason for not supporting gay 'marriage' was his faith....in 2004. Has any other candidate at any time in their life said the same thing? Is his position different from any other candidate..either than Dennis? Does Hillary's book mention anything about her thoughts on religion and marriage? Did she say something when she was First Lady in Arkansas that might not jive with her opinion today?

[dsc]

28. If you read my original post

I stated, in clear, unambiguous words, that Hillary's religion was equally fair game. So you can bring up other politicians until the cows come home and give birth to aliens, it won't change the fact his religion is relevent because he chose to base his public policy upon his religious beliefs.

[stillcool]

29. No. In this Primary season..

the only one that is bringing up Obama's faith in correlation to his position on gay rights is you. That is why you had to go back to his Senate Race to find a mention of it. If this is the reason for your voting for another candidate that is fine. However, it is no excuse to persecute Reverend Wright, or make him an issue in this campaign.

[dsc]

30. There are several DU people who have supplied the quotes

not just me. He used in 2004, and did so again in 2008, religion to justify his position. Incidently, those of you defending him aren't even on the same page, a different Obama supporters justifies it by stating there isn't another reason to oppose gay marriage. Incidently I see you still fail to acknowledge the fact I specificly mention Hillary's religion in my post.

[stillcool]

31. I fail to see how you can justify the ..

public demonization of Reverend Wright based on a statement Senator Obama made regarding his position on gay marriage during his Senate Race. You mention Hillary's religion, but you don't mention your investigation of her past and whether she has ever mentioned faith or religion in her explanation of why she does not approve of gay marriage. I do not know who Hillary's priest/minister/rabbi or Pastor is, nor do I care. And you are correct. I am on no one's page. Nor am I "defending" his position on gay marriage. My problem is how you justify the degradation and vilification of the life of a 67 year old man.

[LWolf]

9. You nailed that one. n/t

[tritsofme]

17. As long as Congress isn't imposing a religious test on candidates, I fail to see your point.

Citizens can place whatever sort of test they wish on the candidates they vote for.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. A test for sanity would be a desirable amendment.

Which would disqualify most candidates likely to run for office.

Too bad they can't add one for Human Decency.

[Swamp Rat]

19. k&r

:D